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  • ella anghel
    Hi, everybody! I m new to the group, just joined a couple of minutes ago... I joined primarily to learn as much as possible about Loki, my favorite among the
    Message 1 of 23 , Sep 29, 2007
      Hi, everybody! I'm new to the group, just joined a couple of minutes ago...

      I joined primarily to learn as much as possible about Loki, my favorite among the dwellers of Asgard. I am an anthropologist and my interest is mostly scientific in the matter. I've been studying Loki on my own for a while now and I would love your input on my many lingering questions. I understood that Loki is an unimportant or unloved and invoked deity in Asatru, still I hope that some of the members of this group will be willing to discuss the subject with me.

      Also I would be glad to help develop the courses on Asatru in any way I can.

      Thanks and all the best,
      Ella


      ---------------------------------
      Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Ratatask Thora
      Hi Ella ( and everybody else!) I m actually working on a paper on Loki & how he s perceived in Asatru, though I doubt it will be done any time soon. It s a
      Message 2 of 23 , Sep 29, 2007
        Hi Ella ( and everybody else!)

        I'm actually working on a paper on Loki & how he's perceived in Asatru, though I doubt it will be done any time soon. It's a very long and involved topic, so there's no way I can say everything here. But I'll do my best to summarize.

        Basically, there are 3 schools of thought on Loki. He's either a troublemaker, a god of chaos and the (rather abrupt, but often positive) change that comes out of chaos, or an enemy of our gods. All of these aspects are apparent in the lore, but a lot of it comes down to: do you accept Loki as the god of the early Eddas, where he is a traveling companion and friend of the gods, or do you view him as the later Loki, who kills Odin's son and is at the head of the battle against the gods? If you view him as the latter, then invoking him during a ritual to the gods (or maybe even invoking him at all) really doesn't make much sense. Look at it this way: would you invite someone to dinner with your family if they had betrayed your family, killed a member of your family, and wished the destruction of them all? It's just really not a good idea!

        However, many view Loki as the Loki in the early Eddas and ignore this later aspect of Loki. Some actually believe that these are two distinctly different characters who Snorri Sturlson either mistook to be the same character in the early tales, or chose to make the same to add drama to his tales. I tend to think that the latter Loki is more likely Utgard-Loki who is spoken of in the Eddas. Asatruars who only view him as that character, see him either as a trouble-maker or a god of chaos. I tend to dispute the god of chaos because he actually seems malicious in a number of the tales he is in. I believe gods of chaos are usually more likely to cause trouble for less malicious reasons, but I haven't studied chaos gods in depth, so I could be wrong. If you view him as a god of chaos, well then as with many Pagan religions today, some people decide to embrace chaos and worship him, and some chose to stay far away from chaos and keep him out of their devotions.

        It is my understanding that the character of Loki in some form is found outside of the prose edda in places like archeological evidence (carvings or paintings or such), but that there is no evidence of him ever being worshipped by our ancestors.

        I'm very interested to hear your views on Loki from an anthropological standpoint. Please share!


        Su "Ratatask" Þóra
        Gythja of Eplagarðr Kindred (www.eplagarthrkindred.org)
        MD/VA/WV Steward, The Troth (www.thetroth.org)

