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869Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Origin

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  • joel marks
    Oct 2, 2009
      Hi Chris,
       
      I really chuckled when you mentioned Hadassah and Queen Esther.  Both Hadassah and Queen Esther are "stars".
       
      The reason I smiled was that I am the National President of the Hadassah Associates, the "men's division" of Hadassah.  Hadassah is the womens zionist organization of America, some 300,000 strong between men and women.
       
      Lots of interesting stuff with all of our "families".
       
      Joel Marks


      From: christopher baysinger <cdbaysinger@...>
      To: ashkenazi-q@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Friday, October 2, 2009 2:41:26 PM
      Subject: RE: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Origin

       


      Reign of Xerxes 485 to 465 BC

      Christopher D. Baysinger, cdbaysinger@ hotmail.com

      Dance like no one is watching. Sing like no one is listening. Love like you've never been hurt and live like it's heaven on Earth.

           Mark Twain

      A man can be free without being great, but no man can be great without being free.

           Kahlil Gibran






      To: Ashkenazi-Q@ yahoogroups. com
      From: goldfoot1@verizon. net
      Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 07:46:39 -0700
      Subject: Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Origin

       
      
      Chris,
      What years did Ahashuaros rule in?  That would be interesting to know.  Nadene
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Friday, October 02, 2009 12:13 AM
      Subject: RE: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Origin

       

      Hadassah was queen of the sindh long before anyone ever hear of a Khazer!!!



      Christopher D. Baysinger, cdbaysinger@ hotmail.com

      Dance like no one is watching. Sing like no one is listening. Love like you've never been hurt and live like it's heaven on Earth.

           Mark Twain

      A man can be free without being great, but no man can be great without being free.

           Kahlil Gibran






      To: Ashkenazi-Q@ yahoogroups. com
      From: adam_bratter@ yahoo.com
      Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 03:18:12 +0000
      Subject: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Origin

       
      Dear Alfred and fellow board members

      We have spoken previously, I am in your project and you have classified me as #18 under Ashina-Bek my kit is 140975.

      On Jewish_Q -- YDNA Haplogroup Q1b of European Descent I am number #97 unassigned.

      On yDNA Haplogroup Q Project I am #168 under Q-M378.

      Still unsure of what my fathers ancestry is due to all of the discussion on the board. Just curious if any conclusion was reached?

      Seems we are all related! So I should see you all as cousins :)

      One thing me and my father have decided is that our paternal ancestry probably does not go back to the middle east as the Y Haplogroup Q started in Siberia - so years of thinking we were Jews in terms of having origins back to the ancient state of Israel is false.

