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Re: [Asatru-U]

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  • Swain Wodening
    On 8 Jun 00, at 0:18, dnoel47208@aol.com wrote:In a message dated 6/7/00 7:28:02 PM Mountain Daylight Time, wodening@geocities.com writes:
    Message 1 of 24 , Jun 7, 2000
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      On 8 Jun 00, at 0:18, dnoel47208@... wrote:

      > In a message dated 6/7/00 7:28:02 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
      > wodening@... writes:
      >
      > << Well, I am not certain how accurate my statements on the FW are.
      > I have heard grumblings from some factions, but then again,in
      > another couple of months they may be complaining about
      > something else. Therefore the Reeves Hall may be idea. The only
      > problem I can see is a lack of manpower on FW's part. Only Alissa,
      > Manny, and Rod seem to take an active part (with Joell and Jo helping
      > out on Lina). Rod's also Regional Coordinator of the Great Plains
      > Ring, Alissa and Eric and the boys are relocating. That leaves
      > Manny, unless we can convince Jo or Joell to help. If Manny is
      > willing to bear the weight of running the program, I suppose we could
      > place it with FW. I know as an FW member I would help. I do believe
      > Groa is a member as well. The Troth however now has the manpower to
      > run the program, and the resources to print it. They were pretty
      > enthustiastic about it. >>
      > Wassail,
      > I certainly believe the Troth would be interested in printing such a
      > program. Our current beginners program booklet (which is much more
      > basic than this program) is in need of revision and updating, and
      > there may be more demand for an intermediate program. The other half
      > of the program, managing it on a day to day basis and providing the
      > teaching manpower is something the Godmen/women in the Troth might
      > want to take on. Swain, could you float something about this on the
      > Troth Clergy list? I suspect that FW may just want to provide it as
      > package for use by a group for self study or with their own leader. I
      > think the idea of providing it to both groups to promote in their own
      > ways is a sound one. In Frith, David Noel
      >


      I will definitely bring up there. I know at least a few of the Godman
      were at the discussion done by Groa and Diana Paxson was there
      as well. So they already have a fair idea of what it is about. A
      cooperate effort between the two orgs. could work well too though.

      Frith!
      Swain
      -------------------------------------------------------------
      Dosenhof Wodenson
      http://www.mp3.com/Dosenhof

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    • dnoel47208@aol.com
      In a message dated 6/7/00 7:28:02 PM Mountain Daylight Time, wodening@geocities.com writes:
      Message 2 of 24 , Jun 7, 2000
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        In a message dated 6/7/00 7:28:02 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
        wodening@... writes:

        << Well, I am not certain how accurate my statements on the FW are.
        I have heard grumblings from some factions, but then again,in
        another couple of months they may be complaining about
        something else. Therefore the Reeves Hall may be idea. The only
        problem I can see is a lack of manpower on FW's part. Only
        Alissa, Manny, and Rod seem to take an active part (with Joell and
        Jo helping out on Lina). Rod's also Regional Coordinator of the
        Great Plains Ring, Alissa and Eric and the boys are relocating.
        That leaves Manny, unless we can convince Jo or Joell to help. If
        Manny is willing to bear the weight of running the program, I
        suppose we could place it with FW. I know as an FW member I
        would help. I do believe Groa is a member as well. The Troth
        however now has the manpower to run the program, and the
        resources to print it. They were pretty enthustiastic about it. >>
        Wassail,
        I certainly believe the Troth would be interested in printing such a program.
        Our current beginners program booklet (which is much more basic than this
        program) is in need of revision and updating, and there may be more demand
        for an intermediate program. The other half of the program, managing it on
        a day to day basis and providing the teaching manpower is something the
        Godmen/women in the Troth might want to take on. Swain, could you float
        something about this on the Troth Clergy list?
        I suspect that FW may just want to provide it as package for use by a group
        for self study or with their own leader. I think the idea of providing it to
        both groups to promote in their own ways is a sound one.
        In Frith,
        David Noel
      • Lissa
        ... Mark, this probably isn t the place for discussion of who I define as racist. It just isn t relevant, and I shouldn t have said anything. Be well, Lissa
        Message 3 of 24 , Jun 7, 2000
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          > > I've been leery of FW because they don't take a stand against the
          > > racists (sorry, Manny).
          >
          > Is the following not self explanatory?

