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Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: I Need to Clarify What I Mean by KhazarianConnection

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  • KRUPA
    I have included article from Wikipedia, as it quote known and new findings. About Hazara people; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hazara_people ... Ova poruka
    Message 1 of 10 , Jun 17, 2008
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      I have included article from Wikipedia, as it quote known and new
      findings.

      About Hazara people;
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hazara_people
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    • Rebekah Canada
      Hi, That is High-Resolution SNPs and Microsatellite Haplotypes Point to a Single, Recent Entry of Native American Y Chromosomes into the Americas Stephen L.
      Message 2 of 10 , Jun 17, 2008
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        Hi,

        That is
        High-Resolution SNPs and Microsatellite Haplotypes Point to a Single,
        Recent Entry of Native American Y Chromosomes into the Americas
        Stephen L. Zegura , Tatiana M. Karafet , Lev A. Zhivotovsky , and
        Michael F. Hammer
        MBE Advance Access published on January 1, 2004, DOI 10.1093/molbev/msh009.
        Mol Biol Evol 21: 164-175.

        The free text is here.
        http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/21/1/164

        --
        Peace and Light,
        Rebekah
      • Dave Howard
        Barry, I have searched and searched and as far as I can find there is no study that attempts to define the yDNA makeup of the Khazarians. I have found several
        Message 3 of 10 , Jun 18, 2008
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          Barry,

          I have searched and searched and as far as I can find there is no
          study that attempts to define the yDNA makeup of the Khazarians.

          I have found several references that say this would be an excellent
          future project.

          Additionally, when Khazar crumbled as a nation it merged with the
          Maygars and many of those people are in Hungary today. Many Hungarian
          Jewish people are modern descendants of those Khazars. There are still
          place names and Khazarian words in place in those areas.

          Khazarian apparently were like the inhabitants of the Caucasus
          mountains area, i.e. stocky build, light skin, red hair and light
          colored eyes.

          Forgetting about Haplogroup Q, I know many Ashkenazi Jewish people who
          have that build, skin, hair and eye color. In fact, that is what I
          look like.

