856RE: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Origin
- Oct 2, 2009
Hadassah was queen of the sindh long before anyone ever hear of a Khazer!!!
Christopher D. Baysinger, cdbaysinger@...
Dance like no one is watching. Sing like no one is listening. Love like you've never been hurt and live like it's heaven on Earth.
A man can be free without being great, but no man can be great without being free.
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 03:18:12 +0000
Subject: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: OriginDear Alfred and fellow board members
We have spoken previously, I am in your project and you have classified me as #18 under Ashina-Bek my kit is 140975.
On Jewish_Q -- YDNA Haplogroup Q1b of European Descent I am number #97 unassigned.
On yDNA Haplogroup Q Project I am #168 under Q-M378.
Still unsure of what my fathers ancestry is due to all of the discussion on the board. Just curious if any conclusion was reached?
Seems we are all related! So I should see you all as cousins :)
One thing me and my father have decided is that our paternal ancestry probably does not go back to the middle east as the Y Haplogroup Q started in Siberia - so years of thinking we were Jews in terms of having origins back to the ancient state of Israel is false.
--- In Ashkenazi-Q@ yahoogroups. com, KRUPA <mladen.krupa@ ...> wrote:
> Dear Adam,
> As You know that beside Rebekah's and Dave's Y-DNA Project, there
> is 3rd one-Ashina.
> I am the administrator.
> Before some time I have placed my research (for my family) in
> this forum. Below You will find (and all others) updated
> material. It is under constant change. It has been focused on my
> family informations, scientific and non-scientific (oral
> traditions, personal contacts etc.). Full material is above 100
> pages now.
> Alfred Krupa prof.MFA
> Royal A-SHINA(S) (ANSA) tribe of The Huns (XIONGNU), Western
> Celestial Turks (ONOQ) and (K)HAZARS
> (K)HAZAR Y-DNA LINK FOR THE KRUPA FAMILY
> ×™×"×•×"×™ ×�×©×›× ×– Yehudei Ashkenaz (Ashkenazi Q1b Y-DNA
> Compilation of noteworthy facts and clues with references;
> â€žJust as later nomadic empires were confederations of many
> peoples, we may tentatively propose that the ruling groups of
> these invaders were, or at least included, Turkic-speaking
> tribesman from the east and north. Although most probably the
> bulk of the people in the confederation of Chionites and then
> Hephtalites spoke an Iranian language and this was the last time
> in the history of Central Asia that Iranian-speaking nomads
> played any role; hereafter all nomads would speak Turkic
> languages.â€œ Richard Nelson Frye
> â€žThe Khazars originated from the distant East, from the border
> areas of China. In the seventh century, they were swept by the
> Great Migrations to the mouth of the River Volga and the shores
> of the Caspian Seaâ€œ GyÃ¶rgy BalÃ¡zs, The Magyars. Budapest:
> Corvina, 1989
> Between the years 265 and 460 the Ashina had been part of various
> late Xiongnu (HUN) confederations.
> (http://www.republic anchina.org/ Turks.html)
> "Ashina -- the Royal clan of the Blue Turks (and possibly earlier
> the Huns) and later of the Khazars..."/ Norman J. Finkelshteyn/
> â€žâ€¦the second stage began in the middle of the 5th century
> when "500 FAMILIES" OF THE ASHINA CLAN headed by Asyanshud were
> moved by the Rurans from Gaochang to the southern part of the
> Altai. Here the migrants joined the ranks of the Turk tribal
> unit.â€œ S.P.Nesterov, The Old Turks in Central Asia and Southern
> * Khazar Beks - The Beks were warlords, military commanders who
> exercised considerable day-to-day authority, and were sometimes
> regarded by outsiders as the supreme lords of the Khazar Nation
> (http://starnarcosis .net/obsidian/ siberia.html)
> *Although basically Turkic, the Khazar state bore little
> resemblance to the other Turkic empires of central Eurasia. It
> was headed by a secluded supreme ruler of semireligious
> character called a khaganâ€"who wielded little real powerâ€"and
> by tribal chieftains, EACH KNOWN AS A BEG."(Encyclopedia
> * According to The New Standard Jewish Encyclopedia the ruling
> class of the Khazarian Empire - sacred Khagan Bulan and 4000 OF
> HIS NOBLES from ancient "Turkish" shamanism converted to Judaism
> in the 8th century.
