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Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] Are All Segals Closely Related? - Probably Not!

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  • NADENE GOLDFOOT
    Dave, From what I ve read about Levites and Cohens, the Levites found today are not all of one haplogroup. A community may have been in need of a Levite
    Message 1 of 17 , Sep 1 6:13 PM
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      Dave,
      From what I've read about Levites and Cohens, the Levites  found today  are not all  of one haplogroup.  A community may have been in need of a Levite and had to choose among their group someone to act in that place.  The order is that first a Cohen reads from the Torah and then a Levite, and I think then from the group of Israelites which would be anyone else.  Yet the Cohens are still a distinct group of J1's and some are J2's.  Tudor Parfitt in his book, The Lost ark of the Covenant tells about the Lemba people in Africa who were found to be of  the Cohen haplogroup and an oral history of some connection. 
       
      Learning about the translation of "Segal" makes me wonder what their haplogroup might be.   It's an interesting bit of  language involving history. 
      Nadene Goldfoot
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Dave
      Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 5:42 PM
      Subject: [Ashkenazi-Q] Are All Segals Closely Related? - Probably Not!

       



      You might find this discussion interesting if you have some version of Segal in your family name.

      Segal is a title meaning Levite which has been attached to the family names of Jewish people with the tradition of being Levites for nearly a thousand years.

      It is not itself a surname. It is like being named John the Gun Smith, or John the Gold Smith, or John the Tin Smith, and they all later drop the word before Smith and just use the surname Smith.

      You can imagine that before surnames were common among Jewish people (about 225 years ago and before) we were all ben (son of) or bat (daughter of) someone.

      So I might be David ben Hershel Segal meaning David son of Harry the Levite.

      HaLevi also means The Levite. HaLevi is not really a surname either. I can show you family tombstones that have HaLevi on it merely as a title.

      Thus if someone says that all Segals are related the relationship may be very very distant since the Levites ultimately are legendary descendants of Levi one of the 12 sons of Jacob whose name was changed to Israel. Accordingly to the Bible, Levi lived about 3,500 years ago.

      Moses and Aaron were descendants of Levi and were Levites. The descendants of Aaron are very important Levites in that only the direct descendants of Aaron may be high priests in the temple if it is ever rebuilt. These men carry the title of Cohan.

      All Cohans are Levites but only a small group of the Levites are Cohans.

      The Levites were the priestly group but the elite Levites are the Cohanim who are the high priestly group.

      Dave Howard

      Reference: A Dictionary of Jewish Surnames From The Russian Empire by Alexander Beider.

    • NADENE GOLDFOOT
      Gene, Hurry up and have your dna tested with familytree in Houston, Texas so we won t be kept in suspense. If there isn t already a group started with your
      Message 2 of 17 , Sep 1 6:20 PM
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        Gene,
        Hurry up and have your dna tested with familytree in Houston, Texas so we won't be kept in suspense.  If there isn't already a group started with your surname, you can start one and be the administrator for it. (volunteer position).  The company will send you a book "DNA & GENEALOGY" by Collen Fitzpatrick & Andrew Yeiser. Well, I'm not sure but they might send it to Russia.   I've read it through at least 3 times and just starting to catch on.  Then you can do what you have planned to find out about this surname and the people.  It sounds like a great project.  Facebook is a great place to find relatives.  I've found several that way. 
        Good luck.
        Nadene Goldfoot
        Administrator of surname: Goldfoot with familytree.
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Gene 1
        Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2011 10:32 PM
        Subject: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Speaking of Segal, Levine and Halevi

         

        I kinda agree with you on most parts. I think all Shagal, Sagals, Shagalov's are related. As far as testing for DNA of a group that was big, with many different subgroups, and that has not been arround for a thousand years, should be taken with a grain of salt. But from another perspective, from everything I have read, I think people in my family look stereotypical like Khazar's described by Arab writers, reddish or strawberry blonde hair, light features, and really good looking (hehehe, j/k). Either way, we can fight and argue left and right all day long, and all it is, is speculation at best. But I am always on the prowl for Shagals, Sagals, and Shagaloviches, so please find me on facebook. I have found other Shagals who are not related to me, and they all come from the same place, usually either from or near Vitebsk, Belarus. And a lot look similar too (who would have thought? right?). I would like to construct an "extended Shagal tree that encompasses all th e different branches, and see how far back we can all construct it (the sooner the better, while elder generations are still around)

        Look for me using my name: Gene Shagal or my email: genecps@...