          Mark, this probably isn't the place for discussion of who I define as
          racist. It just isn't relevant, and I shouldn't have said anything.

          Be well,
          Lissa


          Rational, adj.
          Deviod of all delusions save those of observation,
          experience and reflection.
          Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary
        • Mark Hosselton
          Wassail! ... I forgot to thank you for your input. Seriously, it s been pretty quiet lately in our part of the realm.:-) Feel free to contact us with any
          Message 4 of 24 , Jun 7, 2000
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            Wassail!
            --- Lissa <qibhom@...> wrote:

            > Mark, this probably isn't the place for discussion
            > of who I define as
            > racist. It just isn't relevant, and I shouldn't
            > have said anything.
            >
            > Be well,
            > Lissa

            I forgot to thank you for your input. Seriously, it's
            been pretty quiet lately in our part of the realm.:-)

            Feel free to contact us with any concerns you might
            have about FWA.:-)

            In Frith!

            =====
            Mark Hosselton aethling@... 'mannes Barhelmes'
            ****************************************************
            *Frigga's Web Association*
            http://www.friggasweb.org
            *The Wyrd Page* Germanic/Nordic Heathen Religion
            http://home.att.net/~hosselton/wyrd/seaxnet.htm
            ****************************************************

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          • Manny Olds
            On Wed, 7 Jun 2000, Swain Wodening wrote: ) Great Plains Ring, Alissa and Eric and the boys are relocating. ) That leaves Manny, unless we can convince Jo or
            Message 5 of 24 , Jun 8, 2000
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              On Wed, 7 Jun 2000, Swain Wodening wrote:

              ) Great Plains Ring, Alissa and Eric and the boys are relocating.
              ) That leaves Manny, unless we can convince Jo or Joell to help. If

              But...Alissa is relocating to *here*, so this actually makes things
              easier. And you do underestimate how much other stuff is going on, I
              think.

              Nevertheless, I think that for distributing syllabi and resource lists and
              fair-use sized extracts from some of the longer works and whatnot, the
              Reeves Hall is well-suited. And also to say, every couple of years,
              "Avengers, Assemble!" and get an update team going.

              But ongoing administration of course supervision, exams, certification,
              anything like that, would be right out of our strength. That is where a
              group like the Troth comes in: they already have machinery in place for
              that kind if thing. And, as you say, they are quite interested in this
              kind of program.

              The FW trustees are generally okay with the idea of such an alliance, and
              we have some budget available for the project. Details would have to be
              ironed out before we cut an official ribbon, of course.

              I think that any formal mooting of details will have to wait until later
              in the summer, however. Alissa is moving and I have some personal stuff
              coming up that will make it difficult to keep up with it. But if we get
              some kind of general agreement to the idea established, perhaps we could
              have an FWA/Troth Asa-U powwow at the East Coast Thing in August here in
              Maryland.

              Or is there some imperative to get it all nailed down before then?


              Manny Olds <oldsma@...> of Riverdale Park, Maryland, USA

              Land of Confusion <http://www.clark.net/~oldsma>
              Frigga's Web <http://www.friggasweb.org>
              Reeves Hall of Frigga's Web <http://www.clark.net/~oldsma/reeves.htm>
              Vingolf Fellowship <http://www.vingolf.org/>
            • Swain Wodening
              On 8 Jun 00, at 7:03, Manny Olds wrote:On Wed, 7 Jun 2000, Swain Wodening wrote: ) Great Plains Ring, Alissa and Eric and the boys are relocating. )
              Message 6 of 24 , Jun 8, 2000
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                On 8 Jun 00, at 7:03, Manny Olds wrote:

                > On Wed, 7 Jun 2000, Swain Wodening wrote:
                >
                > ) Great Plains Ring, Alissa and Eric and the boys are relocating. )
                > That leaves Manny, unless we can convince Jo or Joell to help. If
                >
                > But...Alissa is relocating to *here*, so this actually makes things
                > easier. And you do underestimate how much other stuff is going on, I
                > think.
                >
                > Nevertheless, I think that for distributing syllabi and resource lists
                > and fair-use sized extracts from some of the longer works and whatnot,
                > the Reeves Hall is well-suited. And also to say, every couple of
                > years, "Avengers, Assemble!" and get an update team going.
                >
                > But ongoing administration of course supervision, exams,
                > certification, anything like that, would be right out of our strength.
                > That is where a group like the Troth comes in: they already have
                > machinery in place for that kind if thing. And, as you say, they are
                > quite interested in this kind of program.
                >
                > The FW trustees are generally okay with the idea of such an alliance,
                > and we have some budget available for the project. Details would have
                > to be ironed out before we cut an official ribbon, of course.
                >
                > I think that any formal mooting of details will have to wait until
                > later in the summer, however. Alissa is moving and I have some
                > personal stuff coming up that will make it difficult to keep up with
                > it. But if we get some kind of general agreement to the idea
                > established, perhaps we could have an FWA/Troth Asa-U powwow at the
                > East Coast Thing in August here in Maryland.
                >
                > Or is there some imperative to get it all nailed down before then?
                >


                Wassail Manny,

                I don't see that there is any need to hurry. The East Coast Althing
                would probably be the perfect time to do it. The best approach I
                can see is an FW/Troth cooperative effort. This way no one gets
                over worked. Something which can easily happen with a program
                such as this.

                Frith!
                Swain
                -------------------------------------------------------------
                Dosenhof Wodenson
                http://www.mp3.com/Dosenhof

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              • Swain Wodening
                On 8 Jun 00, at 7:03, Manny Olds wrote:On Wed, 7 Jun 2000, Swain Wodening wrote: ) Great Plains Ring, Alissa and Eric and the boys are relocating. )
                Message 7 of 24 , Jun 8, 2000
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                  On 8 Jun 00, at 7:03, Manny Olds wrote:

                  > On Wed, 7 Jun 2000, Swain Wodening wrote:
                  >
                  > ) Great Plains Ring, Alissa and Eric and the boys are relocating. )
                  > That leaves Manny, unless we can convince Jo or Joell to help. If
                  >
                  > But...Alissa is relocating to *here*, so this actually makes things
                  > easier. And you do underestimate how much other stuff is going on, I
                  > think.
                  >
                  > Nevertheless, I think that for distributing syllabi and resource lists
                  > and fair-use sized extracts from some of the longer works and whatnot,
                  > the Reeves Hall is well-suited. And also to say, every couple of
                  > years, "Avengers, Assemble!" and get an update team going.
                  >
                  > But ongoing administration of course supervision, exams,
                  > certification, anything like that, would be right out of our strength.
                  > That is where a group like the Troth comes in: they already have
                  > machinery in place for that kind if thing. And, as you say, they are
                  > quite interested in this kind of program.

                  Well, you do have at least one person in FW that is fully capable of
                  administering such a program and that is Jo. The question is
                  whether she would or not, and I am not the one to ask her. But
                  she has completed the AE gebur program which is as about as
                  difficult as the Troth Godman program if not a little more so. I am
                  not certain if there is any excepting yourself and perhaps Groa or
                  Alissa that know more about the lore and administering a Heathen
                  org. I guess as an FW member this is an informal nomination of Jo
                  to help you on the FW end of things Manny.


                  >
                  > The FW trustees are generally okay with the idea of such an alliance,
                  > and we have some budget available for the project. Details would have
                  > to be ironed out before we cut an official ribbon, of course.
                  >
                  > I think that any formal mooting of details will have to wait until
                  > later in the summer, however. Alissa is moving and I have some
                  > personal stuff coming up that will make it difficult to keep up with
                  > it. But if we get some kind of general agreement to the idea
                  > established, perhaps we could have an FWA/Troth Asa-U powwow at the
                  > East Coast Thing in August here in Maryland.
                  >
                  > Or is there some imperative to get it all nailed down before then?
                  >
                  >
                  > Manny Olds <oldsma@...> of Riverdale Park, Maryland, USA
                  >
                  > Land of Confusion <http://www.clark.net/~oldsma>
                  > Frigga's Web <http://www.friggasweb.org>
                  > Reeves Hall of Frigga's Web <http://www.clark.net/~oldsma/reeves.htm>
                  > Vingolf Fellowship <http://www.vingolf.org/>
                  >
                  >
                  > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
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                  > --

                  As you can see the proposed idea has been sent to the Troth
                  clergy list and Troth Redesmen not on the clergy list as well as
                  select FW trustess (namely Alissa).