      Thanks!
      Adam

      --- In Ashkenazi-Q@ yahoogroups. com, KRUPA <mladen.krupa@ ...> wrote:
      >
      > Dear Adam,
      >
      > As You know that beside Rebekah's and Dave's Y-DNA Project, there
      > is 3rd one-Ashina.
      > I am the administrator.
      > Before some time I have placed my research (for my family) in
      > this forum. Below You will find (and all others) updated
      > material. It is under constant change. It has been focused on my
      > family informations, scientific and non-scientific (oral
      > traditions, personal contacts etc.). Full material is above 100
      > pages now.
      >
      > Regards,
      >
      > Alfred Krupa prof.MFA
      > Croatia
      >
      >
      > Royal A-SHINA(S) (ANSA) tribe of The Huns (XIONGNU), Western
      > Celestial Turks (ONOQ) and (K)HAZARS
      >
      > (K)HAZAR Y-DNA LINK FOR THE KRUPA FAMILY
      > ×™×"ו×"×™ ×�שכנז Yehudei Ashkenaz (Ashkenazi Q1b Y-DNA
      > “fingerprint�)
      >
      > Compilation of noteworthy facts and clues with references;
      >
      > „Just as later nomadic empires were confederations of many
      > peoples, we may tentatively propose that the ruling groups of
      > these invaders were, or at least included, Turkic-speaking
      > tribesman from the east and north. Although most probably the
      > bulk of the people in the confederation of Chionites and then
      > Hephtalites spoke an Iranian language and this was the last time
      > in the history of Central Asia that Iranian-speaking nomads
      > played any role; hereafter all nomads would speak Turkic
      > languages.“ Richard Nelson Frye
      > „The Khazars originated from the distant East, from the border
      > areas of China. In the seventh century, they were swept by the
      > Great Migrations to the mouth of the River Volga and the shores
      > of the Caspian Sea“ György Balázs, The Magyars. Budapest:
      > Corvina, 1989
      > Between the years 265 and 460 the Ashina had been part of various
      > late Xiongnu (HUN) confederations.
      > (http://www.republic anchina.org/ Turks.html)
      > "Ashina -- the Royal clan of the Blue Turks (and possibly earlier
      > the Huns) and later of the Khazars..."/ Norman J. Finkelshteyn/
      > „…the second stage began in the middle of the 5th century
      > when "500 FAMILIES" OF THE ASHINA CLAN headed by Asyanshud were
      > moved by the Rurans from Gaochang to the southern part of the
      > Altai. Here the migrants joined the ranks of the Turk tribal
      > unit.“ S.P.Nesterov, The Old Turks in Central Asia and Southern
      > Siberia
      > * Khazar Beks - The Beks were warlords, military commanders who
      > exercised considerable day-to-day authority, and were sometimes
      > regarded by outsiders as the supreme lords of the Khazar Nation
      > (http://starnarcosis .net/obsidian/ siberia.html)
      > *Although basically Turkic, the Khazar state bore little
      > resemblance to the other Turkic empires of central Eurasia. It
      > was headed by a secluded supreme ruler of semireligious
      > character called a khaganâ€"who wielded little real powerâ€"and
      > by tribal chieftains, EACH KNOWN AS A BEG."(Encyclopedia
      > Britannica)
      > * According to The New Standard Jewish Encyclopedia the ruling
      > class of the Khazarian Empire - sacred Khagan Bulan and 4000 OF
      > HIS NOBLES from ancient "Turkish" shamanism converted to Judaism
      > in the 8th century.
      >
      > *… Ashina Qaghans ruled by virtue of heavenly mandated charisma
      > (QUT)… THIS CHARISMA (QUT) RESIDED IN THE ENTIRE ROYAL
      > CLAN…(http://au.encarta. msn.com)
      >
      > *Assoc.Press; „..Vasilyev said the limited number of Jewish
      > religious artifacts such as mezuzahs and Stars of David found at
      > other Khazar sites prove that ordinary Khazars preferred
      > traditional beliefs such as shamanism, or newly introduced
      > religions including Islam… Yevgeny Satanovsky, director of the
      > Middle Eastern Institute in Moscow, said he thinks the Khazar
      > elite chose Judaism out of political expediency…“
      >
      > * Bey is a Turkish title for "chieftain“… many Turkish, other
      > Turkic and Persian leaders are titled Bey, Beg, Bek, Bay, Baig or
      > Beigh. They are all the same word with the simple meaning of
      > "lord".(source; Wikipedia article about BEG title)
      >
      > 1. Krupa is the Polish-Russian /Slavic/ form of Turkic ARPA or
      > ARPAG, with the same meaning; barley,barley grain, barley fruits
      > ,- according „Jewish Family Names and Their Origins“,by
      > Heinrich Walter Guggenheimer, Eva H., but it is also founded in
      > north-west India/Bangladesh (E.Pakistan) , unchanged â€"as Krupa
      > .
      >
