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Re: Khazarian Connection is Mere Speculation

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  • Chris
    I am a Q1, my family came from Switzerland via Alsace France to the US in 1770. But my recorded ancestors were Lutheran, and before that Catholic, The Q within
    Message 1 of 7 , Jun 14, 2008
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      I am a Q1, my family came from Switzerland via Alsace France to the
      US in 1770. But my recorded ancestors were Lutheran, and before that
      Catholic, The Q within 2 mutations are almost all Swiss or
      Pennsylvania Dutch, with a near surname match at 14 an 16
      generations, respectively both of which, along with the other near
      matches, save those with a dys389II variants are non-Jewish. the
      Nearest discernible Ashkenazi is 27 generation distant, or around the
      time of the first crusade. Which leaves me with two possibilities: 1.
      my ancestors were conversos and remained in Switzerland-Wurtemburg-
      Alsace-Burgundy Alamennic region, or 1.That they came from a parallel
      group descended from the same Sarmatian herdsman that might have
      started it all. Occam's Razor favors the former, that the
      Pennsylvania Dutch, an we their near relatians are descended from the
      proto-Ashkenazim. I would be interested to find out more from testing
      done in the rural vallys of Friburg and Bern cantonsin Switzerland.
      To see a comparative analysis.

      There are about 10,000 Americans with my surame and the Menonite
      variance, with severval thousands more in France, Switzerlan and
      Germany. And several thousand more with allied surnames, as lat name
      were created in switzerland in the 13th century. This is just to say,
      there are more than the 14,000 of which you spoke. The father of
      14,000, is the son of 28,000 and so on.



      --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Howard"