      • Gene 1
        Nadine, I got paid so far for one week out of 6 weeks of work I did. Obamas Medicare agency had been denying everything they can, so my boss is late on paying.
        Message 3 of 17 , Sep 1 9:30 PM
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          Nadine, I got paid so far for one week out of 6 weeks of work I did. Obamas Medicare agency had been denying everything they can, so my boss is late on paying. Thats the nature of EMS in Texas right now. Fortunately my renters are whats keeping me afloat, and the fact that I have very small bills. But I don't have extra money right now otherwise I would already have done the test. It's interesting to myself.
        • Gene 1
          I don t think all Seagals are related at all. All Shagals, Shagalov, Shagalovich are most likely related. We started find each other on facebook. One young
          Message 4 of 17 , Sep 1 9:54 PM
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            I don't think all Seagals are related at all. All Shagals, Shagalov, Shagalovich are most likely related. We started find each other on facebook. One young lady and I who have found a mutual connection (making us something to the equivalent of 6th cousin's) are trying to find everyone named Shagal we can and get all the little stories possible about our clan. So far everyone I found who's last name is Shagal (or a version of it) is from the same place in Belarus, and thank God for our famous cousin Mark Chagall, can use him to orient to each other. Mark makes our search easier. It seems everyone in our clan seems to ask this as the first question when we come in contact with each other. One of the first things I hear from other Shagals is: Are you related to Mark Shagal, because he is my great grandfathers cousine. And I do the same. But other Seagals, is they have a connection to us, it is either so far back, or just like you mentioned just a coincidence like being Taylor, etc.
          • Gene 1
            http://jewage.org/wiki/en/Last_Name:Shagal Plus we are using facebook to build our family tree. I found one other person who has the same interest as I do in
            Message 5 of 17 , Sep 1 10:10 PM
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              http://jewage.org/wiki/en/Last_Name:Shagal

              Plus we are using facebook to build our family tree. I found one other person who has the same interest as I do in building an extended family tree and see what we can find.
            • aj_levin
              ... Which is it? It can hardly be both. A.J.
              Message 6 of 17 , Sep 2 2:47 PM
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                --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, "Gene 1" <genecps@...> wrote:
                >
                > All Shagals that I have spoke to from Belarus are related to each other.

                --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, "Gene 1" <genecps@...> wrote:
                >
                > I have found other Shagals who are not related to me, and they all come from the same place, usually either from or near Vitebsk, Belarus.

                Which is it? It can hardly be both.

                A.J.
              • Gene 1
                Sorry, what I meant is I have found Shagals who are not close relatives, but we have figured out that we are distant relatives.
                Message 7 of 17 , Sep 3 12:07 PM
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                  Sorry, what I meant is I have found Shagals who are not close relatives, but we have figured out that we are distant relatives.
                • Dave
                  AJ, As you know if you really get into the research and the dna we are all relatively closely related if we have Ashkenazi roots. (Pun intended.) Furthermore,
                  Message 8 of 17 , Sep 3 9:10 PM
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                    AJ,

                    As you know if you really get into the research and the dna we are all relatively closely related if we have Ashkenazi roots. (Pun intended.)

                    Furthermore, we find dozens of variations of the same surname.

                    The maven Alexander Beider lists the following as the versions of Segal:

                    By the way, Marc Chagall spelled his Name Moishe Shagal (Moses Segal)

                    Segal, Segalchik, Sealson, Segalevich, Segaliovich, Segalov, Segalovich, Segalovskij, "Segel, Segelman, Segelson, Segelevich, Segil, Seglin, Segolov-Shchegolev, Sejgal, Sejgalus, Sejgel, Sigal, Sigalchik, Sigalskij, Sgalov, Sigalovich, Sigalovskij, Sigalus, Sigolovich, Sycal, Sycalovskiy, Tsigal, Tsigal, Tsycal, Tsoglin, Salal, Dagalchik, Sagalin, Sagalov, Sagalovich, Sagalovskij, Sagelevich, Saglovskij, Sagol, Sagolovich Sofalin, Sogalov, Sogalov-Shchegolev, Sogalovskij, Sogolov, Sogolovich, Sogolovskij, Shegal, Shegal, Shegalov, Shegelman, Shejgal, Shigalov, Shugal, Shugol, Shugul, Shagal, Shagaliovich, Shagalov, Shagelman, Zegal, Zegelman, Zigal, Zigelman, Zygal, Zagel All versions mean Levite

