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856RE: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Origin

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  • christopher baysinger
    Oct 2 12:13 AM

      Hadassah was queen of the sindh long before anyone ever hear of a Khazer!!!

      Christopher D. Baysinger, cdbaysinger@...

      Dance like no one is watching. Sing like no one is listening. Love like you've never been hurt and live like it's heaven on Earth.

           Mark Twain

      A man can be free without being great, but no man can be great without being free.

           Kahlil Gibran

      To: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com
      From: adam_bratter@...
      Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 03:18:12 +0000
      Subject: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Origin

      Dear Alfred and fellow board members

      We have spoken previously, I am in your project and you have classified me as #18 under Ashina-Bek my kit is 140975.

      On Jewish_Q -- YDNA Haplogroup Q1b of European Descent I am number #97 unassigned.

      On yDNA Haplogroup Q Project I am #168 under Q-M378.

      Still unsure of what my fathers ancestry is due to all of the discussion on the board. Just curious if any conclusion was reached?

      Seems we are all related! So I should see you all as cousins :)

      One thing me and my father have decided is that our paternal ancestry probably does not go back to the middle east as the Y Haplogroup Q started in Siberia - so years of thinking we were Jews in terms of having origins back to the ancient state of Israel is false.


      --- In Ashkenazi-Q@ yahoogroups. com, KRUPA <mladen.krupa@ ...> wrote:
      > Dear Adam,
      > As You know that beside Rebekah's and Dave's Y-DNA Project, there
      > is 3rd one-Ashina.
      > I am the administrator.
      > Before some time I have placed my research (for my family) in
      > this forum. Below You will find (and all others) updated
      > material. It is under constant change. It has been focused on my
      > family informations, scientific and non-scientific (oral
      > traditions, personal contacts etc.). Full material is above 100
      > pages now.
      > Regards,
      > Alfred Krupa prof.MFA
      > Croatia
      > Royal A-SHINA(S) (ANSA) tribe of The Huns (XIONGNU), Western
      > Celestial Turks (ONOQ) and (K)HAZARS
      > ×™×"ו×"×™ ×�שכנז Yehudei Ashkenaz (Ashkenazi Q1b Y-DNA
      > “fingerprint�)
      > Compilation of noteworthy facts and clues with references;
      > „Just as later nomadic empires were confederations of many
      > peoples, we may tentatively propose that the ruling groups of
      > these invaders were, or at least included, Turkic-speaking
      > tribesman from the east and north. Although most probably the
      > bulk of the people in the confederation of Chionites and then
      > Hephtalites spoke an Iranian language and this was the last time
      > in the history of Central Asia that Iranian-speaking nomads
      > played any role; hereafter all nomads would speak Turkic
      > languages.“ Richard Nelson Frye
      > „The Khazars originated from the distant East, from the border
      > areas of China. In the seventh century, they were swept by the
      > Great Migrations to the mouth of the River Volga and the shores
      > of the Caspian Sea“ György Balázs, The Magyars. Budapest:
      > Corvina, 1989
      > Between the years 265 and 460 the Ashina had been part of various
      > late Xiongnu (HUN) confederations.
      > (http://www.republic anchina.org/ Turks.html)
      > "Ashina -- the Royal clan of the Blue Turks (and possibly earlier
      > the Huns) and later of the Khazars..."/ Norman J. Finkelshteyn/
      > „…the second stage began in the middle of the 5th century
      > when "500 FAMILIES" OF THE ASHINA CLAN headed by Asyanshud were
      > moved by the Rurans from Gaochang to the southern part of the
