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Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: 67 Marker Matches

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  • Cdbaysinger
    Jul 10, 2013 Expand Messages
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      You are not a nerd

      Sent from my iPad

      On Jul 9, 2013, at 10:17 PM, "aol2808" <aol2808@...> wrote:

       

      Nadene so you mean the Q Y DNA Project on Facebook? I am the last nerd on the planet who is not on Facebook! Though my friends keep begging me to join, I keep refusing to go to the dark side......LOL!

      Try not to stay up too late watching the trial on CNN. I for once have not let myself get wrapped up in it. Maybe tomorrow I will tune in and see if they reach a decision.

      Amy

      --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, "NADENE GOLDFOOT" <goldfoot1@...> wrote:
      >
      > Amy, I also belong to the Q Y DNA Haplogroup Project run by Rebekah Canada. https://www.facebook.com/groups/27756520936/permalink/10151730986720937/ It's a closed group so you have to get her permission to belong, and being you are like me, working with a Q relative, you should belong.
      >
      > One of the websites I found tonight had it posted. I'm trying to find it now about #385. We've been talking about his conundrum of our Q1b1a origins with Rebekah. Oh, I found out that there weren't any rapes going on with the Tartars. I'm going to post the information on my blog as a comment. Very interesting. So there goes that theory. Our common femal ancestor remains chaste.
      >
      > Finally CNN Pierce just said what I've been saying. Have George replay that screaming episode in the same place and tape it, then compare it with thier phone scream. Ha! I've been following the Treyvon and George Zimmerman murder case. Tomorrow may be the end.
      >
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: aol2808
      > To: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2013 8:07 PM
      > Subject: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: 67 Marker Matches
      >
      >
      >
      > Lol my head is spinning too Nadene! But seriously I just finished reading your Pale of Settlement article, and thank you again for all the information. That is helpful to know.
      >
      > Maybe I can tie it in with my great grandfather's immigration records when I can find it. I know the year is approx 1909. I had gone to the courthouse to look for it a few months ago.
      >
      > From there I learned I would have to find it in the Federal Courthouse, which isn't too far from me, but other obligations keep me from getting there to look. I refuse to order it, I want to go in the building and find it myself.
      >
      > Where did you find that our allele #385=14, and this means our origins are from Iran and Iraq? Anything that I can read up on with this that discusses which alles numbers, or SNPs, or STRs help distinguish Qs into clusters and such would be great.
      >
      > Also do you know, or anyone else out there that might be reading along. Is there any Qs that have done the Geno 2.0 test? I know there is a fellow on the FTDNA forum who just discovered he is a Q-M3 which = Native American. He was quite surprised as his grandfather only came to America in 1900, and was a Basque that lived in an isolated village. I sent him a post to encourage him to join the Y-DNA Q Project.
      >
      > Many Thanks,
      > Amy
      >
      > --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, "NADENE GOLDFOOT" <goldfoot1@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Now read the one about the Pale of Settlement which I sent. More to learn there as well. I learned a lot myself. I had myself convinced this is how we got our Q1b1a. I can't find Rebekah's reference to Tartar princes and wound up finding another website on Q1b1a which says that our allele #385=14 which it does and this means that our origins were form Iran and Iraq which is lovely. I've thought so before. Iran was Persia and the home of many Jews from the Babylonian exile and that's the Queen Esther story. Iraq is the home of the city of Ur where Abraham came from. Though he was (I think) a J1, as his descendants (Jacob's 12 sons) should have been J1-the Cohen gene-the Q's were in the group anyway. It's hard to find Q's.
      > >
      > > So here's another theory. As Jews from the Babylonian exile, we wound up in Poland and our female common ancestor of 1,000 years ago was raped by the Tartars. Of course her son would be Jewish as that's the law. He is the ancestor of all our Ydna of Q1b1a. Now I think I have all bases covered-except that Rebekah's Tartar prince tests were Q-L 275 and not Q-L245 which we are. So-somehow we both came off a major branch of Q's. Maybe our rapist was of the L245. Tartars were a mixture of Mongols and Turkic people. My head is spinning.