                    For the surname Levine:

                    Leven, Levinov, Levinovich, Levinovits, Levinchik, Levenchuk. Levinman, Levinskij, Levinson. Levenson, Livenson, Levinzon, Levinshtam, Levij, Levy, Leva, Levo, Lev-Levi, Livi, Lev, Levits, Levich, Leviev, Leviman, Levin, Lewin, Levinzon, Levison, Levisson, Levizon, Leviyan, Levis, Levov, Levovich, Lejvi, Lejva, Lejvij, Lejvy, Lejvyj, Levnshtam, Levenshtam, Levenberg, Leventul, Leventul, Levenshtejn, Levinshtejn, Galevi, Galejvy Alejvi, Alejvij, Delevi - All these versions mean Levite.

                    Bottom line - the surname is not necessarily the best indicator of a close relationship.

                    On the other hand, the autosomal DNA matches apparently give a much better indication of close relationships for folks other than Ashkenazi Jewish people.

                    Perhaps you could explain why we have so many false positives.

                    Dave
                  • Gene 1
                    Dave, Thank you for that. I didn t know there were so many versions of the name. I know people from our clan will find it interesting.
                    Message 9 of 17 , Sep 4 12:47 AM
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                      Dave, Thank you for that. I didn't know there were so many versions of the name. I know people from our clan will find it interesting.
                    • Gerald Horwitz
                      You re missed. We are in Vegas this week. Fl next month whatnrnyour plans Jerry horwwitz Sent from my iPad On Sep 3, 2011, at 23:10, Dave
                      Message 10 of 17 , Sep 4 6:02 AM
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                        You're missed.     We are in Vegas this week.    Fl next month whatnrnyour plans
                        Jerry horwwitz

                        Sent from my iPad

                        On Sep 3, 2011, at 23:10, Dave <dshoward@...> wrote:

                         



                        AJ,

                        As you know if you really get into the research and the dna we are all relatively closely related if we have Ashkenazi roots. (Pun intended.)

                        Furthermore, we find dozens of variations of the same surname.

                        The maven Alexander Beider lists the following as the versions of Segal:

                        By the way, Marc Chagall spelled his Name Moishe Shagal (Moses Segal)

                        Segal, Segalchik, Sealson, Segalevich, Segaliovich, Segalov, Segalovich, Segalovskij, "Segel, Segelman, Segelson, Segelevich, Segil, Seglin, Segolov-Shchegolev, Sejgal, Sejgalus, Sejgel, Sigal, Sigalchik, Sigalskij, Sgalov, Sigalovich, Sigalovskij, Sigalus, Sigolovich, Sycal, Sycalovskiy, Tsigal, Tsigal, Tsycal, Tsoglin, Salal, Dagalchik, Sagalin, Sagalov, Sagalovich, Sagalovskij, Sagelevich, Saglovskij, Sagol, Sagolovich Sofalin, Sogalov, Sogalov-Shchegolev, Sogalovskij, Sogolov, Sogolovich, Sogolovskij, Shegal, Shegal, Shegalov, Shegelman, Shejgal, Shigalov, Shugal, Shugol, Shugul, Shagal, Shagaliovich, Shagalov, Shagelman, Zegal, Zegelman, Zigal, Zigelman, Zygal, Zagel All versions mean Levite

                        For the surname Levine:

                        Leven, Levinov, Levinovich, Levinovits, Levinchik, Levenchuk. Levinman, Levinskij, Levinson. Levenson, Livenson, Levinzon, Levinshtam, Levij, Levy, Leva, Levo, Lev-Levi, Livi, Lev, Levits, Levich, Leviev, Leviman, Levin, Lewin, Levinzon, Levison, Levisson, Levizon, Leviyan, Levis, Levov, Levovich, Lejvi, Lejva, Lejvij, Lejvy, Lejvyj, Levnshtam, Levenshtam, Levenberg, Leventul, Leventul, Levenshtejn, Levinshtejn, Galevi, Galejvy Alejvi, Alejvij, Delevi - All these versions mean Levite.

                        Bottom line - the surname is not necessarily the best indicator of a close relationship.

                        On the other hand, the autosomal DNA matches apparently give a much better indication of close relationships for folks other than Ashkenazi Jewish people.

                        Perhaps you could explain why we have so many false positives.