          Dave


          --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, Barryzwick@... wrote:
          >
          >
          > Hello, Comrades,
          >
          > I have been under the impression that, since we have no Khazar DNA
          in any
          > database, we must rely on matches with neighboring peoples to
          determine whether
          > there is a demonstrable relationship between us and the Khazars.
          >
          > Those neighboring peoples include Georgians, Azeris, Armenians and
          Chechens.
          >
          > Does Haplotype Q occur frequently among these people? Does anyone know?
          >
          > Thanks.
          >
          >
          > Barry Zwick in Los Angeles
          >
          >
          > In a message dated 6/15/2008 1:23:59 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
          > mladen.krupa@... writes:
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > I am glad to see this further explanation from Dave.
          >
          > Well, I wanted to say that if we dont share mutation for Q1b it
          > will not disapprove Khazarian origin.
          > That is because it is normal that always there was a mixture of
          > population, including mixture of Q's (some will share this
          > "additional" mutation, some will not).
          > But, also as pointed by Dave earlier and now, and me somwhere in
          > the middle, we cannot look only on SNP's as they emerged
          > thousands of years of ago. Haplotypes will show us more recent
          > connection, even if we will not share mutation for Q1b
          > classification.
          >
          > I strongly believe that our Y-chromosome is of the Gok-Turk and
          > then Khazarian origin, and from maternal side we will share
          > Israelite origin (that is why we (some of us) have Levit
          > tradition).
          >
          > I will conclude this communication for today with one also
          > earlier mentioned fact: we are the only representatives of
          > Mongolic Race in Ashkenazi. There is no others; C,O..
          > Just we-the Q's.
          > It is very significant fact, as this truth separate us from any
          > Middle Eastern, or European group or race.
          > And also (as pointed earlier) because rulers of the Gok-Turk and
          > Khazarian Empire (Jewish Converts) are represented as people of
          > Mongolic Race. That exclude R1a, and R1a1, as well as other R's
          > as second non-israelite haplogroup.
          > It is just a leading, but I find all this far too much similar to
          > be mere coincidence.
          >
          > And for Mr.Biondo's interesting writing; we are all descendants
          > of people from Eastern African soil.
          >
          > Alfred
          >
          > Citiram Dave Howard <_dshoward@..._ (mailto:dshoward@...) >:
          >
          > > Prof. Krupa is correct that there is evidence that there was a
          > > Khazarian conversion and some of their DNA may have entered the
          > > Ashkenazi gene
          > > pool.
          > >
          > > This is not inconsistent with my point. We have no disagreement.
          > >
          > > My point is that the Khazars are not necessarily the source of our
          > > Haplogroup-Q Y-Chromosome. That they may have provided some of
          our DNA
          > > does not mean that they are also the source of our yDNA.
          > >
          > > If Haplogroup-Q yDNA was in the Khazarian group it will
          > > be interesting to see if they had the M378 SNP mutation. It will be
          > > interesting to see if we really have it as well.
          > >
          > > One does suspect the Khazars as a possible source in that our common
          > > ancestor lived within the last 1,000 years. However, his
          appearance may
          > > or may not coincide with the Khazarian period.
          > >
          > > That we may all share a common ancestor within the last 1,000
          years is
          > > based on our STRs and not our SNPs. I believe this is what Prof. Kupa
          > > means by "New DNA" vs. "Old DNA." The STR mutations are recent
          events.
          > > Our SNP mutations took place thousands of years ago.
          > >
          > > You may find the Khazarian links Prof. Krupa provided to be
          interesting,
          > > as I
          > > did.
          > >
          > > At the same time make sure you read the excellent Wikipedia article
          > > that discusses the Khazars including the controversy caused by the
          > > book The Thirteenth Tribe as well as the current anti-semitic theory
          > > that is popular among Arab states today.
          > >
          > > _http://en.wikipediahttp://en.http://_
          > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazars)
          > > <_http://en.wikipediahttp://en.http://_
          > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazars) >
          > >
          > > Here is a brief snippet from the Wikipedia article. (I strongly
          > > recommend reading the whole article at the link. The referenced
          > > footnotes are in the full article.)
          > >
          > > The National Academy of Science study referred to below is
          included in
          > > our "Files" section entitled "Jewish and non-Jewish Middle Easterners
          > > same yDNA pool.pdf." I encourage you to look it over.
          > >
          > > DNA Evidence
          > >
          > > Most Jews, including Ashkenazi Jews, do not exhibit the oriental
          > > features of the Khazars, who were likely of Central Asian Turkish
          > > origin. Modern DNA studies on the Y chromosome of Jews worldwide have
          > > also discredited the Khazar origin theory for the vast majority of
          > > Jews, including the Ashkenazi.
          > >
          > > A study published by the National Academy of Sciences found that "The
          > > results support the hypothesis that the paternal gene pools of Jewish
          > > communities from Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East descended
          > > from a common Middle Eastern ancestral population, and suggest that
          > > most Jewish communities have remained relatively isolated from
          > > neighboring non-Jewish communities during and after the Diaspora."
          > > [2]. Researchers express surprise at the remarkable genetic
          uniformity
          > > they found among modern Jews, no matter where the diaspora has become
          > > dispersed around the world. Contradicting the "mongrel" theory, DNA
          > > demonstrated substantially less inter-marriage among Jews over the
          > > last 3000 years than found in other populations.
          > >
          > > "The results accord with Jewish history and tradition and refute
          > > theories like those holding that Jewish communities consist mostly of
          > > converts from other faiths, or that they are descended from the
          > > Khazars, a medieval Turkish tribe that adopted Judaism." [3] [43]
          > >
          > > Morever, "The analysis provides genetic witness that these
          communities
          > > have, to a remarkable extent, retained their biological identity
          > > separate from their host populations, evidence of relatively little
          > > intermarriage or conversion into Judaism over the centuries." Id. And
          > > another finding, paradoxical but unsurprising, is that by the
          > > yardstick of the Y chromosome, the world's Jewish communities are
          > > closely related to Syrians and Palestinians[ closely related to
          > > are descended from a common ancestral population that inhabited the
          > > Middle East some four thousand years ago. Id.
          > >
          > > This study found that "The extremely close affinity of Jewish and
          > > non-Jewish Middle Eastern populations observed ... supports the
          > > hypothesis of a common Middle Eastern origin.",[45] as does the
          > > mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) of at least 40% of the current Ashkenazi
          > > population.[ population.[<WBR>19] So although Khazars could possibly
          > > into the modern Jewish population as we know it today, it is unlikely
          > > that they formed a large percentage of the ancestors of modern
          Jews.[46]
          > >
          > >
          > > Dave
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          > ---------------------------------<WBR>---------<WBR>- T - C o m
          ----------
          > Ova poruka poslana je upotrebom T-Com Webmail usluge
          > Uzivajte u shoppingu ne napustajuci udobnost svoga doma!
          > _http://shopping.http://sho_ (http://shopping.tportal.hr/)
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > **************Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's
          Best
          > 2008. (http://citysbest.aol.com?ncid=aolacg00050000000102)
          >
        • KRUPA
          Dear Dave, You have pointed several interesting things. My grandfather was very short man - 162 cm only, like his brother and sister (buried alive in Dachau),
          Message 4 of 10 , Jun 18, 2008
          • 0 Attachment
            Dear Dave,

            You have pointed several interesting things.
            My grandfather was very short man - 162 cm only, like his brother
            and sister (buried alive in Dachau), very strong builded (pre-war
            amateur champion in boxing of Poland), round head, thin lipses,
            very white skin, dark-blue eyes. Something like blue asian.
            Later generations are taller, but not too tall, still white
            skinned, strong builded.
            My sister looked in chilhood like Chinese. I have two sisters and
            brother and we all was blonde up to some age.

            I have several Hungarian Jews and converts to Christianity, in my
            exact match and near exact match lists.
            But main direction is to todays Ukraine (western Khazaria).

            Dr.Greenspan told me that it will be very difficult to find
            usable DNA in Khazarian graves, due to local climate. And that
            actually nobody is planning to undertake research in that field,
            what is odd situation for my understanding of this matter.

            Allesandro,

            Capital letters was only to underline my idea. Nothing else. As
            matter in fact I didnt write so much in English for years now!
            I cannot explain why there is no other Asiatic haplogroups in
            Ashkenazi community. As You, I can only predict or assume what
            can be reason for such state in Ashkenazi genetic pool.
            But, I am ,after all taken in consideration,pretty much convinced
            that we are from Khazaria.
            Most of us, at least.