      > 2. Krupa on Sanskrit means „compassion“ (grace) according to
      > the „Apte's Sanskrit -English dictionary“
      > http://www.indiadiv ine.org/audarya/ shakti-sadhana/ 121148-krupa- prasada-kataxa. html
      >
      > 3. Krupa, a Hindu name for a female meaning grace, mercy, favor,
      > love, passion, compassion, forgiveness, blessings, and hope
      > http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Krupa
      >
      > 4. According to the World Surname Locator, Ashina as surname is
      > in use in India (and Japan, but that is Japanese Clan).
      > Interestingly, not in Central Asia, China or Mongolia, or
      > anywhere else in world.
      >
      > 5. Form of address for european Duke (lat.Dux), military warlord
      > and ruler, considered as equal to Turkic Beg (Bek,Beig etc.), is
      > „His Grace“ (Grace, compassion=Krupa) .
      >
      > The regions or provinces where Beys (the equivalent of duke in
      > Europe) ruled or which they administered were called Beylik,
      > roughly meaning "emirate" or "principality" in the first case,
      > "province" or "governorate" in the second (the equivalent of
      > duchy in Europe).
      > Bey or a variation has also been used as an aristocratic title in
      > various Turkic states, such as Bäk in the Tatar Khanate of
      > Kazan, in charge of a Beylik called Bäklek. The Balkar princes
      > in the North Caucasus highlands were known as taubiy (taubey),
      > meaning the "mountainous chief". (From Wikipedia, the free
      > encyclopedia)
      >
      > 6. Tarnawa is the SHIELD (CoA) and the CLAN of Poland
      > traditionaly associated /in old Polish-Lithuanian armorials/
      > with the Krupa noble family (among other families), and it is
      > labeled as a shield of „szlachta odwieczna“- “Uradel“ (a
      > nobility from ever, self-rooted nobility, ancient nobility,root
      > nobility) http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Tarnawa_coat_ of_arms
      >
      > 7. The Polish Nobility emerged as a clan (family or tribe) system
      > before 1000 A.D. Each clan had its own mark, a tamga, which
      > eventually evolved into the symbols found on Polish coats of
      > arms. http://www.angelfir e.com/mi4/ polcrt/PolNobili ty.html
      > Crown used on Tarnawa CoA (like on other Polish arms) are often
      > described , in heraldic terminology, as „ducal“.
      >
      > 8. The oldest, original latin text of J.Dlugosz speaks about
      > Petrus Krupa de Tarnawa family. Krupa de Tarnawa in translation
      > from Latin means Krupa of Tarnawa or Krupa from Tarnawa,
      > designating Tarnawa as a place/location. Krupa herb Tanawa in
      > translation from Polish means just Krupa - Coat of Arms Tarnawa.
      >
      > 9. Tarnawa is a name of several places on territory of the
      > Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth (Kingdom), mainly in
      > Galicia.There is also example in Bulgaria.
      >
      > 10. Tarnawa is the city in Northern Pakistan in Hazara region (in
      > Karakorum Mtns. region), and the place in Hazarajat (Hazaristan)
      > in Afghanistan (in Hindu Kush Mtns.).
      > http://wikimapia. org/10055074/ Tarnawa-Dogah- Edited-by- Shahzad-Satti
      > http://www.fallingr ain.com/world/ AF/28/Tarnawa. html
      >
      > 11.Tarnawa name AS EXACT SPELLING (name of
      > places,nickname, personal name, label..etc.) is not recorded
      > anywhere else in world, except in northern Pakistan and
      > Afghanistan, and in former Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth
      > (Eastern Europe), and no „other“ Krupa family „emerged“
      > with „noble“ancestry claim (very important fact as Krupa in
      > exact spelling is oftenly met surname among Roman Catholics,
      > Greek-Byzantine Catholics and Jews, troughout Eastern Europe,
      > and as name in Indian subcontinent)
      >
      > 12. The Indian Kushan Empire ( c. 1stâ€"3rd centuries ) among
      > other covered area /earlier Indo-Greek BACTRIA /currently
      > inhabited with the Hazara and Sindhi population, only noted
      > carrier of the Q1b SNP mutation, beside Ashkenazi Jews of
      > Eastern Europe (except in some other individual cases)
      >
      > 13. The Indian Kushan Empire covered area of northern
      > Afghanistan, the whole Pakistan,northern India, southern
      > Uzbekistan and Tajikistan and area of North-West China
      > (Xinjiang-Turkestan ) â€" the ultimate home of the Ashina Royal
      > Tribe of Turks („original 500 families“)
      > We assume that legacy and heritage of the Indian Kushan Empire
      > (Yuezhi) is responsible for original association of Krupa
      > name/form of address with White Hun-Turkic bloodline, later the
      > Krupa family.
      >