      > > Nadene
      > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > From: aol2808
      > > To: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com
      > > Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2013 6:45 PM
      > > Subject: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: 67 Marker Matches
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Nadene, Wow! Thank you so much! I learned quite a bit as well. :-) I appreciate it much. That was very thoughtful of you to take the time to write this.
      > > Amy
      > >
      > > --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, "NADENE GOLDFOOT" <goldfoot1@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Amy, here is the post.
      > > > http://jewishbubba.blogspot.com/2013/07/jewish-history-in-slovakia.html I learned a lot about it myself. This is quite a history. Hope it helps you.
      > > >
      > > > Nadene Goldfoot
      > > >
      > > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > > From: aol2808
      > > > To: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com
      > > > Sent: Sunday, July 07, 2013 10:12 PM
      > > > Subject: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: 67 Marker Matches
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Nadene,
      > > > You are welcome. Thank you again for the exchange of ideas. :-) There is not many of us European Qs out there to brainstorm with! I do frequent the FTDNA forum, and they are a great bunch there. Just not many Qs. Maybe the occasional NA or the other rare European Q1a type.
      > > >
      > > > Yes I have been on the jewishgen site, and still try to use it. That would be interesting to learn about more the Jewish people in Slovakia. I will keep my eye out for that if you decide to post it.
      > > >
      > > > And yes, I would like to think that our Qs got together in Lithuania somehow!
      > > >
      > > > Have a good night.
      > > > Amy
      > > >
      > > > --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, "NADENE GOLDFOOT" <goldfoot1@> wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > Amy,
      > > > > I'm so glad to see you are really working on our history! That is great. I tend to go along with the Babylonian Exile, because then that can take us to Persia where Queen Esther was and the whole Purim story. Going back, it would have taken us to Israel and Judah, as well. Like my line. With our German name of Goldfus, I know we had to go to Germany first before eastern Europe. Besides that, I have DNA matches that are German and not Jewish and they're probably scratching their heads trying to figure out how they can be related to me. Anyway, we don't have an eastern Europe ending to our name, either, so had the surname before going there.
      > > > >
      > > > > One of our Q's said he has relatives that look very Mongolian. The Mongolian Horde could have intermarried along the way.
      > > > > Slovakia is listed on Jewishgen. Did I ask before if you have been using it? http://jewishgen.org ? However, Slovakia is not listed as being part of the Pale of Settlement where Russia's Catherine II had all Jews live. They couldn't get into the Russian motherland without special permission or a special pass for a good reason. That consisted of Poland, LIthuania, Ukraine, Belarus and Latvia. I don't know much about Slovakia and Jews at all. That should be the focus for another post of mine, as I've written about most all the other countries.
      > > > >
      > > > > Yes, we lost a lot of our Jewish people through many reasons. The big one was like the Spanish Inquisition of 1492; through forced conversions. There was pressure all along the way from our origins. Some happened a long time ago and some far more recent.
      > > > >
      > > > > Thanks for sending this information. Being we both have our Q's in LIthuania, they had to get together somehow. This is interesting.
      > > > > Nadene
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > > > From: aol2808
      > > > > To: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com
      > > > > Sent: Sunday, July 07, 2013 11:12 AM
      > > > > Subject: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: 67 Marker Matches
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Hi Nadene,
      > > > >
      > > > > Here is how all records that I have for my direct paternal side are listed.
      > > > >
      > > > > 1930 U.S. Census-spelling of the last name is Krakoski, place of birth for both of my great grandparents is Poland.
      > > > >
      > > > > 1934 Marriage License in the U.S. for my paternal grandfather, spelling of the last name is Krakoski. Both of his parents are listed as being born in Lithuania, and this is where I found his mother's maiden name was Mutyar.
      > > > >
      > > > > 1940 U.S. Census-spelling of the last name is Krakauskas,(note the Lithuanian spelling), but it still states that my great grandparents had been born in Poland. My father is even on this one with the Lithuanian spelling for our last name.
      > > > >
      > > > > 1946 U.S. Marriage License for my paternal grandfather's brother. Last name is spelled Krakoski, and both of my great grandparents are listed as Slovakia for their places of birth. Which I find very curious as they have been in the States for a number of years now and switch up places of birth between either Lithuania or Poland. Never Slovakia. The oral history is we are Lithuanian,Polish, and that the Mongolians are part of our ancestry. No mention ever of Slovakia. My great grandmother's maiden name on this document also changes from Mutyar to Miscavage. Which to me Miscavage is definitely an "Americanized" surname.
