Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Krupa Theory Ashina>>Khazars>>Askenazi Linked by Q1b is Not Supported by Science

Expand Messages
  • Dave
    Dear Q1b Cousins - It has been a while since I have posted. One of our Q1b cousins, Alfred Krupa, has spent a lot of thoughtful time and research attempting to
    Message 1 of 16 , Aug 22 5:27 PM
    • 0 Attachment
      Dear Q1b Cousins - It has been a while since I have posted.

      One of our Q1b cousins, Alfred Krupa, has spent a lot of thoughtful time
      and research attempting to link the Royal Ashinas, an almost mythical
      group from a place in northwestern China near the intersection of China
      with Mongolia and Kazakhstan. He theorizes that it may have been his own
      family, Krupa, and the yDNA Q1b that provided the link from the Royal
      Family of the Ashina with the Royal Family of the Khazars and that this
      linkage is the source of Ashkenazi Q1b yDNA.

      Freddy and I have been debating this in another forum and I thought I
      would share this brief summary here.

      While at one time many of us thought that the Khazars may have been the
      source of our Q yDNA this was before the M378 SNP had been discovered
      and before so much more information was known about our group. This
      linkage no longer makes sense.

      It appears that the Ashkenazi Jewish Q1b, with 67 markers tested, share
      a common ancestor about 800 years ago. This is far too recent for the
      Khazars which dissolved as a nation over 1,000 years ago or the
      Radhanites (my recent theory) who went out of business over 1,000 years
      ago.

      Based on the 2003 study by Behar et al published early 2004 almost all
      Haplogroup Q males in Central Europe are Jewish. The Khazars who merged
      in with the Hungarians, Austrians and a few other countries would have
      spread their Q yDNA among the gentiles as well as the Jews had they
      been the source. This is not supported by the science. The Khazarian
      Haplogroup would be one where there are many gentiles as well as Jews.
      The best candidate for Khazarian yDNA is R1a.

      The theory that the Khazars were the source of our Q1b haplogroup among
      the Ashkenazi Jewish people is now contra-factual (i.e. not true).

      I do not believe Freddy Krupa has conceded this point at all.

      Another point is that if he were the source of the M378 SNP for all the
      rest of us his STRs would be closer to the mode of all our SYS counts.
      However, he is on the fringe. He is not near the mode. It does not
      follow that he would be the source. Palmer and Abrams are right on the
      mode and are far from Krupa.

      I see no Q1b links us to the Royal Ashina or the Royal Khazars.is now in
      the category of nonsense and a hoax.

      I am sure Freddy will disagree but he has argued this with me endlessly.
      I am not convinced.

      Regards to all

      Dave Howard
    • Robert Michelson
      Dave, I cannot disagree with you as I am not as informed on the subject as you are. However, considering the spread of the Q1b, is 800 years a meaningful time
      Message 2 of 16 , Aug 22 6:16 PM
      • 0 Attachment
        Dave,
        I cannot disagree with you as I am not as informed on the subject as you are.  However, considering the spread of the Q1b, is 800 years a meaningful time frame?  That is, simplistically, 32 generations.  We have Q1b cousins from India (Muslim) as well as the Ashkenazi Jews.  And, from a handful of others around the region. 

        I do not mind discounting the Royal Ashinas, but we really do not have any other focus.  Do you see us getting one in the future?

        Respectfully,
        Bob Michelson



        From: Dave <dshoward@...>
        To: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Sun, August 22, 2010 8:27:07 PM
        Subject: [Ashkenazi-Q] Krupa Theory Ashina>>Khazars>>Askenazi Linked by Q1b is Not Supported by Science

         

        Dear Q1b Cousins - It has been a while since I have posted.

        One of our Q1b cousins, Alfred Krupa, has spent a lot of thoughtful time
        and research attempting to link the Royal Ashinas, an almost mythical
        group from a place in northwestern China near the intersection of China
        with Mongolia and Kazakhstan. He theorizes that it may have been his own
        family, Krupa, and the yDNA Q1b that provided the link from the Royal
        Family of the Ashina with the Royal Family of the Khazars and that this
        linkage is the source of Ashkenazi Q1b yDNA.

        Freddy and I have been debating this in another forum and I thought I
        would share this brief summary here.

        While at one time many of us thought that the Khazars may have been the
        source of our Q yDNA this was before the M378 SNP had been discovered
        and before so much more information was known about our group. This
        linkage no longer makes sense.

        It appears that the Ashkenazi Jewish Q1b, with 67 markers tested, share
        a common ancestor about 800 years ago. This is far too recent for the
        Khazars which dissolved as a nation over 1,000 years ago or the
        Radhanites (my recent theory) who went out of business over 1,000 years
        ago.

        Based on the 2003 study by Behar et al published early 2004 almost all
        Haplogroup Q males in Central Europe are Jewish. The Khazars who merged
        in with the Hungarians, Austrians and a few other countries would have
        spread their Q yDNA among the gentiles as well as the Jews had they
        been the source. This is not supported by the science. The Khazarian
        Haplogroup would be one where there are many gentiles as well as Jews.
        The best candidate for Khazarian yDNA is R1a.

        The theory that the Khazars were the source of our Q1b haplogroup among
        the Ashkenazi Jewish people is now contra-factual (i.e. not true).

        I do not believe Freddy Krupa has conceded this point at all.

        Another point is that if he were the source of the M378 SNP for all the
        rest of us his STRs would be closer to the mode of all our SYS counts.
        However, he is on the fringe. He is not near the mode. It does not
        follow that he would be the source. Palmer and Abrams are right on the
        mode and are far from Krupa.

        I see no Q1b links us to the Royal Ashina or the Royal Khazars.is now in
        the category of nonsense and a hoax.

        I am sure Freddy will disagree but he has argued this with me endlessly.
        I am not convinced.

        Regards to all

        Dave Howard


      • Rebekah Adele Canada
        Hi Dave, Not to pick on you or anything... ;-) ...but I have updated the Y-chromosome DNA Haplogroup Q s Draft Tree on the project website.
        Message 3 of 16 , Aug 22 6:54 PM
        • 0 Attachment
          Hi Dave,

          Not to pick on you or anything... ;-) ...but I have updated the Y-chromosome DNA Haplogroup Q's Draft Tree on the project website.