      <dshoward@...> wrote:
      >
      > Steve Orlen raises an excellent point when he says leading experts
      no
      > longer favor a connection between Jewish Qs and the Khazarians.
      >
      > Here is the story of where the theory comes from and its current
      status.
      >
      > About July of 2006 when my first yDNA results were available I found
      > myself in a large group of confused men of Ashkenazim descent. My
      > family (Horowitz) is a Rabbinical line with the tradition of being
      > Levites that migrated to Central Europe from Girona, Spain.
      >
      > I called Bennett Greenspan, the CEO of Family Tree DNA and asked him
      > how could we all descended from a Siberian man if our ancestors were
      > Jewish.
      >
      > Off the top of his head he speculated that maybe the Khazarians had
      a
      > little Haplogroup Q yDNA among them when they converted and
      > intermarried. He suggested that we might be descendants of those
      > hypothetical Khazarian Qs.
      >
      > I went with this suggestion and published it widely among our group.
      >
      > In November 2006 I attended the Group Administrators' Conference put
      > on by Family Tree DNA in Houston, TX. I once again spoke with
      Bennett.
      > He suggested that I "buttonhole" Dr. Doron M. Behar who was in
      > attendance. Dr. Behar, based in Israel, is the lead author for most
      of
      > the scholarly articles in "Files" dealing with Ashkenazim yDNA.
      >
      > I did find Dr. Behar and he was very kind to spend time with me. I
      > asked him how we got to be Qs. I asked him specifically if he
      thought
      > the Khazarians were the source of our Q-ness.
      >
      > As best as I recall (and I have a terrible memory for these things,
      > just ask my wife) here is what he said, "I have looked at your
      data. I
      > do not favor the idea that the Khazarians had anything to do with
      it.
      > I think that the record will eventually show that you guys are all
      > descended from one man who lived about 900 years ago."(see end note
      **)
      >
      > Last October 2007, I once again attended the Group Administrators'
      > Conference in Houston and had the pleasure to meet in person my
      cousin
      > (on my mother's side), Rebekah Canada. She and I were having dinner
      > when Bennett Greenspan and Dr. Michael Hammer came up to us.
      > They were both a bit excited. As best I recall (I am sure Rebekah
      > remembers better) Dr. Hammer told us that he had found a
      > yDNA SNP that was unique to our group. He said that if his draft
      paper
      > were published the way it was then we would have a Subclade all of
      our
      > own, viz. Q-1-g. There has been a change and now if he is right we
      > will have our own Subclade of Q-1-b.
      >
      > Rebekah tells me the SNP Dr. Hammer was referring to is M378 for
      which
      > none of us has been tested.
      >
      > According to the 2008 classification M378 is downstream from P36.2
      > which is downstream from M242. (M242 (Q) >> P36.2 (Q1) >> M378
      (Q1b))
      > If you have been tested for M242 you remain a Q* until you test for
      > M378. If you have been tested for P36.2 and have it you are now Q1*
      > until you test positive for M378.
      >
      > The only article I have seen (found by Alessandro Biondo) shows the
      > M278 SNP downstream from SNP M120. I put the article up on this site
      > in "Files." It is the Sengupta 2005 article "yDNA Distributions in
      > India" (my title not his). He discusses the yDNA impact on Southern
      > Asians when Northern Asian Pastorialist (roaming tribes from
      > Afghanistan, India and Pakistan) moved south.
      >
      > Sengupta identified SNP M378 in the study discussed in this paper.
      In
      > the 2002 yDNA tree M378 (Q1a) was downstream from M120 (Q1). In the
      > 2008 yDNA tree M378 has been pulled out from under M120 and has the
      > new designation of Q1b.
      >
      > Did Sengupta et al err when they put M378 downstream from M120? This
      > is not discussed in the 2008 paper.
      >
      > We need Dr. Hammer and the others to publish their findings. I will
      > contact Bennett Greenspan and ask if he can do anything to
      accelerate
      > the release of this information. Scientists are very competitive.
      They
      > keep their data confidential as well as their conclusions prior to
      > publication.
      >
      > Bottom line, as of right now we don't know how we fit into the
      > family tree of mankind past the Q1 branch. We don't yet know how we
      > even got out on the Q1 branch.
      >
      > I bet you never thought anthropology could be so interesting!
      >
      > Best regards to all,
      >
      > Dave
      >
      > **If about half the 14 million Jewish people in the world today are
      of
      > Ashkenazi descent and if half are women and about 4% of the
      Ashkenazim
      > are Haplogroup Q then there are about 14,000 male Ashkenazi-Qs in
      the
      > world today. If 25 years makes a generation then in 900 years there
      > are 36 generations. Trust me, one man could easily have 14,000 male
      > descendants in this time frame.
      >
    • Alessandro Felice Biondo
      Dear all, I am the Alessandro Biondo cited by Dave about in his post. Let me add some ideas to the discussion about the origin of Q in Ashkenazim, and in non
      Message 2 of 7 , Jun 15, 2008
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        Dear all,
        I am the Alessandro Biondo cited by Dave about in his post. Let me
        add some ideas to the discussion about the origin of Q in Ashkenazim,
        and in non Ashkenazi European.
        First of all let me spend a word on the M378. As Rebekah and Dave
        already known, I was tested by Ethnoancestry for a series of SNP
        typical of the different Q subclades. In February EA reported I am
        positive for the M378 and negative for the M120, and in general I am
        positive for the M242 and the P36, and negative for the mutations of
        all the other Q's SNP I was tested. So there are two possibilities
        about the relations between M120 and M378: or the original study of
        Sengupta was wrong in positioning M378 downstream M120, or we carry
        a backward mutation on this SNP (but if this is the case we have also
        a backward mutation on MEH, and two backward mutation are excessive
        to be realistic).
        About the khazarian connection this is my thought.
        The Khazarian origin of Q is at present the more supported idea but,
        as all the theories, has strong points and weak points. The strong
        points are well explained by Mr Krupa in his works and his posts, and
        honestly we can say that this theory offer at present an answer for
        the presence of Q in Eastern European Ashkenazi. But I think it is
        necessary to add some word about the presence of Eastern European
        Ashkenazi in public databases. The Eastern European Ashkenazi are
        today well represented in the FTDNA and in general in public
        databases, so they are a well analyzed sample group, but I suspect
        also that all the public databases are a bit skewed toward this
        group, so the big picture is a bit less clear about other groups
        carrying the Q. In other words, if in public databases we have, for
        example 1000 men with Eastern European Ashkenazi roots, and only 100
        men from the Western European Ashkenazi group, and the presence of
        Q is 5% of all the Ashkenazi, as result we have 50 Q from the
        eastern group and only 5 from the western group: the picture that
        come out is that the eastern men seem more important, when we analyze
        the origin of Q, than the western. The results is that we tend to
        concentrate our attention on the origin of Q in the eastern group.
        This idea lead to what I think is the weak point of the Khazarian
        connection
        The weak point of this theory is that it fail to give a good answer
        to the presence of Q in the Western European Ashkenazi and among
        other Europeans. For example in the Behar study of the 2004
        (Contrasting patterns of Y chromosome variation in Ashkenazi Jewish
        and host non-Jewish European populations), in the Supplemental
        Material , are reported 23 samples carrying Q-P36: among these
        samples, 9 are from Western Europe, and the most represented country
        is German with 5 samples. Again, if you search in the YHRD databases,
        we can find that, on the 7 core marker of this database, there are a
        good number of samples from different part of the Europe and of
        western and central Asia with a genetic distance of 0 and 1 from the
        typical Ashkenazi Q haplotype. The question is: how can we give an
        answer to this geographical diffusion of this haplotype: are all the
        samples from some Jewish community? and the non-Jews of these samples
        are all descendant from some Jew-Khazarian merchant? For both the
        questions the only honest answer is that we don't know. For sure,
        because of the vast geographical area involved (Moroccan Berber from
        Northern Africa, Northern Europe, Southern Europe, the Levant,
        western Asia, Central Asia) and because of the number of peoples
        involved, it is a not so easy to answer that it is only the result of
        a eastern-Jewish or Jew-Khazarian diaspora.
        In short I think that the Khazarian connection is at present the only
        answer we have, even if it is not so strong to give us the final
        answer. I think that it will receive a good support only when and if
        it will give us an answer to all of the geographical diffusion of our
        typical Q type, not only the Eastern European Ashkenazi core
        presence. For this reason I think that other theories should be
        searched for, in parallel with the khazaria theory, to give to all of
        us the possibility to know more about our remote, historical roots.
        Thank you to all for your attention, and please excuse me if my
        English is not so good.
        Alessandro Biondo.