      > > > >
      > > > > Yes as you said if Q is found in Eastern Europe you are probably Jewish. :-) Though I have no oral history of this whatsoever and my father and grandfather instead said we had Mongolian ancestry too I find most puzzling. And my father had respect for the Jewish people. It does appear that the Q's in Eastern Europe are Jewish, but yes where is that time machine to see how we got in there! It is a Central Asian/Siberian marker.
      > > > >
      > > > > I myself do not think all Jewish people descended from the Khazar. I do think it is possible that some may have as Amy Silver indicated in another post. And yes people will twist theory for political reasons which is sad.
      > > > >
      > > > > I had come across this on the internet and had pondered if this is how our Q's could have come into Eastern Europe somehow. http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/237647/Golden-Horde
      > > > >
      > > > > It sparked my attention about the Horde's ill defined borders and also mention of their Iranian territories of the Il-Khans. For sure there had been some Q carrying Horde fellows and it would have only taken a brother or two to introduce in our brand of Q1b. Of course I really don't know for sure but it has been something that I have been wondering if it could have happened that way. And then I had seen this http://kehilalinks.jewishgen.org/lyakhovichi/churchrecords.htm
      > > > > Scroll down to records of the Moslem Community. That made me wonder as well. Now I have read that Lipka Tatars the ones that they have tested, and in my humble opinion does not appear to be a large group, they are R1a, and I think a J though I don't remember if it is a J1 or J2 type off the top of my head. I did see there are other Tatars in other projects that are Qs, though I don't think Q1b1a, but some Q1b types. It would have only taken one or two of these Q1b1a fellows to convert and maybe that could be how?
      > > > >
      > > > > I think the Hazara who some who are Q1b also have the oral history of being descendants of the Horde. And yes there are all sorts of ways to think up how we came to be. Fun isn't it! The administrator of the Polish Project who is awesome, had also thought perhaps that Q entered the Jewish population during the Babylonian Exile.
      > > > >
      > > > > Once again, this was just brainstorming on this with Golden Horde/Tatar. I have the point of view of being told we are Lithuanian+Polish+Mongolian for this branch of my family. Not being told Lithuanian+Polish+Jewish. And clearly this line if it had been Jewish, they had become Christian by the time they came to the U.S.A. as my great grandparents have a cross on their headstone. The last name with a Lithuanian spelling of Krakaukas on the tombstone.
      > > > >
      > > > > I also notice that my last name doesn't have the -oWski ending it is -oski. Also the Lithuania spelling on the tombstone is -aukas, and not -auSkas. I have always wondered if those little nuances mattered for anything?
      > > > >
      > > > > Thanks for the exchange of ideas. :-)
      > > > >
      > > > > Best Regards,
      > > > > Amy
      > > > >
      > > > > --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, "NADENE GOLDFOOT" <goldfoot1@> wrote:
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Hi Amy,
      > > > > > My dictionary says that Slovak is one of a Slavic people of eastern Czechoslovakia; a member of this people; the Slavic language of the Slovak people. Maybe the immigration officials used the word as a term they knew for eastern European people, or that your ancestors only knew this referred to eastern European peopl.e I haven't seen it used with Jewish immigrants on census forms. They usually designate Jewishness with "Hebrew" or "Jewish" or "Yiddish," which was very popular, as that's what they spoke.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > If Q is found in eastern Europe, I'd say the origins were from Jews, especially being my grandfather was one! Ha! Yes, that's my big goal, how we got into the Jewish population and became this line of Q1b1a's. I have a few theories. It has been found around Iraq somewhere, can't remember exactly. Ur was in what today is Iraq, and that's where Abraham lived and left. I'm wondering, since Abraham was evidently according to today's dna finds, a J1, so maybe part of his servants were Q's, and could have intermarried into his family then, or later on in Egypt when they were all slaves. A female Q (I know, like me, with males of the family as Q's) and then her father or brothers would remain Q's and still be in the multitude that left with Moses as part of the family making up the 600,000. Now, our ancestor was probably what, from 800 years ago and we are only 5% of the Jewish population. That means that with even the Ho locau st , we were about 5% then as we are today. I think that the R1a's that are thought to be from Khazaria, are about 7%. We're a small group, with I's even smaller, I believe and of course about 40% or better are J1's of the Cohen gene. There are also G's and E's and that's about it. The 12 tribes of Jacob should have been the J1's, and other J's that have mutated a little. There are Muslims today from Iraq with the same J1 line plus some extra SNP's or whatever showing it is definitely an Arab branch. It's fantastic what dna is showing us, except that they haven't come up with solving our puzzle of Q1b1a's. Wish I had a time machine.