            One hypothesis; maybe we are direct descendants of the Jewish
            Imperial family of Khazaria, not of wider ruling class? Maybe
            that is why statues shows Mongolic features? Who knows what will
            come on surface in future!
            We can only make hypothesis by now, for such statement.

            Regards,

            Alfred




            Citiram Dave Howard <dshoward@...>:

            > Barry,
            >
            > I have searched and searched and as far as I can find there is no
            > study that attempts to define the yDNA makeup of the Khazarians.
            >
            > I have found several references that say this would be an excellent
            > future project.
            >
            > Additionally, when Khazar crumbled as a nation it merged with the
            > Maygars and many of those people are in Hungary today. Many Hungarian
            > Jewish people are modern descendants of those Khazars. There are still
            > place names and Khazarian words in place in those areas.
            >
            > Khazarian apparently were like the inhabitants of the Caucasus
            > mountains area, i.e. stocky build, light skin, red hair and light
            > colored eyes.
            >
            > Forgetting about Haplogroup Q, I know many Ashkenazi Jewish people who
            > have that build, skin, hair and eye color. In fact, that is what I
            > look like.
            >
            > Dave
            >
            >
            > --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, Barryzwick@... wrote:
            >>
            >>
            >> Hello, Comrades,
            >>
            >> I have been under the impression that, since we have no Khazar DNA
            > in any
            >> database, we must rely on matches with neighboring peoples to
            > determine whether
            >> there is a demonstrable relationship between us and the Khazars.
            >>
            >> Those neighboring peoples include Georgians, Azeris, Armenians and
            > Chechens.
            >>
            >> Does Haplotype Q occur frequently among these people? Does anyone know?
            >>
            >> Thanks.
            >>
            >>
            >> Barry Zwick in Los Angeles
            >>
            >>
            >> In a message dated 6/15/2008 1:23:59 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
            >> mladen.krupa@... writes:
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >> I am glad to see this further explanation from Dave.
            >>
            >> Well, I wanted to say that if we dont share mutation for Q1b it
            >> will not disapprove Khazarian origin.
            >> That is because it is normal that always there was a mixture of
            >> population, including mixture of Q's (some will share this
            >> "additional" mutation, some will not).
            >> But, also as pointed by Dave earlier and now, and me somwhere in
            >> the middle, we cannot look only on SNP's as they emerged
            >> thousands of years of ago. Haplotypes will show us more recent
            >> connection, even if we will not share mutation for Q1b
            >> classification.
            >>
            >> I strongly believe that our Y-chromosome is of the Gok-Turk and
            >> then Khazarian origin, and from maternal side we will share
            >> Israelite origin (that is why we (some of us) have Levit
            >> tradition).
            >>
            >> I will conclude this communication for today with one also
            >> earlier mentioned fact: we are the only representatives of
            >> Mongolic Race in Ashkenazi. There is no others; C,O..
            >> Just we-the Q's.
            >> It is very significant fact, as this truth separate us from any
            >> Middle Eastern, or European group or race.
            >> And also (as pointed earlier) because rulers of the Gok-Turk and
            >> Khazarian Empire (Jewish Converts) are represented as people of
            >> Mongolic Race. That exclude R1a, and R1a1, as well as other R's
            >> as second non-israelite haplogroup.
            >> It is just a leading, but I find all this far too much similar to
            >> be mere coincidence.
            >>
            >> And for Mr.Biondo's interesting writing; we are all descendants
            >> of people from Eastern African soil.
            >>
            >> Alfred
            >>
            >> Citiram Dave Howard <_dshoward@..._ (mailto:dshoward@...) >:
            >>
            >> > Prof. Krupa is correct that there is evidence that there was a
            >> > Khazarian conversion and some of their DNA may have entered the
            >> > Ashkenazi gene
            >> > pool.
            >> >
            >> > This is not inconsistent with my point. We have no disagreement.
            >> >
            >> > My point is that the Khazars are not necessarily the source of our
            >> > Haplogroup-Q Y-Chromosome. That they may have provided some of
            > our DNA
            >> > does not mean that they are also the source of our yDNA.
            >> >
            >> > If Haplogroup-Q yDNA was in the Khazarian group it will
            >> > be interesting to see if they had the M378 SNP mutation. It will be
            >> > interesting to see if we really have it as well.
            >> >
            >> > One does suspect the Khazars as a possible source in that our common
            >> > ancestor lived within the last 1,000 years. However, his
            > appearance may
            >> > or may not coincide with the Khazarian period.
            >> >
            >> > That we may all share a common ancestor within the last 1,000
            > years is
            >> > based on our STRs and not our SNPs. I believe this is what Prof. Kupa
            >> > means by "New DNA" vs. "Old DNA." The STR mutations are recent
            > events.
            >> > Our SNP mutations took place thousands of years ago.
            >> >
            >> > You may find the Khazarian links Prof. Krupa provided to be
            > interesting,
            >> > as I
            >> > did.
            >> >
            >> > At the same time make sure you read the excellent Wikipedia article
            >> > that discusses the Khazars including the controversy caused by the
            >> > book The Thirteenth Tribe as well as the current anti-semitic theory
            >> > that is popular among Arab states today.
            >> >
            >> > _http://en.wikipediahttp://en.http://_
            >> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazars)
            >> > <_http://en.wikipediahttp://en.http://_
            >> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazars) >
            >> >
            >> > Here is a brief snippet from the Wikipedia article. (I strongly
            >> > recommend reading the whole article at the link. The referenced
            >> > footnotes are in the full article.)
            >> >
            >> > The National Academy of Science study referred to below is
            > included in
            >> > our "Files" section entitled "Jewish and non-Jewish Middle Easterners
            >> > same yDNA pool.pdf." I encourage you to look it over.
            >> >
            >> > DNA Evidence
            >> >
            >> > Most Jews, including Ashkenazi Jews, do not exhibit the oriental
            >> > features of the Khazars, who were likely of Central Asian Turkish
            >> > origin. Modern DNA studies on the Y chromosome of Jews worldwide have
            >> > also discredited the Khazar origin theory for the vast majority of
            >> > Jews, including the Ashkenazi.
            >> >
            >> > A study published by the National Academy of Sciences found that "The
            >> > results support the hypothesis that the paternal gene pools of Jewish
            >> > communities from Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East descended
            >> > from a common Middle Eastern ancestral population, and suggest that
            >> > most Jewish communities have remained relatively isolated from
            >> > neighboring non-Jewish communities during and after the Diaspora."
            >> > [2]. Researchers express surprise at the remarkable genetic
            > uniformity
            >> > they found among modern Jews, no matter where the diaspora has become
            >> > dispersed around the world. Contradicting the "mongrel" theory, DNA
            >> > demonstrated substantially less inter-marriage among Jews over the
            >> > last 3000 years than found in other populations.
            >> >
            >> > "The results accord with Jewish history and tradition and refute
            >> > theories like those holding that Jewish communities consist mostly of
            >> > converts from other faiths, or that they are descended from the
            >> > Khazars, a medieval Turkish tribe that adopted Judaism." [3] [43]
            >> >
            >> > Morever, "The analysis provides genetic witness that these
            > communities
            >> > have, to a remarkable extent, retained their biological identity
            >> > separate from their host populations, evidence of relatively little
            >> > intermarriage or conversion into Judaism over the centuries." Id. And
            >> > another finding, paradoxical but unsurprising, is that by the
            >> > yardstick of the Y chromosome, the world's Jewish communities are
            >> > closely related to Syrians and Palestinians[ closely related to
            >> > are descended from a common ancestral population that inhabited the
            >> > Middle East some four thousand years ago. Id.
            >> >
            >> > This study found that "The extremely close affinity of Jewish and
            >> > non-Jewish Middle Eastern populations observed ... supports the
            >> > hypothesis of a common Middle Eastern origin.",[45] as does the
            >> > mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) of at least 40% of the current Ashkenazi
            >> > population.[ population.[<WBR>19] So although Khazars could possibly
            >> > into the modern Jewish population as we know it today, it is unlikely
            >> > that they formed a large percentage of the ancestors of modern
            > Jews.[46]
            >> >
            >> >
            >> > Dave
            >> >
            >> >
            >> >
            >>
            >> ---------------------------------<WBR>---------<WBR>- T - C o m
            > ----------
            >> Ova poruka poslana je upotrebom T-Com Webmail usluge
            >> Uzivajte u shoppingu ne napustajuci udobnost svoga doma!
            >> _http://shopping.http://sho_ (http://shopping.tportal.hr/)
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >> **************Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's
            > Best
            >> 2008. (http://citysbest.aol.com?ncid=aolacg00050000000102)
            >>
            >
            >
            >