> *â€¦ Ashina Qaghans ruled by virtue of heavenly mandated charisma
> (QUT)â€¦ THIS CHARISMA (QUT) RESIDED IN THE ENTIRE ROYAL
> CLANâ€¦(http://au.encarta. msn.com)
> *Assoc.Press; â€ž..Vasilyev said the limited number of Jewish
> religious artifacts such as mezuzahs and Stars of David found at
> other Khazar sites prove that ordinary Khazars preferred
> traditional beliefs such as shamanism, or newly introduced
> religions including Islamâ€¦ Yevgeny Satanovsky, director of the
> Middle Eastern Institute in Moscow, said he thinks the Khazar
> elite chose Judaism out of political expediencyâ€¦â€œ
> * Bey is a Turkish title for "chieftainâ€œâ€¦ many Turkish, other
> Turkic and Persian leaders are titled Bey, Beg, Bek, Bay, Baig or
> Beigh. They are all the same word with the simple meaning of
> "lord".(source; Wikipedia article about BEG title)
> 1. Krupa is the Polish-Russian /Slavic/ form of Turkic ARPA or
> ARPAG, with the same meaning; barley,barley grain, barley fruits
> ,- according â€žJewish Family Names and Their Originsâ€œ,by
> Heinrich Walter Guggenheimer, Eva H., but it is also founded in
> north-west India/Bangladesh (E.Pakistan) , unchanged â€"as Krupa
> 2. Krupa on Sanskrit means â€žcompassionâ€œ (grace) according to
> the â€žApte's Sanskrit -English dictionaryâ€œ
> http://www.indiadiv ine.org/audarya/ shakti-sadhana/ 121148-krupa- prasada-kataxa. html
> 3. Krupa, a Hindu name for a female meaning grace, mercy, favor,
> love, passion, compassion, forgiveness, blessings, and hope
> http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Krupa
> 4. According to the World Surname Locator, Ashina as surname is
> in use in India (and Japan, but that is Japanese Clan).
> Interestingly, not in Central Asia, China or Mongolia, or
> anywhere else in world.
> 5. Form of address for european Duke (lat.Dux), military warlord
> and ruler, considered as equal to Turkic Beg (Bek,Beig etc.), is
> â€žHis Graceâ€œ (Grace, compassion=Krupa) .
> The regions or provinces where Beys (the equivalent of duke in
> Europe) ruled or which they administered were called Beylik,
> roughly meaning "emirate" or "principality" in the first case,
> "province" or "governorate" in the second (the equivalent of
> duchy in Europe).
> Bey or a variation has also been used as an aristocratic title in
> various Turkic states, such as BÃ¤k in the Tatar Khanate of
> Kazan, in charge of a Beylik called BÃ¤klek. The Balkar princes
> in the North Caucasus highlands were known as taubiy (taubey),
> meaning the "mountainous chief". (From Wikipedia, the free
> 6. Tarnawa is the SHIELD (CoA) and the CLAN of Poland
> traditionaly associated /in old Polish-Lithuanian armorials/
> with the Krupa noble family (among other families), and it is
> labeled as a shield of â€žszlachta odwiecznaâ€œ- â€œUradelâ€œ (a
> nobility from ever, self-rooted nobility, ancient nobility,root
> nobility) http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Tarnawa_coat_ of_arms
> 7. The Polish Nobility emerged as a clan (family or tribe) system
> before 1000 A.D. Each clan had its own mark, a tamga, which
> eventually evolved into the symbols found on Polish coats of
> arms. http://www.angelfir e.com/mi4/ polcrt/PolNobili ty.html
> Crown used on Tarnawa CoA (like on other Polish arms) are often
> described , in heraldic terminology, as â€žducalâ€œ.