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > What I don't agree with is a theory a young molecular biology PhD from Israel is trying to prove with his theory that ALL Ashkenazi Jews came from Khazaria. The Khazarian Empire existed in the southern part of Russia and was a haven for Jews being persecuted. Only the Royal House converted to Judaism at the lead of the Kagan, and he did it also for political and safety reasons, quite possibly besides having an epithany of religion changing over from paganism. He listened to 3 speakers, Jewish, Christian and Islam and chose Judaism. Khazaria was on the Silk Road and it was a wise move on his part at that time, but later Russia overcame them. The molecular biologist (can't remember his name) is not the kind of scientist that is a population geneticist is, and this theory is falling into the hands of others trying to say that Jews do not belong to the Middle East and have no business establishing Israel as first written by Arthur Koestler in "T he 13 th Tr ib e." It's a political theory that is very dangerous. I keep trying to disprove his theory with articles I have written about who Ashkenazi Jews are and where they came from.
      > > > > > Nadene Goldfoot
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > > > > From: aol2808
      > > > > > To: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com
      > > > > > Sent: Saturday, July 06, 2013 8:11 PM
      > > > > > Subject: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: 67 Marker Matches
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Hi Nadene,
      > > > > > That is awful what happened to your grandmother. When I hear stories about pogroms they make me sick to my stomach. Such terrible things.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > In regard to the document that said my great grandparents where born in Slovakia, I'm not sure what to really think about it. They are the ones who are listed as born in Lithuanian sometimes, and then other times Poland. So very curious. And yes the Mutyar name for my great grandmother sounds Hungarian to me as well. Thanks for the breakdown of your last name, and how it can get switched up.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Interesting enough I have read that haplogroup Q is found in higher numbers in Slovakia, not really high but high for Q! My brother has a match on YHRD to someone from Slovakia so maybe could be a piece to the puzzle?
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Hopefully we start learning more about how Q entered into the Jewish population. All the research out there seems to over 3 years old.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Amy
      > > > > >
      > > > > > --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, "NADENE GOLDFOOT" <goldfoot1@> wrote:
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Hi Amy,
      > > > > > > No, my father was short. His mother was very very short. She was something like 4'6" and had had both legs broken in a pogrom in Poland/Lithuania, wherever where Lazdijai, Suwalki happened to be. I think it was Poland but she said she was a Litvak. However, his father was very tall, and she said she had to stand on a chair to kiss him. Ha!
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > That is something to have ancestors from Slovakia. I haven't run into that.
      > > > > > > The movie, Exodus, is great. You can get it through amazon.com. Also, the book, which came first, is a great read.
      > > > > > > It could have been R1a that the Hungarian Jews are tracing back to Khazaria. I know it wasn't the Q1b group.
      > > > > > > You'll know more when you upgrade your brother's test. I'm in the same position. I am handling my brother's test, my son's test, my maternal male cousin's test, my paternal female cousin's test, and occasionally a friend or two that I've talked into testing.
      > > > > > > Goldfus isn't Lithuanian, either. Goldfuss is German and Goldfus is Yiddish (combination of German and Hebrew). Areas of land exhanged hands as far as what dictator/king was in power as much as the people moved around, it looks like. Mutyar sounds more Hungarian to me with the -yar ending.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Well, Q1b1a's are a Jewish group that are only 5% of the Jewish population, so it's a mystery to me as to where we come from when we broke off the main branch as a Jewish group.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Happy 4th of July!
