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Re: Khazarian Connection is Mere Speculation

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  • Alessandro Felice Biondo
    Reading the posts following my comments, it seems to me that the lenght of my comments highlighted some parts and shaded some other. Please let me highlight
    Message 1 of 7 , Jun 15, 2008
      Reading the posts following my comments, it seems to me that the
      lenght of my comments highlighted some parts and shaded some other.
      Please let me highlight that even if I tried to see the big picture
      of the Q (based on SNP), I commented extensively also our particular
      haplotype, based on STR. This is precisely what I did when I wrote
      about the YHRD database (a public database of haplotypes, not
      haplogroup), commenting that here you can find many matches to our
      haplotype all around Europe and Western Asia. I cited also the data
      from the paper of Behar, where the author deals with STR marker.
      Again I created the "fairytale" of Q to permit us to view that with
      the FEW data we known today, we can imagine the origin of our
      particular Q in Khazaria but also outside from Khazaria, and in
      particular in the Middle Eastern area where, in the study of Zalloua
      and Cinnioglu I cited, you can easily find some interesting matches
      to our Q haplotype (STR), side by side with some, more different Q
      haplotypes (that's precisely the haplotype diversity). So I dealt
      extensively on our haplotype, not only with the general Q that I used
      only as a general frame: my purpose, and my writing, was not to deal
      with the origin of mankind, but only with the origin of our haplotype.
      So if all the scientist today agree (and we agree with them,
      obviously) that we are all descendant from African soil, the same
      scientist today haven't such extensively shared theory about our
      particular Q; and if the scientist haven't it yet, how can we sure
      of our theory?

      Alessandro Biondo.


      --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Howard" <dshoward@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > Steve Orlen raises an excellent point when he says leading experts
      no
      > longer favor a connection between Jewish Qs and the Khazarians.
      >
      > Here is the story of where the theory comes from and its current
      status.
      >
      > About July of 2006 when my first yDNA results were available I found
      > myself in a large group of confused men of Ashkenazim descent. My
      > family (Horowitz) is a Rabbinical line with the tradition of being
      > Levites that migrated to Central Europe from Girona, Spain.
      >
      > I called Bennett Greenspan, the CEO of Family Tree DNA and asked him
      > how could we all descended from a Siberian man if our ancestors were
      > Jewish.
      >
      > Off the top of his head he speculated that maybe the Khazarians had
      a
      > little Haplogroup Q yDNA among them when they converted and
      > intermarried. He suggested that we might be descendants of those
      > hypothetical Khazarian Qs.
      >
      > I went with this suggestion and published it widely among our group.
      >
      > In November 2006 I attended the Group Administrators' Conference put
      > on by Family Tree DNA in Houston, TX. I once again spoke with
      Bennett.
      > He suggested that I "buttonhole" Dr. Doron M. Behar who was in
      > attendance. Dr. Behar, based in Israel, is the lead author for most
      of
      > the scholarly articles in "Files" dealing with Ashkenazim yDNA.
      >
      > I did find Dr. Behar and he was very kind to spend time with me. I
      > asked him how we got to be Qs. I asked him specifically if he
      thought
      > the Khazarians were the source of our Q-ness.
      >
      > As best as I recall (and I have a terrible memory for these things,
      > just ask my wife) here is what he said, "I have looked at your
      data. I
      > do not favor the idea that the Khazarians had anything to do with
      it.
      > I think that the record will eventually show that you guys are all
      > descended from one man who lived about 900 years ago."(see end note
      **)
      >
      > Last October 2007, I once again attended the Group Administrators'
      > Conference in Houston and had the pleasure to meet in person my
      cousin
      > (on my mother's side), Rebekah Canada. She and I were having dinner
      > when Bennett Greenspan and Dr. Michael Hammer came up to us.
      > They were both a bit excited. As best I recall (I am sure Rebekah
      > remembers better) Dr. Hammer told us that he had found a
      > yDNA SNP that was unique to our group. He said that if his draft
      paper
      > were published the way it was then we would have a Subclade all of
      our
      > own, viz. Q-1-g. There has been a change and now if he is right we
      > will have our own Subclade of Q-1-b.
      >
      > Rebekah tells me the SNP Dr. Hammer was referring to is M378 for
      which
      > none of us has been tested.
      >
      > According to the 2008 classification M378 is downstream from P36.2
      > which is downstream from M242. (M242 (Q) >> P36.2 (Q1) >> M378
      (Q1b))
      > If you have been tested for M242 you remain a Q* until you test for
      > M378. If you have been tested for P36.2 and have it you are now Q1*
      > until you test positive for M378.
      >
      > The only article I have seen (found by Alessandro Biondo) shows the
      > M278 SNP downstream from SNP M120. I put the article up on this site
      > in "Files." It is the Sengupta 2005 article "yDNA Distributions in
      > India" (my title not his). He discusses the yDNA impact on Southern
      > Asians when Northern Asian Pastorialist (roaming tribes from
      > Afghanistan, India and Pakistan) moved south.
      >
      > Sengupta identified SNP M378 in the study discussed in this paper.
      In
      > the 2002 yDNA tree M378 (Q1a) was downstream from M120 (Q1). In the
      > 2008 yDNA tree M378 has been pulled out from under M120 and has the
      > new designation of Q1b.
      >
      > Did Sengupta et al err when they put M378 downstream from M120? This
      > is not discussed in the 2008 paper.
      >
      > We need Dr. Hammer and the others to publish their findings. I will
      > contact Bennett Greenspan and ask if he can do anything to
      accelerate
      > the release of this information. Scientists are very competitive.
      They
      > keep their data confidential as well as their conclusions prior to
      > publication.
      >
      > Bottom line, as of right now we don't know how we fit into the
      > family tree of mankind past the Q1 branch. We don't yet know how we
      > even got out on the Q1 branch.
      >
      > I bet you never thought anthropology could be so interesting!
      >
      > Best regards to all,
      >
      > Dave
      >
      > **If about half the 14 million Jewish people in the world today are
      of
      > Ashkenazi descent and if half are women and about 4% of the
      Ashkenazim
      > are Haplogroup Q then there are about 14,000 male Ashkenazi-Qs in
      the
      > world today. If 25 years makes a generation then in 900 years there
      > are 36 generations. Trust me, one man could easily have 14,000 male
      > descendants in this time frame.
      >
    • Eben Haber
      Hello Cousins, I got the Deep Clade results back, which say that I m Q1b. Interestingly, the results page list 12 Marker exact matches, and they include one Q,
      Message 2 of 7 , Aug 26, 2008
        Hello Cousins,

