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1368Re: Krupa Theory Ashina>>Khazars>>Askenazi Linked by Q1b is Not Supported by Science

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  • Dave
    Aug 22, 2010

      I do not feel picked on. That there are some new subclades under M378 are wonderful. I do feel like my family, the Ashkenazi Q1b's deserve our own up-to-date SNP since we now have to share M378 with so many others.

      Furthermore, that there are these additional subclades does not diminish my arguments against Freddy Krupa.

      He is insisting that the M378 SNP came to Ashkenazim through the Khazars. This makes no sense based on the research and the TRMCA time line.

      It is looking like the Khazars shared their R1a1 yDNA with us.

      Thanks for the update.

      So is Family Tree DNA going to sell us a test for L245, L272, L315, L301 and L327? Hasn't this work been done by the scientists already? Do you know the results for me?

      Thanks always,


      --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, Rebekah Adele Canada <rebekahthorn@...> wrote:
      > Hi Dave,
      > Not to pick on you or anything... ;-) ...but I have updated the Y-chromosome
      > DNA Haplogroup Q's Draft Tree on the project website.
      > http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ydna_q/default.aspx
      > To summarize:
      > - Q-M378 (South Central Asia, Middle East, Mediterranean)
      > - L245 (Armenian-Judeo-Sicilian)
      > - L272 (Sicilian)
      > - L315 (Ukrainian Jew)
      > - L301 (Iranian)
      > - L327 (Azores Islands)
      > Of course, much more testing is needed. For example, the person who's sample
      > L301 was found in has not tested for L245, L315, or L327. Further, only the
      > L301 discovery person and the two WTY M378+ people have results for L301.
      > Unfortunately, L301, L315, and L327 are not currently sold to the public.
      > Thus, advancing scientific knowledge of M378 and its new subclades is
      > stifled.
      > On a side note though... L301 is not in the Y-DNA Q project. Thus, the
      > information I am able to obtain from FTDNA is limited. This is a good
      > example of why I need *everyone* possible to join the project.
      > ---
      > Regards,
      > Rebekah A. Canada
      > Volunteer Administrator, Family Tree DNA
      > H & HV mtDNA Hg Project
      > Q Y-DNA Hg Project, I-P109 Y-DNA Hg Project, Scandinavian Y-DNA Project
      > http://www.google.com/profiles/rebekahthorn
      > http://friendfeed.com/rebekahthorn
      > On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 8:27 PM, Dave <dshoward@...> wrote:
      > > Dear Q1b Cousins - It has been a while since I have posted.
      > >
      > > One of our Q1b cousins, Alfred Krupa, has spent a lot of thoughtful time
      > > and research attempting to link the Royal Ashinas, an almost mythical
      > > group from a place in northwestern China near the intersection of China
      > > with Mongolia and Kazakhstan. He theorizes that it may have been his own
      > > family, Krupa, and the yDNA Q1b that provided the link from the Royal
      > > Family of the Ashina with the Royal Family of the Khazars and that this
      > > linkage is the source of Ashkenazi Q1b yDNA.
      > >
      > > Freddy and I have been debating this in another forum and I thought I
      > > would share this brief summary here.
      > >
      > > While at one time many of us thought that the Khazars may have been the
      > > source of our Q yDNA this was before the M378 SNP had been discovered
      > > and before so much more information was known about our group. This
      > > linkage no longer makes sense.
      > >
      > > It appears that the Ashkenazi Jewish Q1b, with 67 markers tested, share
      > > a common ancestor about 800 years ago. This is far too recent for the
      > > Khazars which dissolved as a nation over 1,000 years ago or the
      > > Radhanites (my recent theory) who went out of business over 1,000 years
      > > ago.
      > >
      > > Based on the 2003 study by Behar et al published early 2004 almost all
      > > Haplogroup Q males in Central Europe are Jewish. The Khazars who merged
      > > in with the Hungarians, Austrians and a few other countries would have
      > > spread their Q yDNA among the gentiles as well as the Jews had they
      > > been the source. This is not supported by the science. The Khazarian
      > > Haplogroup would be one where there are many gentiles as well as Jews.
      > > The best candidate for Khazarian yDNA is R1a.
      > >
      > > The theory that the Khazars were the source of our Q1b haplogroup among
      > > the Ashkenazi Jewish people is now contra-factual (i.e. not true).
      > >
      > > I do not believe Freddy Krupa has conceded this point at all.
      > >
      > > Another point is that if he were the source of the M378 SNP for all the
      > > rest of us his STRs would be closer to the mode of all our SYS counts.
      > > However, he is on the fringe. He is not near the mode. It does not
      > > follow that he would be the source. Palmer and Abrams are right on the
      > > mode and are far from Krupa.
      > >
      > > I see no Q1b links us to the Royal Ashina or the Royal Khazars.is now in
      > > the category of nonsense and a hoax.
      > >
      > > I am sure Freddy will disagree but he has argued this with me endlessly.
      > > I am not convinced.
      > >
      > > Regards to all
      > >
      > > Dave Howard
      > >
      > >
      > >
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