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Re: [Asatru-U] Reopening a can of worms

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  • Ann Sheffield
    ... Well, yes, but I also seem to be almost in the lone, albeit irrepressiblly vocal, crackpot category on this one. In my experience, most heathens do
    Message 1 of 13 , Feb 22 7:40 AM
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      Arlie Stephens wrote:
      >essential to Asatru.
      >
      > Actually, where I have some slight problems with the document are earlier.
      > >From what I've heard/read from Groa, for example, he's completely missed
      > the point of her version of the magic/non-magic dichotomy ... _and_ he's
      > placed his "middle of the road" well into the "believes in magic" camp.
      > (Groa can of course speak for herself better than I can, but I believe she
      > does _not_ consider belief in the gods as equivalent to belief in magic.)

      Well, yes, but I also seem to be almost in the "lone, albeit
      irrepressiblly vocal, crackpot" category on this one. In my experience,
      most heathens do believe in magic, so it does seem reasonable to
      categorize belief in magic as "middle of the road." I'm not sure how
      important it is in a general overview to have every permutation of
      opinion represented.

      Wassail,

      Groa

      Ann Groa Sheffield
      Medoburg Kindred
      www.medoburg.org
    • kadlinw@hotmail.com
      ... I m very sorry, but I don t remember which essay of Manny s you are referring to. Do you recall if it was to be a stand-alone, or if it was to balance
      Message 2 of 13 , Feb 22 7:47 AM
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        Ann Sheffield wrote:

        > I thought we had also decided that Manny's essay was also quite
        > balanced on the folking/non-folkish division and that we were
        > going to link to it - do others remember differently?

        I'm very sorry, but I don't remember which essay of Manny's you are
        referring to. Do you recall if it was to be a stand-alone, or if it
        was to "balance" the essay by Boðvar which was dropped? We
        decided to drop folkism/non-folkism as a topic because we didn't want
        to over-emphasize the dichotomy at the beginner level. That's why it
        was decided to take out Boðvar's essay and give up any attempt to
        present a alternative view from his view.

        Part of the reason that I like Karl's essay is that it covers issues
        other than folkism/non-folkism, which helps de-emphasize the
        importance of the division, and helps to pass along one of the
        messages of the course, which is "different views exist". The fact
        that it is "one man's viewpoint" doesn't take away from the message.

        --Kadlin
      • Ann Sheffield
        ... The Frigga s Web essay for military chaplains: http://www.reeves-hall.org/chaplain_asatru.htm It might be a good idea for people to take a look at this
        Message 3 of 13 , Feb 22 7:57 AM
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          kadlinw@... wrote:

          > I'm very sorry, but I don't remember which essay of Manny's you are
          > referring to.

          The Frigga's Web essay for military chaplains:

          http://www.reeves-hall.org/chaplain_asatru.htm

          It might be a good idea for people to take a look at this again now and
          decide if we want to include it.

          > Do you recall if it was to be a stand-alone, or if it
          > was to "balance" the essay by Boðvar which was dropped?

          I don't think we included it for balance, as the essay itself strives to
          be neutral and descriptive.

          Wassail,

          Groa

          Ann Groa Sheffield
          Medoburg Kindred
          www.medoburg.org
        • kadlinw@hotmail.com
          ... Oh! That one is in the course for sure, in the What is Asatru section. If I remember right, part of the reason that we decided in the Boðvar debate
          Message 4 of 13 , Feb 22 8:09 AM
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            Ann Sheffield wrote:

            > Kadlin wrote:
            >
            > > I'm very sorry, but I don't remember which essay of Manny's
            > > you are referring to.
            >
            > The Frigga's Web essay for military chaplains:
            > http://www.reeves-hall.org/chaplain_asatru.htm

            Oh! That one is in the course for sure, in the "What is Asatru"
            section. If I remember right, part of the reason that we decided in
            the Boðvar debate that the other materials in the course make it
            clear that "different viewpoints exist" on the folkism question was
            that the chaplain's essay is included.

            --Kadlin
          • Arlie Stephens
            ... Well, I just read the revised document itself, rather than the e-commentary. I have no problem with Karl s discussion of the organizational question; it s
            Message 5 of 13 , Feb 22 8:40 AM
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              On Thu, Feb 22, 2001 at 09:46:33AM -0500, Manny Olds wrote:
              > On Thu, 22 Feb 2001, Arlie Stephens wrote:

              > ) This is probably less touchy than the ancestry/family question ...
              > ) but the idea nonetheless pushed a button enough that I commented.
              > ) (Not, by the way, based on Karl's posted document, which I'd better
              > ) read soon, but these e-comments.)
              >
              > We may have some influence over what Karl writes, but no control. And I
              > think that it would be wrong to ask him to give it an orchidectomy if it
              > expresses what he thinks and is true to his voice.
              >
              > So we can either omit the reference or try to hang a disclaimer/warning
              > on the link. Opinions? Suggestions?

              Well, I just read the revised document itself, rather than the e-commentary.
              I have no problem with Karl's discussion of the organizational question;
              it's very clear to me that he's discussing preferences and, to some extent,
              what people see as essential to Asatru.

              Actually, where I have some slight problems with the document are earlier.
              From what I've heard/read from Groa, for example, he's completely missed
              the point of her version of the magic/non-magic dichotomy ... _and_ he's
              placed his "middle of the road" well into the "believes in magic" camp.
              (Groa can of course speak for herself better than I can, but I believe she
              does _not_ consider belief in the gods as equivalent to belief in magic.)
              Karl pretty much states you have to believe in magic (which he equates to
              believing in the paranormal) to have any religion at all; this seems
              inconsistent with some Asatru I've encountered.