      > > > > > > Nadene Goldfoot
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > > > > > From: aol2808
      > > > > > > To: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com
      > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2013 8:42 PM
      > > > > > > Subject: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: 67 Marker Matches
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Hi Nadene,
      > > > > > > Thanks I will keep looking on Jewishgen. Hopefully I will catch a break there one day! And thank you for the links to your blogs. My paternal grandparents marriage record I had only found about a week and a half before my brother's 12 marker results came in. This I found on Family Search. This record finally told me paternal grandfather's mother's maiden name. I knew her first name from the gravestone, but never her maiden name. I was very surprised at her last name. It was Mutyar on that record. She and my paternal great grandfather on this record are both listed as being born in Lithuania, yet the last name Mutyar definitely does not sound Lithuanian to me at all.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > I am a member of the Family Tree DNA Forums, and had some helpful suggestions from the folks over there in regard to the Mutyar name. Another member had even found the record for my paternal grandfather's brother. He was married I think in the mid to late 1940s off the top of my head. Anyway her last name became Miscavage on that record instead of Mutyar. Which when I see that last name or any with the -avage at the end to me it is an "Americanized" surname. But the strange part of this record is now both my paternal great grandparents are listed as being born in Slovakia!! First time I ever heard or saw that one! All these records are in the U.S.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > A very cool coincidence finding my paternal grandparents marriage records was the date of their marriage of April 20, 1934. I received my brother's 12 marker results on April 20th of this year.
      > > > > > > :-)
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Thanks for clarifying about Ian. That is really amazing that you were able to find the common ancestor for your families. What I am also very interested in with Q1b or Q1b1a, is this haplogroup or subclades definitely Jewish? Or meaning are some Jewish, and then some not Jewish in Europe? Yes I too see that the Q itself is the Mongolian part, and I find it interesting that my father and his father would always make reference to this being part of our ancestry. Honestly not to sound weird, but years ago when I heard about DNA testing and all the hype was out there about the Genghis Khan gene I was convinced that if I could have tested my father then we would have been yDNA C. But time passed I never tested my father, he passed away. Then when I became more seriously involved in actual paper trail genealogy about 5 years ago, I started reading up on this DNA business again. I read about all the different mitochondrial haplogroups, and all the differen t Y c hromo some haplo groups, and here is the other weird part. When I read about haplogroup Q, I then changed my mind about my father line being C, and said to myself that we are probably the Q's that went West!
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Well so much for me guessing right, I'm still confused about it. And it is nice that there is a place here to talk to others about it. :-) I don't think there are any European Q's on the FTDNA forums. I saw a forum called Forum Molgen that has a whole section on yDNA Q, but it is all in Russian, I have the google translate on but there is something that I think gets lost in translation and it is a little confusing for me to read, though I get the general gist of the discussion.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Yes I have heard about the Khazar theory, when I look on the internet that seems to be the prominent topic that shows for Q1b. It seems that there is a lot of controversy that surrounds it. I did not see about the R1b Hungarian Jews now being the new prevailing theory on it. Interesting. I have seen that the thought was on R1a, being most likely "new theory". However I have also seen a few discussions on the internet about R1a and Q traveling into Europe together. So I think there is more to ponder, I hope one day the scientists or even the citizen scientists can figure it out.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Nadene I will keep my eyes peeled for you as match! Especially if you match me on my "Lucky 7"! :-) I think you are correct when you said this chromosome is a remnant of my Jewish ancestor. Now if you happen to still end up a match to me but on different chromosome, then for sure it will be through my mother who has some Colonial American roots. I am glad you were able to get your file to them at FTDNA. Their customer service staff is helpful.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > That is very impressive that you taught English in Israel, and have lived there. I have good friends that are Jewish and visited there last year, and they said it was amazing. These same friends invited my family and I to their Passover Seder this past year, and we really enjoyed it. I hope they invite us again next year.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > I have to confess, I have not seen the movie Exodus, but if I can find it, I think I will watch it. Wow Stanley Goldfoot, that is neat! You mention that he was tall. Was your father tall? My father and his father were both 6'2".
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > It is nice to be able to discuss our Q roots. :-)
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Many thanks,
      > > > > > > Amy
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, "NADENE GOLDFOOT" <goldfoot1@> wrote:
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > Hi Amy,
      > > > > > > > It sounds like you know all the places to search for your genealogy which is good. Don't give up on jewishgen. Keep working on it. I'm still searching my paternal grandmother's maiden name of Jermulowske with no success there. I know my Jewish Genealogical Society of Oregon has had sessions on how to use it, but I'm still finding more there.
