Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: David Pelter's DNA
- Hi Janet,Buying surnames has been told about in history books. Jews in Eastern Europe were still using the method of saying they were Moshe ben Avraham, Moses, son of Abraham. They didn't use surnames. For tax purposes, the army, etc, they had to have surnames for the state. Information in "Finding Our Fathers, a guidebook to Jewish genealogy by Dan Rottenberg page 49-53 on names. I'm not taking time to read the pages again right now, but remember reading someplace that they did buy names and that a name like Gold...was very expensive and that there were names that were much cheaper. There were some East European families that did maintain family names, however. Since I have found Goldfoot family on the East coast that are not Jewish and have a completely different dna haplogroup and different pattern of naming people as I found in the LDS library online, I have a feeling that my ancestor copied their surname for some reason. They did go back to a part of Germany, in there somewhere. I know that Jews have migrated through Germany and on up to Eastern Europe as well as one highway to get there, so wondered if we hadn't been there already.Nadene----- Original Message -----From: Janette SilvermanSent: Friday, August 17, 2012 7:44 PMSubject: Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: David Pelter's DNA
I'm not at all sure that just because the surname was German meant the family came from Germany, and I am also not sure that you can categorically say that Eastern European Jews had to buy their surnames.
JanetteOn 8/17/2012 6:14 PM, NADENE GOLDFOOT wrote:Hi Albert,That sounds very logical. Having this German name must have meant we were in Germany first before going up to Poland/Lithuania and they Yiddishized it to Goldfus. Eastern European Jews without surnames had to buy theirs, and the better the name the more expensive it cost. I figured that getting Goldfus the family had to be in gold somehow or other, either looking for it or being in the business one way or other. I know that some Jews who had finally settled in Eastern Europe were invited back to the Ottoman Empire to help out with their finances. We have gone back and forth for many reasons, it looks like until we're kicked out again.Nadene----- Original Message -----From: Albert BenhamouSent: Friday, August 17, 2012 5:47 PMSubject: Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: David Pelter's DNAHelloI believe that many Jews established long ago in Lithuania actually came from German-speaking region of Konigsberg (now called Kaliningrad) in what used to be Eastern Prussia.Same goes for some parts of Poland were Jews arrived there from Eastern German provinces (such as Silesia) and moved to a more welcoming Poland in the first part of the 19th century. These Jews were joined later in the 19th century by other Jews who came from western Russian Empire provinces (Ukraine, etc) running away from the pogroms, the expulsions, etc.Also, some Ashkenazi Jews from Poland, Lithuania, etc. actually have Sephardi origin because they arrived in the Baltic region much earlier, at the time of the Spanish Inquisition. So Jewish names such as Nudel actually came from Spain, where they used to be Nadal (like the tennis man). Some Sephardi names had to be changed to something the new state would be able to pronounce or use for tax purposes: so Jews from all origins had to adopt names by job (Goldfuss would have been a gold/jewellery dealer, Bernstein was someone who dealt in the amber stone trade, Glass/Glaz as a glazier, etc).This may explain why we find Q-haplogroup among Ashkenazim today: their ancestors probably came from Spain/Portugal who fled after 1492, and the ancestors of those were probably settled in Northern Africa before crossing to Moorish Spain where business and trade was thriving, and remained there after the departure of the Moors (until they got expelled in 1492, and went to Northern Europe and even farther to the Baltic region).AlbertHi David,Yes, you did come up as a match at the 37 allele level with us and I looked at the TP report which said that at 28 generations of a distance (and I figure 25 years to a generation), we were connected as a family 700 years ago or in the 1300's but with only a 76.64% possibility. At a distance of 4 generations we only had a 7.18% possiblity. To find out who your matches are and more about it, it's best to take the test up to the 67 alleles. I started with 25 as I had another person we were making comparisons with, went to 37 and then 67 slowly. It was easier on the wallet that way for me. Where did your father's family come from? Mine came from Telsiai, Lithuania, but our surname, Goldfoot, was Goldfus, and Goldfuss is German. I have a feeling they migrated up from Germany to Lithuania.Nadene Goldfoot