              I'd say include it, but with some disclaimer about "one person's opinion"
              and "not all heathens believe in magic". Maybe comment about his lore section
              too ... where once again I feel that his "middle of the road" may be well
              over to one side of the division. (Of course, it's mostly a statement of
              what he believes, but the presentation somewhat blurred the boundary for me,
              probably because 2/3 of the paragraph is about Karl's belief, and only
              the first line or two are general.)

              --
              Arlie

              (Arlie Stephens arlie@...)
            • Karl Donaldsson
              ... Boy, I don t know that I express any middle of the road in that section. ... Interesting. I do put belief in the paranormal in the same basket with
              Message 6 of 13 , Feb 22 8:48 AM
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                >From: Arlie Stephens <arlie@...>

                >From what I've heard/read from Groa, for example, he's completely missed
                >the point of her version of the magic/non-magic dichotomy ... _and_ he's
                >placed his "middle of the road" well into the "believes in magic" camp.

                Boy, I don't know that I express any "middle of the road" in that section.

                >(Groa can of course speak for herself better than I can, but I believe she
                >does _not_ consider belief in the gods as equivalent to belief in magic.)
                >Karl pretty much states you have to believe in magic (which he equates to
                >believing in the paranormal) to have any religion at all; this seems
                >inconsistent with some Asatru I've encountered.

                Interesting. I do put belief in the paranormal in the same basket with
                belief on the gods, and belief in magic; anyone who buys any one of these
                sorts of thinngs does, in my opinion, equate to some "faith," and therefore,
                is representative of Asatru. I undertand that that Groa does not believe in
                operant magic, but her belief in the gods and in wights seems clear to me
                that I put her in the "Practicioner" category.

                By the way, to respond to your comment about "putting things into neat
                little bundles," well, that's what I do. Classification, identification,
                and polarization are necessary skills for my occupation, and also something
                I rather enjoy. It's a way of reveling in differences which is delightful,
                because if I didn't acknowledge differences, I feel the spice of life would
                be rather flat. Unfortuantely, since I am not trained well in impartial
                reporting, it does leak through to my writing, such to the extent that I
                cannot recommend many of my writings for "unbiased" reporting. Without
                understanding what you folks are looking for, if you're looking for
                accounts, probably don't use this work. If you're looking for opinions,
                well, I'm full of those, and full of other stuff, as well. ;-)


                >I'd say include it, but with some disclaimer about "one person's opinion"
                >and "not all heathens believe in magic".

                Quite.

                >Maybe comment about his lore section
                >too ... where once again I feel that his "middle of the road" may be well
                >over to one side of the division.

                Well, each side seems to have it's own "middle," as it were, but then again,
                I view these as guidelines.

                I also tend to apply things very specifically to specifi people, and I use a
                broader brush in the absence of individual discussions. This of course,
                shows, and could be another reason to warn the reader in some other fashion
                that this is opinion.

                >(Of course, it's mostly a statement of
                >what he believes, but the presentation somewhat blurred the boundary for
                >me,
                >probably because 2/3 of the paragraph is about Karl's belief, and only
                >the first line or two are general.)

                Ahh, the freedom and liberation to write one's opinion! It's not just for
                lists, folks, it for web-pages, too! ;-) Hey, if all we talk about is what
                is reported by lore, recorded by history, discovered by Archaeologists, and
                surmised by linguists and anthropologists, it might not speak as much to
                what the people who are currently practicing are doing, which has generally
                been my personal focus on religion, which is that is a breathing, living
                entity, aware of current modes and events. I suppose others may not view it
                this way, so I suggest you present the article noting the author is more
                about _doing_ than in _reporting,_ again, depending on what you folks are
                looking for.

                Thank you for the wonderful feedback! This is absolutely delightful!
                Feedback from people who know what they're talking about, and posess the
                skills for critique!



                '/\` Frith upon your house
                //\\ Karl Donaldsson
                \\// mekboy@...
                `\/' http://i.am/mekboy
                --------------------------------------------
                Member of the Kindred of Ravenswood
                Zionsville, Indiana USA
                http://www.iquest.net/~chaviland/Rindex.html
                ---------------------------------------------
                To Vali! To Vengeance! To Honor! To Kin!

                _________________________________________________________________
                Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
              • Karl Donaldsson
                ... Unfortuantely, it does take more than it s fair share of space there, in that article, because it deals with people more directly, rather than dealing with
                Message 7 of 13 , Feb 22 8:56 AM
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                  >From: kadlinw@...

                  >Part of the reason that I like Karl's essay is that it covers issues
                  >other than folkism/non-folkism, which helps de-emphasize the
                  >importance of the division...

                  Unfortuantely, it does take more than it's fair share of space there, in
                  that article, because it deals with people more directly, rather than
                  dealing with abstracts. However, it is, in my estimation, the single
                  largest divider in Asatru, thus deserving a bit more space. It's also
                  probably the first one most people encounter, but I don't know that for sure
                  -- perhaps I shoudl re-read the "actual frequently asked questions" again to
                  see how that pops up.

                  Ultimately, it's only a part of the article because it's part of Asatru,
                  because the people in the religion practice these things. None of these
                  divisions are evident in the lore, archaeology, or so forth, other than
                  different groups with cults or what have you. It leads me to beleive that
                  these "tectonic plates" are more modern artifacts than ancient ones.
                  Perhaps _that_ is the caveat sought.



                  '/\` Frith upon your house
                  //\\ Karl Donaldsson
                  \\// mekboy@...
                  `\/' http://i.am/mekboy
                  --------------------------------------------
                  Member of the Kindred of Ravenswood
                  Zionsville, Indiana USA
                  http://www.iquest.net/~chaviland/Rindex.html
                  ---------------------------------------------
                  To Vali! To Vengeance! To Honor! To Kin!

                  _________________________________________________________________
                  Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
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