> 8. The oldest, original latin text of J.Dlugosz speaks about
> Petrus Krupa de Tarnawa family. Krupa de Tarnawa in translation
> from Latin means Krupa of Tarnawa or Krupa from Tarnawa,
> designating Tarnawa as a place/location. Krupa herb Tanawa in
> translation from Polish means just Krupa - Coat of Arms Tarnawa.
> 9. Tarnawa is a name of several places on territory of the
> Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth (Kingdom), mainly in
> Galicia.There is also example in Bulgaria.
> 10. Tarnawa is the city in Northern Pakistan in Hazara region (in
> Karakorum Mtns. region), and the place in Hazarajat (Hazaristan)
> in Afghanistan (in Hindu Kush Mtns.).
> http://wikimapia. org/10055074/ Tarnawa-Dogah- Edited-by- Shahzad-Satti
> http://www.fallingr ain.com/world/ AF/28/Tarnawa. html
> 11.Tarnawa name AS EXACT SPELLING (name of
> places,nickname, personal name, label..etc.) is not recorded
> anywhere else in world, except in northern Pakistan and
> Afghanistan, and in former Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth
> (Eastern Europe), and no â€žotherâ€œ Krupa family â€žemergedâ€œ
> with â€žnobleâ€œancestry claim (very important fact as Krupa in
> exact spelling is oftenly met surname among Roman Catholics,
> Greek-Byzantine Catholics and Jews, troughout Eastern Europe,
> and as name in Indian subcontinent)
> 12. The Indian Kushan Empire ( c. 1stâ€"3rd centuries ) among
> other covered area /earlier Indo-Greek BACTRIA /currently
> inhabited with the Hazara and Sindhi population, only noted
> carrier of the Q1b SNP mutation, beside Ashkenazi Jews of
> Eastern Europe (except in some other individual cases)
> 13. The Indian Kushan Empire covered area of northern
> Afghanistan, the whole Pakistan,northern India, southern
> Uzbekistan and Tajikistan and area of North-West China
> (Xinjiang-Turkestan ) â€" the ultimate home of the Ashina Royal
> Tribe of Turks (â€žoriginal 500 familiesâ€œ)
> We assume that legacy and heritage of the Indian Kushan Empire
> (Yuezhi) is responsible for original association of Krupa
> name/form of address with White Hun-Turkic bloodline, later the
> Krupa family.
> 14. The very same case, as with The Kushan Empire, is with The
> White Hun Empire.
> The Hephthalites or White Huns were a Central Asian nomadic
> confederation whose precise origins and composition remain
> obscure. They were called Sveta Huna ("White Huns") by the
> Indians. According to Chinese chronicles they were originally a
> tribe living to the north of the Great Wall and were known as
> Hoa or Hoa-tun. Elsewhere they were called White Huns. They had
> no cities or system of writing, and lived in felt tents. For
> many years, scholars suggested that they were possibly of Turkic
> stock, and it seems likely that at least some groups amongst the
> Hephthalites were Turkic-speakers.
> Chinese chronicles state that they were originally a tribe of the
> Yuezhi, living to the north of the Great Wall, and subject to the
> Rouran (Jwen-Jwen), as were some Turkic peoples at the time.