      > Altai. Here the migrants joined the ranks of the Turk tribal
      > unit.“ S.P.Nesterov, The Old Turks in Central Asia and Southern
      > Siberia
      > * Khazar Beks - The Beks were warlords, military commanders who
      > exercised considerable day-to-day authority, and were sometimes
      > regarded by outsiders as the supreme lords of the Khazar Nation
      > (http://starnarcosis .net/obsidian/ siberia.html)
      > *Although basically Turkic, the Khazar state bore little
      > resemblance to the other Turkic empires of central Eurasia. It
      > was headed by a secluded supreme ruler of semireligious
      > character called a khaganâ€"who wielded little real powerâ€"and
      > by tribal chieftains, EACH KNOWN AS A BEG."(Encyclopedia
      > Britannica)
      > * According to The New Standard Jewish Encyclopedia the ruling
      > class of the Khazarian Empire - sacred Khagan Bulan and 4000 OF
      > HIS NOBLES from ancient "Turkish" shamanism converted to Judaism
      > in the 8th century.
      > *… Ashina Qaghans ruled by virtue of heavenly mandated charisma
      > CLAN…(http://au.encarta. msn.com)
      > *Assoc.Press; „..Vasilyev said the limited number of Jewish
      > religious artifacts such as mezuzahs and Stars of David found at
      > other Khazar sites prove that ordinary Khazars preferred
      > traditional beliefs such as shamanism, or newly introduced
      > religions including Islam… Yevgeny Satanovsky, director of the
      > Middle Eastern Institute in Moscow, said he thinks the Khazar
      > elite chose Judaism out of political expediency…“
      > * Bey is a Turkish title for "chieftain“… many Turkish, other
      > Turkic and Persian leaders are titled Bey, Beg, Bek, Bay, Baig or
      > Beigh. They are all the same word with the simple meaning of
      > "lord".(source; Wikipedia article about BEG title)
      > 1. Krupa is the Polish-Russian /Slavic/ form of Turkic ARPA or
      > ARPAG, with the same meaning; barley,barley grain, barley fruits
      > ,- according „Jewish Family Names and Their Origins“,by
      > Heinrich Walter Guggenheimer, Eva H., but it is also founded in
      > north-west India/Bangladesh (E.Pakistan) , unchanged â€"as Krupa
      > .
      > 2. Krupa on Sanskrit means „compassion“ (grace) according to
      > the „Apte's Sanskrit -English dictionary“
      > http://www.indiadiv ine.org/audarya/ shakti-sadhana/ 121148-krupa- prasada-kataxa. html
      > 3. Krupa, a Hindu name for a female meaning grace, mercy, favor,
      > love, passion, compassion, forgiveness, blessings, and hope
      > http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Krupa
      > 4. According to the World Surname Locator, Ashina as surname is
      > in use in India (and Japan, but that is Japanese Clan).
      > Interestingly, not in Central Asia, China or Mongolia, or
      > anywhere else in world.
      > 5. Form of address for european Duke (lat.Dux), military warlord
      > and ruler, considered as equal to Turkic Beg (Bek,Beig etc.), is
      > „His Grace“ (Grace, compassion=Krupa) .
      > The regions or provinces where Beys (the equivalent of duke in
      > Europe) ruled or which they administered were called Beylik,
      > roughly meaning "emirate" or "principality" in the first case,
      > "province" or "governorate" in the second (the equivalent of
      > duchy in Europe).
      > Bey or a variation has also been used as an aristocratic title in
      > various Turkic states, such as Bäk in the Tatar Khanate of
      > Kazan, in charge of a Beylik called Bäklek. The Balkar princes
      > in the North Caucasus highlands were known as taubiy (taubey),
      > meaning the "mountainous chief". (From Wikipedia, the free
      > encyclopedia)
      > 6. Tarnawa is the SHIELD (CoA) and the CLAN of Poland
      > traditionaly associated /in old Polish-Lithuanian armorials/
      > with the Krupa noble family (among other families), and it is
      > labeled as a shield of „szlachta odwieczna“- “Uradel“ (a
