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Re: Khazarian Connection is Mere Speculation

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  • Alessandro Felice Biondo
    Dear Mr Krupa, let me confirm that I think the Middle Ages eastern invaders (Khazars, but also Avars, Bulgars, and Huns), as the more likely source of my (and
    Message 1 of 7 , Jun 15, 2008
      Dear Mr Krupa,
      let me confirm that I think the Middle Ages eastern invaders
      (Khazars, but also Avars, Bulgars, and Huns), as the more likely
      source of my (and yours) particular Q, and for this reason as you
      know, I am a member of your FTDNA project. But also I think that not
      all of we know today of the diffusion of our particular Q can be
      explained with the Khazarian connection alone. We deal with so
      distant, so complex, and not so well understood facts, that we can't
      be totally sure of the true history: for this I prefer to be free to
      elaborate and examine also different, sometimes strange, ideas.
      I am aware that what is in discussion is not the general Q, but our
      particular Q. I think also that the big picture of all the Q can give
      us some hints about our particular Q: it's necessary to concentrate
      our attention on the particular, but it's better that the big picture
      is not lost.
      In your post you write that you are from Hvar, a fact that I consider
      important for me. Hoping to not go off-topics, I ask you more
      information about what you know of the Q in Hvar. I am much
      interested for three reasons:
      - In Hvar and Korcula (L. Barac: Y chromosome STRs in
      Croatians), and in Central and Eastern Turkey (C. Cinnioglu:
      Excavating Y-chromosome haplotype strata in Anatolia) I have the
      nearest matches among the scientific papers I know;
      - Hvar was under the Venetian rule for centuries, and the most
      ancient testimonial of my surname is in Venice, in the ending of the
      1200's. Venetians were the most important traders that times, and for
      this reason I always considered a merchant connection through Venice
      as a good idea. I can add that the more ancient Biondo in Sicily
      (were my family is from), the years around 1400's, were traders.
      - Hvar, when under the Venetian rule, was the birth place of
      Giovanni Francesco Biondi (Ivan Franje Bjundovic in Croatian) a
      famous writer in the years around 1600. I know also of a Giovanni
      Biondi (Biondich ?) from Korcula as protestant priest in London the
      years around 1600, maybe the same person or maybe a relative of the
      former. It is interesting because Biondi is the plural form (in
      Italian) and the genitive form (in Latin) of my surname.
      Please, let me know what you know about Q in Hvar and Korcula, and
      feel free to reply privately to my email address (that you already
      know because I am a member of your group in FTDNA) if you prefer.

      Thank you very much.

      Alessandro Biondo.