        --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Howard" <dshoward@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Steve Orlen raises an excellent point when he says leading experts
        no
        > longer favor a connection between Jewish Qs and the Khazarians.
        >
        > Here is the story of where the theory comes from and its current
        status.
        >
        > About July of 2006 when my first yDNA results were available I found
        > myself in a large group of confused men of Ashkenazim descent. My
        > family (Horowitz) is a Rabbinical line with the tradition of being
        > Levites that migrated to Central Europe from Girona, Spain.
        >
        > I called Bennett Greenspan, the CEO of Family Tree DNA and asked him
        > how could we all descended from a Siberian man if our ancestors were
        > Jewish.
        >
        > Off the top of his head he speculated that maybe the Khazarians had
        a
        > little Haplogroup Q yDNA among them when they converted and
        > intermarried. He suggested that we might be descendants of those
        > hypothetical Khazarian Qs.
        >
        > I went with this suggestion and published it widely among our group.
        >
        > In November 2006 I attended the Group Administrators' Conference put
        > on by Family Tree DNA in Houston, TX. I once again spoke with
        Bennett.
        > He suggested that I "buttonhole" Dr. Doron M. Behar who was in
        > attendance. Dr. Behar, based in Israel, is the lead author for most
        of
        > the scholarly articles in "Files" dealing with Ashkenazim yDNA.
        >
        > I did find Dr. Behar and he was very kind to spend time with me. I
        > asked him how we got to be Qs. I asked him specifically if he
        thought
        > the Khazarians were the source of our Q-ness.
        >
        > As best as I recall (and I have a terrible memory for these things,
        > just ask my wife) here is what he said, "I have looked at your
        data. I
        > do not favor the idea that the Khazarians had anything to do with
        it.
        > I think that the record will eventually show that you guys are all
        > descended from one man who lived about 900 years ago."(see end note
        **)
        >
        > Last October 2007, I once again attended the Group Administrators'
        > Conference in Houston and had the pleasure to meet in person my
        cousin
        > (on my mother's side), Rebekah Canada. She and I were having dinner
        > when Bennett Greenspan and Dr. Michael Hammer came up to us.
        > They were both a bit excited. As best I recall (I am sure Rebekah
        > remembers better) Dr. Hammer told us that he had found a
        > yDNA SNP that was unique to our group. He said that if his draft
        paper
        > were published the way it was then we would have a Subclade all of
        our
        > own, viz. Q-1-g. There has been a change and now if he is right we
        > will have our own Subclade of Q-1-b.
        >
        > Rebekah tells me the SNP Dr. Hammer was referring to is M378 for
        which
        > none of us has been tested.
        >
        > According to the 2008 classification M378 is downstream from P36.2
        > which is downstream from M242. (M242 (Q) >> P36.2 (Q1) >> M378
        (Q1b))
        > If you have been tested for M242 you remain a Q* until you test for
        > M378. If you have been tested for P36.2 and have it you are now Q1*
        > until you test positive for M378.
        >
        > The only article I have seen (found by Alessandro Biondo) shows the
        > M278 SNP downstream from SNP M120. I put the article up on this site
        > in "Files." It is the Sengupta 2005 article "yDNA Distributions in
        > India" (my title not his). He discusses the yDNA impact on Southern
        > Asians when Northern Asian Pastorialist (roaming tribes from
        > Afghanistan, India and Pakistan) moved south.
        >
        > Sengupta identified SNP M378 in the study discussed in this paper.
        In
        > the 2002 yDNA tree M378 (Q1a) was downstream from M120 (Q1). In the
        > 2008 yDNA tree M378 has been pulled out from under M120 and has the
        > new designation of Q1b.
        >
        > Did Sengupta et al err when they put M378 downstream from M120? This
        > is not discussed in the 2008 paper.
        >
        > We need Dr. Hammer and the others to publish their findings. I will
        > contact Bennett Greenspan and ask if he can do anything to
        accelerate
        > the release of this information. Scientists are very competitive.
        They
        > keep their data confidential as well as their conclusions prior to
        > publication.
        >
        > Bottom line, as of right now we don't know how we fit into the
        > family tree of mankind past the Q1 branch. We don't yet know how we
        > even got out on the Q1 branch.
        >
        > I bet you never thought anthropology could be so interesting!
        >
        > Best regards to all,
        >
        > Dave
        >
        > **If about half the 14 million Jewish people in the world today are
        of
        > Ashkenazi descent and if half are women and about 4% of the
        Ashkenazim
        > are Haplogroup Q then there are about 14,000 male Ashkenazi-Qs in
        the
        > world today. If 25 years makes a generation then in 900 years there
        > are 36 generations. Trust me, one man could easily have 14,000 male
        > descendants in this time frame.
        >
      • Alessandro Felice Biondo
        In general, to assign a birth place to a haplogroup, two methods are used. The first one is the today s geographical presence: for example the Q* group s
        Message 3 of 7 , Jun 15, 2008
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          In general, to assign a birth place to a haplogroup, two methods are
          used. The first one is the today's geographical presence: for
          example the Q* group's greatest presence is in Siberia and Central