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > If there is a cross on your paternal ggrandparent's headstone, you know that far back that he was a Christian. That doesn't mean that he didn't come from Jewish parents or grandparents himself. People have converted for many reasons, from self protection to disinterest in Judaism.
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > Yes, Ian was also Jewish and I finally found our common ancestor and made a tree for them with all their information they were able to give me and connect it with mine. The fact that you also have Lithuanian and Polish connections makes me suspicious that your line could have had Jewish roots. The Mongolian part happens to be part of the origins of Q's. Our Q heritage comes from Mongolia, Siberia and parts of Turkey. There was thought that our Jewish line came from Khazaria, an empire south of Russia in the 700's CE. I bought into that idea for a while and even wrote a post that I was probably descended from the royalty of Khazaria, but this has been debunked by many. Now the prevailing thought is that some Hungarian Jews with a haplogroup of R1b....are more likely candidates for Khazarian origins. I'm still holding out that since we came from that area 15-20,000 years ago, by 5,000 BCE we might have somehow been in Egypt and had be en pa rt of the Other s in the Exodus with Moses and the 12 Tribes of Jacob. We've been found in and around Iraq. Between the ice age and all, slavery practices, it's hard to tell. All I know is that we wound up as Ashkenazi Jews in Eastern Europe and for us, Lithuania and Poland specifically. Yes, I never thought of Tartars, but it's possible because a person is Jewish if they had a Jewish mother. If a Tartar or any other male came into the family that way and was the father of Jewish children raised as Jews, that's all it would take.
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > My results won't be posted on FTDNA until August 7 to 21st. I had one horrible time getting them to FTDNA, no easy thing for me as it involved a zipped file that had to be opened and extracted of which FTDNA finally did for me once I sent the file in a zipped condition to them. With all these matches of yours that are Jewish, it tells me yours was Jewish at some point in time. Chromosome 7, eh. That's interesting. That must be the remnant of your Jewish ancestor. Your 14% Middle Eastern can be another way of saying "Jewish". So Dr. McDonald found with you 5.8% Ssephardic. That's the Jews who were in Spain and Portugal after 70CE when Jerusalem fell to the Romans. We divided then. They took the low road and stayed in the Middle East and my group took the high road to Rome, Germany and on up to Eastern Europe and Russia and are called Ashkenazim.
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > In my Goldfoot blog I have quite a few posts on Jewish history pertaining to my Ashkenazi roots. My mother was not Jewish but converted when she married my father, so I also have an assortment of genes. My mother's mother was from a long line of Swedes in Lumsheden, Sweden. Her father was a Yankee from Vermont whose family, he said, came over not on the Mayflower but the ship after that. It's so much fun. I get to read about our American history and onto the history of our Jewish roots. I also have 3 blogs supporting Israel as I'm also a dual citizen of Israel, having lived there from 1980 to 1985 teaching English as a 2nd language. It was great as I was already a 22 year teacher from the states, so I knew what I was doing. My genealogy interest was just beginning then. I was able to find and meet and become friends with Stanley Goldfoot of Jerusalem (also a 2nd cousin to Ian) who turned out to be one of the fathers of Israel as he was t he Ch ief o f I n telligence for the Stern Group. Remember the movie, Exodus? His part was played by the good looking Italian,
      > > > > > > > Sal Mineo, I'm pretty sure. Only my 3rd cousin, Stanley, as I've now figured out, was very tall and Sal looked short to me.
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > Amy, having our DNA tested leads us to interesting history we never would have thought about otherwise.