            ---------------------- T - C o m - - W e b m a i l ----------------------
            Ova poruka poslana je upotrebom T-Com Webmail usluge
            Uzivajte u shoppingu ne napustajuci udobnost svoga doma!
            http://shopping.tportal.hr
          • Alessandro Biondo
            Alfred, First of all, let me explain that, because we are dealing with such a difficult matter, it may happen that some misunderstanding arrive. We are more
            Message 5 of 10 , Jun 18, 2008
            • 0 Attachment
              Alfred,

              First of all, let me explain that, because we are dealing with such a
              difficult matter, it may happen that some misunderstanding arrive. We
              are more subject to misunderstandig because we need to explain, and
              understand, such complex topics in a language that is foreign for
              both us: I hope our american friends and you will excuse me if
              sometime something is not enough clear in my comments or enough
              understood by me.
              Let me add that I think that these days we are learning something one
              other's. The discussions are useful for this reason, even if
              something they are a bit frustrating, for the difficult to deal with
              complex matters, and to express these matters in a intelligible way.
              For the question of the lack of asian haplogroup, this discussion
              bring me to do some further thinking, and maybe there is a possible,
              biological reason: founder's effect. But I am not a scientist, so I
              don't know if this effect can apply to the history of the Jewish
              people in Europe: for sure there is an isolation, but I don't know if
              there was enough isolation, and if enough time passed to leave the
              founder's effect free to act. So we are again chained at the same
              point: we need more data and more, deeper, axplanations about more
              facts. But in the future, with more data (biology, archaeology,
              history and other fields can offer their contribute) and maybe also
              with some little help from thoughts from the different peoples
              commenting in this group, we have the hope to dominate a larger
              picture of our roots.

