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Re: [Asatru-U] Re: distribution and maintenance

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  • Manny Olds
    On Mon, 15 Jan 2001, Ann Sheffield wrote: ) People will print out hardcopy for themselves regardless of what we ) say. The most we can hope for is that, if we
    Message 1 of 10 , Jan 15, 2001
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      On Mon, 15 Jan 2001, Ann Sheffield wrote:

      ) People will print out hardcopy for themselves regardless of what we
      ) say. The most we can hope for is that, if we word the copyright notice
      ) strongly and clearly, people won't sell it or represent our work as
      ) their own. I think what we want to insist on (and hope people respect
      ) is):
      ) -The text may not be sold
      ) -The text may be reproduced for private use _in_its_entirety_,
      ) including the copyright notice.

      We should have a hard look at the Project Gutenberg language.


      Manny Olds (oldsma@...) of Riverdale Park, Maryland, USA

      "I'm getting dizzy here -- you've given him permission to steal, but if
      he has permission, he can't steal, so he could steal until he asked
      'can I steal', but you said "yes" and now he can't . . ." -- Joy Beeson
    • Kadlin Waltheofsdottir
      The current copyright notice on the page reads as follows: ************** Copyright © 2001, Asatru-U, http://www.egroups.com/group/Asatru-U. All rights
      Message 2 of 10 , Jan 15, 2001
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        The current copyright notice on the page reads as follows:
        **************
        Copyright © 2001, Asatru-U, http://www.egroups.com/group/Asatru-U.

        All rights reserved. This text may be copied in its entirety and
        freely used by individuals, on the mandatory conditions that no fee
        may be charged, that credit must be given to Asatru-U, and that this
        copyright notice must be attached. This does not include the right
        to
        repost on the Internet or to distribute via an e-mail list or
        newsgroup. Adaptation or republication in any form by any entity
        other than Asatru-U is strictly prohibited.
        **************

        I believe Manny's main objection to this is that it says
        "Asatru-U" rather than "Frigga's Web Reeves Hall" (or whatever).
        That's not a problem to change when we get ready to distribute this
        thing. In the meantime, the current attribution has probably brought
        people to the Asatru-U page from HeathenBooks who wanted to use the
        in-progress outline.

        There was a suggestion that we examine Project Guttenberg's
        copyright notice. I'm not sure their example helps because their
        books are not protected by copyright (they are distributing public
        domain works). Their notices are there to protect their trademark,
        as
        well as to protect them from any possible liability for transcription
        errors. They encourage people to freely disseminate copies the
        material everywhere, which is different from our problem.

        I think we are agreed that the Beginner's Course will be posted
        somewhere on Frigga's Web, and *possibly* on one other site (other
        than the archives of this list). I also think that anyone who posts
        something on the internet and does not expect people to either print
        it out for reading offline or to save to their local disk for later
        offline perusal is naive at best. (I think that it is also an
        arguable position, though I doubt it will ever be tested in court,
        that absent some notice that those activities are forbidden, they
        constitute normal usage of a web page and are not
        copyright-infringing
        activities any more than cutting an article out of a newspaper and
        saving it to read later would be. Especially if the web page in
        question is not supported by advertising revenue. But I digress,
        and until there is a case on it or the legislature acts, we will
        never know.)

        I think that while we don't want to see people reposting the
        outline on their own websites, I doubt we have a problem with someone
        e-mailing the file itself to friends, or printing out hard copies and
        handing them to friends and interested parties. I presume that no
        one
        has a problem with someone printing out several copies and handing
        them out at some sort of study group.

        I think we are agreed that the course should have the revision
        date displayed prominently at the top so people know what version
        they
        have. But if they are getting it from Frigga's Web, they should be
        getting the most current version.

        Now, an analysis of the copyright notice.
        >>Copyright © 2001, Asatru-U, http://www.egroup
        s.com/group/Asatru-U.
        [Or whatever.] All rights reserved. <<
        This is "magic language" in the copyright world. Notice of
        copyright is not required for protection in the United States or the
        EU. But it is still required in a number of other countries. Notice
        of copyright in this form will get it for you in most if not all of
        them. Putting in the URL of the source of the page is helpful so
        people can find where it came from if they got it in an email, or
        printed it out with a browser that isn't set to print the source URL
        on the page.

        >>This text may be copied in its entirety and freely used by
        individuals, on the mandatory conditions that no fee may be charged,
        that credit must be given to Asatru-U, and that this copyright notice
        must be attached. <<
        I put this in to insure that when people do print out the course
        and give it to people, that they understand that they have to credit
        the source.