          To summarize:
          • Q-M378 (South Central Asia, Middle East, Mediterranean)
            • L245 (Armenian-Judeo-Sicilian) 
              • L272 (Sicilian)
              • L315 (Ukrainian Jew)
            • L301 (Iranian)
            • L327 (Azores Islands)
          Of course, much more testing is needed. For example, the person who's sample L301 was found in has not tested for L245, L315, or L327. Further, only the L301 discovery person and the two WTY M378+ people have results for L301. Unfortunately, L301, L315, and L327 are not currently sold to the public. Thus, advancing scientific knowledge of M378 and its new subclades is stifled.

          On a side note though... L301 is not in the Y-DNA Q project. Thus, the information I am able to obtain from FTDNA is limited. This is a good example of why I need everyone possible to join the project.


          ---
          Regards,
          Rebekah A. Canada
          Volunteer Administrator, Family Tree DNA
          H & HV mtDNA Hg Project
          Q Y-DNA Hg Project, I-P109 Y-DNA Hg Project, Scandinavian Y-DNA Project
          http://www.google.com/profiles/rebekahthorn
          http://friendfeed.com/rebekahthorn


          On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 8:27 PM, Dave <dshoward@...> wrote:
          Dear Q1b Cousins - It has been a while since I have posted.

          One of our Q1b cousins, Alfred Krupa, has spent a lot of thoughtful time
          and research attempting to link the Royal Ashinas, an almost mythical
          group from a place in northwestern China near the intersection of China
          with Mongolia and Kazakhstan. He theorizes that it may have been his own
          family, Krupa, and the yDNA Q1b that provided the link from the Royal
          Family of the Ashina with the Royal Family of the Khazars and that this
          linkage is the source of Ashkenazi Q1b yDNA.

          Freddy and I have been debating this in another forum and I thought I
          would share this brief summary here.

          While at one time many of us thought that the Khazars may have been the
          source of our Q yDNA this was before the M378 SNP had been discovered
          and before so much more information was known about our group. This
          linkage no longer makes sense.

          It appears that the Ashkenazi Jewish Q1b, with 67 markers tested, share
          a common ancestor about 800 years ago. This is far too recent for the
          Khazars which dissolved as a nation over 1,000 years ago or the
          Radhanites (my recent theory) who went out of business over 1,000 years
          ago.

          Based on the 2003 study by Behar et al published early 2004 almost all
          Haplogroup Q males in Central Europe are Jewish. The Khazars who merged
          in with the Hungarians, Austrians and a few other countries would have
          spread their Q yDNA  among the gentiles as well as the Jews had they
          been the source. This is not supported by the science. The Khazarian
          Haplogroup would be one  where there are many gentiles as well as Jews.
          The best candidate for Khazarian yDNA is R1a.

          The theory that the Khazars were the source of our Q1b haplogroup among
          the Ashkenazi Jewish people is now contra-factual (i.e. not true).

          I do not believe Freddy Krupa has conceded this point at all.

          Another point is that if he were the source of the M378 SNP for all the
          rest of us his STRs would be closer to the mode of all our SYS counts.
          However, he is on the fringe. He is not near the mode. It does not
          follow that he would be the source. Palmer and Abrams are right on the
          mode and are far from Krupa.

          I see no Q1b links us to the Royal Ashina or the Royal Khazars.is now in
          the category of nonsense and a hoax.

          I am sure Freddy will disagree but he has argued this with me endlessly.
          I am not convinced.

          Regards to all

          Dave Howard



        • jerry
          to negate the ashina link as strongly as mr. howard has is just as  infactual as linking the khazars with r1a. we just don t know what exactly was in the
          Message 4 of 16 , Aug 22 7:10 PM
          • 0 Attachment
            to negate the ashina link as strongly as mr. howard has is just as  infactual as linking the khazars with r1a. we just don't know what exactly was in the khazar dna to make any link at all. it's all hypothetical, though we can theorize that both q and r1a were likely haplotypes in the khazarian male line, who weren't only a group of turks, but were slavs, alans and other tribes, too.
            g.prager


            From: Robert Michelson <ramichel@...>
            To: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Sun, August 22, 2010 6:16:02 PM
            Subject: Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] Krupa Theory Ashina>>Khazars>>Askenazi Linked by Q1b is Not Supported by Science

             

            Dave,
            I cannot disagree with you as I am not as informed on the subject as you are.  However, considering the spread of the Q1b, is 800 years a meaningful time frame?  That is, simplistically, 32 generations.  We have Q1b cousins from India (Muslim) as well as the Ashkenazi Jews.  And, from a handful of others around the region. 

            I do not mind discounting the Royal Ashinas, but we really do not have any other focus.  Do you see us getting one in the future?

            Respectfully,
            Bob Michelson



            From: Dave <dshoward@...>
            To: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Sun, August 22, 2010 8:27:07 PM
            Subject: [Ashkenazi-Q] Krupa Theory Ashina>>Khazars>>Askenazi Linked by Q1b is Not Supported by Science

             

            Dear Q1b Cousins - It has been a while since I have posted.

            One of our Q1b cousins, Alfred Krupa, has spent a lot of thoughtful time
            and research attempting to link the Royal Ashinas, an almost mythical
            group from a place in northwestern China near the intersection of China
            with Mongolia and Kazakhstan. He theorizes that it may have been his own
            family, Krupa, and the yDNA Q1b that provided the link from the Royal
            Family of the Ashina with the Royal Family of the Khazars and that this
            linkage is the source of Ashkenazi Q1b yDNA.

            Freddy and I have been debating this in another forum and I thought I
            would share this brief summary here.

            While at one time many of us thought that the Khazars may have been the
            source of our Q yDNA this was before the M378 SNP had been discovered
            and before so much more information was known about our group. This
            linkage no longer makes sense.

            It appears that the Ashkenazi Jewish Q1b, with 67 markers tested, share
            a common ancestor about 800 years ago. This is far too recent for the
            Khazars which dissolved as a nation over 1,000 years ago or the
            Radhanites (my recent theory) who went out of business over 1,000 years
            ago.

            Based on the 2003 study by Behar et al published early 2004 almost all
            Haplogroup Q males in Central Europe are Jewish. The Khazars who merged
            in with the Hungarians, Austrians and a few other countries would have
            spread their Q yDNA among the gentiles as well as the Jews had they
            been the source. This is not supported by the science. The Khazarian
            Haplogroup would be one where there are many gentiles as well as Jews.
            The best candidate for Khazarian yDNA is R1a.

            The theory that the Khazars were the source of our Q1b haplogroup among
            the Ashkenazi Jewish people is now contra-factual (i.e. not true).

