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Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] New Narrative

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  • NADENE GOLDFOOT
    Right, but remember that these people s ancestors may have been Jewish way back when. In 70AD Jerusalem fell to the Romans. Masada fell to the Romans a
    Message 1 of 35 , Feb 11, 2010
      Right, but remember that these people's ancestors may have been Jewish way back when.  In 70AD Jerusalem fell to the Romans.  Masada fell to the Romans a little later.  Bar Kokhba fought the Romans in about 138 AD.  Jews were in Italy in ghettos and then spread out to Germany, and then onto Eastern Europe, etc.  We've gone back and forth from Europe and east again to the Ottoman Empire.  Then along came the Khazars in the 700's AD.  We were in Spain and in 1492 and had to leave or be killed, and went to Portugal, and then onto other places.  So just because someone is not Jewish today doesn't mean that their family wasn't long ago.  That's where dna is so interesting.  We do have Jewish people in India, China, even Switzerland, I bet.  We don't have a lot today, about 6 million in Israel and 6 million in the USA and a handful in other places now. 
       
      Yes, it's a plausible theory.  The interesting thing is that the Khazarians most likely married Jewish women, and Judaism is determined hereditarily if the mother is Jewish.  We sometimes are not sure of who the father is, you know.  DNA tests weren't available back in time.  She's also usually available to teach her children her values whereas the father is out on the road. 
      The fellow from England as the last ancestor known must have come from Russia/Lithuania/Poland, etc. before that.  Many of our ancestors had money to get to England but not to America, and there was lots of reasons to want to leave the ancestral home.  My own grandfather did this.  I still don't know how he got to the USA; last I found him was going from "Russia" to England to Canada and in a boat from Quebec.  He wound up in Idaho marrying my Jewish grandmother from Suwalki, Poland. 
      Nadene
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2010 7:17 PM
      Subject: RE: [Ashkenazi-Q] New Narrative

       

      It is a theory, but remember, Singh [India] is 28 generation away from you, twice as many as Mink at 14 generation. Beyond 14 generations, you have Biondo [Who, from what I recall is not Jewish], @ 17 Generations, The Mennonites @ 21-24 Generations, Maran [Turkey] @ 22 Generations, Magellan* [Portugal] @ 25 Generations and Again back to Singh. Singh is 19 generations from me.

      *Ferdinand Magellan, fought in the Battle of Diu

      Christopher D. Baysinger, cdbaysinger@ hotmail.com

      Dance like no one is watching. Sing like no one is listening. Love like you've never been hurt and live like it's heaven on Earth.

           Mark Twain

      A man can be free without being great, but no man can be great without being free.

           Kahlil Gibran






      To: Ashkenazi-Q@ yahoogroups. com
      From: goldfoot1@verizon. net
      Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 18:04:54 -0800
      Subject: Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] New Narrative

       

      Interesting.  I think you will enjoy getting the book, The Jews of Khazaria 2nd edition by Kevin Alan Brook.  It even has a time line on page 247-248 of the Khazars.  That's where I got my information.  He starts in the 6th century with 505AD and goes on to the 16th century from 1500 -1650 as I had written.  The Kingdom broke up much earlier but the people migrated all over the place.  Some were even taken as slaves to the Arabic regions of the Middle East including Iraq and Egypt.  They had to become slave soldiers called ghulams in the Abbasid Caliphate.   Supposedly some Khazars funded a glass factory in Grodno, Lithuania in the late 9th century. 
       
      Since I went into my ftdna page and did that Y search I can't get back into my page and check on anything.  I'm going to have to call ftdna about it, I guess.  I was hoping that turning off my computer at night would set it right again, but it didn't happen.
       