                  Frith!
                  Swain
                  -------------------------------------------------------------
                  Dosenhof Wodenson
                  http://www.mp3.com/Dosenhof

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                • Ann Sheffield
                  ... Nonetheless, that s how some of us feel, and I brought it up simply because I think we need to be very clear about all this NOW rather than having everyone
                  Message 8 of 24 , Jun 8, 2000
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                    Úlfgrím goði wrote:
                    > When I see a statement to
                    > the effect of, "if group X is included, I want nothing to do with it", I am
                    > offended.

                    Nonetheless, that's how some of us feel, and I brought it up simply
                    because I think we need to be very clear about all this NOW rather than
                    having everyone working on different sets of unspoken assumptions that
                    are later violated, leading to disappointment and anger.

                    It sounds as if the majority of people who have been doing the bulk of
                    the actual work on this course so far are moving towards having it be a
                    Troth/FWA cooperative effort. I'd be happy with that. People who
                    aren't presumably won't work on it if that's the route we take, just as
                    I (and, I believe, many others) won't work on it if the AFA is
                    involved. You are free to disapprove of my attitude and choices, but
                    they are mine to make.

                    Wassail,

                    Groa
                  • Ann Sheffield
                    ... I know you ve been offering this from the beginning, and it is a generous and appreciated offer. However, it still hinges on one person, which worries me.
                    Message 9 of 24 , Jun 8, 2000
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                      Hringari wrote:

                      >
                      > I know the complications truly, with all the pages and sites I run, but the
                      > offer is still open to develop a site of its own and connect it back to
                      > whereever you feel most comfortable.

                      I know you've been offering this from the beginning, and it is a
                      generous and appreciated offer. However, it still hinges on one person,
                      which worries me. I have no doubt that your offer is made in good
                      faith, and also that you (having done a lot of Web stuff) know what's
                      involved. But, what if some terrible and unpredictable upheaval happens
                      in your life? The advantage of working with an established group is
                      that it acts as something of a buffer against the slings and arrows of
                      fortune.

                      Wassail,

                      Groa
                    • Swain Wodening
                      On 8 Jun 00, at 20:25, Rick A. Riedlinger wrote:I can (and did) expect it to reflect the outlook of all the practitioners of the faith in question,
                      Message 10 of 24 , Jun 8, 2000
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                        On 8 Jun 00, at 20:25, Rick A. Riedlinger wrote:

                        > >I can (and did) expect it to reflect the outlook of all the
                        > >practitioners
                        > of the faith in question, not one self-identified clique therein.
                        >
                        > I think this is a case of more similarities than differences. And it
                        > will reflect the input of those that stay and work on it, how can it
                        > not?
                        >
                        > The whole racist/universalist problem, for it's great seriousness to
                        > many, is of little practical importance to many others.
                        >
                        > Wasn't there, don't care. Won't accept an identity given by friend or
                        > foe. I just want to get on with the work.
                        >
                        > Rick
                        >
                        >

                        Rick,

                        I totally agree with that attitude.

                        Frith!
                        SSwain
                        -------------------------------------------------------------
                        Dosenhof Wodenson
                        http://www.mp3.com/Dosenhof

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                      • dnoel47208@aol.com
                        Wassail, In a message dated 6/7/00 9:43:40 PM Mountain Daylight Time, ulfgrim@gersey.org writes:
                        Message 11 of 24 , Jun 8, 2000
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                          Wassail,


                          In a message dated 6/7/00 9:43:40 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
                          ulfgrim@... writes:

                          <<
                          NEWS FLASH: Folkish Asatuar are the majority, and they have to be
                          acknowledged as such.>>
                          I have not seen anything to convince me that this is the case. Folkish
                          Asatruar are more unified and have a louder voice, but I am not sure they are
                          the numerical majority.

                          <<You want to create a curriculum for "Asatru"? You'd better damn well have
                          the Folkish camp represented, or it's just a pipe dream of "What I want
                          Asatru to be," and thus useless.>>

                          How can we expect to have our religion become what we want of it if we are
                          unwilling to put forward "What I want Asatru to be"? Nobody expects Baptists
                          to present the Catholic Catechism in Sunday School. Yes, this program will
                          represent the outlook of a particular group of people, namely those who
                          design it and those who distribute and administer it. We should expect
                          nothing less.