            I do not believe Freddy Krupa has conceded this point at all.

            Another point is that if he were the source of the M378 SNP for all the
            rest of us his STRs would be closer to the mode of all our SYS counts.
            However, he is on the fringe. He is not near the mode. It does not
            follow that he would be the source. Palmer and Abrams are right on the
            mode and are far from Krupa.

            I see no Q1b links us to the Royal Ashina or the Royal Khazars.is now in
            the category of nonsense and a hoax.

            I am sure Freddy will disagree but he has argued this with me endlessly.
            I am not convinced.

            Regards to all

            Dave Howard



          • Maria Alonso
            Hi all, Just brainstorming here; What if members of Haplogroup Q were already part of the genetically diverse population that formed the Hebrew identity
            Message 5 of 16 , Aug 22 7:15 PM
            • 0 Attachment
              Hi all,

              Just brainstorming here;  What if members of Haplogroup Q were already part of the  genetically diverse  population that  formed the Hebrew identity back in 1500 BC?.  My knowledge in genetics is limited but could a bottleneck effect or founder effect be responsible for the  800 years span of mutation M378?  Perhaps M378 could be older if we take that in account?

              Maria Alonso

              From: Dave <dshoward@...>
              To: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sun, August 22, 2010 5:27:07 PM
              Subject: [Ashkenazi-Q] Krupa Theory Ashina>>Khazars>>Askenazi Linked by Q1b is Not Supported by Science

              Dear Q1b Cousins - It has been a while since I have posted.

              One of our Q1b cousins, Alfred Krupa, has spent a lot of thoughtful time
              and research attempting to link the Royal Ashinas, an almost mythical
              group from a place in northwestern China near the intersection of China
              with Mongolia and Kazakhstan. He theorizes that it may have been his own
              family, Krupa, and the yDNA Q1b that provided the link from the Royal
              Family of the Ashina with the Royal Family of the Khazars and that this
              linkage is the source of Ashkenazi Q1b yDNA.

              Freddy and I have been debating this in another forum and I thought I
              would share this brief summary here.

              While at one time many of us thought that the Khazars may have been the
              source of our Q yDNA this was before the M378 SNP had been discovered
              and before so much more information was known about our group. This
              linkage no longer makes sense.

              It appears that the Ashkenazi Jewish Q1b, with 67 markers tested, share
              a common ancestor about 800 years ago. This is far too recent for the
              Khazars which dissolved as a nation over 1,000 years ago or the
              Radhanites (my recent theory) who went out of business over 1,000 years
              ago.

              Based on the 2003 study by Behar et al published early 2004 almost all
              Haplogroup Q males in Central Europe are Jewish. The Khazars who merged
              in with the Hungarians, Austrians and a few other countries would have
              spread their Q yDNA  among the gentiles as well as the Jews had they
              been the source. This is not supported by the science. The Khazarian
              Haplogroup would be one  where there are many gentiles as well as Jews.
              The best candidate for Khazarian yDNA is R1a.

              The theory that the Khazars were the source of our Q1b haplogroup among
              the Ashkenazi Jewish people is now contra-factual (i.e. not true).

              I do not believe Freddy Krupa has conceded this point at all.

              Another point is that if he were the source of the M378 SNP for all the
              rest of us his STRs would be closer to the mode of all our SYS counts.
              However, he is on the fringe. He is not near the mode. It does not
              follow that he would be the source. Palmer and Abrams are right on the
              mode and are far from Krupa.

              I see no Q1b links us to the Royal Ashina or the Royal Khazars.is now in
              the category of nonsense and a hoax.

              I am sure Freddy will disagree but he has argued this with me endlessly.
              I am not convinced.

              Regards to all

              Dave Howard




              ------------------------------------

              Join Our yDNA Group at http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Jewish_QYahoo! Groups Links

              <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Ashkenazi-Q/

              <*> Your email settings:
                  Individual Email | Traditional

              <*> To change settings online go to:
                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Ashkenazi-Q/join
                  (Yahoo! ID required)

              <*> To change settings via email:
                  Ashkenazi-Q-digest@yahoogroups.com
                  Ashkenazi-Q-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com

              <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  Ashkenazi-Q-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

              <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

            • Rebekah Adele Canada
              ... Regards, Rebekah A. Canada Volunteer Administrator, Family Tree DNA H & HV mtDNA Hg Project Q Y-DNA Hg Project, I-P109 Y-DNA Hg Project, Scandinavian Y-DNA
              Message 6 of 16 , Aug 22 7:37 PM
              • 0 Attachment

                ---
                Regards,
                Rebekah A. Canada
                Volunteer Administrator, Family Tree DNA
                H & HV mtDNA Hg Project
                Q Y-DNA Hg Project, I-P109 Y-DNA Hg Project, Scandinavian Y-DNA Project
                http://www.google.com/profiles/rebekahthorn
                http://friendfeed.com/rebekahthorn
                Hi Maria,

                Yes, the M378 mutation itself is much older than 800 years. The number of parallel mutations (L214, L215, L275, and L314) indicate its age and that there could be many diverse branches that we do not know about.

                It is important to remember that in many of the countries where distant branches are likely to be found (Iran, Iraq, Syria, Turkey, etc) genetic testing for personal ancestry is still a new idea. 

                The 800 year date could be the result of the persecutions of the middle ages and/or a bias in emigration patterns as many more American Jews have tested than South African, Israeli, and Australian Jews. 

                Best,
                Rebekah

                On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 10:15 PM, Maria Alonso <baltanas@...> wrote:


                Hi all,

                Just brainstorming here;  What if members of Haplogroup Q were already part of the  genetically diverse  population that  formed the Hebrew identity back in 1500 BC?.  My knowledge in genetics is limited but could a bottleneck effect or founder effect be responsible for the  800 years span of mutation M378?  Perhaps M378 could be older if we take that in account?

                Maria Alonso
              • Rebekah Adele Canada
                Robert, The 800 year date is first an calculation based on a sample of volunteers. It includes only those who are Ashkenazi Jews and know it (Q-L315?). If you
                Message 7 of 16 , Aug 22 7:51 PM
                • 0 Attachment
                  Robert,

                  The 800 year date is first an calculation based on a sample of volunteers. It includes only those who are Ashkenazi Jews and know it (Q-L315?). If you calculate the Time to a Most Recent Common Ancestor for all Non-Ashkenazi Jews, Non-Jewish Q1bs, and one sample from Ashkenazi Jews then the result is much, much different. The implication is that M378 and its subclades have been in the Mediterranean and Middle East for a very long time.