      --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, KRUPA <mladen.krupa@...> wrote:
      >
      > Dear Mr.Biondo,
      >
      > Thank You for such a long discussion.
      >
      > For me picture is not so murky.
      > We must look on haplogroup and haplotype matches in the same
      > time.
      > We should not care too much on distant haplotype matches as they
      > describe different time frame then this particular one-
      > cca.700-1.000 years ago. Also, we dont need to explain this
      > distant matches ancestors journey (for our purpose).
      > For example; there is number of Q's in Finland, but they have
      > nothing to do with us (no matches in haplotype). Finnish tribe
      > moved from Central Asia together with Hungars (where we also
      > have low number of Q's) from Central Asia.
      > So our geographic origin is similar, and confirm our statements
      > about primary origin.
      > Other pockets of Q's (including Island of Hvar in Croatia/where I
      > live/ with highest number of Q's in total population)shows some
      > other time frame and some other group of people with ancestral
      > origin in Central/North Asia.
      > Our matches from Asia describes our fathers travel from South
      > Siberia/North China via Silk Road,to Khazarian area (South
      > Russia),to Eastern Europe, then to Western Europe trough several
      > ways.
      > Just to add that in area where current Q's reside in South
      > Scandinavia, Khazarian artefacts has been found and detected.
      > You have probably heard about Khazarian coin with inscription
      > "Moses God's Prophet"?
      > In my exact matches list there is a few people who knows that
      > families converted from Judaism /Hungary,Poland /, and some
      > suspected on such event.
      > Finnaly, in any case there is really small number of "us", Jews
      > or no Jews".(To compare there is one member (one other
      > haplogroup) of my project with over 725 exact 12/12 markers
      > matches!)
      >
      >
      > Alfred Krupa
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Citiram Alessandro Felice Biondo <alefbiondo@...>:
      >
      > > Dear all,
      > > I am the Alessandro Biondo cited by Dave about in his post. Let me
      > > add some ideas to the discussion about the origin of Q in
      Ashkenazim,
      > > and in non Ashkenazi European.
      > > First of all let me spend a word on the M378. As Rebekah and Dave
      > > already known, I was tested by Ethnoancestry for a series of SNP
      > > typical of the different Q subclades. In February EA reported I am
      > > positive for the M378 and negative for the M120, and in general I
      am
      > > positive for the M242 and the P36, and negative for the mutations
      of
      > > all the other Q's SNP I was tested. So there are two
      possibilities
      > > about the relations between M120 and M378: or the original study
      of
      > > Sengupta was wrong in positioning M378 downstream M120, or we
      carry
      > > a backward mutation on this SNP (but if this is the case we have
      also
      > > a backward mutation on MEH, and two backward mutation are
      excessive
      > > to be realistic).
      > > About the khazarian connection this is my thought.
      > > The Khazarian origin of Q is at present the more supported idea
      but,
      > > as all the theories, has strong points and weak points. The strong
      > > points are well explained by Mr Krupa in his works and his posts,
      and
      > > honestly we can say that this theory offer at present an answer
      for
      > > the presence of Q in Eastern European Ashkenazi. But I think it is
      > > necessary to add some word about the presence of Eastern European
      > > Ashkenazi in public databases. The Eastern European Ashkenazi are
      > > today well represented in the FTDNA and in general in public
      > > databases, so they are a well analyzed sample group, but I
      suspect
      > > also that all the public databases are a bit skewed toward this
      > > group, so the big picture is a bit less clear about other groups
      > > carrying the Q. In other words, if in public databases we have,
      for
      > > example 1000 men with Eastern European Ashkenazi roots, and only
      100
      > > men from the Western European Ashkenazi group, and the presence of
      > > Q is 5% of all the Ashkenazi, as result we have 50 Q from the
      > > eastern group and only 5 from the western group: the picture that
      > > come out is that the eastern men seem more important, when we
      analyze
      > > the origin of Q, than the western. The results is that we tend to
      > > concentrate our attention on the origin of Q in the eastern group.
      > > This idea lead to what I think is the weak point of the Khazarian
      > > connection
      > > The weak point of this theory is that it fail to give a good
      answer
      > > to the presence of Q in the Western European Ashkenazi and among
      > > other Europeans. For example in the Behar study of the 2004
      > > (Contrasting patterns of Y chromosome variation in Ashkenazi
      Jewish
      > > and host non-Jewish European populations), in the Supplemental
      > > Material , are reported 23 samples carrying Q-P36: among these
      > > samples, 9 are from Western Europe, and the most represented
      country
      > > is German with 5 samples. Again, if you search in the YHRD
      databases,
      > > we can find that, on the 7 core marker of this database, there
      are a
      > > good number of samples from different part of the Europe and of
      > > western and central Asia with a genetic distance of 0 and 1 from
      the
      > > typical Ashkenazi Q haplotype. The question is: how can we give an
      > > answer to this geographical diffusion of this haplotype: are all
      the
      > > samples from some Jewish community? and the non-Jews of these
      samples
      > > are all descendant from some Jew-Khazarian merchant? For both the
      > > questions the only honest answer is that we don't know. For sure,
      > > because of the vast geographical area involved (Moroccan Berber
      from
      > > Northern Africa, Northern Europe, Southern Europe, the Levant,
      > > western Asia, Central Asia) and because of the number of peoples
      > > involved, it is a not so easy to answer that it is only the
      result of
      > > a eastern-Jewish or Jew-Khazarian diaspora.
      > > In short I think that the Khazarian connection is at present the
      only
      > > answer we have, even if it is not so strong to give us the final
      > > answer. I think that it will receive a good support only when and
      if
      > > it will give us an answer to all of the geographical diffusion of
      our
      > > typical Q type, not only the Eastern European Ashkenazi core
      > > presence. For this reason I think that other theories should be
      > > searched for, in parallel with the khazaria theory, to give to
      all of
      > > us the possibility to know more about our remote, historical
      roots.
      > > Thank you to all for your attention, and please excuse me if my
      > > English is not so good.
      > > Alessandro Biondo.
      > >
      > >
      > > --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Howard" <dshoward@>
      > > wrote:
      > >>
      > >> Steve Orlen raises an excellent point when he says leading
      experts
      > > no
      > >> longer favor a connection between Jewish Qs and the Khazarians.
      > >>
      > >> Here is the story of where the theory comes from and its current