                          << I must add I say this as someone who is neither Folkish, Universalist, or
                          (when it comes down to it) Asatru. You're worried about the Troth sponsoring
                          this course? Why not have the AFA sponsor it too? Are you really interested
                          in representing Asatru as a whole? Get every faction involved.

                          Otherwise it's an exercise in "let's get the liberals a forum" and nothing
                          else. And if that's the case, just shut it down now. >>

                          While I am not happy with the terms liberal and universalist to describe what
                          I have seen on this list, I don't see why the idea that this is going to
                          give a forum to the ideas of the folks sponsoring it should be a problem.
                          Folkish groups don't seem to be bending over backwards to give our ideas
                          equal time on their projects, and we don't expect them to. There is already
                          lots of material presenting both sides of the Folkish/non-Folkish debate. If
                          we allow concerns of presenting all sides of every controversial issue to
                          weigh heavily in the material, new folks will see those issues as far more
                          important to the religion then they are.

                          In Frith,
                          David Noel
                        • Rick A. Riedlinger
                          ... of the faith in question, not one self-identified clique therein. I think this is a case of more similarities than differences. And it will reflect the
                          Message 12 of 24 , Jun 8, 2000
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                            >I can (and did) expect it to reflect the outlook of all the practitioners
                            of the faith in question, not one self-identified clique therein.

                            I think this is a case of more similarities than differences. And it will
                            reflect the input of those that stay and work on it, how can it not?

                            The whole racist/universalist problem, for it's great seriousness to many,
                            is of little practical importance to many others.

                            Wasn't there, don't care. Won't accept an identity given by friend or foe. I
                            just want to get on with the work.

                            Rick
                          • Úlfgrím goði
                            Heilsa, ... I can (and did) expect it to reflect the outlook of all the practitioners of the faith in question, not one self-identified clique therein. Thanks
                            Message 13 of 24 , Jun 8, 2000
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                              Heilsa,

                              <dnoel47208@...> wrote:

                              > Yes, this program will
                              > represent the outlook of a particular group of people, namely those who
                              > design it and those who distribute and administer it. We should expect
                              > nothing less.

                              I can (and did) expect it to reflect the outlook of all the practitioners of
                              the faith in question, not one self-identified clique therein.

                              Thanks for clarifying just what this project really is about. I'm glad I
                              found out now, rather than later. I'll leave you all to your work.

                              ÚlfgrímR goði, Gers Ey Goðorð

                              My Homepage: http://www.gersey.org/members/ulfgrim
                              Main Page: http://www.gersey.org

                              "Heathen isn't a label or a religion. It's what I am."
                            • Manny Olds
                              On Thu, 8 Jun 2000, [iso-8859-1] Úlfgrím goði wrote: ) Thanks for clarifying just what this project really is about. I m glad I ) found out now, rather than
                              Message 14 of 24 , Jun 9, 2000
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                                On Thu, 8 Jun 2000, [iso-8859-1] Úlfgrím goði wrote:

                                ) Thanks for clarifying just what this project really is about. I'm glad I
                                ) found out now, rather than later. I'll leave you all to your work.

                                I don't think we yet have reached clarity on what the project is all
                                about. At the moment, it is the Reeves Hall of Frigga's Web facilitating
                                discussion *by individuals* on that topic.

                                It turns out that the Troth has already had a similar idea on the To Do
                                list, so that is part of the discussion and has led a larger number of
                                Troth members to participate in the discussion than we might have had
                                otherwise. And, unless some more or less official representatives of a
                                similarly situated alternative group show up and express more or less
                                official interest in getting involved as an organization, it seems likely
                                to end up in the hands of the FWA and the Troth.

                                But that does not mean that we have any clarity on how questions of
                                differences of belief will be handled, at all. And that certainly does not
                                mean that members of other organizations will not have a large part in
                                shaping the project. If FWA policy continues to guide the activity,
                                however, then that means that it will handled with as much openness,
                                delicacy and fairness as is humanly possible--no matter whose hands are
                                holding the pen.