          Asia and for this reason these area are supposed to be the place of
          birth of Q*. But the strong presence of a particular haplogroup is
          not unrelated to the populations numbers: when we have a low
          population density, the trend is toward a concentration on few group
          and this phenomenon can bring to badly fix the original place of
          birth. The second method used to infer the place of birth of a
          haplogroup, is the haplotype diversity: the place of birth is where
          the haplotype diversity is the greatest. Again this method can give
          bad results if in a geographical area there are big immigration flux,
          from different area, because an haplotype can evolve in an area, and
          after a few generation, move toward other area with other cousins
          (born elsewhere). The two methods alone are not perfect, and we can
          be pretty sure of the original place only if the two methods fix the
          same place. But what if they bring to different results?
          Please follow me in this idea: it's only a pure fictional idea, but
          even if I can't say to support it, I find it's very intriguing.
          If you look at two study on the middle-east (C. Cinnioglu: Excavating
          Y-chromosome haplotype strata in Anatolia; P.A. Zalloua: Y-
          Chromosomal Diversity in Lebanon Is Structured by Recent Historical
          Events, Supplemental Data), you can easily see that in the Middle
          East area there is a good haplotype diversity: in the Cinnioglu study
          is also estimated a TMRCA for the different Q of 23.000 years, and 4
          (out 10) of these Q carry the typical "ashkenazi Q" So, IF this high
          haplotype diversity is not the result of different immigration flux
          in that region, what can block us to imagine this region as the
          original place of the undifferentiated Q*? We can build a complete
          scenario from there, supported by this high haplotype differentiation
          in that area, that can answer to some problems that other theories
          fail to answer to(and yes, leaving unsolved other problem to which
          other theories give an answer). This is the scenario.
          The undifferentiated Q arose from the P (with its brother R) some
          25000/30000 years ago in the eastern Anatolia-southern Caucasus-
          northern Iraq area. In this area he faced the strong competition of
          other Y haplogroup: E, I, J, maybe the brother R. He was not so
          succesfull in the fight against the other group, but it found its
          way: he passed in Central Asia and from there in Siberia, and from
          Siberia to the Americas, during an age when, for the climatic
          conditions, this migration was achievable. This migration was done
          in geographical areas almost "virgin to mankind" so it has a good
          change to proliferate, and was also quick, so quick that the typical
          haplotype of the American Q retained some characteristic similar to
          the original one. When other haplogroups tried to pass in Central and
          Northern Asia the climatic condition worsened and this passage was
          more difficult for thousands of years , leaving Q* as one of the main
          group in this area even today; when the climate conditions were
          better also R (mostly R1a) and C (with other "Mongolic" haplogroups),
          strongly passed in Central Asia (mostly R) and Siberia-Mongolia
          (mostly the "Mongolic" haplogroups) and again Q was strongly
          defeated. In the western Asia and Europe, Q* had a more difficult
          life from its birth-days, and almost succumbed against the other
          haplogroups. Very few Q men survived, and they form the forefathers
          of todays "western" Q: the Ashkenazi Q, the Norse/Viking, and all the
          other small pocket of presence in Europe and Western Asia. The
          various haplotype we can found in this historical area are only the
          result of a long, local, evolution.
          I know, this is almost a fairytale, but it can explain some fact that
          other theories fails to answer to: the high haplotype differentiation
          in Anatolia-Levant-Western Asia area, the rare and almost unique
          presence in Europe- Middle East associated with a large geographical
          spread in that area (from Portugal to Morocco and Syria, from Sicily
          to Scotia and Denmark and Bruxelles, and so on), the presence in the
          Ashkenazi group as the result of an original Israelite Q-man living
          in Southern Europe (Greece, Italy or Spain) around 1000kya and then
          migrated north-way with other Israelite, the Levitic (ancient)
          tradition reported by most the the Ashkenazi Q.
          On the other side, other points need a deeper study. For example:
          what is the haplotype differentiation in Central Asia and Siberia? Is
          this differentiation greater or lower than in West Asia? The supposed
          quick passage in Central Asia-Siberia-America is compatible with the
          climatic conditions and the mobility of the mankind that time? And
          for sure there are a lot of other unresolved questions that this
          moment don't came to my mind.
          I repeat what I wrote at the beginning: this theory for me is only a
          good fictional exercise, but for sure one thing can be demonstrated:
          with the FEW facts we have today we can build many plausible
          scenarios, and all of those scenarios can have some strong points,
          but we must to not forget also the weak points: none of the scenario
          we can build today, the fantastic one I have pictured, or the
          Khazarian connection or the many other conceivable scenarios, can
          give us for sure the truth about our paternal, remote origin. Today
          we can only spy through the keyhole, and hope to see as many details
          as possible. But tomorrow maybe, with some advancement in research,
          we hope to know for sure what today we can only imagine.