                  One long term problem is that many people still have not upgraded past 12 STR markers. Date calculations with only 12 or even 25 markers come with a much wider confidence interval than we should be using for matching historic events.

                  ---
                  Regards,
                  Rebekah A. Canada
                  Volunteer Administrator, Family Tree DNA
                  H & HV mtDNA Hg Project
                  Q Y-DNA Hg Project, I-P109 Y-DNA Hg Project, Scandinavian Y-DNA Project
                  http://www.google.com/profiles/rebekahthorn
                  http://friendfeed.com/rebekahthorn


                  On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 9:16 PM, Robert Michelson <ramichel@...> wrote:


                  Dave,
                  I cannot disagree with you as I am not as informed on the subject as you are.  However, considering the spread of the Q1b, is 800 years a meaningful time frame?  That is, simplistically, 32 generations.  We have Q1b cousins from India (Muslim) as well as the Ashkenazi Jews.  And, from a handful of others around the region. 

                  I do not mind discounting the Royal Ashinas, but we really do not have any other focus.  Do you see us getting one in the future?

                  Respectfully,
                  Bob Michelson
                • Michael Jaron
                  Dave, Thank you for (finally) providing at least answers to some of my questions and hopefully enabling me to ask better ones! ... 800 years takes us to around
                  Message 8 of 16 , Aug 22 8:09 PM
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Dave,
                     
                    Thank you for (finally) providing at least answers to some of my questions and hopefully enabling me to ask better ones!

                    On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 8:27 PM, Dave <dshoward@...> wrote:

                    It appears that the Ashkenazi Jewish Q1b, with 67 markers tested, share
                    a common ancestor about 800 years ago.

                    800 years takes us to around the 13th century.  Genetic Mutations are random, but still something causes these mutations.  What is this something?  Some sort of shock to or circumstance affecting our biological makeup?  Geophysical location and/or conditions?
                     
                    You point out that Palmer and Abrams are "right on the mode" in terms of SYS counts.  I take it it this means that they are closest in relation to the "common ancestor"?  (I realize that I may not be expressing things correctly!)  Can some sort of illustration be made of who fits where and in these terms, who is closest to who?  This might also better illustrate the migrations, especially as it relates to the "Family Finder".
                    This might sound like a ridiculous question, but:What were we before the advent of the m378 mutation?  How does that compare with other branches of "Q"?
                     
                    Regards
                    Mike jaron
                     

                  • Dave
                    Robert, Read my later post where I quote Bennett Greenspan. We should not get confused with other Q s. We need to focus on the Ashkenazi Q1b s. That is who we
                    Message 9 of 16 , Aug 22 10:28 PM
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Robert,

                      Read my later post where I quote Bennett Greenspan.

                      We should not get confused with other Q's. We need to focus on the Ashkenazi Q1b's. That is who we are.

                      That we may have cousins that link back to us thousands of years ago is really pretty much meaningless.

                      Also, remember that the TMRCA calculator is cumulative probability. So if Bennett says 94% within 800 years this really means 800 or fewer years. The 800 is not the median point. It is not 800 years plus or minus 200 years.

                      Dave

                      --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, Robert Michelson <ramichel@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Dave,
                      > I cannot disagree with you as I am not as informed on the subject as you are.
                      > However, considering the spread of the Q1b, is 800 years a meaningful time
                      > frame? That is, simplistically, 32 generations. We have Q1b cousins from India
                      > (Muslim) as well as the Ashkenazi Jews. And, from a handful of others around
                      > the region.
                      >
                      >
                      > I do not mind discounting the Royal Ashinas, but we really do not have any other
                      > focus. Do you see us getting one in the future?
                      >
                      > Respectfully,
                      > Bob Michelson
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ________________________________
                      > From: Dave <dshoward@...>
                      > To: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com
                      > Sent: Sun, August 22, 2010 8:27:07 PM
                      > Subject: [Ashkenazi-Q] Krupa Theory Ashina>>Khazars>>Askenazi Linked by Q1b is
                      > Not Supported by Science
                      >
                      >
                      > Dear Q1b Cousins - It has been a while since I have posted.
                      >
                      > One of our Q1b cousins, Alfred Krupa, has spent a lot of thoughtful time
                      > and research attempting to link the Royal Ashinas, an almost mythical
                      > group from a place in northwestern China near the intersection of China
                      > with Mongolia and Kazakhstan. He theorizes that it may have been his own
                      > family, Krupa, and the yDNA Q1b that provided the link from the Royal
                      > Family of the Ashina with the Royal Family of the Khazars and that this
                      > linkage is the source of Ashkenazi Q1b yDNA.
                      >
                      > Freddy and I have been debating this in another forum and I thought I
                      > would share this brief summary here.
                      >
                      > While at one time many of us thought that the Khazars may have been the
                      > source of our Q yDNA this was before the M378 SNP had been discovered
                      > and before so much more information was known about our group. This
                      > linkage no longer makes sense.
                      >
                      > It appears that the Ashkenazi Jewish Q1b, with 67 markers tested, share
                      > a common ancestor about 800 years ago. This is far too recent for the
                      > Khazars which dissolved as a nation over 1,000 years ago or the
                      > Radhanites (my recent theory) who went out of business over 1,000 years
                      > ago.
                      >
                      > Based on the 2003 study by Behar et al published early 2004 almost all
                      > Haplogroup Q males in Central Europe are Jewish. The Khazars who merged
                      > in with the Hungarians, Austrians and a few other countries would have
                      > spread their Q yDNA among the gentiles as well as the Jews had they
                      > been the source. This is not supported by the science. The Khazarian
                      > Haplogroup would be one where there are many gentiles as well as Jews.
                      > The best candidate for Khazarian yDNA is R1a.
                      >
                      > The theory that the Khazars were the source of our Q1b haplogroup among
                      > the Ashkenazi Jewish people is now contra-factual (i.e. not true).
                      >
                      > I do not believe Freddy Krupa has conceded this point at all.
                      >
                      > Another point is that if he were the source of the M378 SNP for all the
                      > rest of us his STRs would be closer to the mode of all our SYS counts.
                      > However, he is on the fringe. He is not near the mode. It does not
                      > follow that he would be the source. Palmer and Abrams are right on the
                      > mode and are far from Krupa.
                      >
                      > I see no Q1b links us to the Royal Ashina or the Royal Khazars.is now in
                      > the category of nonsense and a hoax.
                      >
                      > I am sure Freddy will disagree but he has argued this with me endlessly.
                      > I am not convinced.
                      >
                      > Regards to all
                      >
                      > Dave Howard
                      >
                    • Dave
                      Rebekah, I do not feel picked on. That there are some new subclades under M378 are wonderful. I do feel like my family, the Ashkenazi Q1b s deserve our own
                      Message 10 of 16 , Aug 22 10:34 PM
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Rebekah,

                        I do not feel picked on. That there are some new subclades under M378 are wonderful. I do feel like my family, the Ashkenazi Q1b's deserve our own up-to-date SNP since we now have to share M378 with so many others.

