Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Basic thoughts

Expand Messages
  • Rick A. Riedlinger
    Hello all- Concerns have been expressed to me offlist recently and a couple weeks ago by people who have strong reservations about the slant of AU s work and
    Message 1 of 4 , Jun 23, 2000
    • 0 Attachment
      Hello all-

      Concerns have been expressed to me offlist recently and a couple weeks ago
      by people who have strong reservations about the slant of AU's work and the
      association with the RoT. I asked them to remain with us, but issues should
      be reopened. Granted, I am low on the totem poll as far as experience, and
      my opinions often are wide of the mark, but I deem it important for me to be
      able to talk to a variety of people with widely different priorities
      regarding Asatru. So I bring up the following:

      1. Do we wish this course to be useful and available to all coming to
      Asatru, even those who offend some of us with their views?
      Most of those with strong views are already set in their ways, and are not
      our target audience. Would not the rest and the very new benefit from a calm
      discourse on what we can agree on and a basic summary of differences?
      Responses to the questionnaire AU-novice put out indicate these factional
      differences are confusing and are a concern to newbies.

      2. Will it really bother anyone who may put up a link to the course on their
      respective page?
      For example, Groa a raised a point of concern to her, she does not want an
      article with her name on it on the AFA site. Fair enough, but I think this
      will be highly unlikely. On the otherhand, what if the AFA linked to the
      course, and the course contains your works?

      3. Is it feasible to stand on our own? Once the course is set, how much real
      work would be necessary? I realize that out of 60 members to anything, only
      a small handful involve themselves.
      And I thought Asatru was doing, not just talking. Do we really need the RoT?
      For better or worse, we take on all their baggage. When asked previously, I
      indicated I had no real problem with this. I am rethinking that position.
      But only if it is feasible. My main purpose is to get this done and usable.

      My 'dream' is a neutral resource that concentrates on helping those who
      want to, learn to be Asatru. This can be done. I wonder about the validity
      of trying to teach anyone 'how' to do anything. Provide raw information in a
      format which experience has shown to work, and get the hel out of the way
      unless asked. Is that not how most of us arrived here? What we can do is
      make the effort more efficient.

      4. Are we overcomplicating things? For months I have been providing a list
      of links to newbies who have asked. It contains all the factions I know of,
      links to online texts, and a double-handful of website articles I found of
      use to me. And a couple examples of real stupidity. Add to this a list of
      discussion groups, a very short book list, good and bad, introduce it, and
      there is a beginners course. Manny has suggested something similar to
      AU-novice.

      Is it really so hard to come up with an intermediate course?
      Bet it could mostly be done in a weekend.
      I don't have your all's education, and may be too simplistic in a lot of
      ways, but nothing is happening except sliding backwards.

      I realize a lot of you have time constraints and responsibilities. But do we
      do this or is this just another <shudder> committee?

      My .02.

      Rick
    • Lee Ann Rabe
      ... Part of the issue here is that some of us with strong views think there IS no neutral view. There are Asatruar, and then there are those who have a
      Message 2 of 4 , Jun 23, 2000
      • 0 Attachment
        At 12:54 PM 6/23/00 -0300, you wrote:
        >1. Do we wish this course to be useful and available to all coming to
        >Asatru, even those who offend some of us with their views?
        >Most of those with strong views are already set in their ways, and are not
        >our target audience. Would not the rest and the very new benefit from a calm
        >discourse on what we can agree on and a basic summary of differences?
        >Responses to the questionnaire AU-novice put out indicate these factional
        >differences are confusing and are a concern to newbies.

        Part of the issue here is that some of us with "strong views" think there
        IS no neutral view. There are Asatruar, and then there are those who have
        a racist agenda with a few religious trimmings.

        I *think* this is why Groa was uncomfortable with her name being linked to
        the AFA site, and frankly, I don't want that either. I can't stop them
        from linking to my website or to something I've written, but I won't
        participate in something that is directly co-sponsored by them.

        And, for the record, I don't see the RoT as having "baggage". It's all in
        the perspective.