      > > > > > > > All the best,
      > > > > > > > Nadene Goldfoot
      > > > > > > > PS, my other blogs:
      > > > > > > > also: http://israel-nadene.blogspot.com
      > > > > > > > http://jewishfactsfromportland.blogspot.com
      > > > > > > > http://jewishbubba.blogspot.com
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > > > > > > From: aol2808
      > > > > > > > To: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com
      > > > > > > > Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2013 7:57 PM
      > > > > > > > Subject: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: 67 Marker Matches
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > Hi Nadene,
      > > > > > > > Sorry for my slow response, I am just getting back from my family vacation. Thank you so much for your reply and the link to your blog. Yes I have been on Ancestry and they have been very helpful for my mother's side of the family, but not much success for my father's side. In the past few months I located the marriage records for my paternal grandfather and his brother's marriage records as well. They had been found on family search.org. I have used the JewishGen site too, but no luck there.
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > You are correct that census records or marriage records for them never stated Yiddish or Hebrew. On my paternal great grandparent's headstone they have a Cross engraved.
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > I had used the word "supposedly" in regard to my great grandparents brothers because I find it odd that there seems to be no trace of them in the records. I am hopeful that one day I will find some record of them. I thought it was odd as well as to why they would leave their farm.
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > That is terrific that you located a match with another Goldfoot through yDNA testing. What an amazing story you guys have! And I will guess that Ian Goldfoot is Jewish as well? This is exactly what I am wondering if the guys who upgraded to more markers still held up as matches and are Jewish. :-) I am totally open to my direct paternal line being Jewish, but I want to be sure. The only thing that my father and my paternal grandfather had both told me was that we are Lithuanian and Polish, but the last name is Lithuanian. And also that the Mongolians had been part of our ancestry. They never elaborated on it, and boy I wish they both were still around to grill them about that. When you hear it all the time growing up you take it that is part of your heritage.
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > That is another reason I don't understand why my father or grandfather never said we are also Jewish? And I am only assuming with this yDNA result as it seems that most will say this is a Jewish haplogroup. But the way I am looking at it, and I could be wrong, is that it is a Central Asian/Siberian haplogroup that converted to being Jewish. So with that said it also made me wonder if this yDNA result of Q could possibly come from a Tatar marriage to a Jewish woman? I did read on Jewish Gen that some Tatars married into the Jewish community as they had trouble finding suitable marriage partners.
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > Nadene you mentioned that you transferred your autosomal results from 23&me to FTDNA? Did your results come in yet? I have my autosomal with FTDNA. My number of matches just recently made it to a little over 100. I do have approx 28-30 matches that are Jewish. :-) They all match me in various spots on my chromosome 7. One is even a guy who is yDNA Q! But he does not match my brother on the 12 marker level. :-( I can also only assume he is Jewish, because I know that he joined the Jewish Q project, and he matches me on chromosome 7. Larry Mayka administrator of the Polish Project, had told me that my brother *might* cluster with him when I can upgrade his kit to more markers. Larry also thought these matches for me *might* go back to Renaissance or Medieval times. Larry has been really helpful, and I appreciate his insights.
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > My Population Finder results are approx 85% Western European (French, Orcadian) and approx 14% Middle Eastern (Palestinian, Iranian, Jewish, Adygei, Bedouin, Bedouin South, and Druze). Every few months FTDNA is sending me a survey to take to ensure the lowest margin of error for my Middle Eastern results. The question they ask me is where in the Middle East is my ancestry from as my data closely matches all these populations. So all the time I answer that I don't know. My mother is part Southern Italian and Albanian so I was never sure if the results came from her as Southern Italians will get a Middle Eastern reading due to old migrations.
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > Not sure if you heard about Dr. McDonald he has been kind to do admixture analysis on raw data for people. I know recently he posted on an adoption forum that he will still take their requests. But he wanted to avoid doing them for 100% Europeans that are not adoptees as he is overwhelmed currently. But would still do them in special circumstances such as NA, Jewish, and Roma ancestry. Anyway for my first analysis from him he gave me no Middle Eastern result. When I heard that he had new populations a few months ago he kindly redid mine and my mother's, for her he found no Jewish result. For me he found 5.8% Sephardic.
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > So really with my autosomal results I know it is coming from my father's side. But which side? Could be from his mother who was part Czechoslovakian and Russian. Could be from my paternal grandfather's mother too? Or from the direct father line? It is very challenging, but fun trying to untangle the past! :-)
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > Thanks again for your thoughts on this.