                        Furthermore, that there are these additional subclades does not diminish my arguments against Freddy Krupa.

                        He is insisting that the M378 SNP came to Ashkenazim through the Khazars. This makes no sense based on the research and the TRMCA time line.

                        It is looking like the Khazars shared their R1a1 yDNA with us.

                        Thanks for the update.

                        So is Family Tree DNA going to sell us a test for L245, L272, L315, L301 and L327? Hasn't this work been done by the scientists already? Do you know the results for me?

                        Thanks always,

                        Dave

                        --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, Rebekah Adele Canada <rebekahthorn@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Hi Dave,
                        >
                        > Not to pick on you or anything... ;-) ...but I have updated the Y-chromosome
                        > DNA Haplogroup Q's Draft Tree on the project website.
                        >
                        > http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ydna_q/default.aspx
                        >
                        > To summarize:
                        >
                        > - Q-M378 (South Central Asia, Middle East, Mediterranean)
                        > - L245 (Armenian-Judeo-Sicilian)
                        > - L272 (Sicilian)
                        > - L315 (Ukrainian Jew)
                        > - L301 (Iranian)
                        > - L327 (Azores Islands)
                        >
                        > Of course, much more testing is needed. For example, the person who's sample
                        > L301 was found in has not tested for L245, L315, or L327. Further, only the
                        > L301 discovery person and the two WTY M378+ people have results for L301.
                        > Unfortunately, L301, L315, and L327 are not currently sold to the public.
                        > Thus, advancing scientific knowledge of M378 and its new subclades is
                        > stifled.
                        >
                        > On a side note though... L301 is not in the Y-DNA Q project. Thus, the
                        > information I am able to obtain from FTDNA is limited. This is a good
                        > example of why I need *everyone* possible to join the project.
                        >
                        >
                        > ---
                        > Regards,
                        > Rebekah A. Canada
                        > Volunteer Administrator, Family Tree DNA
                        > H & HV mtDNA Hg Project
                        > Q Y-DNA Hg Project, I-P109 Y-DNA Hg Project, Scandinavian Y-DNA Project
                        > http://www.google.com/profiles/rebekahthorn
                        > http://friendfeed.com/rebekahthorn
                        >
                        >
                        > On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 8:27 PM, Dave <dshoward@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > > Dear Q1b Cousins - It has been a while since I have posted.
                        > >
                        > > One of our Q1b cousins, Alfred Krupa, has spent a lot of thoughtful time
                        > > and research attempting to link the Royal Ashinas, an almost mythical
                        > > group from a place in northwestern China near the intersection of China
                        > > with Mongolia and Kazakhstan. He theorizes that it may have been his own
                        > > family, Krupa, and the yDNA Q1b that provided the link from the Royal
                        > > Family of the Ashina with the Royal Family of the Khazars and that this
                        > > linkage is the source of Ashkenazi Q1b yDNA.
                        > >
                        > > Freddy and I have been debating this in another forum and I thought I
                        > > would share this brief summary here.
                        > >
                        > > While at one time many of us thought that the Khazars may have been the
                        > > source of our Q yDNA this was before the M378 SNP had been discovered
                        > > and before so much more information was known about our group. This
                        > > linkage no longer makes sense.
                        > >
                        > > It appears that the Ashkenazi Jewish Q1b, with 67 markers tested, share
                        > > a common ancestor about 800 years ago. This is far too recent for the
                        > > Khazars which dissolved as a nation over 1,000 years ago or the
                        > > Radhanites (my recent theory) who went out of business over 1,000 years
                        > > ago.
                        > >
                        > > Based on the 2003 study by Behar et al published early 2004 almost all
                        > > Haplogroup Q males in Central Europe are Jewish. The Khazars who merged
                        > > in with the Hungarians, Austrians and a few other countries would have
                        > > spread their Q yDNA among the gentiles as well as the Jews had they
                        > > been the source. This is not supported by the science. The Khazarian
                        > > Haplogroup would be one where there are many gentiles as well as Jews.
                        > > The best candidate for Khazarian yDNA is R1a.
                        > >
                        > > The theory that the Khazars were the source of our Q1b haplogroup among
                        > > the Ashkenazi Jewish people is now contra-factual (i.e. not true).
                        > >
                        > > I do not believe Freddy Krupa has conceded this point at all.
                        > >
                        > > Another point is that if he were the source of the M378 SNP for all the
                        > > rest of us his STRs would be closer to the mode of all our SYS counts.
                        > > However, he is on the fringe. He is not near the mode. It does not
                        > > follow that he would be the source. Palmer and Abrams are right on the
                        > > mode and are far from Krupa.
                        > >
                        > > I see no Q1b links us to the Royal Ashina or the Royal Khazars.is now in
                        > > the category of nonsense and a hoax.
                        > >
                        > > I am sure Freddy will disagree but he has argued this with me endlessly.
                        > > I am not convinced.
                        > >
                        > > Regards to all
                        > >
                        > > Dave Howard
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                      • Dave
                        Maria, Brainstorming is wonderful. However -- You need to read some of the scientific papers here on this site under files. The ones with Behar as the lead
                        Message 11 of 16 , Aug 22 10:38 PM
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Maria,

                          Brainstorming is wonderful. However --

                          You need to read some of the scientific papers here on this site under files. The ones with Behar as the lead author make it pretty clear that the M378 SNP (Q1b) really is not that ancient among the Jewish people.

                          Read the note from Bennett Greenspan I posted as well.

                          In fact, the most recent science shows that the definitive Jewish markers may only be about 2,000 years old.

                          Keep up the creative ideas.