              Friendly.

              Alessandro.

              --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, KRUPA <mladen.krupa@...> wrote:
              >
              > Dear Dave,
              >
              > You have pointed several interesting things.
              > My grandfather was very short man - 162 cm only, like his brother
              > and sister (buried alive in Dachau), very strong builded (pre-war
              > amateur champion in boxing of Poland), round head, thin lipses,
              > very white skin, dark-blue eyes. Something like blue asian.
              > Later generations are taller, but not too tall, still white
              > skinned, strong builded.
              > My sister looked in chilhood like Chinese. I have two sisters and
              > brother and we all was blonde up to some age.
              >
              > I have several Hungarian Jews and converts to Christianity, in my
              > exact match and near exact match lists.
              > But main direction is to todays Ukraine (western Khazaria).
              >
              > Dr.Greenspan told me that it will be very difficult to find
              > usable DNA in Khazarian graves, due to local climate. And that
              > actually nobody is planning to undertake research in that field,
              > what is odd situation for my understanding of this matter.
              >
              > Allesandro,
              >
              > Capital letters was only to underline my idea. Nothing else. As
              > matter in fact I didnt write so much in English for years now!
              > I cannot explain why there is no other Asiatic haplogroups in
              > Ashkenazi community. As You, I can only predict or assume what
              > can be reason for such state in Ashkenazi genetic pool.
              > But, I am ,after all taken in consideration,pretty much convinced
              > that we are from Khazaria.
              > Most of us, at least.
              >
              > One hypothesis; maybe we are direct descendants of the Jewish
              > Imperial family of Khazaria, not of wider ruling class? Maybe
              > that is why statues shows Mongolic features? Who knows what will
              > come on surface in future!
              > We can only make hypothesis by now, for such statement.
              >
              > Regards,
              >
              > Alfred
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Citiram Dave Howard <dshoward@...>:
              >
              > > Barry,
              > >
              > > I have searched and searched and as far as I can find there is no
              > > study that attempts to define the yDNA makeup of the Khazarians.
              > >
              > > I have found several references that say this would be an
              excellent
              > > future project.
              > >
              > > Additionally, when Khazar crumbled as a nation it merged with the
              > > Maygars and many of those people are in Hungary today. Many
              Hungarian
              > > Jewish people are modern descendants of those Khazars. There are
              still
              > > place names and Khazarian words in place in those areas.
              > >
              > > Khazarian apparently were like the inhabitants of the Caucasus
              > > mountains area, i.e. stocky build, light skin, red hair and light
              > > colored eyes.
              > >
              > > Forgetting about Haplogroup Q, I know many Ashkenazi Jewish
              people who
              > > have that build, skin, hair and eye color. In fact, that is what I
              > > look like.
              > >
              > > Dave
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, Barryzwick@ wrote:
              > >>
              > >>
              > >> Hello, Comrades,
              > >>
              > >> I have been under the impression that, since we have no Khazar
              DNA
              > > in any
              > >> database, we must rely on matches with neighboring peoples to
              > > determine whether
              > >> there is a demonstrable relationship between us and the Khazars.
              > >>
              > >> Those neighboring peoples include Georgians, Azeris, Armenians
              and
              > > Chechens.
              > >>
              > >> Does Haplotype Q occur frequently among these people? Does
              anyone know?
              > >>
              > >> Thanks.
              > >>
              > >>
              > >> Barry Zwick in Los Angeles
              > >>
              > >>
              > >> In a message dated 6/15/2008 1:23:59 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
              > >> mladen.krupa@ writes:
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >> I am glad to see this further explanation from Dave.
              > >>
              > >> Well, I wanted to say that if we dont share mutation for Q1b it
              > >> will not disapprove Khazarian origin.
              > >> That is because it is normal that always there was a mixture of
              > >> population, including mixture of Q's (some will share this
              > >> "additional" mutation, some will not).
              > >> But, also as pointed by Dave earlier and now, and me somwhere in
              > >> the middle, we cannot look only on SNP's as they emerged
              > >> thousands of years of ago. Haplotypes will show us more recent
              > >> connection, even if we will not share mutation for Q1b
              > >> classification.
              > >>
              > >> I strongly believe that our Y-chromosome is of the Gok-Turk and
              > >> then Khazarian origin, and from maternal side we will share
              > >> Israelite origin (that is why we (some of us) have Levit
              > >> tradition).
              > >>
              > >> I will conclude this communication for today with one also
              > >> earlier mentioned fact: we are the only representatives of
              > >> Mongolic Race in Ashkenazi. There is no others; C,O..
              > >> Just we-the Q's.
              > >> It is very significant fact, as this truth separate us from any
              > >> Middle Eastern, or European group or race.
              > >> And also (as pointed earlier) because rulers of the Gok-Turk and
              > >> Khazarian Empire (Jewish Converts) are represented as people of
              > >> Mongolic Race. That exclude R1a, and R1a1, as well as other R's
              > >> as second non-israelite haplogroup.
              > >> It is just a leading, but I find all this far too much similar
              to
              > >> be mere coincidence.
              > >>
              > >> And for Mr.Biondo's interesting writing; we are all descendants
              > >> of people from Eastern African soil.
              > >>
              > >> Alfred
              > >>
              > >> Citiram Dave Howard <_dshoward@_ (mailto:dshoward@) >:
              > >>
              > >> > Prof. Krupa is correct that there is evidence that there was a
              > >> > Khazarian conversion and some of their DNA may have entered
              the
              > >> > Ashkenazi gene
              > >> > pool.
              > >> >
              > >> > This is not inconsistent with my point. We have no
              disagreement.
              > >> >
              > >> > My point is that the Khazars are not necessarily the source
              of our