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > Amy
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, "NADENE GOLDFOOT" <goldfoot1@> wrote:
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > Hi Amy,
      > > > > > > > > We're Jewish and my grandfather would be Q1b1a from Telsiai, Lithuania. Have you done a thorough search for your genealogy records using http://ancestry.com? It's the best in my opinion, though you have to pay for the use of it. Another place to search would be http://jewishgen.org. You can spend a year searching there as there are so many ways to use it. It's a free website. I suggest this because you used the word, "supposedly" in regards to your great grandfather's brothers. I'm curious about what is said about their background and where they came from. Our surname was Goldfus in Lithuania but anglicized to Goldfoot when our grandfather emigrated to England.
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > Being I had another, Ian Goldfoot, to compare with at the time my brother took the test, familytree advised them to take the 25 allele test for starters. We had a distance of 3, and it has remained that way to the 67 allele test. Ian is still our closest match out of all the others, and I've done more genealogy searches and find we are 3rd cousins according to my family tree maker program. A further search into Irish records and I found my grandfather stayed at the home of Ian's grandfather in Dublin. Our branch had gone from Lithuania to England to Ireland to the USA. His branch went from Lithuania to England to Ireland to South Africa. What a surprise to both of us!
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > Now I've gone a step further out of plain curiosity. Because I took the autosomal dna test offered at 23&Me for $99, a bargain I couldn't resist several years ago, I had my brother's results upgraded to their familyfinder test which is also autosomal. I've just transferred my results to FTDNA so that I can compare my brother and my results and see what the differences are. I had over 1,000 matches at 23&me, but only a few that were labeled as 3rd cousins that I can't find on my known family history. I'm pretty sure it'll be the same story at FTDNA.
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > If your census information never said Hebrew, Yiddish anywhere, he may not have been Jewish. He did come over when so many other Jews immigrated from Europe. The reason for Jews leaving was something I have been writing about in many posts in my blogs. This will expain some of the situation for Jews then and why they left eastern Europe. http://jewishfactsfromportland.blogspot.com/2013/06/jews-return-to-their-land-sparked-by.html Owning a large farm and having money would be cause to stay in LIthuania/Poland, not to emigrate if they weren't Jewish. However, maybe he was just caught up in the idea of improving his lot.
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > Nadene Goldfoot
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > > > > > > > From: aol2808
      > > > > > > > > To: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com
      > > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2013 9:39 PM
      > > > > > > > > Subject: [Ashkenazi-Q] 67 Marker Matches
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > Hello I am new to the group. My brother was kind enough to take a 12 marker yDNA test when FTDNA had the $39 sale. His result is Q-M242. I am curious as to how everyone held up as matches that upgraded to the 67 marker level. Did everyone with Jewish ancestry all remain matches at the 67-marker? I know a lot of the members here are my brother's matches at the 12 marker level.
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > My family has no oral history of being Jewish. My father line is from Lithuania/Poland. I have no exact town that they are from. I am hopeful that I will find it someday. My grandfather and father had always said that they are Lithuanian and Polish through this line, and that the Mongolians had affected our ancestry. They would also say that the name is Lithuanian, not Polish. I really find it confusing that they wouldn't say we had Jewish ancestry. My father spoke highly of the Jewish people, so I know he would have no problems with it.
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > Various documents (U.S. census records, and marriage records also in the U.S.) have the place of birth different for my great grandfather, and the spelling of the last name different as well. Places of birth will be listed as either Lithuania, Poland, one record even had Slovakia. Spellings of the last name Krakoski, Krakauskas, and then on my great grandparents headstone Krakaukas. I have no records from overseas for this line. My great grandfather came to the U.S. approx. 1909 to Pennsylvania. Supposedly he came with 5 brothers. The other part of the story was that the family had money and a large farm in Lithuania, but I was never told why they left. And it is my own fault for not being interested enough back then to pester my grandfather!
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > I have looked all over the internet for answers, but still not sure, just more questions. So I am wondering just how many of you guys will still be a match to my brother when I am able to upgrade him to the 67 marker level? Meaning will there be a lot or just a little, or none? I am surprised that he has so many matches at the 12-marker level as Q is a rare haplogroup. I have a cousin who is R1a and he has less 12 marker matches than him. Any input is much appreciated from everyone.
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > Regards,
      > > > > > > > > Amy Krakoski O'Leary (kit-277990)
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