                                I ask you all to review the relevant FWA policies. These can be found at
                                the FWA web site (main URL below) and are linked out of the Asatru-U links
                                page at e-groups.


                                Manny Olds <oldsma@...> of Riverdale Park, Maryland, USA
                                Holder of the Clipboard

                                Reeves Hall of Frigga's Web <http://www.clark.net/~oldsma/reeves.htm>
                                Frigga's Web <http://www.friggasweb.org>
                              • dnoel47208@aol.com
                                In a message dated 6/8/00 6:21:06 PM Mountain Daylight Time, ulfgrim@gersey.org writes:
                                Message 15 of 24 , Jun 9, 2000
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                                  In a message dated 6/8/00 6:21:06 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
                                  ulfgrim@... writes:

                                  << I can (and did) expect it to reflect the outlook of all the practitioners
                                  of
                                  the faith in question, not one self-identified clique therein.

                                  Thanks for clarifying just what this project really is about. I'm glad I
                                  found out now, rather than later. I'll leave you all to your work. >>
                                  Wassail,
                                  First of all, I hope I did not define this project for anyone. I am
                                  merely speaking my own opinion. If things go as planned I may well be
                                  involved in distributing it, but I have had almost no input into the proposed
                                  curricula up to this point.
                                  Second, I think you missed the point I was trying to make. I think we
                                  should be perfectly happy to accept input from folks who aremembers of any
                                  Asatru organization or none, basing our reaction on the suggestions they
                                  give. I don't know if anyone has been deliberately excluded from this list,
                                  but I would doubt it. My point is that if someone feels a particular view is
                                  not represented in the curriculum, they are free to argue for it themselves.
                                  I just don't see why we should spend our time and effort giving a forum to a
                                  viewpoint that no-one here supports. If I am incorrect and their are folks
                                  already on the list who feel their view of Asatru is not being well
                                  represented, they should speak up.

                                  In Frith,
                                  David Noel
                                • Deborah Shilling
                                  ... about. I m ... your work. ... Manny, did I miss something? I don t recall any emails stating that anyone who wanted to work would be excluded? Deb
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Jun 9, 2000
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                                    > ) Thanks for clarifying just what this project really is
                                    about. I'm
                                    > glad I
                                    > ) found out now, rather than later. I'll leave you all to
                                    your work.
                                    >

                                    Manny, did I miss something? I don't recall any emails stating
                                    that anyone who wanted to work would be excluded?

                                    Deb


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                                  • Manny Olds
                                    On Fri, 9 Jun 2000, Deborah Shilling wrote: ) Manny, did I miss something? I don t recall any emails stating ) that anyone who wanted to work would be
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Jun 9, 2000
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                                      On Fri, 9 Jun 2000, Deborah Shilling wrote:

                                      ) Manny, did I miss something? I don't recall any emails stating
                                      ) that anyone who wanted to work would be excluded?

                                      There haven't been any. The discussion has been about which organizations
                                      will end up hosting or administering the resulting materials and courses.


                                      Manny Olds <oldsma@...> Riverdale Park, Maryland, USA

                                      "A moral system is a lot more likely to succeed by judging people on the
                                      basis of their actions than by judging them on the basis of what you mind
                                      and don't mind, or what or whom you like or dislike."
                                      -- William Bainbridge
                                    • Deborah Shilling
                                      ________________________________________________ Get your own 800 number - Free Free voicemail, fax, email, and a lot more http://www.ureach.com/reg/tag ...
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Jun 9, 2000
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                                        ________________________________________________
                                        Get your own "800" number - Free
                                        Free voicemail, fax, email, and a lot more
                                        http://www.ureach.com/reg/tag


                                        ---- On Fri, 9 Jun 2000, Manny Olds (oldsma@...) wrote:

                                        > On Fri, 9 Jun 2000, Deborah Shilling wrote:
                                        >
                                        > ) Manny, did I miss something? I don't recall any emails
                                        stating
                                        > ) that anyone who wanted to work would be excluded?
                                        >
                                        > There haven't been any. The discussion has been about which
                                        > organizations
                                        > will end up hosting or administering the resulting materials
                                        and
                                        > courses.

                                        Then this relates to the comments about the AFA and hosting by
                                        <possibly> ROT or Frigga's Web?

                                        Alrighty then.
                                        Deb
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