      Nadene
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2010 5:19 PM
      Subject: RE: [Ashkenazi-Q] New Narrative

       
      I am beginning to think it's [the Jewish Q1b] allot more resent. Between  an 14 Generations ago, 225-450 years ago, based on your distant report. Khazar vanished from history in the 10th century and there is no trace [I have seen] of Q1b among any Turkic peoples.
      Radites=Radanites

      User IDLast NameOriginHaplogroupTested WithMarkers ComparedGenetic Distance
      HRKW4GoldfootLithuania Q1b (tested) Family Tree DNA --
      HRKW4GoldfootLithuania Q1b (tested) Family Tree DNA 660
      7MZCHFriedmanO.Liszka, Hungary Q1b (tested) Family Tree DNA 669
      3pvs5SchoemannNeuerburg, Germany Q1b (tested) Family Tree DNA 6610
      BW3J4PalmerIndura, Belarus Q1b (tested) Family Tree DNA 6610
      JVCWWSundheimGloucestershire, England Q1b (tested) Family Tree DNA 6611
      G8WD3SchweitzerNew York (Brooklen?), Ukraine Q1b (tested) Family Tree DNA 6611
      B6ASGZeidmanUkraine Q1b (tested) Family Tree DNA 6611
      SXSXDSzekelyUnknown Q1b (tested) Family Tree DNA 6612
      Q6843HackinKozova, Galicia/Galizien/ Halychyna, Austria Q1b (tested) Family Tree DNA 6614
      QS4JZMichelsonKovna, Kovno, Kaunas, Lithuania Q1b (tested) Family Tree DNA 6613
      952FTShpolyanskyRovnoye, Ukraine Q1b (tested) Family Tree DNA 6613
      D7XMCHowardRezekne, Latvia Q1b (tested) Family Tree DNA 6614
      BSNXDMinkZhitomir, Ukraine Q1b (tested) Family Tree DNA 6614
      9A6GFBiondoItaly Q1b (tested) Family Tree DNA 6617
      FB88EBaysingerHermersweiler, Alsace/Elsass, France Q1b (tested) Family Tree DNA 6621
      K4H6JShockeySankt Stephan, Switzerland Q1b (tested) Family Tree DNA 6622
      NBUXDMaranIzmir, Turkey Q1b (tested) Family Tree DNA 6622
      7XTYBSchragWynigen, Switzerland Q1b (tested) Family Tree DNA 6624
      UZRBWMagellanUnknown Q1b (tested) Family Tree DNA 6625
      ESVPZSinghGurgoan, India Q1b* Family Tree DNA 6628
      748W7LitkeUnknown Q1b (tested) Family Tree DNA 6636











      Christopher D. Baysinger, cdbaysinger@ hotmail.com

      Dance like no one is watching. Sing like no one is listening. Love like you've never been hurt and live like it's heaven on Earth.

           Mark Twain

      A man can be free without being great, but no man can be great without being free.

           Kahlil Gibran






      To: Ashkenazi-Q@ yahoogroups. com
      From: goldfoot1@verizon. net
      Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 16:02:44 -0800
      Subject: Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] New Narrative

       

      Chis,
      Are the Radites the same people as the Radanites who were Jewish merchants who traveled in the 9th century between S France and China? They spoke Arabic, Persian, Roman and the languages of the Franks, Andalusians and Slavs.  They must have been able to read Hebrew also if they were Jewish.  There were 4 trade-routes they followed.
      1. from Mediterranian to Alexandria overland to the Red Sea
      and by the Indian Ocean to the China Sea
      2. Overland via Damascus, Baghdad, and Basra and then continued as on #1.
      3. All overland across N. Africa to Palestine, Baghdad and then into the interior of China
      4. Across central Europe.
      Information from New Standard Jewish Encyclopedia
      They got around and covered a lot of territory.They were already Jewish.
       