                          Dave

                          --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, Maria Alonso <baltanas@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Hi all,
                          >
                          > Just brainstorming here; What if members of Haplogroup Q were already part of
                          > the genetically diverse population that formed the Hebrew identity back in
                          > 1500 BC?. My knowledge in genetics is limited but could a bottleneck effect or
                          > founder effect be responsible for the 800 years span of mutation M378? Perhaps
                          > M378 could be older if we take that in account?
                          >
                          > Maria Alonso
                          >
                          > ________________________________
                          > From: Dave <dshoward@...>
                          > To: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com
                          > Sent: Sun, August 22, 2010 5:27:07 PM
                          > Subject: [Ashkenazi-Q] Krupa Theory Ashina>>Khazars>>Askenazi Linked by Q1b is
                          > Not Supported by Science
                          >
                          > Dear Q1b Cousins - It has been a while since I have posted.
                          >
                          > One of our Q1b cousins, Alfred Krupa, has spent a lot of thoughtful time
                          > and research attempting to link the Royal Ashinas, an almost mythical
                          > group from a place in northwestern China near the intersection of China
                          > with Mongolia and Kazakhstan. He theorizes that it may have been his own
                          > family, Krupa, and the yDNA Q1b that provided the link from the Royal
                          > Family of the Ashina with the Royal Family of the Khazars and that this
                          > linkage is the source of Ashkenazi Q1b yDNA.
                          >
                          > Freddy and I have been debating this in another forum and I thought I
                          > would share this brief summary here.
                          >
                          > While at one time many of us thought that the Khazars may have been the
                          > source of our Q yDNA this was before the M378 SNP had been discovered
                          > and before so much more information was known about our group. This
                          > linkage no longer makes sense.
                          >
                          > It appears that the Ashkenazi Jewish Q1b, with 67 markers tested, share
                          > a common ancestor about 800 years ago. This is far too recent for the
                          > Khazars which dissolved as a nation over 1,000 years ago or the
                          > Radhanites (my recent theory) who went out of business over 1,000 years
                          > ago.
                          >
                          > Based on the 2003 study by Behar et al published early 2004 almost all
                          > Haplogroup Q males in Central Europe are Jewish. The Khazars who merged
                          > in with the Hungarians, Austrians and a few other countries would have
                          > spread their Q yDNA among the gentiles as well as the Jews had they
                          > been the source. This is not supported by the science. The Khazarian
                          > Haplogroup would be one where there are many gentiles as well as Jews.
                          > The best candidate for Khazarian yDNA is R1a.
                          >
                          > The theory that the Khazars were the source of our Q1b haplogroup among
                          > the Ashkenazi Jewish people is now contra-factual (i.e. not true).
                          >
                          > I do not believe Freddy Krupa has conceded this point at all.
                          >
                          > Another point is that if he were the source of the M378 SNP for all the
                          > rest of us his STRs would be closer to the mode of all our SYS counts.
                          > However, he is on the fringe. He is not near the mode. It does not
                          > follow that he would be the source. Palmer and Abrams are right on the
                          > mode and are far from Krupa.
                          >
                          > I see no Q1b links us to the Royal Ashina or the Royal Khazars.is now in
                          > the category of nonsense and a hoax.
                          >
                          > I am sure Freddy will disagree but he has argued this with me endlessly.
                          > I am not convinced.
                          >
                          > Regards to all
                          >
                          > Dave Howard
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ------------------------------------
                          >
                          > Join Our yDNA Group at http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Jewish_QYahoo! Groups
                          > Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                          >
                        • Dave
                          Michael, You have asked some great questions. I wont tackle them all at once but consider this. The M378 mutation probably took place about 12,000 years ago.
                          Message 12 of 16 , Aug 22 10:44 PM
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Michael,

                            You have asked some great questions.

                            I wont tackle them all at once but consider this.

                            The M378 mutation probably took place about 12,000 years ago.

                            That means men with this marker were walking around for over 11,000 years before a guy with this marker walked into the camp of the Ashkenzim 800 years ago.

                            Where did he come from?

                            Not from the Khazars. They were long gone as a group and were probaby R1a1. Not from the Radhanites (my favorite theory for a while) because they were long gone.

                            Take a look at the Behar 2010 paper Rebeka posted here not that long ago. It explains a lot about Jewish yDNA.

                            I will take a crack at your other questions later.

                            Dave





                            --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, Michael Jaron <MLJARON@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Dave,
                            >
                            > Thank you for (finally) providing at least answers to some of my questions
                            > and hopefully enabling me to ask better ones!
                            >
                            > On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 8:27 PM, Dave <dshoward@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > > It appears that the Ashkenazi Jewish Q1b, with 67 markers tested, share
                            > > a common ancestor about 800 years ago.
                            > >
                            > 800 years takes us to around the 13th century. Genetic Mutations are
                            > random, but still something causes these mutations. What is this
                            > something? Some sort of shock to or circumstance affecting our biological
                            > makeup? Geophysical location and/or conditions?
                            >
                            > You point out that Palmer and Abrams are "right on the mode" in terms of SYS
                            > counts. I take it it this means that they are closest in relation to the
                            > "common ancestor"? (I realize that I may not be expressing things
                            > correctly!) Can some sort of illustration be made of who fits where and in
                            > these terms, who is closest to who? This might also better illustrate the
                            > migrations, especially as it relates to the "Family Finder".
                            > This might sound like a ridiculous question, but:What were we before the
                            > advent of the m378 mutation? How does that compare with other branches of
                            > "Q"?
                            >
                            > Regards
                            > Mike jaron
                            >
                            >
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
                          • Rebekah Adele Canada
                            Hi, L245 and L272 are available through advanced orders in your myFTDNA account. About the new ones, you will need to ask Max Blankfeld, max@familytreedna.com.
                            Message 13 of 16 , Aug 22 11:00 PM
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Hi,

                              L245 and L272 are available through advanced orders in your myFTDNA account.

                              About the new ones, you will need to ask Max Blankfeld, max@.... They were missed in FTDNA's last update even though they were discovered well before it. I think that the Y-DNA SNP guy at FTDNA, Thomas Krahn is swamped and overwhelmed.

                              ---
                              Regards,
                              Rebekah A. Canada
                              Volunteer Administrator, Family Tree DNA
                              H & HV mtDNA Hg Project
                              Q Y-DNA Hg Project, I-P109 Y-DNA Hg Project, Scandinavian Y-DNA Project
                              http://www.google.com/profiles/rebekahthorn
                              http://friendfeed.com/rebekahthorn


                              On Mon, Aug 23, 2010 at 1:34 AM, Dave <dshoward@...> wrote:
                              Rebekah,
                              ...