              > >> > Haplogroup-Q Y-Chromosome. That they may have provided some of
              > > our DNA
              > >> > does not mean that they are also the source of our yDNA.
              > >> >
              > >> > If Haplogroup-Q yDNA was in the Khazarian group it will
              > >> > be interesting to see if they had the M378 SNP mutation. It
              will be
              > >> > interesting to see if we really have it as well.
              > >> >
              > >> > One does suspect the Khazars as a possible source in that our
              common
              > >> > ancestor lived within the last 1,000 years. However, his
              > > appearance may
              > >> > or may not coincide with the Khazarian period.
              > >> >
              > >> > That we may all share a common ancestor within the last 1,000
              > > years is
              > >> > based on our STRs and not our SNPs. I believe this is what
              Prof. Kupa
              > >> > means by "New DNA" vs. "Old DNA." The STR mutations are recent
              > > events.
              > >> > Our SNP mutations took place thousands of years ago.
              > >> >
              > >> > You may find the Khazarian links Prof. Krupa provided to be
              > > interesting,
              > >> > as I
              > >> > did.
              > >> >
              > >> > At the same time make sure you read the excellent Wikipedia
              article
              > >> > that discusses the Khazars including the controversy caused
              by the
              > >> > book The Thirteenth Tribe as well as the current anti-semitic
              theory
              > >> > that is popular among Arab states today.
              > >> >
              > >> > _http://en.wikipediahttp://en.http://_
              > >> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazars)
              > >> > <_http://en.wikipediahttp://en.http://_
              > >> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazars) >
              > >> >
              > >> > Here is a brief snippet from the Wikipedia article. (I
              strongly
              > >> > recommend reading the whole article at the link. The
              referenced
              > >> > footnotes are in the full article.)
              > >> >
              > >> > The National Academy of Science study referred to below is
              > > included in
              > >> > our "Files" section entitled "Jewish and non-Jewish Middle
              Easterners
              > >> > same yDNA pool.pdf." I encourage you to look it over.
              > >> >
              > >> > DNA Evidence
              > >> >
              > >> > Most Jews, including Ashkenazi Jews, do not exhibit the
              oriental
              > >> > features of the Khazars, who were likely of Central Asian
              Turkish
              > >> > origin. Modern DNA studies on the Y chromosome of Jews
              worldwide have
              > >> > also discredited the Khazar origin theory for the vast
              majority of
              > >> > Jews, including the Ashkenazi.
              > >> >
              > >> > A study published by the National Academy of Sciences found
              that "The
              > >> > results support the hypothesis that the paternal gene pools
              of Jewish
              > >> > communities from Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East
              descended
              > >> > from a common Middle Eastern ancestral population, and
              suggest that
              > >> > most Jewish communities have remained relatively isolated from
              > >> > neighboring non-Jewish communities during and after the
              Diaspora."
              > >> > [2]. Researchers express surprise at the remarkable genetic
              > > uniformity
              > >> > they found among modern Jews, no matter where the diaspora
              has become
              > >> > dispersed around the world. Contradicting the "mongrel"
              theory, DNA
              > >> > demonstrated substantially less inter-marriage among Jews
              over the
              > >> > last 3000 years than found in other populations.
              > >> >
              > >> > "The results accord with Jewish history and tradition and
              refute
              > >> > theories like those holding that Jewish communities consist
              mostly of
              > >> > converts from other faiths, or that they are descended from
              the
              > >> > Khazars, a medieval Turkish tribe that adopted Judaism." [3]
              [43]
              > >> >
              > >> > Morever, "The analysis provides genetic witness that these
              > > communities
              > >> > have, to a remarkable extent, retained their biological
              identity
              > >> > separate from their host populations, evidence of relatively
              little
              > >> > intermarriage or conversion into Judaism over the centuries."
              Id. And
              > >> > another finding, paradoxical but unsurprising, is that by the
              > >> > yardstick of the Y chromosome, the world's Jewish communities
              are
              > >> > closely related to Syrians and Palestinians[ closely related
              to
              > >> > are descended from a common ancestral population that
              inhabited the
              > >> > Middle East some four thousand years ago. Id.
              > >> >
              > >> > This study found that "The extremely close affinity of Jewish
              and
              > >> > non-Jewish Middle Eastern populations observed ... supports
              the
              > >> > hypothesis of a common Middle Eastern origin.",[45] as does
              the
              > >> > mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) of at least 40% of the current
              Ashkenazi
              > >> > population.[ population.[<WBR>19] So although Khazars could
              possibly
              > >> > into the modern Jewish population as we know it today, it is
              unlikely
              > >> > that they formed a large percentage of the ancestors of modern
              > > Jews.[46]
              > >> >
              > >> >
              > >> > Dave
              > >> >
              > >> >
              > >> >
              > >>
              > >> ---------------------------------<WBR>---------<WBR>- T - C o m
              > > ----------
              > >> Ova poruka poslana je upotrebom T-Com Webmail usluge
              > >> Uzivajte u shoppingu ne napustajuci udobnost svoga doma!
              > >> _http://shopping.http://sho_ (http://shopping.tportal.hr/)
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >> **************Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife.
              City's
              > > Best
              > >> 2008. (http://citysbest.aol.com?ncid=aolacg00050000000102)
              > >>
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              > ---------------------- T - C o m - - W e b m a i l -----------------
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            • Barryzwick@aol.com
              Thanks so much for all your research, Dave, not only on this but on other DNA questions. There is a conflict between Alfred s insistence that Khazars were
              Message 6 of 10 , Jun 18, 2008
              • 0 Attachment
                Thanks so much for all your research, Dave, not only on this but on other DNA questions.
                 