      > > status.
      > >>
      > >> About July of 2006 when my first yDNA results were available I
      found
      > >> myself in a large group of confused men of Ashkenazim descent. My
      > >> family (Horowitz) is a Rabbinical line with the tradition of
      being
      > >> Levites that migrated to Central Europe from Girona, Spain.
      > >>
      > >> I called Bennett Greenspan, the CEO of Family Tree DNA and asked
      him
      > >> how could we all descended from a Siberian man if our ancestors
      were
      > >> Jewish.
      > >>
      > >> Off the top of his head he speculated that maybe the Khazarians
      had
      > > a
      > >> little Haplogroup Q yDNA among them when they converted and
      > >> intermarried. He suggested that we might be descendants of those
      > >> hypothetical Khazarian Qs.
      > >>
      > >> I went with this suggestion and published it widely among our
      group.
      > >>
      > >> In November 2006 I attended the Group Administrators' Conference
      put
      > >> on by Family Tree DNA in Houston, TX. I once again spoke with
      > > Bennett.
      > >> He suggested that I "buttonhole" Dr. Doron M. Behar who was in
      > >> attendance. Dr. Behar, based in Israel, is the lead author for
      most
      > > of
      > >> the scholarly articles in "Files" dealing with Ashkenazim yDNA.
      > >>
      > >> I did find Dr. Behar and he was very kind to spend time with me.
      I
      > >> asked him how we got to be Qs. I asked him specifically if he
      > > thought
      > >> the Khazarians were the source of our Q-ness.
      > >>
      > >> As best as I recall (and I have a terrible memory for these
      things,
      > >> just ask my wife) here is what he said, "I have looked at your
      > > data. I
      > >> do not favor the idea that the Khazarians had anything to do with
      > > it.
      > >> I think that the record will eventually show that you guys are
      all
      > >> descended from one man who lived about 900 years ago."(see end
      note
      > > **)
      > >>
      > >> Last October 2007, I once again attended the Group
      Administrators'
      > >> Conference in Houston and had the pleasure to meet in person my
      > > cousin
      > >> (on my mother's side), Rebekah Canada. She and I were having
      dinner
      > >> when Bennett Greenspan and Dr. Michael Hammer came up to us.
      > >> They were both a bit excited. As best I recall (I am sure Rebekah
      > >> remembers better) Dr. Hammer told us that he had found a
      > >> yDNA SNP that was unique to our group. He said that if his draft
      > > paper
      > >> were published the way it was then we would have a Subclade all
      of
      > > our
      > >> own, viz. Q-1-g. There has been a change and now if he is right
      we
      > >> will have our own Subclade of Q-1-b.
      > >>
      > >> Rebekah tells me the SNP Dr. Hammer was referring to is M378 for
      > > which
      > >> none of us has been tested.
      > >>
      > >> According to the 2008 classification M378 is downstream from
      P36.2
      > >> which is downstream from M242. (M242 (Q) >> P36.2 (Q1) >> M378
      > > (Q1b))
      > >> If you have been tested for M242 you remain a Q* until you test
      for
      > >> M378. If you have been tested for P36.2 and have it you are now
      Q1*
      > >> until you test positive for M378.
      > >>
      > >> The only article I have seen (found by Alessandro Biondo) shows
      the
      > >> M278 SNP downstream from SNP M120. I put the article up on this
      site
      > >> in "Files." It is the Sengupta 2005 article "yDNA Distributions
      in
      > >> India" (my title not his). He discusses the yDNA impact on
      Southern
      > >> Asians when Northern Asian Pastorialist (roaming tribes from
      > >> Afghanistan, India and Pakistan) moved south.
      > >>
      > >> Sengupta identified SNP M378 in the study discussed in this
      paper.
      > > In
      > >> the 2002 yDNA tree M378 (Q1a) was downstream from M120 (Q1). In
      the
      > >> 2008 yDNA tree M378 has been pulled out from under M120 and has
      the
      > >> new designation of Q1b.
      > >>
      > >> Did Sengupta et al err when they put M378 downstream from M120?
      This
      > >> is not discussed in the 2008 paper.
      > >>
      > >> We need Dr. Hammer and the others to publish their findings. I
      will
      > >> contact Bennett Greenspan and ask if he can do anything to
      > > accelerate
      > >> the release of this information. Scientists are very competitive.
      > > They
      > >> keep their data confidential as well as their conclusions prior
      to
      > >> publication.
      > >>
      > >> Bottom line, as of right now we don't know how we fit into the
      > >> family tree of mankind past the Q1 branch. We don't yet know how
      we
      > >> even got out on the Q1 branch.
      > >>
      > >> I bet you never thought anthropology could be so interesting!
      > >>
      > >> Best regards to all,
      > >>
      > >> Dave
      > >>
      > >> **If about half the 14 million Jewish people in the world today
      are
      > > of
      > >> Ashkenazi descent and if half are women and about 4% of the
      > > Ashkenazim
      > >> are Haplogroup Q then there are about 14,000 male Ashkenazi-Qs in
      > > the
      > >> world today. If 25 years makes a generation then in 900 years
      there
      > >> are 36 generations. Trust me, one man could easily have 14,000
      male
      > >> descendants in this time frame.
      > >>
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
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    • Alessandro Felice Biondo
      Reading the posts following my comments, it seems to me that the lenght of my comments highlighted some parts and shaded some other. Please let me highlight
      Message 2 of 7 , Jun 15, 2008
        Reading the posts following my comments, it seems to me that the
        lenght of my comments highlighted some parts and shaded some other.
        Please let me highlight that even if I tried to see the big picture
        of the Q (based on SNP), I commented extensively also our particular
        haplotype, based on STR. This is precisely what I did when I wrote
        about the YHRD database (a public database of haplotypes, not
        haplogroup), commenting that here you can find many matches to our
        haplotype all around Europe and Western Asia. I cited also the data
        from the paper of Behar, where the author deals with STR marker.
        Again I created the "fairytale" of Q to permit us to view that with
        the FEW data we known today, we can imagine the origin of our
        particular Q in Khazaria but also outside from Khazaria, and in
        particular in the Middle Eastern area where, in the study of Zalloua
        and Cinnioglu I cited, you can easily find some interesting matches
        to our Q haplotype (STR), side by side with some, more different Q
        haplotypes (that's precisely the haplotype diversity). So I dealt
        extensively on our haplotype, not only with the general Q that I used
        only as a general frame: my purpose, and my writing, was not to deal
        with the origin of mankind, but only with the origin of our haplotype.
        So if all the scientist today agree (and we agree with them,
        obviously) that we are all descendant from African soil, the same
        scientist today haven't such extensively shared theory about our
        particular Q; and if the scientist haven't it yet, how can we sure
        of our theory?

