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1379Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] Krupa Theory Ashina>>Khazars>>Askenazi Linked by Q1b is Not Supported by Science

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  • jerry
    Aug 22, 2010
      to negate the ashina link as strongly as mr. howard has is just as  infactual as linking the khazars with r1a. we just don't know what exactly was in the khazar dna to make any link at all. it's all hypothetical, though we can theorize that both q and r1a were likely haplotypes in the khazarian male line, who weren't only a group of turks, but were slavs, alans and other tribes, too.

      From: Robert Michelson <ramichel@...>
      To: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Sun, August 22, 2010 6:16:02 PM
      Subject: Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] Krupa Theory Ashina>>Khazars>>Askenazi Linked by Q1b is Not Supported by Science


      I cannot disagree with you as I am not as informed on the subject as you are.  However, considering the spread of the Q1b, is 800 years a meaningful time frame?  That is, simplistically, 32 generations.  We have Q1b cousins from India (Muslim) as well as the Ashkenazi Jews.  And, from a handful of others around the region. 

      I do not mind discounting the Royal Ashinas, but we really do not have any other focus.  Do you see us getting one in the future?

      Bob Michelson

      From: Dave <dshoward@...>
      To: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Sun, August 22, 2010 8:27:07 PM
      Subject: [Ashkenazi-Q] Krupa Theory Ashina>>Khazars>>Askenazi Linked by Q1b is Not Supported by Science


      Dear Q1b Cousins - It has been a while since I have posted.

      One of our Q1b cousins, Alfred Krupa, has spent a lot of thoughtful time
      and research attempting to link the Royal Ashinas, an almost mythical
      group from a place in northwestern China near the intersection of China
      with Mongolia and Kazakhstan. He theorizes that it may have been his own
      family, Krupa, and the yDNA Q1b that provided the link from the Royal
      Family of the Ashina with the Royal Family of the Khazars and that this
      linkage is the source of Ashkenazi Q1b yDNA.

      Freddy and I have been debating this in another forum and I thought I
      would share this brief summary here.

      While at one time many of us thought that the Khazars may have been the
      source of our Q yDNA this was before the M378 SNP had been discovered
      and before so much more information was known about our group. This
      linkage no longer makes sense.

      It appears that the Ashkenazi Jewish Q1b, with 67 markers tested, share
      a common ancestor about 800 years ago. This is far too recent for the
      Khazars which dissolved as a nation over 1,000 years ago or the
      Radhanites (my recent theory) who went out of business over 1,000 years

      Based on the 2003 study by Behar et al published early 2004 almost all
      Haplogroup Q males in Central Europe are Jewish. The Khazars who merged
      in with the Hungarians, Austrians and a few other countries would have
      spread their Q yDNA among the gentiles as well as the Jews had they
      been the source. This is not supported by the science. The Khazarian
      Haplogroup would be one where there are many gentiles as well as Jews.
      The best candidate for Khazarian yDNA is R1a.

      The theory that the Khazars were the source of our Q1b haplogroup among
      the Ashkenazi Jewish people is now contra-factual (i.e. not true).

      I do not believe Freddy Krupa has conceded this point at all.

      Another point is that if he were the source of the M378 SNP for all the
      rest of us his STRs would be closer to the mode of all our SYS counts.
      However, he is on the fringe. He is not near the mode. It does not
      follow that he would be the source. Palmer and Abrams are right on the
      mode and are far from Krupa.

      I see no Q1b links us to the Royal Ashina or the Royal Khazars.is now in
      the category of nonsense and a hoax.

      I am sure Freddy will disagree but he has argued this with me endlessly.
      I am not convinced.

      Regards to all

      Dave Howard

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