          Alessandro Biondo.



          --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Howard" <dshoward@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > Steve Orlen raises an excellent point when he says leading experts
          no
          > longer favor a connection between Jewish Qs and the Khazarians.
          >
          > Here is the story of where the theory comes from and its current
          status.
          >
          > About July of 2006 when my first yDNA results were available I found
          > myself in a large group of confused men of Ashkenazim descent. My
          > family (Horowitz) is a Rabbinical line with the tradition of being
          > Levites that migrated to Central Europe from Girona, Spain.
          >
          > I called Bennett Greenspan, the CEO of Family Tree DNA and asked him
          > how could we all descended from a Siberian man if our ancestors were
          > Jewish.
          >
          > Off the top of his head he speculated that maybe the Khazarians had
          a
          > little Haplogroup Q yDNA among them when they converted and
          > intermarried. He suggested that we might be descendants of those
          > hypothetical Khazarian Qs.
          >
          > I went with this suggestion and published it widely among our group.
          >
          > In November 2006 I attended the Group Administrators' Conference put
          > on by Family Tree DNA in Houston, TX. I once again spoke with
          Bennett.
          > He suggested that I "buttonhole" Dr. Doron M. Behar who was in
          > attendance. Dr. Behar, based in Israel, is the lead author for most
          of
          > the scholarly articles in "Files" dealing with Ashkenazim yDNA.
          >
          > I did find Dr. Behar and he was very kind to spend time with me. I
          > asked him how we got to be Qs. I asked him specifically if he
          thought
          > the Khazarians were the source of our Q-ness.
          >
          > As best as I recall (and I have a terrible memory for these things,
          > just ask my wife) here is what he said, "I have looked at your
          data. I
          > do not favor the idea that the Khazarians had anything to do with
          it.
          > I think that the record will eventually show that you guys are all
          > descended from one man who lived about 900 years ago."(see end note
          **)
          >
          > Last October 2007, I once again attended the Group Administrators'
          > Conference in Houston and had the pleasure to meet in person my
          cousin
          > (on my mother's side), Rebekah Canada. She and I were having dinner
          > when Bennett Greenspan and Dr. Michael Hammer came up to us.
          > They were both a bit excited. As best I recall (I am sure Rebekah
          > remembers better) Dr. Hammer told us that he had found a
          > yDNA SNP that was unique to our group. He said that if his draft
          paper
          > were published the way it was then we would have a Subclade all of
          our
          > own, viz. Q-1-g. There has been a change and now if he is right we
          > will have our own Subclade of Q-1-b.
          >
          > Rebekah tells me the SNP Dr. Hammer was referring to is M378 for
          which
          > none of us has been tested.
          >
          > According to the 2008 classification M378 is downstream from P36.2
          > which is downstream from M242. (M242 (Q) >> P36.2 (Q1) >> M378
          (Q1b))
          > If you have been tested for M242 you remain a Q* until you test for
          > M378. If you have been tested for P36.2 and have it you are now Q1*
          > until you test positive for M378.
          >
          > The only article I have seen (found by Alessandro Biondo) shows the
          > M278 SNP downstream from SNP M120. I put the article up on this site
          > in "Files." It is the Sengupta 2005 article "yDNA Distributions in
          > India" (my title not his). He discusses the yDNA impact on Southern
          > Asians when Northern Asian Pastorialist (roaming tribes from
          > Afghanistan, India and Pakistan) moved south.
          >
          > Sengupta identified SNP M378 in the study discussed in this paper.
          In
          > the 2002 yDNA tree M378 (Q1a) was downstream from M120 (Q1). In the
          > 2008 yDNA tree M378 has been pulled out from under M120 and has the
          > new designation of Q1b.
          >
          > Did Sengupta et al err when they put M378 downstream from M120? This
          > is not discussed in the 2008 paper.
          >
          > We need Dr. Hammer and the others to publish their findings. I will
          > contact Bennett Greenspan and ask if he can do anything to
          accelerate
          > the release of this information. Scientists are very competitive.
          They
          > keep their data confidential as well as their conclusions prior to
          > publication.
          >
          > Bottom line, as of right now we don't know how we fit into the
          > family tree of mankind past the Q1 branch. We don't yet know how we
          > even got out on the Q1 branch.
          >
          > I bet you never thought anthropology could be so interesting!
          >
          > Best regards to all,
          >
          > Dave
          >
          > **If about half the 14 million Jewish people in the world today are
          of
          > Ashkenazi descent and if half are women and about 4% of the
          Ashkenazim
          > are Haplogroup Q then there are about 14,000 male Ashkenazi-Qs in
          the
          > world today. If 25 years makes a generation then in 900 years there
          > are 36 generations. Trust me, one man could easily have 14,000 male
          > descendants in this time frame.
          >
        • Alessandro Felice Biondo
          Dear Mr Krupa, let me confirm that I think the Middle Ages eastern invaders (Khazars, but also Avars, Bulgars, and Huns), as the more likely source of my (and
          Message 4 of 7 , Jun 15, 2008
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            Dear Mr Krupa,
            let me confirm that I think the Middle Ages eastern invaders
            (Khazars, but also Avars, Bulgars, and Huns), as the more likely
            source of my (and yours) particular Q, and for this reason as you
            know, I am a member of your FTDNA project. But also I think that not
            all of we know today of the diffusion of our particular Q can be
            explained with the Khazarian connection alone. We deal with so
            distant, so complex, and not so well understood facts, that we can't
            be totally sure of the true history: for this I prefer to be free to
            elaborate and examine also different, sometimes strange, ideas.
            I am aware that what is in discussion is not the general Q, but our
            particular Q. I think also that the big picture of all the Q can give
            us some hints about our particular Q: it's necessary to concentrate
            our attention on the particular, but it's better that the big picture
            is not lost.
            In your post you write that you are from Hvar, a fact that I consider
            important for me. Hoping to not go off-topics, I ask you more
            information about what you know of the Q in Hvar. I am much
            interested for three reasons:
            - In Hvar and Korcula (L. Barac: Y chromosome STRs in
            Croatians), and in Central and Eastern Turkey (C. Cinnioglu:
            Excavating Y-chromosome haplotype strata in Anatolia) I have the
            nearest matches among the scientific papers I know;
            - Hvar was under the Venetian rule for centuries, and the most
            ancient testimonial of my surname is in Venice, in the ending of the
            1200's. Venetians were the most important traders that times, and for
            this reason I always considered a merchant connection through Venice
            as a good idea. I can add that the more ancient Biondo in Sicily
            (were my family is from), the years around 1400's, were traders.
            - Hvar, when under the Venetian rule, was the birth place of
            Giovanni Francesco Biondi (Ivan Franje Bjundovic in Croatian) a
            famous writer in the years around 1600. I know also of a Giovanni
            Biondi (Biondich ?) from Korcula as protestant priest in London the
            years around 1600, maybe the same person or maybe a relative of the
            former. It is interesting because Biondi is the plural form (in
            Italian) and the genitive form (in Latin) of my surname.
            Please, let me know what you know about Q in Hvar and Korcula, and
            feel free to reply privately to my email address (that you already
            know because I am a member of your group in FTDNA) if you prefer.