                There is a conflict between Alfred's insistence that Khazars were Mongolian and your own personal description. I suspect that red hair and light-colored eyes are rare among Mongolians. You can't both be right.
                 
                As to whether the Khazars "merged" with the Magyars, I have never read that it was anything quite that concrete. The Khazars indeed left some traces in Hungary. Whether this was a mass movement is quite another matter. Since so many of the Khazars were Muslim, how could it come to be that Judaism survived among the Khazarian transplants, but Islam did not?
                 
                Since the Khazars did not chronicle what became of themselves, we can only guess. They diverged strongly from the people among whom they lived, who kept track of every ruler, every harvest and every battle. The Khazars had no written language. This alone would have made their survival as Jews close to miraculous. They could have left records in Hebrew, true, but we have no evidence that they did.
                 
                I'm afraid I remain a skeptic.
                 
                I'm following this discussion with a great deal of interest. We are lucky that so many well-informed people share our genetic heritage.
                 
                Barry
                 
                Barry Zwick in Los Angeles
                 
                 
                In a message dated 6/18/2008 11:29:29 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, dshoward@... writes:

                Barry,

                I have searched and searched and as far as I can find there is no
                study that attempts to define the yDNA makeup of the Khazarians.

                I have found several references that say this would be an excellent
                future project.

                Additionally, when Khazar crumbled as a nation it merged with the
                Maygars and many of those people are in Hungary today. Many Hungarian
                Jewish people are modern descendants of those Khazars. There are still
                place names and Khazarian words in place in those areas.

                Khazarian apparently were like the inhabitants of the Caucasus
                mountains area, i.e. stocky build, light skin, red hair and light
                colored eyes.

                Forgetting about Haplogroup Q, I know many Ashkenazi Jewish people who
                have that build, skin, hair and eye color. In fact, that is what I
                look like.