      > nobility from ever, self-rooted nobility, ancient nobility,root
      > nobility) http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Tarnawa_coat_ of_arms
      > 7. The Polish Nobility emerged as a clan (family or tribe) system
      > before 1000 A.D. Each clan had its own mark, a tamga, which
      > eventually evolved into the symbols found on Polish coats of
      > arms. http://www.angelfir e.com/mi4/ polcrt/PolNobili ty.html
      > Crown used on Tarnawa CoA (like on other Polish arms) are often
      > described , in heraldic terminology, as „ducal“.
      > 8. The oldest, original latin text of J.Dlugosz speaks about
      > Petrus Krupa de Tarnawa family. Krupa de Tarnawa in translation
      > from Latin means Krupa of Tarnawa or Krupa from Tarnawa,
      > designating Tarnawa as a place/location. Krupa herb Tanawa in
      > translation from Polish means just Krupa - Coat of Arms Tarnawa.
      > 9. Tarnawa is a name of several places on territory of the
      > Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth (Kingdom), mainly in
      > Galicia.There is also example in Bulgaria.
      > 10. Tarnawa is the city in Northern Pakistan in Hazara region (in
      > Karakorum Mtns. region), and the place in Hazarajat (Hazaristan)
      > in Afghanistan (in Hindu Kush Mtns.).
      > http://wikimapia. org/10055074/ Tarnawa-Dogah- Edited-by- Shahzad-Satti
      > http://www.fallingr ain.com/world/ AF/28/Tarnawa. html
      > 11.Tarnawa name AS EXACT SPELLING (name of
      > places,nickname, personal name, label..etc.) is not recorded
      > anywhere else in world, except in northern Pakistan and
      > Afghanistan, and in former Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth
      > (Eastern Europe), and no „other“ Krupa family „emerged“
      > with „noble“ancestry claim (very important fact as Krupa in
      > exact spelling is oftenly met surname among Roman Catholics,
      > Greek-Byzantine Catholics and Jews, troughout Eastern Europe,
      > and as name in Indian subcontinent)
      > 12. The Indian Kushan Empire ( c. 1stâ€"3rd centuries ) among
      > other covered area /earlier Indo-Greek BACTRIA /currently
      > inhabited with the Hazara and Sindhi population, only noted
      > carrier of the Q1b SNP mutation, beside Ashkenazi Jews of
      > Eastern Europe (except in some other individual cases)
      > 13. The Indian Kushan Empire covered area of northern
      > Afghanistan, the whole Pakistan,northern India, southern
      > Uzbekistan and Tajikistan and area of North-West China
      > (Xinjiang-Turkestan ) â€" the ultimate home of the Ashina Royal
      > Tribe of Turks („original 500 families“)
      > We assume that legacy and heritage of the Indian Kushan Empire
      > (Yuezhi) is responsible for original association of Krupa
      > name/form of address with White Hun-Turkic bloodline, later the
      > Krupa family.
      > 14. The very same case, as with The Kushan Empire, is with The
      > White Hun Empire.
      > The Hephthalites or White Huns were a Central Asian nomadic
      > confederation whose precise origins and composition remain
      > obscure. They were called Sveta Huna ("White Huns") by the
      > Indians. According to Chinese chronicles they were originally a
      > tribe living to the north of the Great Wall and were known as
      > Hoa or Hoa-tun. Elsewhere they were called White Huns. They had
      > no cities or system of writing, and lived in felt tents. For
      > many years, scholars suggested that they were possibly of Turkic
      > stock, and it seems likely that at least some groups amongst the
      > Hephthalites were Turkic-speakers.
      > Chinese chronicles state that they were originally a tribe of the
      > Yuezhi, living to the north of the Great Wall, and subject to the
      > Rouran (Jwen-Jwen), as were some Turkic peoples at the time.
      > Their original name was Hoa or Hoa-tun; subsequently they named
      > themselves Ye-tha-i-li- to, after their royal family, which