        I got the Deep Clade results back, which say that I'm Q1b.

        Interestingly, the results page list 12 Marker exact matches, and they
        include one Q, 11 Q1s, and two Q1bs. It doesn't list 25 or 37 marker
        matches, I don't know if that's because they haven't been tested, or
        if they just don't list them.

        What exactly does it mean to have an exact 12 Marker Match who is in a
        different Haplogroup? That the 12-marker match happened before the
        haplogroup split off? That they converged by chance?

        Thanks,

        -Eben Haber
      • christopher baysinger
        I got mine back as well, Q1b. Christopher D. Baysinger, cdbaysinger@hotmail.com Dance like no one is watching. Sing like no one is listening. Love like you ve
        Message 3 of 7 , Aug 26, 2008
          I got mine back as well, Q1b.

          Christopher D. Baysinger, cdbaysinger@...

          Dance like no one is watching. Sing like no one is listening. Love like you've never been hurt and live like it's heaven on Earth.

               Mark Twain

          A man can be free without being great, but no man can be great without being free.

               Kahlil Gibran




          To: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com
          From: eben@...
          Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 07:34:51 -0700
          Subject: [Ashkenazi-Q] It looks li Sendke I'm Q1b....

          Hello Cousins,

          I got the Deep Clade results back, which say that I'm Q1b.

          Interestingly, the results page list 12 Marker exact matches, and they
          include one Q, 11 Q1s, and two Q1bs. It doesn't list 25 or 37 marker
          matches, I don't know if that's because they haven't been tested, or
          if they just don't list them.

          What exactly does it mean to have an exact 12 Marker Match who is in a
          different Haplogroup? That the 12-marker match happened before the
          haplogroup split off? That they converged by chance?

          Thanks,

          -Eben Haber



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