        >>This does not include the right to repost on the Internet or to
        distribute via an e-mail list or newsgroup. Adaptation or
        republication in any form by any entity other than Asatru-U is
        strictly prohibited.<<
        This last language is more or less obvious, but I wanted to make
        it clear that telling people that they can print out the page without
        worry doesn't mean that they can go around treating it as if it were
        there own. It also makes it clear that individual groups shouldn't
        take the course and customize it for their own group without asking
        permission.

        Well, that's where I stand on this, and why I wrote the
        copyright
        disclaimer the way I did. I suppose it could be rewritten to require
        that hard copy can only be distributed if it is in the form that the
        web browser prints out the page, or that it be unaltered. (Although
        I
        think the last sentence makes it clear that alterations aren't
        allowed.) It could also be changed to make it a little clearer that
        people are permitted to give copies to friends. However, I didn't
        want to start redrafting it until I knew what you folks really want
        this thing to say.

        Taking out everything *but* the first "Copyright 2001 . . . .
        All
        rights reserved" part is also an option. This would force people to
        just rely on fair use principles to try to figure out what they are
        allowed to do with it. However, I think that would probably deter
        many people from giving copies to friends, and I don't think that is
        our intent. If I recall correctly, Rick Riedlinger specifically
        wanted to be able to email this outline to people. (Of course, he
        could just be given permission to do so without affecting the
        copyright notice.)

        Of course, no copyright disclaimer is actually going to stop
        anyone from infringing a copyright. All it can do is to notify
        people
        that what they are doing they might be infringement. People are
        going
        to do what they think they need to, right or wrong.

        --Kadlin
      • Manny Olds
        On Mon, 15 Jan 2001, Kadlin Waltheofsdottir wrote: ) ) The current copyright notice on the page reads as follows: ) ************** ) Copyright © 2001,
        Message 3 of 10 , Jan 16, 2001
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          On Mon, 15 Jan 2001, Kadlin Waltheofsdottir wrote:

          )
          ) The current copyright notice on the page reads as follows:
          ) **************
          ) Copyright © 2001, Asatru-U, http://www.egroups.com/group/Asatru-U.

          The problem that I see is that "Asatru-U" doesn't exist. It is not a legal
          entity capable of owning property; it is more like an unregistered service
          mark of the Reeves Hall of the Frigga's Web Association.


          Manny Olds (oldsma@...) of Riverdale Park, Maryland, USA

          Difficult? Me? Nah.
        • Kadlin Waltheofsdottir
          ... oups.com/group/Asatru- U. ... Um, yes Manny, I believe I acknowleged the need to change that in my post. When it is decided what entity s name should
          Message 4 of 10 , Jan 16, 2001
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            --- In Asatru-U@egroups.com, Manny Olds <oldsma@c...> wrote:
            > On Mon, 15 Jan 2001, Kadlin Waltheofsdottir wrote:
            >
            > )
            > ) The current copyright notice on the page reads as follows:
            > ) **************
            > ) Copyright © 2001, Asatru-U, http://www.egr
            oups.com/group/Asatru-
            U.
            >
            > The problem that I see is that "Asatru-U" doesn't exist. It is not
            > a legal entity capable of owning property; it is more like an
            > unregistered service mark of the Reeves Hall of the Frigga's Web
            > Association.
            >
            Um, yes Manny, I believe I acknowleged the need to change that in my
            post. When it is decided what entity's name should appear in the
            notice, it will go there. (Reeve's Hall? Frigga's Web? Plumbers &
            Pipefitters Union Local 143?) I don't think anyone is suggesting
            otherwise.

            Actually, "Asatru-U" does exist. It is this list. The course is a
            work of joint authorship, the authors of which are the people on the
            list (and on Asatru-Novice) who created the course-- "Asatru-U" is
            just a shorthand way of saying that. Now, on the main page of the
            list on e-Groups, it says that the finished course materials will
            belong to Frigga's web (or something to that general effect).
            Ultimately, then, the copyright notice should reflect that. (I'm not
            even going to get into the question of whether or not the
            announcement on the listserv welcome message or main page is
            effective to transfer copyright from the joint authors to Frigga's
            Web-- we'll just assume that it is.)

            Anyway, if "Asatru-U" is a service mark of Frigga's Web, then it *is*
            Frigga's Web and is just as capable as Frigga's Web of owning
            property. Out of curiosity, just what sort of a legal entity is
            Frigga's Web/Reeves Hall anyway? Is non-profit religious
            corporation? Is it a partnership? Is it an unincorporated
            association?

            Sorry to all for this overlong discussion of legal issues, it is a
            topic which is perhaps too near to my heart.

            --Kadlin
          • Manny Olds
            On Tue, 16 Jan 2001, Kadlin Waltheofsdottir wrote: ) The problem that I see is that Asatru-U doesn t exist. It is not ) a legal entity capable of owning
            Message 5 of 10 , Jan 16, 2001
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              On Tue, 16 Jan 2001, Kadlin Waltheofsdottir wrote:

              ) > The problem that I see is that "Asatru-U" doesn't exist. It is not
              ) > a legal entity capable of owning property; it is more like an
              ) > unregistered service mark of the Reeves Hall of the Frigga's Web
              ) > Association.
              ) >
              ) Um, yes Manny, I believe I acknowleged the need to change that in my
              ) post.