      I'll still go with Q1b coming from Khazarian Jews. 
      In year 678AD Jews lived on the Taman Peninsula in large numbers.
      By 723-944 Jews moved to Khazaria from the Middle East because of anti-Jewish persecutions.
      By 800-809 the Khazar king Bulan converts to Judaism. Khazaria is sitting on the Silk road to China.   The Ashina Royal Dynasty of Khazaria converts-others may do as they chose in the kingdom.  This is where Bulan listened to representatives of the 3 religions, Judaism, Christianity and Muslim and he chose Judaism for his realm "royal family only". 
      820-840 Khazars found part of Kiev "Sambata and established a garrison there.
      930s Khazar king Aaron allies with the Alans, who adopt Judaism. 
      955-970 Duke taksony is said to invite Khazar Jews to Hungary.
      1100-1150-Jewish Khazars settle in central Romania
      1206-Khazar Jews use a form of the Cyrillic script for writing
      1309 Hungarian clergy declares that Catholics cannot marry "Khazars."
      1500-1650 Descendants of Jewish Khazars in the Lithuanian Grand Duchy adopt the Yiddish language.
      Alfred Krupa has established his line of Krupa from about the 1200's as from the Ashina Royal Dynasty.  He has awfully good credentials.  Those of Q1b who are close to his alleles would fit into this grouping. 
       
      Both the Radanites and Khazarians had Jewish traders in pretty much the same business. 
      Nadene
       
       
       
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2010 2:30 PM
      Subject: [Ashkenazi-Q] New Narrative

       
      After looking at Rebekkah's Diagram, an alternative narrative to the the Radites can be constructed, that the Portuguese Navy after the Battle of Diu, c. 1500, impressed Indians/Sindh, Q1b gets to Europe, Marries or is adopted into a Jewish family, they get expelled from Portugal, c. 1510, head to France and the HRM, those that convert to Christianity stay there, those that don't moved to Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, c. 1570. Thought?


      Christopher D. Baysinger, cdbaysinger@ hotmail.com

      Dance like no one is watching. Sing like no one is listening. Love like you've never been hurt and live like it's heaven on Earth.

           Mark Twain

      A man can be free without being great, but no man can be great without being free.

           Kahlil Gibran






      To: Ashkenazi-Q@ yahoogroups. com
      From: goldfoot1@verizon. net
      Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 10:01:01 -0800
      Subject: Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Haplogroup Q? maybejavascript: ;

       

      Oh.  Now I understand. 
      I just checked my Websters New World Hebrew dictionary and found the phrase Maranan ve-rabotay!  spelled mem raish nun nun sofeit which is "my learned friends".  so Wikipedia is very close or correct, I would think. 
      Nadene ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2010 6:01 PM
      Subject: RE: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Haplogroup Q? maybejavascript: ;

       
      That's the Wikipedia result for Maran, so I was questioning the reliability of wikipedia by getting a confirmation. From anyone.


      Christopher D. Baysinger, cdbaysinger@ hotmail.com

      Dance like no one is watching. Sing like no one is listening. Love like you've never been hurt and live like it's heaven on Earth.

           Mark Twain

      A man can be free without being great, but no man can be great without being free.

           Kahlil Gibran






      To: Ashkenazi-Q@ yahoogroups. com
      From: goldfoot1@verizon. net
      Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 17:53:33 -0800
      Subject: Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Haplogroup Q? maybejavascript: ;

       

      Are you asking or telling?  I must have missed some previous conversation, but I just looked up Maran in my The New Standard Jewish Encyclopedia and it isn't listed.
      However, it did mention Mar which in modern Hebrew is "Mr." 
      Nadene
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2010 5:38 PM
      Subject: RE: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Haplogroup Q? maybejavascript: ;

       
      So outlyer Maran: Maran is a title for exceptionally respected rabbis? The term is more prevalent among Sephardi Jews, but may also be used by Ashkenazi Haredi Jews.


      Christopher D. Baysinger, cdbaysinger@ hotmail.com

      Dance like no one is watching. Sing like no one is listening. Love like you've never been hurt and live like it's heaven on Earth.

           Mark Twain

      A man can be free without being great, but no man can be great without being free.

           Kahlil Gibran






      To: ashkenazi-q@ yahoogroups. com
      From: cdbaysinger@ hotmail.com
      Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 11:24:28 -0800
      Subject: RE: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Haplogroup Q? maybejavascript: ;

       

      On y-search you can do a distance search by haplogroup, if you go to ysearch could you tell me your distance from Singh? I got 19 generation, and 21 for Goldfoot. I am curious if you were 4 generations apart or probable less.

      Christopher D. Baysinger, cdbaysinger@ hotmail.com

      Dance like no one is watching. Sing like no one is listening. Love like you've never been hurt and live like it's heaven on Earth.