> Their original name was Hoa or Hoa-tun; subsequently they named
> themselves Ye-tha-i-li- to, after their royal family, which
> descended from one of the five Yuezhi families which also
> included the Kushan.(From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)
> 15. â€œWith the discovery of haplogroup Q among Ashkenazi Jews,
> DNA researchers may have found the â€œsmoking gunâ€� of
> Khazarian ancestry.â€œ (A MOSAIC OF PEOPLE: THE JEWISH STORY AND
> A REASSESSMENT OF THE DNA EVIDENCE ,Ellen Levy-Coffman)
> 16. "..I agree that it is likely that the presence of haplogroup
> Q among
> Ashkenazic Jews could come from descent from the Khazars". (Kevin
> Brook ,author of The Jews of Khazaria (Second Edition: Rowman &
> Littlefield, 2006) in open respond to D.Howard administrator of
> the Ashkenazi-Q Yahoo group)
> 17. Astrakhan State University (Dmitry Vasilyev) trough
> excavations funded by the Russian-Jewish Congress, proven that
> conversion of Khazars to Judaism was indeed limited only to a
> very narrow circle-ruling imperial class. (The Associated Press
> , â€žScholar Says Ruins Are Medieval Jewish Capitalâ€œ
> Published: September 21, 2008)
> 18. One founded 6-letter Khazar runic word means "I have read
> [it]". It was written on the bottom of the Kievan Letter, a
> document written by the (possibly-Khazar) Jews of Kiev in the
> early 10th century. The signatures on the Kievan Letter are of
> mixed Hebrew (ex: Yitzhak, Sinai, Yehudah) and Turkic/Slavic
> (ex: Manas, Gostata) origins, apparently indicating enviroment
> of rich and diverse linguistic heritage of the Khazarian/Turkic
> society, certainly allowing survival of words â€žKrupaâ€œ (Arpa)
> and â€žTarnawaâ€œ (and 4-equal barr cross as tamga)
> 19. This Krupa family is of Ashkenazi Jewish ancestry (mainly of
> former Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and Russia), as visible in
> lists of 12, 25, 37 and 67 Y-DNA matches, within containing
> significant number of matches with Levit tradition (and some of
> Cohanim tradition). In some other lines-branches of this
> Ashkenazi Q1b family, Levit status has been obviously
> remmembered and preserved, in this particular branch that was
> case with â€žKrupa-Graceâ€œ (â€žlordshipâ€œ) identity.
> The Krupa family Y-DNA has been tested at the FamilyTree
> DNA,Houston- Texas; the pioneer and the world's largest DNA
> testing company in the new field of genetic genealogy. Jewish
> comparative databases in FTDNA are the largest in the world,
> containing records for Ashkenazim and Sephardim, as well as
> Levites and Cohanim.
> 20. â€¦szlachta simply addressed each other by their given name
> or as "Sir Brother" (Panie bracie) or the feminine equivalent.
> The other forms of address would be "Illustrious and Magnificent
> Lord", "Magnificent Lord", "Generous Lord" or "Noble Lord" (in
> decreasing order) or simply "His/Her Grace Lord/Lady XYZ".
> (Wikipedia about Szlachta)
> 21. This Krupa family is carrier of a rare haplogroup Q1b (M378)
> mutation, as subclade of Q (M242) â€žasiaticâ€œ or
> â€žmongolicâ€œ haplogroup
> http://m242. haplogroup. org/?do=search& id=krupa
> 22. Q1b (M378) found in 5% of Ashkenazi Jews and at low frequency
> among samples of Hazara, Sindhis, and nowhere else so far (except
> in some individual cases)-meaning in south-western Central Asia
> ("Sengupta2006" -Sanghamitra Sengupta, Lev A. Zhivotovsky, Roy
> King, S.Q. Mehdi, Christopher A. Edmonds, Cheryl-Emiliane T.
> Chow, Alice A. Lin, Mitashree Mitra, Samir K. Sil, A. Ramesh,
> M.V. Usha Rani, Chitra M. Thakur, L. Luca Cavalli-Sforza, Partha
> P. Majumder, and Peter A. Underhill, "Polarity and Temporality of
> High-Resolution Y-Chromosome Distributions in India Identify Both
> Indigenous and Exogenous Expansions and Reveal Minor Genetic
> Influence of Central Asian Pastoralists, " ''The American Journal
> of Human Genetics'', Volume 78, Issue 2, 202-221, 1 February
> The HazÄ�ra are a Persian-speaking people residing in the central
> region of Afghanistan (referred to as Hazarajat) and northwestern
> Pakistan. The Hazara are predominantly ShÄ«â€˜Ä« Muslims and are
> the third largest ethnic group in Afghanistan, composing ca. 10%
> of the population. Hazaras can also be found in large numbers in
> neighboring Iran and Pakistan, primarily as refugees, and as
> diaspora around the world.