      > descended from one of the five Yuezhi families which also
      > included the Kushan.(From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)
      > 15. “With the discovery of haplogroup Q among Ashkenazi Jews,
      > DNA researchers may have found the “smoking gun� of
      > Khazarian ancestry.“ (A MOSAIC OF PEOPLE: THE JEWISH STORY AND
      > 16. "..I agree that it is likely that the presence of haplogroup
      > Q among
      > Ashkenazic Jews could come from descent from the Khazars". (Kevin
      > Brook ,author of The Jews of Khazaria (Second Edition: Rowman &
      > Littlefield, 2006) in open respond to D.Howard administrator of
      > the Ashkenazi-Q Yahoo group)
      > 17. Astrakhan State University (Dmitry Vasilyev) trough
      > excavations funded by the Russian-Jewish Congress, proven that
      > conversion of Khazars to Judaism was indeed limited only to a
      > very narrow circle-ruling imperial class. (The Associated Press
      > , „Scholar Says Ruins Are Medieval Jewish Capital“
      > Published: September 21, 2008)
      > 18. One founded 6-letter Khazar runic word means "I have read
      > [it]". It was written on the bottom of the Kievan Letter, a
      > document written by the (possibly-Khazar) Jews of Kiev in the
      > early 10th century. The signatures on the Kievan Letter are of
      > mixed Hebrew (ex: Yitzhak, Sinai, Yehudah) and Turkic/Slavic
      > (ex: Manas, Gostata) origins, apparently indicating enviroment
      > of rich and diverse linguistic heritage of the Khazarian/Turkic
      > society, certainly allowing survival of words „Krupa“ (Arpa)
      > and „Tarnawa“ (and 4-equal barr cross as tamga)
      > 19. This Krupa family is of Ashkenazi Jewish ancestry (mainly of
      > former Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and Russia), as visible in
      > lists of 12, 25, 37 and 67 Y-DNA matches, within containing
      > significant number of matches with Levit tradition (and some of
      > Cohanim tradition). In some other lines-branches of this
      > Ashkenazi Q1b family, Levit status has been obviously
      > remmembered and preserved, in this particular branch that was
      > case with „Krupa-Grace“ („lordship“) identity.
      > The Krupa family Y-DNA has been tested at the FamilyTree
      > DNA,Houston- Texas; the pioneer and the world's largest DNA
      > testing company in the new field of genetic genealogy. Jewish
      > comparative databases in FTDNA are the largest in the world,
      > containing records for Ashkenazim and Sephardim, as well as
      > Levites and Cohanim.
      > 20. …szlachta simply addressed each other by their given name
      > or as "Sir Brother" (Panie bracie) or the feminine equivalent.
      > The other forms of address would be "Illustrious and Magnificent
      > Lord", "Magnificent Lord", "Generous Lord" or "Noble Lord" (in
      > decreasing order) or simply "His/Her Grace Lord/Lady XYZ".
      > (Wikipedia about Szlachta)
      > 21. This Krupa family is carrier of a rare haplogroup Q1b (M378)
      > mutation, as subclade of Q (M242) „asiatic“ or
      > „mongolic“ haplogroup
      > http://m242. haplogroup. org/?do=search& id=krupa
      > 22. Q1b (M378) found in 5% of Ashkenazi Jews and at low frequency
      > among samples of Hazara, Sindhis, and nowhere else so far (except
      > in some individual cases)-meaning in south-western Central Asia
      > ("Sengupta2006" -Sanghamitra Sengupta, Lev A. Zhivotovsky, Roy
      > King, S.Q. Mehdi, Christopher A. Edmonds, Cheryl-Emiliane T.
      > Chow, Alice A. Lin, Mitashree Mitra, Samir K. Sil, A. Ramesh,
      > M.V. Usha Rani, Chitra M. Thakur, L. Luca Cavalli-Sforza, Partha
      > P. Majumder, and Peter A. Underhill, "Polarity and Temporality of
      > High-Resolution Y-Chromosome Distributions in India Identify Both
      > Indigenous and Exogenous Expansions and Reveal Minor Genetic
      > Influence of Central Asian Pastoralists, " ''The American Journal