                               
                              Thanks for the update.

                              So is Family Tree DNA going to sell us a test for L245, L272, L315, L301 and L327? Hasn't this work been done by the scientists already? Do you know the results for me?

                              Thanks always,

                              Dave
                            • Chris Baysinger
                              Where is the L315 test? I tested Positive for L214, L215, L245 & L275 and Negative on the L272 [So not Sicilian, Darn, I thought I might a Saprano] and Where
                              Message 14 of 16 , Aug 22 11:01 PM
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Where is the L315 test? I tested Positive for L214, L215, L245 & L275 and Negative on the L272 [So not Sicilian, Darn, I thought I might a Saprano] and Where is the TMRC Calculator on the project page?



                                From: Dave <dshoward@...>
                                To: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Sun, August 22, 2010 10:44:53 PM
                                Subject: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Krupa Theory Ashina>>Khazars>>Askenazi Linked by Q1b is Not Supported by Science

                                 

                                Michael,

                                You have asked some great questions.

                                I wont tackle them all at once but consider this.

                                The M378 mutation probably took place about 12,000 years ago.

                                That means men with this marker were walking around for over 11,000 years before a guy with this marker walked into the camp of the Ashkenzim 800 years ago.

                                Where did he come from?

                                Not from the Khazars. They were long gone as a group and were probaby R1a1. Not from the Radhanites (my favorite theory for a while) because they were long gone.

                                Take a look at the Behar 2010 paper Rebeka posted here not that long ago. It explains a lot about Jewish yDNA.

                                I will take a crack at your other questions later.

                                Dave

                                --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, Michael Jaron <MLJARON@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Dave,
                                >
                                > Thank you for (finally) providing at least answers to some of my questions
                                > and hopefully enabling me to ask better ones!
                                >
                                > On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 8:27 PM, Dave <dshoward@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > > It appears that the Ashkenazi Jewish Q1b, with 67 markers tested, share
                                > > a common ancestor about 800 years ago.
                                > >
                                > 800 years takes us to around the 13th century. Genetic Mutations are
                                > random, but still something causes these mutations. What is this
                                > something? Some sort of shock to or circumstance affecting our biological
                                > makeup? Geophysical location and/or conditions?
                                >
                                > You point out that Palmer and Abrams are "right on the mode" in terms of SYS
                                > counts. I take it it this means that they are closest in relation to the
                                > "common ancestor"? (I realize that I may not be expressing things
                                > correctly!) Can some sort of illustration be made of who fits where and in
                                > these terms, who is closest to who? This might also better illustrate the
                                > migrations, especially as it relates to the "Family Finder".
                                > This might sound like a ridiculous question, but:What were we before the
                                > advent of the m378 mutation? How does that compare with other branches of
                                > "Q"?
                                >
                                > Regards
                                > Mike jaron
                                >
                                >
                                > >
                                > >
                                >


                              • Rebekah Adele Canada
                                Hi A.J., Please see my recent update on SNPs to the Q1bish group. We are making progress but it is oh so slow. ... Regards, Rebekah A. Canada Volunteer
                                Message 15 of 16 , Aug 24 3:11 AM
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Hi A.J.,

                                  Please see my recent update on SNPs to the Q1bish group. We are making progress but it is oh so slow.

                                  ---
                                  Regards,
                                  Rebekah A. Canada
                                  Volunteer Administrator, Family Tree DNA
                                  H & HV mtDNA Hg Project
                                  Q Y-DNA Hg Project, I-P109 Y-DNA Hg Project, Scandinavian Y-DNA Project
                                  http://www.google.com/profiles/rebekahthorn
                                  http://friendfeed.com/rebekahthorn


                                  On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 9:54 PM, Rebekah Adele Canada <rebekahthorn@...> wrote:
                                  Hi Dave,

                                  Not to pick on you or anything... ;-) ...but I have updated the Y-chromosome DNA Haplogroup Q's Draft Tree on the project website.


                                  To summarize:
                                  • Q-M378 (South Central Asia, Middle East, Mediterranean)
                                    • L245 (Armenian-Judeo-Sicilian) 
                                      • L272 (Sicilian)
                                      • L315 (Ukrainian Jew)
                                    • L301 (Iranian)
                                    • L327 (Azores Islands)
                                  Of course, much more testing is needed. For example, the person who's sample L301 was found in has not tested for L245, L315, or L327. Further, only the L301 discovery person and the two WTY M378+ people have results for L301. Unfortunately, L301, L315, and L327 are not currently sold to the public. Thus, advancing scientific knowledge of M378 and its new subclades is stifled.

                                  On a side note though... L301 is not in the Y-DNA Q project. Thus, the information I am able to obtain from FTDNA is limited. This is a good example of why I need everyone possible to join the project.


                                  ---
                                  Regards,
                                  Rebekah A. Canada
                                  Volunteer Administrator, Family Tree DNA
                                  H & HV mtDNA Hg Project
                                  Q Y-DNA Hg Project, I-P109 Y-DNA Hg Project, Scandinavian Y-DNA Project
                                  http://www.google.com/profiles/rebekahthorn
                                  http://friendfeed.com/rebekahthorn



                                  On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 8:27 PM, Dave <dshoward@...> wrote:
                                  Dear Q1b Cousins - It has been a while since I have posted.

                                  One of our Q1b cousins, Alfred Krupa, has spent a lot of thoughtful time
                                  and research attempting to link the Royal Ashinas, an almost mythical
                                  group from a place in northwestern China near the intersection of China
                                  with Mongolia and Kazakhstan. He theorizes that it may have been his own
                                  family, Krupa, and the yDNA Q1b that provided the link from the Royal
                                  Family of the Ashina with the Royal Family of the Khazars and that this
                                  linkage is the source of Ashkenazi Q1b yDNA.

                                  Freddy and I have been debating this in another forum and I thought I
                                  would share this brief summary here.

                                  While at one time many of us thought that the Khazars may have been the
                                  source of our Q yDNA this was before the M378 SNP had been discovered
                                  and before so much more information was known about our group. This
                                  linkage no longer makes sense.

                                  It appears that the Ashkenazi Jewish Q1b, with 67 markers tested, share
                                  a common ancestor about 800 years ago. This is far too recent for the
                                  Khazars which dissolved as a nation over 1,000 years ago or the
                                  Radhanites (my recent theory) who went out of business over 1,000 years
                                  ago.