           Mark Twain

      A man can be free without being great, but no man can be great without being free.

           Kahlil Gibran






      To: Ashkenazi-Q@ yahoogroups. com
      From: goldfoot1@verizon. net
      Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 08:49:48 -0800
      Subject: Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Haplogroup Q? maybe

       

      Chris,
      It's interesting that two are from Switzerland.  Is there a list of all of us Q1b's and where we originate last known?  This is only 6 of us.  I know Krupa is from Poland.  Two of us are from Lithuania (2 Goldfoots).   
       
      Nadene
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2010 3:03 AM
      Subject: RE: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Haplogroup Q? maybe

       
      So based on [http://friendfeed- media.com/ ddc5af88827bcd61 443ed8cbbeabfcd4 390888c3] It goes 53682-->Singh[India] -->Magellan[Portugal] -->Baysinger[Switzerla nd]-->Shockey[Switzerland]-->Askenazi Q Model type (Goldfoot[Lithuania]) -->Maran[Turkey] ?
                                                                                                                                                                                -->Biondo [Italy]?
                                                                                                                                                                                 -->Riley [Ireland?]?
                                                                                                                                                                                 --> Marlow [Scotland?]                                                                                                                                                                              

      Christopher D. Baysinger, cdbaysinger@ hotmail.com

      Dance like no one is watching. Sing like no one is listening. Love like you've never been hurt and live like it's heaven on Earth.

           Mark Twain

      A man can be free without being great, but no man can be great without being free.

           Kahlil Gibran






      To: Ashkenazi-Q@ yahoogroups. com
      From: rebekahthorn@ gmail.com
      Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 23:41:58 -0600
      Subject: Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Haplogroup Q? maybe

       

      Hi,
       
      In this case, I was looking at the results that berrarabbits posted.
       
      Best,
      Rebekah


      On Mon, Feb 8, 2010 at 7:14 PM, BJMVA <bjmva@verizon. net> wrote:


      Rebekah, are you talking to the group or are you specific to my brother, Billy Marlow?  My cousin, Bobby Lee Marlow will soon be sending his test in.
       
      BJ Marlow
       



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    • christopher baysinger
      Yeah, I got an exact match [67] with a 7th cousin [10 generation] Christopher D. Baysinger, cdbaysinger@hotmail.com Dance like no one is watching. Sing like no
      Message 35 of 35 , Feb 13, 2010
        Yeah, I got an exact match [67] with a 7th cousin [10 generation]

        Christopher D. Baysinger, cdbaysinger@...

        Dance like no one is watching. Sing like no one is listening. Love like you've never been hurt and live like it's heaven on Earth.

             Mark Twain

        A man can be free without being great, but no man can be great without being free.

             Kahlil Gibran






        To: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com
        From: Vick@...
        Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2010 09:20:20 -0600
        Subject: RE: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Haplogroup Q? maybejavascript:;

         

        So,

         

         One difference in markers “could” mean 1 X 25 years, but 20 genetic distances “could” actually mean 20  to the 25 power  or 20 X (25 squared) = 12,500 years rather than the simple 20 X 25 = 500 years I generally consider.

         

         Thus a genetic distance of 20 “could” be anywhere from 500 to 12,500 years?  500 if 20 markers were one difference with exact no random mutations, or 12,500 if the variable mutations took there normal common random separations of 2 at one marker & the same at others?

         

         Any corrections would be appreciated.

         

        Cheers, Bob

         

         

         

         

         

         


        From: Ashkenazi-Q@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:Ashkenazi-Q@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Rebekah Canada
        Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2010 11:32 PM
        To: Ashkenazi-Q@ yahoogroups. com
        Subject: Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Haplogroup Q? maybejavascript: ;

         

         

        Hi,

        The genetic distance as used on ySearch is not generations. Rather, it
        is the actual sum of differences between you and the other Q1b
        (Q-M378s).

        Example:
        Say you have DYS391 = 10 and someone else has DYS391 = 11. The genetic
        distance between you is 1 for that STR marker.

        Best,
        Rebekah




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