                Dave

                --- In Ashkenazi-Q@ yahoogroups. com, Barryzwick@. .. wrote:
                >
                >
                > Hello, Comrades,
                >
                > I have been under the impression that, since we have no Khazar DNA
                in any
                > database, we must rely on matches with neighboring peoples to
                determine whether
                > there is a demonstrable relationship between us and the Khazars.
                >
                > Those neighboring peoples include Georgians, Azeris, Armenians and
                Chechens.
                >
                > Does Haplotype Q occur frequently among these people? Does anyone know?
                >
                > Thanks.
                >
                >
                > Barry Zwick in Los Angeles
                >
                >
                > In a message dated 6/15/2008 1:23:59 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
                > mladen.krupa@ ... writes:
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > I am glad to see this further explanation from Dave.
                >
                > Well, I wanted to say that if we dont share mutation for Q1b it
                > will not disapprove Khazarian origin.
                > That is because it is normal that always there was a mixture of
                > population, including mixture of Q's (some will share this
                > "additional" mutation, some will not).
                > But, also as pointed by Dave earlier and now, and me somwhere in
                > the middle, we cannot look only on SNP's as they emerged
                > thousands of years of ago. Haplotypes will show us more recent
                > connection, even if we will not share mutation for Q1b
                > classification.
                >
                > I strongly believe that our Y-chromosome is of the Gok-Turk and
                > then Khazarian origin, and from maternal side we will share
                > Israelite origin (that is why we (some of us) have Levit
                > tradition).
                >
                > I will conclude this communication for today with one also
                > earlier mentioned fact: we are the only representatives of
                > Mongolic Race in Ashkenazi. There is no others; C,O..
                > Just we-the Q's.
                > It is very significant fact, as this truth separate us from any
                > Middle Eastern, or European group or race.
                > And also (as pointed earlier) because rulers of the Gok-Turk and
                > Khazarian Empire (Jewish Converts) are represented as people of
                > Mongolic Race. That exclude R1a, and R1a1, as well as other R's
                > as second non-israelite haplogroup.
                > It is just a leading, but I find all this far too much similar to
                > be mere coincidence.
                >
                > And for Mr.Biondo's interesting writing; we are all descendants
                > of people from Eastern African soil.
                >
                > Alfred
                >
                > Citiram Dave Howard <_dshoward@. .._ (mailto:dshoward@ ...) >:
                >
                > > Prof. Krupa is correct that there is evidence that there was a
                > > Khazarian conversion and some of their DNA may have entered the
                > > Ashkenazi gene
                > > pool.
                > >
                > > This is not inconsistent with my point. We have no disagreement.
                > >
                > > My point is that the Khazars are not necessarily the source of our
                > > Haplogroup-Q Y-Chromosome. That they may have provided some of
                our DNA
                > > does not mean that they are also the source of our yDNA.
                > >
                > > If Haplogroup-Q yDNA was in the Khazarian group it will
                > > be interesting to see if they had the M378 SNP mutation. It will be
                > > interesting to see if we really have it as well.
                > >
                > > One does suspect the Khazars as a possible source in that our common
                > > ancestor lived within the last 1,000 years. However, his
                appearance may
                > > or may not coincide with the Khazarian period.
                > >
                > > That we may all share a common ancestor within the last 1,000
                years is
                > > based on our STRs and not our SNPs. I believe this is what Prof. Kupa
                > > means by "New DNA" vs. "Old DNA." The STR mutations are recent
                events.
                > > Our SNP mutations took place thousands of years ago.
                > >
                > > You may find the Khazarian links Prof. Krupa provided to be
                interesting,
                > > as I
                > > did.
                > >
                > > At the same time make sure you read the excellent Wikipedia article
                > > that discusses the Khazars including the controversy caused by the
                > > book The Thirteenth Tribe as well as the current anti-semitic theory
                > > that is popular among Arab states today.
                > >
                > > _http://en.wikipedia http://en. http://_
                > (http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Khazars)
                > > <_http://en.wikipedia http://en. http://_
                > (http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Khazars) >
                > >
                > > Here is a brief snippet from the Wikipedia article. (I strongly
                > > recommend reading the whole article at the link. The referenced
                > > footnotes are in the full article.)
                > >
                > > The National Academy of Science study referred to below is
                included in
                > > our "Files" section entitled "Jewish and non-Jewish Middle Easterners
                > > same yDNA pool.pdf." I encourage you to look it over.
                > >
                > > DNA Evidence
                > >
                > > Most Jews, including Ashkenazi Jews, do not exhibit the oriental
                > > features of the Khazars, who were likely of Central Asian Turkish
                > > origin. Modern DNA studies on the Y chromosome of Jews worldwide have
                > > also discredited the Khazar origin theory for the vast majority of
                > > Jews, including the Ashkenazi.
                > >
                > > A study published by the National Academy of Sciences found that "The
                > > results support the hypothesis that the paternal gene pools of Jewish
                > > communities from Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East descended
                > > from a common Middle Eastern ancestral population, and suggest that
                > > most Jewish communities have remained relatively isolated from
                > > neighboring non-Jewish communities during and after the Diaspora."
                > > [2]. Researchers express surprise at the remarkable genetic
                uniformity
                > > they found among modern Jews, no matter where the diaspora has become
                > > dispersed around the world. Contradicting the "mongrel" theory, DNA
                > > demonstrated substantially less inter-marriage among Jews over the
                > > last 3000 years than found in other populations.
                > >
                > > "The results accord with Jewish history and tradition and refute
                > > theories like those holding that Jewish communities consist mostly of
                > > converts from other faiths, or that they are descended from the
                > > Khazars, a medieval Turkish tribe that adopted Judaism." [3] [43]
                > >
                > > Morever, "The analysis provides genetic witness that these
                communities
                > > have, to a remarkable extent, retained their biological identity
                > > separate from their host populations, evidence of relatively little
                > > intermarriage or conversion into Judaism over the centuries." Id. And
                > > another finding, paradoxical but unsurprising, is that by the
                > > yardstick of the Y chromosome, the world's Jewish communities are
                > > closely related to Syrians and Palestinians[ closely related to
                > > are descended from a common ancestral population that inhabited the
                > > Middle East some four thousand years ago. Id.
                > >
                > > This study found that "The extremely close affinity of Jewish and
                > > non-Jewish Middle Eastern populations observed ... supports the
                > > hypothesis of a common Middle Eastern origin.",[45] as does the
                > > mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) of at least 40% of the current Ashkenazi
                > > population.[ population.[ <WBR>19] So although Khazars could possibly
                > > into the modern Jewish population as we know it today, it is unlikely
                > > that they formed a large percentage of the ancestors of modern
                Jews.[46]
                > >
                > >
                > > Dave
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                > ------------ --------- --------- ---<WBR>- --------< WBR>- T - C o m
                ----------
                > Ova poruka poslana je upotrebom T-Com Webmail usluge
                > Uzivajte u shoppingu ne napustajuci udobnost svoga doma!
                > _http://shopping. http://sho_ (http://shopping. tportal.hr/)
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ************ **Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's
                Best
                > 2008. (http://citysbest. aol.com?ncid= aolacg0005000000 0102)
                >

                 




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              • KRUPA
                Barry, I am red, particulary in beard. Khazars used Turkic Runes, and later Hebrew. Alfred ... Ova poruka poslana je upotrebom T-Com Webmail usluge Uzivajte u
                Message 7 of 10 , Jun 18, 2008
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                  Barry,

                  I am red, particulary in beard.

                  Khazars used Turkic Runes, and later Hebrew.


                  Alfred




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