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Fw: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Doing a genetic genealogy project

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  • D Bremridge
    PLEASE PASS THIS MESSAGE ON TO D.J. WALETZKY Hi Dr Hromnik Below is the appreciative response from D.J.Waletzky. Thanks for your input Denise (Dina) Bremridge
    Message 1 of 1 , May 17, 2011
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      PLEASE PASS THIS MESSAGE ON TO D.J. WALETZKY
       
      Hi Dr Hromnik
      Below is the appreciative response from D.J.Waletzky.  
      Thanks for your input
      Denise (Dina) Bremridge
       
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: zkynyc
      Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 12:15 AM
      Subject: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Doing a genetic genealogy project

       



      Hi Denise!

      Thank you so much for this very interesting reply! I had never heard this etymology, but I do know that there were definitely road-pavers among my ancestors, as supported by census records and recollections by my great-grandfather (I'll have to review my tapes).

      Unfortunately I have no good way of verifying my own or anyone else's guesses about the name until I do a better test to determine relatedness with the various clusters of Q1b lineages I see on the FTDNA maps for this project. I do seem to share some autosomal DNA with Nadene Goldfoot according to 23andme, so perhaps we will turn out to be Litvaks instead of Yekkes after all!

      I've informed the family of this news, who are now outside repaving driveways in celebration as we speak. =)

      --D. J.