        Alessandro Biondo.


        --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Howard" <dshoward@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Steve Orlen raises an excellent point when he says leading experts
        no
        > longer favor a connection between Jewish Qs and the Khazarians.
        >
        > Here is the story of where the theory comes from and its current
        status.
        >
        > About July of 2006 when my first yDNA results were available I found
        > myself in a large group of confused men of Ashkenazim descent. My
        > family (Horowitz) is a Rabbinical line with the tradition of being
        > Levites that migrated to Central Europe from Girona, Spain.
        >
        > I called Bennett Greenspan, the CEO of Family Tree DNA and asked him
        > how could we all descended from a Siberian man if our ancestors were
        > Jewish.
        >
        > Off the top of his head he speculated that maybe the Khazarians had
        a
        > little Haplogroup Q yDNA among them when they converted and
        > intermarried. He suggested that we might be descendants of those
        > hypothetical Khazarian Qs.
        >
        > I went with this suggestion and published it widely among our group.
        >
        > In November 2006 I attended the Group Administrators' Conference put
        > on by Family Tree DNA in Houston, TX. I once again spoke with
        Bennett.
        > He suggested that I "buttonhole" Dr. Doron M. Behar who was in
        > attendance. Dr. Behar, based in Israel, is the lead author for most
        of
        > the scholarly articles in "Files" dealing with Ashkenazim yDNA.
        >
        > I did find Dr. Behar and he was very kind to spend time with me. I
        > asked him how we got to be Qs. I asked him specifically if he
        thought
        > the Khazarians were the source of our Q-ness.
        >
        > As best as I recall (and I have a terrible memory for these things,
        > just ask my wife) here is what he said, "I have looked at your
        data. I
        > do not favor the idea that the Khazarians had anything to do with
        it.
        > I think that the record will eventually show that you guys are all
        > descended from one man who lived about 900 years ago."(see end note
        **)
        >
        > Last October 2007, I once again attended the Group Administrators'
        > Conference in Houston and had the pleasure to meet in person my
        cousin
        > (on my mother's side), Rebekah Canada. She and I were having dinner
        > when Bennett Greenspan and Dr. Michael Hammer came up to us.
        > They were both a bit excited. As best I recall (I am sure Rebekah
        > remembers better) Dr. Hammer told us that he had found a
        > yDNA SNP that was unique to our group. He said that if his draft
        paper
        > were published the way it was then we would have a Subclade all of
        our
        > own, viz. Q-1-g. There has been a change and now if he is right we
        > will have our own Subclade of Q-1-b.
        >
        > Rebekah tells me the SNP Dr. Hammer was referring to is M378 for
        which
        > none of us has been tested.
        >
        > According to the 2008 classification M378 is downstream from P36.2
        > which is downstream from M242. (M242 (Q) >> P36.2 (Q1) >> M378
        (Q1b))
        > If you have been tested for M242 you remain a Q* until you test for
        > M378. If you have been tested for P36.2 and have it you are now Q1*
        > until you test positive for M378.
        >
        > The only article I have seen (found by Alessandro Biondo) shows the
        > M278 SNP downstream from SNP M120. I put the article up on this site
        > in "Files." It is the Sengupta 2005 article "yDNA Distributions in
        > India" (my title not his). He discusses the yDNA impact on Southern
        > Asians when Northern Asian Pastorialist (roaming tribes from
        > Afghanistan, India and Pakistan) moved south.
        >
        > Sengupta identified SNP M378 in the study discussed in this paper.
        In
        > the 2002 yDNA tree M378 (Q1a) was downstream from M120 (Q1). In the
        > 2008 yDNA tree M378 has been pulled out from under M120 and has the
        > new designation of Q1b.
        >
        > Did Sengupta et al err when they put M378 downstream from M120? This
        > is not discussed in the 2008 paper.
        >
        > We need Dr. Hammer and the others to publish their findings. I will
        > contact Bennett Greenspan and ask if he can do anything to
        accelerate
        > the release of this information. Scientists are very competitive.
        They
        > keep their data confidential as well as their conclusions prior to
        > publication.
        >
        > Bottom line, as of right now we don't know how we fit into the
        > family tree of mankind past the Q1 branch. We don't yet know how we
        > even got out on the Q1 branch.
        >
        > I bet you never thought anthropology could be so interesting!
        >
        > Best regards to all,
        >
        > Dave
        >
        > **If about half the 14 million Jewish people in the world today are
        of
        > Ashkenazi descent and if half are women and about 4% of the
        Ashkenazim
        > are Haplogroup Q then there are about 14,000 male Ashkenazi-Qs in
        the
        > world today. If 25 years makes a generation then in 900 years there
        > are 36 generations. Trust me, one man could easily have 14,000 male
        > descendants in this time frame.
        >
      • Eben Haber
        Hello Cousins, I got the Deep Clade results back, which say that I m Q1b. Interestingly, the results page list 12 Marker exact matches, and they include one Q,
        Message 3 of 7 , Aug 26, 2008
          Hello Cousins,