      > 14. The very same case, as with The Kushan Empire, is with The
      > White Hun Empire.
      > The Hephthalites or White Huns were a Central Asian nomadic
      > confederation whose precise origins and composition remain
      > obscure. They were called Sveta Huna ("White Huns") by the
      > Indians. According to Chinese chronicles they were originally a
      > tribe living to the north of the Great Wall and were known as
      > Hoa or Hoa-tun. Elsewhere they were called White Huns. They had
      > no cities or system of writing, and lived in felt tents. For
      > many years, scholars suggested that they were possibly of Turkic
      > stock, and it seems likely that at least some groups amongst the
      > Hephthalites were Turkic-speakers.
      > Chinese chronicles state that they were originally a tribe of the
      > Yuezhi, living to the north of the Great Wall, and subject to the
      > Rouran (Jwen-Jwen), as were some Turkic peoples at the time.
      > Their original name was Hoa or Hoa-tun; subsequently they named
      > themselves Ye-tha-i-li- to, after their royal family, which
      > descended from one of the five Yuezhi families which also
      > included the Kushan.(From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)
      >
      > 15. “With the discovery of haplogroup Q among Ashkenazi Jews,
      > DNA researchers may have found the “smoking gun� of
      > Khazarian ancestry.“ (A MOSAIC OF PEOPLE: THE JEWISH STORY AND
      > A REASSESSMENT OF THE DNA EVIDENCE ,Ellen Levy-Coffman)
      >
      > 16. "..I agree that it is likely that the presence of haplogroup
      > Q among
      > Ashkenazic Jews could come from descent from the Khazars". (Kevin
      > Brook ,author of The Jews of Khazaria (Second Edition: Rowman &
      > Littlefield, 2006) in open respond to D.Howard administrator of
      > the Ashkenazi-Q Yahoo group)
      >
      > 17. Astrakhan State University (Dmitry Vasilyev) trough
      > excavations funded by the Russian-Jewish Congress, proven that
      > conversion of Khazars to Judaism was indeed limited only to a
      > very narrow circle-ruling imperial class. (The Associated Press
      > , „Scholar Says Ruins Are Medieval Jewish Capital“
      > Published: September 21, 2008)
      >
      > 18. One founded 6-letter Khazar runic word means "I have read
      > [it]". It was written on the bottom of the Kievan Letter, a
      > document written by the (possibly-Khazar) Jews of Kiev in the
      > early 10th century. The signatures on the Kievan Letter are of
      > mixed Hebrew (ex: Yitzhak, Sinai, Yehudah) and Turkic/Slavic
      > (ex: Manas, Gostata) origins, apparently indicating enviroment
      > of rich and diverse linguistic heritage of the Khazarian/Turkic
      > society, certainly allowing survival of words „Krupa“ (Arpa)
      > and „Tarnawa“ (and 4-equal barr cross as tamga)
      >
      > 19. This Krupa family is of Ashkenazi Jewish ancestry (mainly of
      > former Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and Russia), as visible in
      > lists of 12, 25, 37 and 67 Y-DNA matches, within containing
      > significant number of matches with Levit tradition (and some of
      > Cohanim tradition). In some other lines-branches of this
      > Ashkenazi Q1b family, Levit status has been obviously
      > remmembered and preserved, in this particular branch that was
      > case with „Krupa-Grace“ („lordship“) identity.
      > The Krupa family Y-DNA has been tested at the FamilyTree
      > DNA,Houston- Texas; the pioneer and the world's largest DNA
      > testing company in the new field of genetic genealogy. Jewish
      > comparative databases in FTDNA are the largest in the world,
      > containing records for Ashkenazim and Sephardim, as well as
      > Levites and Cohanim.
      >
      > 20. …szlachta simply addressed each other by their given name
      > or as "Sir Brother" (Panie bracie) or the feminine equivalent.
      > The other forms of address would be "Illustrious and Magnificent
      > Lord", "Magnificent Lord", "Generous Lord" or "Noble Lord" (in
      > decreasing order) or simply "His/Her Grace Lord/Lady XYZ".
      > (Wikipedia about Szlachta)
      >
      > 21. This Krupa family is carrier of a rare haplogroup Q1b (M378)
      > mutation, as subclade of Q (M242) „asiatic“ or
      > „mongolic“ haplogroup
      > http://m242. haplogroup. org/?do=search& id=krupa
      >
      > 22. Q1b (M378) found in 5% of Ashkenazi Jews and at low frequency
      > among samples of Hazara, Sindhis, and nowhere else so far (except
      > in some individual cases)-meaning in south-western Central Asia
      > ("Sengupta2006" -Sanghamitra Sengupta, Lev A. Zhivotovsky, Roy
      > King, S.Q. Mehdi, Christopher A. Edmonds, Cheryl-Emiliane T.