            Thank you very much.

            Alessandro Biondo.


            --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, KRUPA <mladen.krupa@...> wrote:
            >
            > Dear Mr.Biondo,
            >
            > Thank You for such a long discussion.
            >
            > For me picture is not so murky.
            > We must look on haplogroup and haplotype matches in the same
            > time.
            > We should not care too much on distant haplotype matches as they
            > describe different time frame then this particular one-
            > cca.700-1.000 years ago. Also, we dont need to explain this
            > distant matches ancestors journey (for our purpose).
            > For example; there is number of Q's in Finland, but they have
            > nothing to do with us (no matches in haplotype). Finnish tribe
            > moved from Central Asia together with Hungars (where we also
            > have low number of Q's) from Central Asia.
            > So our geographic origin is similar, and confirm our statements
            > about primary origin.
            > Other pockets of Q's (including Island of Hvar in Croatia/where I
            > live/ with highest number of Q's in total population)shows some
            > other time frame and some other group of people with ancestral
            > origin in Central/North Asia.
            > Our matches from Asia describes our fathers travel from South
            > Siberia/North China via Silk Road,to Khazarian area (South
            > Russia),to Eastern Europe, then to Western Europe trough several
            > ways.
            > Just to add that in area where current Q's reside in South
            > Scandinavia, Khazarian artefacts has been found and detected.
            > You have probably heard about Khazarian coin with inscription
            > "Moses God's Prophet"?
            > In my exact matches list there is a few people who knows that
            > families converted from Judaism /Hungary,Poland /, and some
            > suspected on such event.
            > Finnaly, in any case there is really small number of "us", Jews
            > or no Jews".(To compare there is one member (one other
            > haplogroup) of my project with over 725 exact 12/12 markers
            > matches!)
            >
            >
            > Alfred Krupa
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Citiram Alessandro Felice Biondo <alefbiondo@...>:
            >
            > > Dear all,
            > > I am the Alessandro Biondo cited by Dave about in his post. Let me
            > > add some ideas to the discussion about the origin of Q in
            Ashkenazim,
            > > and in non Ashkenazi European.
            > > First of all let me spend a word on the M378. As Rebekah and Dave
            > > already known, I was tested by Ethnoancestry for a series of SNP
            > > typical of the different Q subclades. In February EA reported I am
            > > positive for the M378 and negative for the M120, and in general I
            am
            > > positive for the M242 and the P36, and negative for the mutations
            of
            > > all the other Q's SNP I was tested. So there are two
            possibilities
            > > about the relations between M120 and M378: or the original study
            of
            > > Sengupta was wrong in positioning M378 downstream M120, or we
            carry
            > > a backward mutation on this SNP (but if this is the case we have
            also
            > > a backward mutation on MEH, and two backward mutation are
            excessive
            > > to be realistic).
            > > About the khazarian connection this is my thought.
            > > The Khazarian origin of Q is at present the more supported idea
            but,
            > > as all the theories, has strong points and weak points. The strong
            > > points are well explained by Mr Krupa in his works and his posts,
            and
            > > honestly we can say that this theory offer at present an answer
            for
            > > the presence of Q in Eastern European Ashkenazi. But I think it is
            > > necessary to add some word about the presence of Eastern European
            > > Ashkenazi in public databases. The Eastern European Ashkenazi are
            > > today well represented in the FTDNA and in general in public
            > > databases, so they are a well analyzed sample group, but I
            suspect
            > > also that all the public databases are a bit skewed toward this
            > > group, so the big picture is a bit less clear about other groups
            > > carrying the Q. In other words, if in public databases we have,
            for
            > > example 1000 men with Eastern European Ashkenazi roots, and only
            100
            > > men from the Western European Ashkenazi group, and the presence of
            > > Q is 5% of all the Ashkenazi, as result we have 50 Q from the
            > > eastern group and only 5 from the western group: the picture that
            > > come out is that the eastern men seem more important, when we
            analyze
            > > the origin of Q, than the western. The results is that we tend to
            > > concentrate our attention on the origin of Q in the eastern group.
            > > This idea lead to what I think is the weak point of the Khazarian
            > > connection
            > > The weak point of this theory is that it fail to give a good
            answer
            > > to the presence of Q in the Western European Ashkenazi and among
            > > other Europeans. For example in the Behar study of the 2004
            > > (Contrasting patterns of Y chromosome variation in Ashkenazi
            Jewish
            > > and host non-Jewish European populations), in the Supplemental
            > > Material , are reported 23 samples carrying Q-P36: among these
            > > samples, 9 are from Western Europe, and the most represented
            country
            > > is German with 5 samples. Again, if you search in the YHRD
            databases,
            > > we can find that, on the 7 core marker of this database, there
            are a
            > > good number of samples from different part of the Europe and of
            > > western and central Asia with a genetic distance of 0 and 1 from
            the
            > > typical Ashkenazi Q haplotype. The question is: how can we give an
            > > answer to this geographical diffusion of this haplotype: are all
            the
            > > samples from some Jewish community? and the non-Jews of these
            samples
            > > are all descendant from some Jew-Khazarian merchant? For both the
            > > questions the only honest answer is that we don't know. For sure,
            > > because of the vast geographical area involved (Moroccan Berber
            from
            > > Northern Africa, Northern Europe, Southern Europe, the Levant,
            > > western Asia, Central Asia) and because of the number of peoples
            > > involved, it is a not so easy to answer that it is only the
            result of
            > > a eastern-Jewish or Jew-Khazarian diaspora.
            > > In short I think that the Khazarian connection is at present the
            only
            > > answer we have, even if it is not so strong to give us the final
            > > answer. I think that it will receive a good support only when and
            if
            > > it will give us an answer to all of the geographical diffusion of
            our
            > > typical Q type, not only the Eastern European Ashkenazi core
            > > presence. For this reason I think that other theories should be
            > > searched for, in parallel with the khazaria theory, to give to
            all of
            > > us the possibility to know more about our remote, historical
            roots.
            > > Thank you to all for your attention, and please excuse me if my
            > > English is not so good.
            > > Alessandro Biondo.
            > >
            > >
            > > --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Howard" <dshoward@>
            > > wrote:
            > >>
            > >> Steve Orlen raises an excellent point when he says leading
            experts
            > > no
            > >> longer favor a connection between Jewish Qs and the Khazarians.
            > >>
            > >> Here is the story of where the theory comes from and its current
            > > status.
            > >>
            > >> About July of 2006 when my first yDNA results were available I
            found