          I got the Deep Clade results back, which say that I'm Q1b.

          Interestingly, the results page list 12 Marker exact matches, and they
          include one Q, 11 Q1s, and two Q1bs. It doesn't list 25 or 37 marker
          matches, I don't know if that's because they haven't been tested, or
          if they just don't list them.

          What exactly does it mean to have an exact 12 Marker Match who is in a
          different Haplogroup? That the 12-marker match happened before the
          haplogroup split off? That they converged by chance?

          Thanks,

          -Eben Haber
        • christopher baysinger
          I got mine back as well, Q1b. Christopher D. Baysinger, cdbaysinger@hotmail.com Dance like no one is watching. Sing like no one is listening. Love like you ve
          Message 4 of 7 , Aug 26, 2008
            I got mine back as well, Q1b.

            Christopher D. Baysinger, cdbaysinger@...

            Dance like no one is watching. Sing like no one is listening. Love like you've never been hurt and live like it's heaven on Earth.

                 Mark Twain

            A man can be free without being great, but no man can be great without being free.

                 Kahlil Gibran




            To: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com
            From: eben@...
            Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 07:34:51 -0700
            Subject: [Ashkenazi-Q] It looks li Sendke I'm Q1b....

            Hello Cousins,

            I got the Deep Clade results back, which say that I'm Q1b.

            Interestingly, the results page list 12 Marker exact matches, and they
            include one Q, 11 Q1s, and two Q1bs. It doesn't list 25 or 37 marker
            matches, I don't know if that's because they haven't been tested, or
            if they just don't list them.

            What exactly does it mean to have an exact 12 Marker Match who is in a
            different Haplogroup? That the 12-marker match happened before the
            haplogroup split off? That they converged by chance?

            Thanks,

            -Eben Haber



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