              Sorry. I am in the saddle between respiratory flu and digestive flu, so I
              am not working at peak efficiency.

              ) Anyway, if "Asatru-U" is a service mark of Frigga's Web, then it *is*
              ) Frigga's Web and is just as capable as Frigga's Web of owning
              ) property. Out of curiosity, just what sort of a legal entity is
              ) Frigga's Web/Reeves Hall anyway? Is non-profit religious
              ) corporation? Is it a partnership? Is it an unincorporated
              ) association?

              501(c)3, "religious and educational", incorporated in Oklahoma.


              Manny Olds (oldsma@...) of Riverdale Park, Maryland, USA
              Holder of the Clipboard

              Reeves Hall of Frigga's Web (http://www.reeves-hall.org)
              Frigga's Web (http://www.friggasweb.org)
            • Kadlin Waltheofsdottir
              ... Oh dear! I hope you feel better soon! ... Excellent! --K
              Message 6 of 10 , Jan 16, 2001
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                Manny Olds wrote:
                >
                > Sorry. I am in the saddle between respiratory flu and digestive
                > flu, so I am not working at peak efficiency.
                Oh dear! I hope you feel better soon!

                > ) property. Out of curiosity, just what sort of a legal entity is
                > ) Frigga's Web/Reeves Hall anyway? Is non-profit religious
                > ) corporation? Is it a partnership? Is it an unincorporated
                > ) association?
                >
                > 501(c)3, "religious and educational", incorporated in Oklahoma.
                Excellent!

                --K
              • Manny Olds
                On Tue, 16 Jan 2001, Kadlin Waltheofsdottir wrote: ) Manny Olds wrote: ) ) Sorry. I am in the saddle between respiratory flu and digestive ) flu, so I am
                Message 7 of 10 , Jan 16, 2001
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                  On Tue, 16 Jan 2001, Kadlin Waltheofsdottir wrote:

                  ) Manny Olds wrote:
                  ) >
                  ) > Sorry. I am in the saddle between respiratory flu and digestive
                  ) > flu, so I am not working at peak efficiency.
                  )
                  ) Oh dear! I hope you feel better soon!

                  Based on the course in other family members, I can look forward to
                  several days of, er, "accelerated retrograde waste disposal".

                  I will dig in to the draft, I will. In a few days, unless someone in my
                  family comes down with something new.


                  Manny Olds (oldsma@...) of Riverdale Park, Maryland, USA

                  I used to worry if I should "get a life", but now I find I have a surplus.
                • Mike Normand
                  Heilsa All, Not to throw another wrench into the gears, but the copyright is only for the links page (course outline) right. Wassail! Mike Normand ===== I have
                  Message 8 of 10 , Jan 16, 2001
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                    Heilsa All,

                    Not to throw another wrench into the gears, but the
                    copyright is only for the links page (course outline)
                    right.

                    Wassail!
                    Mike Normand

                    =====
                    I have a weird Wyrd ;)

                    Yahoo IM:Niemok
                    AOL IM: normiemike

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                  • Manny Olds
                    On Tue, 16 Jan 2001, Mike Normand wrote: ) Not to throw another wrench into the gears, but the ) copyright is only for the links page (course outline) ) right.
                    Message 9 of 10 , Jan 16, 2001
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                      On Tue, 16 Jan 2001, Mike Normand wrote:

                      ) Not to throw another wrench into the gears, but the
                      ) copyright is only for the links page (course outline)
                      ) right.

                      According to the notice on our main page at egroups:

                      "This discussion group operates loosely under the umbrella of the Reeves
                      Hall of the Frigga's Web Association and will adhere to the FWA policies
                      on civil conduct. Unless otherwise noted, the contents of an individual
                      message is the property of the person who wrote it. The compiled archives
                      of the list and any course material developed by the list may be used only
                      with the permission of the list owner or the Reeves Hall of the Frigga's
                      Web Association."

                      So any message that you write or any document you submit for our reference
                      is yours. The edited product (and the message archive) belong to the
                      Reeves Hall. (Recalling that the RH has repeatedly stated its willingness
                      to either hand over the product to someone else or to keep responsiblity
                      for it once the Asatru-U discussion group comes to a decision on that.)


                      Manny Olds (oldsma@...) of Riverdale Park, Maryland, USA
                      Holder of the Clipboard

                      Reeves Hall of Frigga's Web (http://www.reeves-hall.org)
                      Frigga's Web (http://www.friggasweb.org)
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