                                  Based on the 2003 study by Behar et al published early 2004 almost all
                                  Haplogroup Q males in Central Europe are Jewish. The Khazars who merged
                                  in with the Hungarians, Austrians and a few other countries would have
                                  spread their Q yDNA  among the gentiles as well as the Jews had they
                                  been the source. This is not supported by the science. The Khazarian
                                  Haplogroup would be one  where there are many gentiles as well as Jews.
                                  The best candidate for Khazarian yDNA is R1a.

                                  The theory that the Khazars were the source of our Q1b haplogroup among
                                  the Ashkenazi Jewish people is now contra-factual (i.e. not true).

                                  I do not believe Freddy Krupa has conceded this point at all.

                                  Another point is that if he were the source of the M378 SNP for all the
                                  rest of us his STRs would be closer to the mode of all our SYS counts.
                                  However, he is on the fringe. He is not near the mode. It does not
                                  follow that he would be the source. Palmer and Abrams are right on the
                                  mode and are far from Krupa.

                                  I see no Q1b links us to the Royal Ashina or the Royal Khazars.is now in
                                  the category of nonsense and a hoax.

                                  I am sure Freddy will disagree but he has argued this with me endlessly.
                                  I am not convinced.

                                  Regards to all

                                  Dave Howard




                                • joel marks
                                  I am sorry to hear about your grandmother. Regards, Joel Marks ________________________________ From: Rebekah Adele Canada To: Q
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Aug 24 5:45 AM
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    I am sorry to hear about your grandmother.
                                     
                                    Regards,
                                     
                                    Joel Marks


                                    From: Rebekah Adele Canada <rebekahthorn@...>
                                    To: Q (Ashkenazi Group) <Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Sent: Tue, August 24, 2010 6:11:09 AM
                                    Subject: Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] Krupa Theory Ashina>>Khazars>>Askenazi Linked by Q1b is Not Supported by Science

                                     

                                    Hi A.J.,


                                    Please see my recent update on SNPs to the Q1bish group. We are making progress but it is oh so slow.

                                    ---
                                    Regards,
                                    Rebekah A. Canada
                                    Volunteer Administrator, Family Tree DNA
                                    H & HV mtDNA Hg Project
                                    Q Y-DNA Hg Project, I-P109 Y-DNA Hg Project, Scandinavian Y-DNA Project
                                    http://www.google.com/profiles/rebekahthorn
                                    http://friendfeed.com/rebekahthorn


                                    On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 9:54 PM, Rebekah Adele Canada <rebekahthorn@...> wrote:
                                    Hi Dave,

                                    Not to pick on you or anything... ;-) ...but I have updated the Y-chromosome DNA Haplogroup Q's Draft Tree on the project website.

                                    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ydna_q/default.aspx

                                    To summarize:
                                    • Q-M378 (South Central Asia, Middle East, Mediterranean)
                                      • L245 (Armenian-Judeo-Sicilian) 
                                        • L272 (Sicilian)
                                        • L315 (Ukrainian Jew)
                                      • L301 (Iranian)
                                      • L327 (Azores Islands)
                                    Of course, much more testing is needed. For example, the person who's sample L301 was found in has not tested for L245, L315, or L327. Further, only the L301 discovery person and the two WTY M378+ people have results for L301. Unfortunately, L301, L315, and L327 are not currently sold to the public. Thus, advancing scientific knowledge of M378 and its new subclades is stifled.

                                    On a side note though... L301 is not in the Y-DNA Q project. Thus, the information I am able to obtain from FTDNA is limited. This is a good example of why I need everyone possible to join the project.


                                    ---
                                    Regards,
                                    Rebekah A. Canada
                                    Volunteer Administrator, Family Tree DNA
                                    H & HV mtDNA Hg Project
                                    Q Y-DNA Hg Project, I-P109 Y-DNA Hg Project, Scandinavian Y-DNA Project
                                    http://www.google.com/profiles/rebekahthorn
                                    http://friendfeed.com/rebekahthorn



                                    On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 8:27 PM, Dave <dshoward@...> wrote:
                                    Dear Q1b Cousins - It has been a while since I have posted.

                                    One of our Q1b cousins, Alfred Krupa, has spent a lot of thoughtful time
                                    and research attempting to link the Royal Ashinas, an almost mythical
                                    group from a place in northwestern China near the intersection of China
                                    with Mongolia and Kazakhstan. He theorizes that it may have been his own
                                    family, Krupa, and the yDNA Q1b that provided the link from the Royal
                                    Family of the Ashina with the Royal Family of the Khazars and that this
                                    linkage is the source of Ashkenazi Q1b yDNA.

                                    Freddy and I have been debating this in another forum and I thought I
                                    would share this brief summary here.

                                    While at one time many of us thought that the Khazars may have been the
                                    source of our Q yDNA this was before the M378 SNP had been discovered
                                    and before so much more information was known about our group. This
                                    linkage no longer makes sense.

                                    It appears that the Ashkenazi Jewish Q1b, with 67 markers tested, share
                                    a common ancestor about 800 years ago. This is far too recent for the
                                    Khazars which dissolved as a nation over 1,000 years ago or the
                                    Radhanites (my recent theory) who went out of business over 1,000 years
                                    ago.

                                    Based on the 2003 study by Behar et al published early 2004 almost all
                                    Haplogroup Q males in Central Europe are Jewish. The Khazars who merged
                                    in with the Hungarians, Austrians and a few other countries would have
                                    spread their Q yDNA  among the gentiles as well as the Jews had they
                                    been the source. This is not supported by the science. The Khazarian
                                    Haplogroup would be one  where there are many gentiles as well as Jews.
                                    The best candidate for Khazarian yDNA is R1a.

                                    The theory that the Khazars were the source of our Q1b haplogroup among
                                    the Ashkenazi Jewish people is now contra-factual (i.e. not true).

                                    I do not believe Freddy Krupa has conceded this point at all.

                                    Another point is that if he were the source of the M378 SNP for all the
                                    rest of us his STRs would be closer to the mode of all our SYS counts.
                                    However, he is on the fringe. He is not near the mode. It does not
                                    follow that he would be the source. Palmer and Abrams are right on the
                                    mode and are far from Krupa.

                                    I see no Q1b links us to the Royal Ashina or the Royal Khazars.is now in
                                    the category of nonsense and a hoax.

                                    I am sure Freddy will disagree but he has argued this with me endlessly.
                                    I am not convinced.

                                    Regards to all

                                    Dave Howard




                                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.