            > >> myself in a large group of confused men of Ashkenazim descent. My
            > >> family (Horowitz) is a Rabbinical line with the tradition of
            being
            > >> Levites that migrated to Central Europe from Girona, Spain.
            > >>
            > >> I called Bennett Greenspan, the CEO of Family Tree DNA and asked
            him
            > >> how could we all descended from a Siberian man if our ancestors
            were
            > >> Jewish.
            > >>
            > >> Off the top of his head he speculated that maybe the Khazarians
            had
            > > a
            > >> little Haplogroup Q yDNA among them when they converted and
            > >> intermarried. He suggested that we might be descendants of those
            > >> hypothetical Khazarian Qs.
            > >>
            > >> I went with this suggestion and published it widely among our
            group.
            > >>
            > >> In November 2006 I attended the Group Administrators' Conference
            put
            > >> on by Family Tree DNA in Houston, TX. I once again spoke with
            > > Bennett.
            > >> He suggested that I "buttonhole" Dr. Doron M. Behar who was in
            > >> attendance. Dr. Behar, based in Israel, is the lead author for
            most
            > > of
            > >> the scholarly articles in "Files" dealing with Ashkenazim yDNA.
            > >>
            > >> I did find Dr. Behar and he was very kind to spend time with me.
            I
            > >> asked him how we got to be Qs. I asked him specifically if he
            > > thought
            > >> the Khazarians were the source of our Q-ness.
            > >>
            > >> As best as I recall (and I have a terrible memory for these
            things,
            > >> just ask my wife) here is what he said, "I have looked at your
            > > data. I
            > >> do not favor the idea that the Khazarians had anything to do with
            > > it.
            > >> I think that the record will eventually show that you guys are
            all
            > >> descended from one man who lived about 900 years ago."(see end
            note
            > > **)
            > >>
            > >> Last October 2007, I once again attended the Group
            Administrators'
            > >> Conference in Houston and had the pleasure to meet in person my
            > > cousin
            > >> (on my mother's side), Rebekah Canada. She and I were having
            dinner
            > >> when Bennett Greenspan and Dr. Michael Hammer came up to us.
            > >> They were both a bit excited. As best I recall (I am sure Rebekah
            > >> remembers better) Dr. Hammer told us that he had found a
            > >> yDNA SNP that was unique to our group. He said that if his draft
            > > paper
            > >> were published the way it was then we would have a Subclade all
            of
            > > our
            > >> own, viz. Q-1-g. There has been a change and now if he is right
            we
            > >> will have our own Subclade of Q-1-b.
            > >>
            > >> Rebekah tells me the SNP Dr. Hammer was referring to is M378 for
            > > which
            > >> none of us has been tested.
            > >>
            > >> According to the 2008 classification M378 is downstream from
            P36.2
            > >> which is downstream from M242. (M242 (Q) >> P36.2 (Q1) >> M378
            > > (Q1b))
            > >> If you have been tested for M242 you remain a Q* until you test
            for
            > >> M378. If you have been tested for P36.2 and have it you are now
            Q1*
            > >> until you test positive for M378.
            > >>
            > >> The only article I have seen (found by Alessandro Biondo) shows
            the
            > >> M278 SNP downstream from SNP M120. I put the article up on this
            site
            > >> in "Files." It is the Sengupta 2005 article "yDNA Distributions
            in
            > >> India" (my title not his). He discusses the yDNA impact on
            Southern
            > >> Asians when Northern Asian Pastorialist (roaming tribes from
            > >> Afghanistan, India and Pakistan) moved south.
            > >>
            > >> Sengupta identified SNP M378 in the study discussed in this
            paper.
            > > In
            > >> the 2002 yDNA tree M378 (Q1a) was downstream from M120 (Q1). In
            the
            > >> 2008 yDNA tree M378 has been pulled out from under M120 and has
            the
            > >> new designation of Q1b.
            > >>
            > >> Did Sengupta et al err when they put M378 downstream from M120?
            This
            > >> is not discussed in the 2008 paper.
            > >>
            > >> We need Dr. Hammer and the others to publish their findings. I
            will
            > >> contact Bennett Greenspan and ask if he can do anything to
            > > accelerate
            > >> the release of this information. Scientists are very competitive.
            > > They
            > >> keep their data confidential as well as their conclusions prior
            to
            > >> publication.
            > >>
            > >> Bottom line, as of right now we don't know how we fit into the
            > >> family tree of mankind past the Q1 branch. We don't yet know how
            we
            > >> even got out on the Q1 branch.
            > >>
            > >> I bet you never thought anthropology could be so interesting!
            > >>
            > >> Best regards to all,
            > >>
            > >> Dave
            > >>
            > >> **If about half the 14 million Jewish people in the world today
            are
            > > of
            > >> Ashkenazi descent and if half are women and about 4% of the
            > > Ashkenazim
            > >> are Haplogroup Q then there are about 14,000 male Ashkenazi-Qs in
            > > the
            > >> world today. If 25 years makes a generation then in 900 years
            there
            > >> are 36 generations. Trust me, one man could easily have 14,000
            male
            > >> descendants in this time frame.
            > >>
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            > ---------------------- T - C o m - - W e b m a i l -----------------
            -----
            > Ova poruka poslana je upotrebom T-Com Webmail usluge
            > Uzivajte u shoppingu ne napustajuci udobnost svoga doma!
            > http://shopping.tportal.hr
            >
          • Alessandro Felice Biondo
            Reading the posts following my comments, it seems to me that the lenght of my comments highlighted some parts and shaded some other. Please let me highlight
            Message 5 of 7 , Jun 15, 2008
            • 0 Attachment
              Reading the posts following my comments, it seems to me that the
              lenght of my comments highlighted some parts and shaded some other.
              Please let me highlight that even if I tried to see the big picture
              of the Q (based on SNP), I commented extensively also our particular
              haplotype, based on STR. This is precisely what I did when I wrote
              about the YHRD database (a public database of haplotypes, not
              haplogroup), commenting that here you can find many matches to our
              haplotype all around Europe and Western Asia. I cited also the data
              from the paper of Behar, where the author deals with STR marker.
              Again I created the "fairytale" of Q to permit us to view that with
              the FEW data we known today, we can imagine the origin of our
              particular Q in Khazaria but also outside from Khazaria, and in
              particular in the Middle Eastern area where, in the study of Zalloua
              and Cinnioglu I cited, you can easily find some interesting matches
              to our Q haplotype (STR), side by side with some, more different Q
              haplotypes (that's precisely the haplotype diversity). So I dealt
              extensively on our haplotype, not only with the general Q that I used
              only as a general frame: my purpose, and my writing, was not to deal
              with the origin of mankind, but only with the origin of our haplotype.
              So if all the scientist today agree (and we agree with them,
              obviously) that we are all descendant from African soil, the same
              scientist today haven't such extensively shared theory about our
              particular Q; and if the scientist haven't it yet, how can we sure
              of our theory?