                        Dave

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                      • aj_levin
                        ... For sure. I have Levin autosomal matches who are E1b1b1c1, R2a, J2a4, G2a. ... This is a tricky one. If you do test a third cousin, they will almost
                        Message 11 of 17 , Sep 4 8:05 PM
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                          Dave:

                          > Bottom line - the surname is not necessarily the best indicator of > a close relationship.

                          For sure. I have Levin autosomal matches who are E1b1b1c1, R2a, J2a4, G2a.

                          > On the other hand, the autosomal DNA matches apparently give a much
                          > better indication of close relationships for folks other than
                          > Ashkenazi Jewish people.

                          This is a tricky one.

                          If you do test a third cousin, they will almost certainly show up as your third cousin. The area beyond is tricky for anyone because you may or may not have inherited shared genes. The autosomal "false starts" are not confined to Ashkenazim: I manage the kits of several people with entirely West European ancestry and see obvious surname matches in perhaps about 15-25% of cases.

                          Why? The inheritance of these blocks is asymmetrical, the database only has in it the people it has, infidelities happen, not everyone's records are complete, some people rely too much on automatic suggestions on Ancestry.com, and not all of your ancestors were equally prolific. We also still do not have a full understanding of mutation rates, which can be different between the sexes, and even among people of different ethnic backgrounds.

                          For Ashkenazim, there are additional genealogical complications I am sure we all know of: lack of records, recent adoption of surnames, changes of name, relatively short life expectancies, high divorce/remarriage rates, etc. Endogamy is an issue too: Ashkenazim are more likely than others to have inherited an identical block from both parents (i.e.e their parents are in fact distant, or not so distant, relatives of each other).

                          It does take legwork, but it is possible to find useful matches!

                          Best,

                          A.J.
                        • Gene 1
                          But in my case, I m not talking about Seagal. there are a lot of Seagals here in America. I m only contacting Shagals, rarely Sagal, and Shagalov if I come
                          Message 12 of 17 , Sep 5 8:53 PM
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                            But in my case, I'm not talking about Seagal. there are a lot of Seagals here in America. I'm only contacting Shagals, rarely Sagal, and Shagalov if I come across one. So far it's exactly the same story: small town under Vitebsk, and we share lots of features, that are not Semitic, and look very similar.

                            I know a lot of you guys only believe in the absolute of DNA testing, but I'm also very prone to Occam's Razor. If it is called a duck, and it looks like a duck, it's prolly a duck.

                            At some point, when I run out of Shagals, I will start going for Seagals, Tsagals, and everything that is similar in hopes of finding out they are from the same place and share roots. I will also encourage everyone to get the Tests, because I think it is very important to human history to do that.

                            I'm very thankful for modern technology. I have been working for a while, to reconstruct our family history. Nadene, I was wrong, I re-asked my da about what we owned. And you were right, we didn't own land. We owned a windmill, and my dad said we were rich. What that means, neither I nor he knows. We joke that it was 50 cows and 20 chickens. Hehehe. I couldn't tell you much about what "rich" is. All I can compare it to is my mothers side of the family. She says she was poor, but her dad was a businessman who had a store, owned a house, and have coins with our family crest (last one was sold to pay for my uncles operation). So what I know is that compared to my mother side of the family, my Shagal side of the family was rich. Oh, and traditionally, we are Kosher butchers (which explains why I live in the country, and am interested with farming and animals, all men in my clan are like that.

                            Oh, and the last thing I know, is that my grandfather said his whole life that he was a descendant of Jewish Aristocracy. One day when I was 5 years old, my mom came into the room, after the grandparents visited, and told me I was a "Potomok" (descendant) of a red headed Jewish king. So I grew you always thinking about it. I feel like I am a royal. Not financially, but by family that I got. My family has no divorces, we are very close and enjoy each others company, respect education, and achieve what we set our sights on (my dad is a millioner- but a poor one, lol. My brother has all the coolest yuppie toys a heart can desire, and I'm an ex harley riding bountyhunter;)

                            All in all Shagal clan is a fund clan. Because there are a lot of us, who are only several generations removed from our little village, I'm curious what the common haplogroup we will find, and who will be related to us. Hope we are relatives, but some how I imagine, we are all related to each other by more then one haplogroup, on more then one side of the family.