      --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, "D Bremridge" <drdenver@...> wrote:
      >
      > KINDLY PASS THIS MESSAGE ON TO D.J. WALETZKY AS I AM UNABLE TO FORWARD IT TO HIM DIRECT.
      >
      > Hi D.J. Waletzky
      > I received a copy of your ery interesting email and forwarded it to a colleague of mine Dr Cyril Hromnik who is a "Solvak" from
      > outside the capital of Slovakia which is Bratislawa. Once upon a time it was all part of the bigger picture of CZECHOSLOVIA.
      > Cyril is a Doctor of Ancient History and Linguistics, graduating at Charles University Prague and also at Syracuse University
      > New York, and has been doing research in Indo-African Ancent History for the past 30 years which brought him to live in
      > Cape Town South Africa. As a finely educated European he speaks many languages hence his rather simple reply to your
      > question about the meaning of your surname - see below.
      > Do you remember the name of the Polish President who died in the aircrash last year ?
      > I think it was very similar if not the same surname as yours. Suggest you check this out.
      > In Cape Town we have a Jewish family with the surname "Wilensky" - probably all from the same root.
      >
      > "I would rather think that Waletzky or Walecki comes from walec = steam roller or any other roller. This would seem more likely both in Polish and in Slovak and Czech."
      > Dr Cyril A Hromnik
      >
      > By the way, what is your first name?
      > Best wishes
      > Denise Bremridge (nee Goldfoot / Goldfus / "Zolotaya nogai")
      > Cape Town
      > South Africa
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > On Tue, Apr 26, 2011 at 4:56 PM, D Bremridge <drdenver@...> wrote:
      >
      > Dear CAH,
      > Could you possibly forward me an answer to the question below:-
      >
      > " am also abviously looking for anyone with a family connection to the name Waletzky or Walecki or coming from the towns of Mezritch or Biala Podlaska (Biale). One of the major questions I'm trying to answer for myself is whether Waletzky really means "from Walcz," a town between Sczeczin and Pila in Pomerania, as the literal translation of the Polish would suggest. I would be very interested in comparing genes with any Wolinsky Q1bs! "
      >
      > Thanks,
      > D. J. Waletzky
      >
      > Much appreciated
      > DRB
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: zkynyc
      > To: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Monday, April 25, 2011 5:10 PM
      > Subject: [Ashkenazi-Q] Doing a genetic genealogy project
      >
      >
      >
      > Hi everyone,
      >
      > A few months ago I started doing a small documentary film project about my family history and our relatively unusual last name. By happenstance, four generations of Waletzkys have all lived within seven blocks of my current apartment, which is down the street from the synagogue where my (paternal) grandfather was bar mitzvahed and married my grandmother. We've also been Yiddish speakers and deeply involved in preserving Yiddish language and secular-Jewish culture here in New York since my great-grandfather came here from Mezritch (Miedzyrzec Podlaski, Poland) at the turn of the last century.
      >
      > When 23andme offered their promotional discount, I could finally afford to have some genetic testing done, and while I was waiting for my results I did plenty of the same research about Jewish genetics I suspect many of the members of this group have done themselves.
      >
      > So when I tested Q1b, it raised all sorts of questions that I'd like to ask the group; anything discussed here would be on background and I wouldn't quote anyone without their permission in any finished product, as I think this might be expanded into a feature-length documentary.
      >
      > The most obvious question is whether you think Q1b does in fact imply Khazarian ancestry. I've wondered about that ever since I found a copy of Arthur Koestler's book in my synagogue's library when I was 8 and read it cover-to-cover. Reading the recent messages on this board seems to reflect consensus away from a Khazarian hypothesis, but there haven't been any concrete theories set forth as far as I know.
      >
      > From my own analysis, I'd say that Khazaria is the most likely source, given the paucity of other concrete theories. It's important to note that the Most Recent Common Ancestor is not necessarily the same thing as the first Jewish Q1b. Given the size and breadth of the sample, I think that assuming a single common ancestor as the introduction to the Jewish population doesn't make as much sense for this clade as it does for, say, the distinctively Jewish clades of I2b or N, which are much smaller.
      >
      > Given bottlenecks and genetic drift, reaching the proportion of Q1b to the rest of the Jewish population and in many major groups (Ashkenazi, Anatolian, Moroccan, Iraqi, etc.) would be relatively difficult for a single ancestor in the last 800 years. I estimate Q as 3.97% of the population, averaging the proportions reported by Shen, Semino, Hammer, Nebel, Behar and others.
      >
      > If Q1b were a founding Mediterranean lineage, I think we would see it better represented among non-Jewish Italian and Palestinian lineages where it is absent. If it were connected to Sephardic Jews, we would see it among non-Jewish or traditionally converso families in Spain, Portugal, Mexico/New Mexico and Cabo Verde, even if genetic drift had reduced its presence among Sephardim to Moroccans exclusively. (Compare this to the presence of G2c in southwestern Hispanic populations who are rediscovering their Jewish roots.)
      >
      > I think the hypothesis that fits the evidence best is for a small number of very closely related founders, introduced to the Jewish gene pool several generations before the accepted TMRCA of 800 years ago. I also think, having looked at countless records from JRI-Poland and Jewishgen.org, that 23 years per generation might represent a mean average, but it may not be a canonical guide when it comes to Y-DNA transmission (as opposed to mtDNA transmission). I've seen records of men as old as 54 having children to younger wives. Most women since 1830 seem to have been married around 19-23, but the ages of the men range upward much more widely, and couples tended to have many children over several years, up to half of whom died in infancy. As time goes on, the average age per generation also seems to increase among any population.
      >
      > That's where I was in my research about Q when I got my results a few weeks ago. Since then I've read the debates here and investigated the Ashina dynasty theory a little more closely. After dismissing it originally, I've come to the conclusion that it is a definite probability. As a long-time proposition better, I think the odds are better-than-even but I wouldn't put any specific numbers on the line.
      >
      > The Ashina had a discernable reason to keep a documented Altaic bloodline vibrant yet restricted from the general Gokturk/Khazar population, are documented to have joined the Jewish people about 1300 years ago in a relatively small yet significant number, four thousand nobles, comparable to the 500 families of the Ashina recorded in Chinese texts. Now, I don't attribute any mythical importance to the Ashina bloodline or consider ancient manuscripts gospel; history is usually written by the victors and often unreliable. I'm a bigger fan of the non-mythological claims in these texts that can be corroborated with other contemporary sources and scientific evidence.
      >
      > Q1b seems to have distributions focused in the Ukraine, Hungary and Lithuania, all recorded to have had a Khazar influx in Jewish sources. The tradition of being a Levite (which I actually rediscovered in the family, who had maintained we were Israel my whole lifetime) that seems particular to Q1b can't be a coincidence, although the connection of this fact to Khazarian origin is dubious. The near absence of Q1b outside of the Jewish population may be a result of extermination of the Ashina dynasty for political reasons; most of the line of the eastern khaganate is noted to have been murdered by their successors in those confederations. The last documented Ashinas all push out west, just as Q1b has an obvious westward pattern of expansion before the TMRCA of our Ashkenazi sub-clade. The Silk Road and the Radhanites both went through the Jewish Khazar kingdom, further compounding origin theories.
      >
      > Again, I think the odds are better-than-even, but I think that in order to make a definitive claim one way or the other we'd need a testable hypothesis and, I think, stronger alternate scenarios to test against.
      >
      > If anyone has thoughts and hopefully critiques, reply and/or let me know if you might want to be interviewed on film? We could easily use Skype or other video chat programs.
      >
      > Also, as I've been reading the messages here, I'd like to offer my assistance to anyone who has questions about Jewish languages, culture or religion who can't find answers elsewhere. I'm a native Yiddish speaker and have a (degraded, at this point) understanding of Hebrew and some Aramaic. Although I'm not a practicing Jew, I did attend an Orthodox Yeshiva in Brooklyn and am well-versed in Jewish history and folklore.
      >
      > By the way, I am also abviously looking for anyone with a family connection to the name Waletzky or Walecki or coming from the towns of Mezritch or Biala Podlaska (Biale). One of the major questions I'm trying to answer for myself is whether Waletzky really means "from Walcz," a town between Sczeczin and Pila in Pomerania, as the literal translation of the Polish would suggest. I would be very interested in comparing genes with any Wolinsky Q1bs!
      >
      > Thanks,
      > D. J. Waletzky
      >
      > P. S. Please contact me by e-mail if you would like to see a link to the 7-minute trailer I put together for the family this Passover. It contains some NSFW language and a terrible haircut on my part for several minutes.
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
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