      > Chow, Alice A. Lin, Mitashree Mitra, Samir K. Sil, A. Ramesh,
      > M.V. Usha Rani, Chitra M. Thakur, L. Luca Cavalli-Sforza, Partha
      > P. Majumder, and Peter A. Underhill, "Polarity and Temporality of
      > High-Resolution Y-Chromosome Distributions in India Identify Both
      > Indigenous and Exogenous Expansions and Reveal Minor Genetic
      > Influence of Central Asian Pastoralists, " ''The American Journal
      > of Human Genetics'', Volume 78, Issue 2, 202-221, 1 February
      > 2006.)
      > The Haz�ra are a Persian-speaking people residing in the central
      > region of Afghanistan (referred to as Hazarajat) and northwestern
      > Pakistan. The Hazara are predominantly Shī‘ī Muslims and are
      > the third largest ethnic group in Afghanistan, composing ca. 10%
      > of the population. Hazaras can also be found in large numbers in
      > neighboring Iran and Pakistan, primarily as refugees, and as
      > diaspora around the world.
      > http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Hazara_people
      > The Sindhis are a Sindhi speaking socio-ethnic group of people
      > originating from Sindh, a province of Pakistan. Today Sindhis
      > that live in Pakistan belong to various religious denominations
      > including but not limited to Muslim, Zorastrian, Hindus and
      > Christians. After the Partition of India in 1947, a large number
      > of Indian Muslim refugees(Muhajirs) flocked into Pakistan and
      > settled in the prosperous Sindh region. At the same time Sindhi
      > Hindus migrated to India in large numbers.
      > From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
      >
      > 23. There is located distant Q1b match from India from the
      > Brahman Caste (hereditary Hindu priestly caste, alike Levit
      > caste in Hebrews).
      > http://m242. haplogroup. org/?do=search& id=krupa
      >
      > 24. Q1b matches from Central Asia /most distant known ancestral
      > origins from Pakistan,Afghanista n,Uzbekistan etc./ ,visible in
      > Q-DNA Project and in the Ashina Royal Dynasty DNA Project,
      > clearly shows our Silk Road/Lazurite Route path from
      > Afghanistan/ Pakistan, North-West China/South Siberia to Eastern
      > Europe.
      > Those matches are not so close to us, Ashkenazi Q1b, but still
      > relat.gen.close, and not Jews (!), meaning that there was
      > religious conversion and that conversion took place at some
      > point after our ancestors branched.
      > One group remained in Central Asia, others (the Krupa family
      > ancestors among them) moved to China (Xinjiang), after that to
      > Europe (future Khazaria) via Altai Mountains area (here the
      > migrants joined the ranks of the Turk tribal unit) and accepted
      > Judaism in, what is today, South Russia. From the Kushan Empire,
      > the White Hun Empire, the Xiongnu Empire, the Gok-Turk Empire,
      > then trough the Khazarian Empire ,to the old Kingdom of Poland.
      > Total Khazar story and 1st millennium story
      >
      > 25. Q1b IS FOUND IN EUROPE ALMOST ONLY WITHIN ASHKENAZI GENETIC
      > POOL, CREATING SPECIFIC ASHKENAZI Q1b HAPLOTYPE, WHICH MEANS
      > THAT PRESENCE IN EUROPE IS ALMOST 0% (DISTRIBUTION OF HAPLOGROUP
      > Q WITH ALL KNOWN SUBCLADES IN EUROPE IS 0.61%)
      >
      > Conclusion;
      > There is a complete, exact and full match of the surname, the
      > noble clan/shield name, the town and places names, legal basis
      > for nobilitation, ancestral geographical locations and locations
      > of restricted distribution of specific and rare Y-DNA
      > (haplogroup) plus confirming TMRCA* calculations; -in places
      > where we see Q1b's examples we find both names Krupa and
      > Tarnawa, as well we have several options for possible origins of
      > heraldic Tarnawa, including number of old Runic and Indian
      > scriptures (Brahmi,Kharoshti etc.) and original meaning of word
      > Krupa (applicable to the Krupa family in question) ,all in the
      > very same places.
      >
      > Suggested origin;
      > Yuezhi Royal families of Turkic stock ruled over Indian Kushan
      > Empire and Turkic White Hun Empire (Hepthalites) , remnants
      > later joined Ashina Royal Tribe as part of the Xiongnu (Hun)
      > confederation, and after that of the Gok--Turks (Celestial
      > Turks) and consequently of Khazars in southeastern Europe.
      > „Tarnawa“ seal was possibly just one of the seals of this
      > blood line, with origin in triangle of
      > Hindukush-Pamir- Karakoram, but with very beginning within
      > ancient Sumerian civilisation (this type of cross is symbol of
      > "Nibiru" planet in Sumer. Mythology).
      >
      >
      >
      >
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