                            Later cousins...
                          • NADENE GOLDFOOT
                            Hi Gene 1: Shagals, So you live in Belarus near the Russian border? I have matches with people from Belarus. My own grandfather was born in Telsiai,
                            Message 13 of 17 , Oct 18, 2011
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                              Hi Gene 1:  Shagals,
                              So you live in Belarus near the Russian border?  I have matches with people from Belarus.  My own grandfather was born in Telsiai, LIthuania.  I just wanted to comment that King David was supposed to be a "gingy" meaning he had red hair, so that's what your mother might have been referring to as well.  You probably don't know that we American Jewish women are all "Jewish American Princesses" and we like to be treated as such. This is sort of a joke we have, but we really like to be treated nicely, as all women do.    
                               
                              My father also started working as a kosher butcher.  He remained in the meat business all his life and ended up being a wholesale meat packer.    I think your family story is wonderful.  It's this type of history that is so important to pass on to the next generation.  It makes genealogy so intersting.  Thanks so much for sharing.
                               
                              The concept of whether we are rich or poor is well stated by you.  Many people in America who lived through our depression of 1929 did not realize they were poor, either.  It all depends on the family values. 
                              Nadene Goldfoot 
                               
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: Gene 1
                              Sent: Monday, September 05, 2011 8:53 PM
                              Subject: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Speaking of Segal, Levine and Halevi

                               

                              But in my case, I'm not talking about Seagal. there are a lot of Seagals here in America. I'm only contacting Shagals, rarely Sagal, and Shagalov if I come across one. So far it's exactly the same story: small town under Vitebsk, and we share lots of features, that are not Semitic, and look very similar.

                              I know a lot of you guys only believe in the absolute of DNA testing, but I'm also very prone to Occam's Razor. If it is called a duck, and it looks like a duck, it's prolly a duck.

                              At some point, when I run out of Shagals, I will start going for Seagals, Tsagals, and everything that is similar in hopes of finding out they are from the same place and share roots. I will also encourage everyone to get the Tests, because I think it is very important to human history to do that.

                              I'm very thankful for modern technology. I have been working for a while, to reconstruct our family history. Nadene, I was wrong, I re-asked my da about what we owned. And you were right, we didn't own land. We owned a windmill, and my dad said we were rich. What that means, neither I nor he knows. We joke that it was 50 cows and 20 chickens. Hehehe. I couldn't tell you much about what "rich" is. All I can compare it to is my mothers side of the family. She says she was poor, but her dad was a businessman who had a store, owned a house, and have coins with our family crest (last one was sold to pay for my uncles operation). So what I know is that compared to my mother side of the family, my Shagal side of the family was rich. Oh, and traditionally, we are Kosher butchers (which explains why I live in the country, and am interested with farming and animals, all men in my clan are like that.

                              Oh, and the last thing I know, is that my grandfather said his whole life that he was a descendant of Jewish Aristocracy. One day when I was 5 years old, my mom came into the room, after the grandparents visited, and told me I was a "Potomok" (descendant) of a red headed Jewish king. So I grew you always thinking about it. I feel like I am a royal. Not financially, but by family that I got. My family has no divorces, we are very close and enjoy each others company, respect education, and achieve what we set our sights on (my dad is a millioner- but a poor one, lol. My brother has all the coolest yuppie toys a heart can desire, and I'm an ex harley riding bountyhunter;)

                              All in all Shagal clan is a fund clan. Because there are a lot of us, who are only several generations removed from our little village, I'm curious what the common haplogroup we will find, and who will be related to us. Hope we are relatives, but some how I imagine, we are all related to each other by more then one haplogroup, on more then one side of the family.

                              Later cousins...

                            • NADENE GOLDFOOT
                              Gene 1, I m sorry to hear that. Is EMS emergency medical service? You re lucky to have renters, then and it s best that you are being frugal. I hope things
                              Message 14 of 17 , Oct 18, 2011
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                                Gene 1,
                                I'm sorry to hear that.  Is EMS emergency medical service?  You're lucky to have renters, then and it's best that you are being frugal.  I hope things improve economically so you can do more testing.  Nadene
                                 
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: Gene 1
                                Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 9:30 PM
                                Subject: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Speaking of Segal, Levine and Halevi

                                 

                                Nadine, I got paid so far for one week out of 6 weeks of work I did. Obamas Medicare agency had been denying everything they can, so my boss is late on paying. Thats the nature of EMS in Texas right now. Fortunately my renters are whats keeping me afloat, and the fact that I have very small bills. But I don't have extra money right now otherwise I would already have done the test. It's interesting to myself.

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