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1369Re: Krupa Theory Ashina>>Khazars>>Askenazi Linked by Q1b is Not Supported by Science

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  • Dave
    Aug 22, 2010
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      Maria,

      Brainstorming is wonderful. However --

      You need to read some of the scientific papers here on this site under files. The ones with Behar as the lead author make it pretty clear that the M378 SNP (Q1b) really is not that ancient among the Jewish people.

      Read the note from Bennett Greenspan I posted as well.

      In fact, the most recent science shows that the definitive Jewish markers may only be about 2,000 years old.

      Keep up the creative ideas.

      Dave

      --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, Maria Alonso <baltanas@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi all,
      >
      > Just brainstorming here; What if members of Haplogroup Q were already part of
      > the genetically diverse population that formed the Hebrew identity back in
      > 1500 BC?. My knowledge in genetics is limited but could a bottleneck effect or
      > founder effect be responsible for the 800 years span of mutation M378? Perhaps
      > M378 could be older if we take that in account?
      >
      > Maria Alonso
      >
      > ________________________________
      > From: Dave <dshoward@...>
      > To: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Sun, August 22, 2010 5:27:07 PM
      > Subject: [Ashkenazi-Q] Krupa Theory Ashina>>Khazars>>Askenazi Linked by Q1b is
      > Not Supported by Science
      >
      > Dear Q1b Cousins - It has been a while since I have posted.
      >
      > One of our Q1b cousins, Alfred Krupa, has spent a lot of thoughtful time
      > and research attempting to link the Royal Ashinas, an almost mythical
      > group from a place in northwestern China near the intersection of China
      > with Mongolia and Kazakhstan. He theorizes that it may have been his own
      > family, Krupa, and the yDNA Q1b that provided the link from the Royal
      > Family of the Ashina with the Royal Family of the Khazars and that this
      > linkage is the source of Ashkenazi Q1b yDNA.
      >
      > Freddy and I have been debating this in another forum and I thought I
      > would share this brief summary here.
      >
      > While at one time many of us thought that the Khazars may have been the
      > source of our Q yDNA this was before the M378 SNP had been discovered
      > and before so much more information was known about our group. This
      > linkage no longer makes sense.
      >
      > It appears that the Ashkenazi Jewish Q1b, with 67 markers tested, share
      > a common ancestor about 800 years ago. This is far too recent for the
      > Khazars which dissolved as a nation over 1,000 years ago or the
      > Radhanites (my recent theory) who went out of business over 1,000 years
      > ago.
      >
      > Based on the 2003 study by Behar et al published early 2004 almost all
      > Haplogroup Q males in Central Europe are Jewish. The Khazars who merged
      > in with the Hungarians, Austrians and a few other countries would have
      > spread their Q yDNA among the gentiles as well as the Jews had they
      > been the source. This is not supported by the science. The Khazarian
      > Haplogroup would be one where there are many gentiles as well as Jews.
      > The best candidate for Khazarian yDNA is R1a.
      >
      > The theory that the Khazars were the source of our Q1b haplogroup among
      > the Ashkenazi Jewish people is now contra-factual (i.e. not true).
      >
      > I do not believe Freddy Krupa has conceded this point at all.
      >
      > Another point is that if he were the source of the M378 SNP for all the
      > rest of us his STRs would be closer to the mode of all our SYS counts.
      > However, he is on the fringe. He is not near the mode. It does not
      > follow that he would be the source. Palmer and Abrams are right on the
      > mode and are far from Krupa.
      >
      > I see no Q1b links us to the Royal Ashina or the Royal Khazars.is now in
      > the category of nonsense and a hoax.
      >
      > I am sure Freddy will disagree but he has argued this with me endlessly.
      > I am not convinced.
      >
      > Regards to all
      >
      > Dave Howard
      >
      >
      >
      >
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