              Alessandro Biondo.


              --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Howard" <dshoward@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > Steve Orlen raises an excellent point when he says leading experts
              no
              > longer favor a connection between Jewish Qs and the Khazarians.
              >
              > Here is the story of where the theory comes from and its current
              status.
              >
              > About July of 2006 when my first yDNA results were available I found
              > myself in a large group of confused men of Ashkenazim descent. My
              > family (Horowitz) is a Rabbinical line with the tradition of being
              > Levites that migrated to Central Europe from Girona, Spain.
              >
              > I called Bennett Greenspan, the CEO of Family Tree DNA and asked him
              > how could we all descended from a Siberian man if our ancestors were
              > Jewish.
              >
              > Off the top of his head he speculated that maybe the Khazarians had
              a
              > little Haplogroup Q yDNA among them when they converted and
              > intermarried. He suggested that we might be descendants of those
              > hypothetical Khazarian Qs.
              >
              > I went with this suggestion and published it widely among our group.
              >
              > In November 2006 I attended the Group Administrators' Conference put
              > on by Family Tree DNA in Houston, TX. I once again spoke with
              Bennett.
              > He suggested that I "buttonhole" Dr. Doron M. Behar who was in
              > attendance. Dr. Behar, based in Israel, is the lead author for most
              of
              > the scholarly articles in "Files" dealing with Ashkenazim yDNA.
              >
              > I did find Dr. Behar and he was very kind to spend time with me. I
              > asked him how we got to be Qs. I asked him specifically if he
              thought
              > the Khazarians were the source of our Q-ness.
              >
              > As best as I recall (and I have a terrible memory for these things,
              > just ask my wife) here is what he said, "I have looked at your
              data. I
              > do not favor the idea that the Khazarians had anything to do with
              it.
              > I think that the record will eventually show that you guys are all
              > descended from one man who lived about 900 years ago."(see end note
              **)
              >
              > Last October 2007, I once again attended the Group Administrators'
              > Conference in Houston and had the pleasure to meet in person my
              cousin
              > (on my mother's side), Rebekah Canada. She and I were having dinner
              > when Bennett Greenspan and Dr. Michael Hammer came up to us.
              > They were both a bit excited. As best I recall (I am sure Rebekah
              > remembers better) Dr. Hammer told us that he had found a
              > yDNA SNP that was unique to our group. He said that if his draft
              paper
              > were published the way it was then we would have a Subclade all of
              our
              > own, viz. Q-1-g. There has been a change and now if he is right we
              > will have our own Subclade of Q-1-b.
              >
              > Rebekah tells me the SNP Dr. Hammer was referring to is M378 for
              which
              > none of us has been tested.
              >
              > According to the 2008 classification M378 is downstream from P36.2
              > which is downstream from M242. (M242 (Q) >> P36.2 (Q1) >> M378
              (Q1b))
              > If you have been tested for M242 you remain a Q* until you test for
              > M378. If you have been tested for P36.2 and have it you are now Q1*
              > until you test positive for M378.
              >
              > The only article I have seen (found by Alessandro Biondo) shows the
              > M278 SNP downstream from SNP M120. I put the article up on this site
              > in "Files." It is the Sengupta 2005 article "yDNA Distributions in
              > India" (my title not his). He discusses the yDNA impact on Southern
              > Asians when Northern Asian Pastorialist (roaming tribes from
              > Afghanistan, India and Pakistan) moved south.
              >
              > Sengupta identified SNP M378 in the study discussed in this paper.
              In
              > the 2002 yDNA tree M378 (Q1a) was downstream from M120 (Q1). In the
              > 2008 yDNA tree M378 has been pulled out from under M120 and has the
              > new designation of Q1b.
              >
              > Did Sengupta et al err when they put M378 downstream from M120? This
              > is not discussed in the 2008 paper.
              >
              > We need Dr. Hammer and the others to publish their findings. I will
              > contact Bennett Greenspan and ask if he can do anything to
              accelerate
              > the release of this information. Scientists are very competitive.
              They
              > keep their data confidential as well as their conclusions prior to
              > publication.
              >
              > Bottom line, as of right now we don't know how we fit into the
              > family tree of mankind past the Q1 branch. We don't yet know how we
              > even got out on the Q1 branch.
              >
              > I bet you never thought anthropology could be so interesting!
              >
              > Best regards to all,
              >
              > Dave
              >
              > **If about half the 14 million Jewish people in the world today are
              of
              > Ashkenazi descent and if half are women and about 4% of the
              Ashkenazim
              > are Haplogroup Q then there are about 14,000 male Ashkenazi-Qs in
              the
              > world today. If 25 years makes a generation then in 900 years there
              > are 36 generations. Trust me, one man could easily have 14,000 male
              > descendants in this time frame.
              >
            • Eben Haber
              Hello Cousins, I got the Deep Clade results back, which say that I m Q1b. Interestingly, the results page list 12 Marker exact matches, and they include one Q,
              Message 6 of 7 , Aug 26, 2008
              • 0 Attachment
                Hello Cousins,

                I got the Deep Clade results back, which say that I'm Q1b.

                Interestingly, the results page list 12 Marker exact matches, and they
                include one Q, 11 Q1s, and two Q1bs. It doesn't list 25 or 37 marker
                matches, I don't know if that's because they haven't been tested, or
                if they just don't list them.

                What exactly does it mean to have an exact 12 Marker Match who is in a
                different Haplogroup? That the 12-marker match happened before the
                haplogroup split off? That they converged by chance?

                Thanks,

                -Eben Haber
              • christopher baysinger
                I got mine back as well, Q1b. Christopher D. Baysinger, cdbaysinger@hotmail.com Dance like no one is watching. Sing like no one is listening. Love like you ve
                Message 7 of 7 , Aug 26, 2008
                • 0 Attachment
                  I got mine back as well, Q1b.

                  Christopher D. Baysinger, cdbaysinger@...

                  Dance like no one is watching. Sing like no one is listening. Love like you've never been hurt and live like it's heaven on Earth.

                       Mark Twain

                  A man can be free without being great, but no man can be great without being free.

                       Kahlil Gibran




                  To: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com
                  From: eben@...
                  Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 07:34:51 -0700
                  Subject: [Ashkenazi-Q] It looks li Sendke I'm Q1b....

                  Hello Cousins,

                  I got the Deep Clade results back, which say that I'm Q1b.

                  Interestingly, the results page list 12 Marker exact matches, and they
                  include one Q, 11 Q1s, and two Q1bs. It doesn't list 25 or 37 marker
                  matches, I don't know if that's because they haven't been tested, or
                  if they just don't list them.

                  What exactly does it mean to have an exact 12 Marker Match who is in a
                  different Haplogroup? That the 12-marker match happened before the
                  haplogroup split off? That they converged by chance?

                  Thanks,

                  -Eben Haber



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