      > of Human Genetics'', Volume 78, Issue 2, 202-221, 1 February
      > 2006.)
      > The Haz�ra are a Persian-speaking people residing in the central
      > region of Afghanistan (referred to as Hazarajat) and northwestern
      > Pakistan. The Hazara are predominantly Shī‘ī Muslims and are
      > the third largest ethnic group in Afghanistan, composing ca. 10%
      > of the population. Hazaras can also be found in large numbers in
      > neighboring Iran and Pakistan, primarily as refugees, and as
      > diaspora around the world.
      > http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Hazara_people
      > The Sindhis are a Sindhi speaking socio-ethnic group of people
      > originating from Sindh, a province of Pakistan. Today Sindhis
      > that live in Pakistan belong to various religious denominations
      > including but not limited to Muslim, Zorastrian, Hindus and
      > Christians. After the Partition of India in 1947, a large number
      > of Indian Muslim refugees(Muhajirs) flocked into Pakistan and
      > settled in the prosperous Sindh region. At the same time Sindhi
      > Hindus migrated to India in large numbers.
      > From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
      > 23. There is located distant Q1b match from India from the
      > Brahman Caste (hereditary Hindu priestly caste, alike Levit
      > caste in Hebrews).
      > http://m242. haplogroup. org/?do=search& id=krupa
      > 24. Q1b matches from Central Asia /most distant known ancestral
      > origins from Pakistan,Afghanista n,Uzbekistan etc./ ,visible in
      > Q-DNA Project and in the Ashina Royal Dynasty DNA Project,
      > clearly shows our Silk Road/Lazurite Route path from
      > Afghanistan/ Pakistan, North-West China/South Siberia to Eastern
      > Europe.
      > Those matches are not so close to us, Ashkenazi Q1b, but still
      > relat.gen.close, and not Jews (!), meaning that there was
      > religious conversion and that conversion took place at some
      > point after our ancestors branched.
      > One group remained in Central Asia, others (the Krupa family
      > ancestors among them) moved to China (Xinjiang), after that to
      > Europe (future Khazaria) via Altai Mountains area (here the
      > migrants joined the ranks of the Turk tribal unit) and accepted
      > Judaism in, what is today, South Russia. From the Kushan Empire,
      > the White Hun Empire, the Xiongnu Empire, the Gok-Turk Empire,
      > then trough the Khazarian Empire ,to the old Kingdom of Poland.
      > Total Khazar story and 1st millennium story
      > Conclusion;
      > There is a complete, exact and full match of the surname, the
      > noble clan/shield name, the town and places names, legal basis
      > for nobilitation, ancestral geographical locations and locations
      > of restricted distribution of specific and rare Y-DNA
      > (haplogroup) plus confirming TMRCA* calculations; -in places
      > where we see Q1b's examples we find both names Krupa and
      > Tarnawa, as well we have several options for possible origins of
      > heraldic Tarnawa, including number of old Runic and Indian
      > scriptures (Brahmi,Kharoshti etc.) and original meaning of word
      > Krupa (applicable to the Krupa family in question) ,all in the
      > very same places.
      > Suggested origin;
      > Yuezhi Royal families of Turkic stock ruled over Indian Kushan
      > Empire and Turkic White Hun Empire (Hepthalites) , remnants
      > later joined Ashina Royal Tribe as part of the Xiongnu (Hun)
      > confederation, and after that of the Gok--Turks (Celestial
      > Turks) and consequently of Khazars in southeastern Europe.
      > „Tarnawa“ seal was possibly just one of the seals of this
      > blood line, with origin in triangle of
      > Hindukush-Pamir- Karakoram, but with very beginning within
      > ancient Sumerian civilisation (this type of cross is symbol of
      > "Nibiru" planet in Sumer. Mythology).
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