> http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Hazara_people
> The Sindhis are a Sindhi speaking socio-ethnic group of people
> originating from Sindh, a province of Pakistan. Today Sindhis
> that live in Pakistan belong to various religious denominations
> including but not limited to Muslim, Zorastrian, Hindus and
> Christians. After the Partition of India in 1947, a large number
> of Indian Muslim refugees(Muhajirs) flocked into Pakistan and
> settled in the prosperous Sindh region. At the same time Sindhi
> Hindus migrated to India in large numbers.
> From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 23. There is located distant Q1b match from India from the
> Brahman Caste (hereditary Hindu priestly caste, alike Levit
> caste in Hebrews).
> http://m242. haplogroup. org/?do=search& id=krupa
> 24. Q1b matches from Central Asia /most distant known ancestral
> origins from Pakistan,Afghanista n,Uzbekistan etc./ ,visible in
> Q-DNA Project and in the Ashina Royal Dynasty DNA Project,
> clearly shows our Silk Road/Lazurite Route path from
> Afghanistan/ Pakistan, North-West China/South Siberia to Eastern
> Those matches are not so close to us, Ashkenazi Q1b, but still
> relat.gen.close, and not Jews (!), meaning that there was
> religious conversion and that conversion took place at some
> point after our ancestors branched.
> One group remained in Central Asia, others (the Krupa family
> ancestors among them) moved to China (Xinjiang), after that to
> Europe (future Khazaria) via Altai Mountains area (here the
> migrants joined the ranks of the Turk tribal unit) and accepted
> Judaism in, what is today, South Russia. From the Kushan Empire,
> the White Hun Empire, the Xiongnu Empire, the Gok-Turk Empire,
> then trough the Khazarian Empire ,to the old Kingdom of Poland.
> Total Khazar story and 1st millennium story
> 25. Q1b IS FOUND IN EUROPE ALMOST ONLY WITHIN ASHKENAZI GENETIC
> POOL, CREATING SPECIFIC ASHKENAZI Q1b HAPLOTYPE, WHICH MEANS
> THAT PRESENCE IN EUROPE IS ALMOST 0% (DISTRIBUTION OF HAPLOGROUP
> Q WITH ALL KNOWN SUBCLADES IN EUROPE IS 0.61%)
> There is a complete, exact and full match of the surname, the
> noble clan/shield name, the town and places names, legal basis
> for nobilitation, ancestral geographical locations and locations
> of restricted distribution of specific and rare Y-DNA
> (haplogroup) plus confirming TMRCA* calculations; -in places
> where we see Q1b's examples we find both names Krupa and
> Tarnawa, as well we have several options for possible origins of
> heraldic Tarnawa, including number of old Runic and Indian
> scriptures (Brahmi,Kharoshti etc.) and original meaning of word
> Krupa (applicable to the Krupa family in question) ,all in the
> very same places.
> Suggested origin;
> Yuezhi Royal families of Turkic stock ruled over Indian Kushan
> Empire and Turkic White Hun Empire (Hepthalites) , remnants
> later joined Ashina Royal Tribe as part of the Xiongnu (Hun)
> confederation, and after that of the Gok--Turks (Celestial
> Turks) and consequently of Khazars in southeastern Europe.
> â€žTarnawaâ€œ seal was possibly just one of the seals of this
> blood line, with origin in triangle of
> Hindukush-Pamir- Karakoram, but with very beginning within
> ancient Sumerian civilisation (this type of cross is symbol of
> "Nibiru" planet in Sumer. Mythology).
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