        It's possible that we ARE overcomplicating things... however, I think that
        the process is useful, to see what the community feels a fairly-experienced
        Asatruar should know/be familiar with.

        Lee Ann

        ----
        gak@...
      • Swain Wodening
        Wassail Rick,On 23 Jun 00, at 12:54, Rick A. Riedlinger wrote:Hello all- Concerns have been expressed to me offlist recently and a couple weeks
        Message 3 of 4 , Jul 4, 2000
        • 0 Attachment
          Wassail Rick,

          On 23 Jun 00, at 12:54, Rick A. Riedlinger wrote:

          > Hello all-
          >
          > Concerns have been expressed to me offlist recently and a couple weeks
          > ago by people who have strong reservations about the slant of AU's
          > work and the association with the RoT. I asked them to remain with us,
          > but issues should be reopened. Granted, I am low on the totem poll as
          > far as experience, and my opinions often are wide of the mark, but I
          > deem it important for me to be able to talk to a variety of people
          > with widely different priorities regarding Asatru. So I bring up the
          > following:
          >
          > 1. Do we wish this course to be useful and available to all coming to
          > Asatru, even those who offend some of us with their views? Most of
          > those with strong views are already set in their ways, and are not our
          > target audience. Would not the rest and the very new benefit from a
          > calm discourse on what we can agree on and a basic summary of
          > differences? Responses to the questionnaire AU-novice put out indicate
          > these factional differences are confusing and are a concern to
          > newbies.

          My answer to this would be yes, I have no question about that. It
          should be available to all.

          >
          > 2. Will it really bother anyone who may put up a link to the course on
          > their respective page? For example, Groa a raised a point of concern
          > to her, she does not want an article with her name on it on the AFA
          > site. Fair enough, but I think this will be highly unlikely. On the
          > otherhand, what if the AFA linked to the course, and the course
          > contains your works?
          >
          > 3. Is it feasible to stand on our own? Once the course is set, how
          > much real work would be necessary? I realize that out of 60 members to
          > anything, only a small handful involve themselves. And I thought
          > Asatru was doing, not just talking. Do we really need the RoT? For
          > better or worse, we take on all their baggage. When asked previously,
          > I indicated I had no real problem with this. I am rethinking that
          > position. But only if it is feasible. My main purpose is to get this
          > done and usable.

          I fear if we try to stand on our own, we will fail. Look at who is
          active on this list. We all have substansial duties elsewhere, and
          were we to try to manage, maintain, and update a program
          continously by ourselves we would probably drop from exhaustion
          or burn out. My own plan was to help in the discussion phases of
          the program, help with the design, and then bail. I have too much
          tied up with the Ealdriht to have time for much else, and what time I
          have left is for the Troth... and I have already been told that even if
          the Troth were to sponser the program, I would be too busy with
          clergy trainees to deal with laymen (and I believe that). I am
          certain others on the list have similar time constraints.

          It is perhaps in our best interests then to allow the FW or Troth or
          both to handle the program's administration. Both orgs. have
          hidden talent that could administer the program, and if called into
          duty could do so very well for years.

          As for the Troth's baggage, yes, there is baggage. Plenty of it.
          But not anything of the sort that cannot be changed, or already
          belongs to the past. Dave as a Rede member of the Troth can
          probably answer better than I can, but as an Elder in training, and
          10 year member, I will give it my go.

          The Troth has an open door policy on membership. It is anti-racist.
          It does not however tell other organizations how to run them selves
          or who to admit as members. Its official stand on both the AFA,
          AA, and OR is neutrality. Now, that being said, I have to point out,
          that even if you look at the Troth's past, the official stand has never
          been anything more than this. Individual members may have acted
          as if it were... and used that as an excuse to attack the AFA, AA,
          and OR, but I personally do not recall there ever being an official
          policy to "exterminate" the racists.

          Right now the Folkish vs. Universialist views is being debated by
          the Troth off and on. Myself, I feel that most of the Folkish views
          are closer to the of most of the Troth's than the AFAs. That being
          so, perhaps any Folkish worried about the Troth need to just get
          over it.


          >
          > My 'dream' is a neutral resource that concentrates on helping those
          > who want to, learn to be Asatru. This can be done. I wonder about the
          > validity of trying to teach anyone 'how' to do anything. Provide raw
          > information in a format which experience has shown to work, and get
          > the hel out of the way unless asked. Is that not how most of us
          > arrived here? What we can do is make the effort more efficient.

          I have to agree, a neutral resource is best... give them the raw
          information and be done with it.

          >
          > 4. Are we overcomplicating things? For months I have been providing a
          > list of links to newbies who have asked. It contains all the factions
          > I know of, links to online texts, and a double-handful of website
          > articles I found of use to me. And a couple examples of real
          > stupidity. Add to this a list of discussion groups, a very short book
          > list, good and bad, introduce it, and there is a beginners course.
          > Manny has suggested something similar to AU-novice.
          >
          > Is it really so hard to come up with an intermediate course?
          > Bet it could mostly be done in a weekend.
          > I don't have your all's education, and may be too simplistic in a lot
          > of ways, but nothing is happening except sliding backwards.

          It took us a month to come up with the AE's, and even then I did
          most of the work, but no, it should not be too difficult to come up
          with an intermediate course. Maybe the problem is too many
          cooks (-:


          -------------------------------------------------------------
          Dosenhof Wodenson
          http://www.mp3.com/Dosenhof

          __________________________________________________
          Do You Yahoo!?
          Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
          http://im.yahoo.com
        • Swain Wodening
          On 23 Jun 00, at 21:40, Lee Ann Rabe wrote:At 12:54 PM 6/23/00 -0300, you wrote: 1. Do we wish this course to be useful and available to all coming to
          Message 4 of 4 , Jul 4, 2000
          • 0 Attachment
            On 23 Jun 00, at 21:40, Lee Ann Rabe wrote:

            > At 12:54 PM 6/23/00 -0300, you wrote:
            > >1. Do we wish this course to be useful and available to all coming to
            > >Asatru, even those who offend some of us with their views? Most of
            > >those with strong views are already set in their ways, and are not
            > >our target audience. Would not the rest and the very new benefit from
            > >a calm discourse on what we can agree on and a basic summary of
            > >differences? Responses to the questionnaire AU-novice put out
            > >indicate these factional differences are confusing and are a concern
            > >to newbies.
            >
            > Part of the issue here is that some of us with "strong views" think
            > there IS no neutral view. There are Asatruar, and then there are
            > those who have a racist agenda with a few religious trimmings.
            >
            > I *think* this is why Groa was uncomfortable with her name being
            > linked to the AFA site, and frankly, I don't want that either. I
            > can't stop them from linking to my website or to something I've
            > written, but I won't participate in something that is directly
            > co-sponsored by them.
            >
            > And, for the record, I don't see the RoT as having "baggage". It's
            > all in the perspective.


            Wassail Lee Ann,

            The problem is that IT is all in the perspective. Too, realisticly
            having been with the Troth for 10 years now off and on, I can say,
            yes, there is baggage. Everything from folks still burned by the
            "Troth Wars" (the political bickering that lead to Pru's leaving) to
            folks arguing over how to handle the racist to simply
            mismanagement qualify as baggage. You get enough of this
            "baggage" and it starts to become an issue with some folks. I do
            know very active and responsiable non-folkish Heathens that will
            not join the Troth because either they sent in their membership
            dues and never got a response, or they got burned in the fight
            between KveldulfR and Pru, or numerous other reasons.

            I do not think this should affect using the Troth for reference
            material or even let it take care of the program. I am just pointing
            out that if one were to be realistic, they would have to say, yes, the
            Troth has its own baggage. As an Elder in Training of the Troth... I
            cannot realisticly say anything else.

            Frith!
            Swain
            -------------------------------------------------------------
            Dosenhof Wodenson
            http://www.mp3.com/Dosenhof

            __________________________________________________
            Do You Yahoo!?
            Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
            http://im.yahoo.com
          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.