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Kimberley Henderson
        ... minutes ago... ... favorite among the dwellers of Asgard. I am an anthropologist and my interest is mostly scientific in the matter. I ve been studying
        Message 3 of 23 , Sep 29, 2007
          --- In Asatru-U@yahoogroups.com, ella anghel <kellermaniac@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi, everybody! I'm new to the group, just joined a couple of
          minutes ago...
          >
          > I joined primarily to learn as much as possible about Loki, my
          favorite among the dwellers of Asgard. I am an anthropologist and my
          interest is mostly scientific in the matter. I've been studying Loki
          on my own for a while now and I would love your input on my many
          lingering questions. I understood that Loki is an unimportant or
          unloved and invoked deity in Asatru, still I hope that some of the
          members of this group will be willing to discuss the subject with me.
          >
          > Also I would be glad to help develop the courses on Asatru in any
          way I can.
          >
          > Thanks and all the best,
          > Ella
          >
          >
          > ---------------------------------
          > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo!
          Travel.
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >My loved ones hail Loki all the time 4th for keeping us on our toes
        • Kimberley Henderson
          ... Asatru, though I doubt it will be done any time soon. It s a very long and involved topic, so there s no way I can say everything here. But I ll do my
          Message 4 of 23 , Sep 30, 2007
            --- In Asatru-U@yahoogroups.com, Ratatask Thora <ratatask@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi Ella ( and everybody else!)
            >
            > I'm actually working on a paper on Loki & how he's perceived in
            Asatru, though I doubt it will be done any time soon. It's a very
            long and involved topic, so there's no way I can say everything
            here. But I'll do my best to summarize.
            >
            > Basically, there are 3 schools of thought on Loki. He's either a
            troublemaker, a god of chaos and the (rather abrupt, but often
            positive) change that comes out of chaos, or an enemy of our gods.
            All of these aspects are apparent in the lore, but a lot of it comes
            down to: do you accept Loki as the god of the early Eddas, where he
            is a traveling companion and friend of the gods, or do you view him
            as the later Loki, who kills Odin's son and is at the head of the
            battle against the gods? If you view him as the latter, then
            invoking him during a ritual to the gods (or maybe even invoking him
            at all) really doesn't make much sense. Look at it this way: would
            you invite someone to dinner with your family if they had betrayed
            your family, killed a member of your family, and wished the
            destruction of them all? It's just really not a good idea!
            >
            > However, many view Loki as the Loki in the early Eddas and ignore
            this later aspect of Loki. Some actually believe that these are two
            distinctly different characters who Snorri Sturlson either mistook to
            be the same character in the early tales, or chose to make the same
            to add drama to his tales. I tend to think that the latter Loki is
            more likely Utgard-Loki who is spoken of in the Eddas. Asatruars who
            only view him as that character, see him either as a trouble-maker or
            a god of chaos. I tend to dispute the god of chaos because he
            actually seems malicious in a number of the tales he is in. I
            believe gods of chaos are usually more likely to cause trouble for
            less malicious reasons, but I haven't studied chaos gods in depth, so
            I could be wrong. If you view him as a god of chaos, well then as
            with many Pagan religions today, some people decide to embrace chaos
            and worship him, and some chose to stay far away from chaos and keep
            him out of their devotions.
            >
            > It is my understanding that the character of Loki in some form is
            found outside of the prose edda in places like archeological evidence
            (carvings or paintings or such), but that there is no evidence of him
            ever being worshipped by our ancestors.
            >
            > I'm very interested to hear your views on Loki from an
            anthropological standpoint. Please share!
            >
            >
            > Su "Ratatask" Þóra
            > Gythja of Eplagarðr Kindred (www.eplagarthrkindred.org)
            > MD/VA/WV Steward, The Troth (www.thetroth.org)
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >The way I see it as is Loki is one of the Gods and he is seen as a
            trickster a trouble maker and he also wants more like all power is an
            issue for a genius mind there isnt enough to entertain anyone with
            such a creative mind who is chaos in itself he wanted more
            recognition and I hail him 4th 1 ODIN 2 THOR 3 FREJA 4 LOKI HAIL ODIN
            FOR WISDOM THOR FOR STRENGTH FREJA FOR LOVE AND BEAUTY AND LOKI FOR
            KEEPING ME ON MY TOES. Loki was created by the gods like all of us
            and I see him as a wise but greedy God and yes he betrayed but when
            you have gods that are warriors life is battle to them and battle is
            what Loki did, He still is respected We respect Odin and he would
            sometimes give victory to the unexpected so maybe we should sometimes
            look at the opposite and give victory.
          • ~~ARCHIE~~
            Hello all, I just joined the group. I am here to learn about Asatru and Heathenry, as I have discovered it is the path that is chosen for me. Hope to
            Message 5 of 23 , Sep 30, 2007
              Hello all,
              I just joined the group. I am here to learn about Asatru and
              Heathenry, as I have discovered it is the path that is chosen for me.
              Hope to correspond with as many of you as I can.

              ~~Archie~~
            • ella anghel
              Hello, Ratatask! I was very pleased to see responses to my quest. I think that a paper about the way Loki is perceived in Asatru today is quite anthropological
              Message 6 of 23 , Sep 30, 2007
                Hello, Ratatask!

                I was very pleased to see responses to my quest. I think that a paper about the way Loki is perceived in Asatru today is quite anthropological it's self, it is a topic I myself thought would be interesting to study at some point, so I would be interested to learn more about you findings and also about the methods you are using in your investigation.

                At first I felt an attraction to the figure of Loki because I always had a soft spot for the villains... But as I looked closer I became puzzled with the many layers that made him up so I started digging deeper. First I concluded that as a trickster he must be the manifestation of an archetype, so I set out to prove that. After little research into the subject I found that Jung had already written about this at length. Also I found many loose ends, so to speak, in the Loki = a trickster theory. There for I set out to find proof that he isn't actually a trickster and has been forced into the category by ethnographers in the early 19th century. This has also been theorised by others before me (life isn't fair!) as Giordano Grottanelli points out in one of the articles I've been reading about Loki.

                He does have something of a trickster, yet that is not his role. My guess(though not an original one alas!) is that later Christian interpolation made him out to be evil. As far as I can tell from what I read so far, including some poems of the Edda, the concept of Wyrd is most high and nobody can stand against it. Nowhere does it say that Loki wanted Ragnarook to start, he is but one of the instruments of Faith. And yes he does join the fight on the wrong side but he is after all a Jotun so he fights against the enemy of his kind. That is if he is Jotun... lately I found that he is sometimes considered a Vanir. I am still researching the matter of his origins.

                I am really upset that most texts concerning the Norse Gods have been tempered with by Christians and that has made things harder to set straight. If indeed at first Loki was a spirit of nature and aid to the Aesir only later to be identified with Lucifer as the Christian evil-incarnate then a lot of the Edda is make believe.

                The Utgath-Loki character also puzzles me. Like you, I have considered that there are in actuality two or more characters merged in Loki, one would be the mischievous yet harmless buffoon who always rights his wrong-doings and is punished severely and the other would be the magical uncontrolled force of destruction. When analyzing these I always try to get into a frame of mind that would make sense to the vikings and leave modern thought patterns aside. That is mostly what I hoped to get by joining this group.

                I find that Ragnarook is a very original take on The End of All Things mainly because nobody actually wins. Every participant perishes in the fight and the world is renewed and made better, also I find that the new world described is actually the Christian world which makes me ask myself how did Ragnarook play out originally?

                I would love to read more of your findings about worship today if you don't mind, not just about Loki but maybe his children as well?

                All the best
                Ella


                ---------------------------------
                Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows.
                Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • liberator_9
                Hi, Archie, I don t remember if I replied, but welcome to the e-list. Stephen
                Message 7 of 23 , Oct 5, 2007
                  Hi, Archie, I don't remember if I replied, but welcome to the e-list.
                  Stephen


                  --- In Asatru-U@yahoogroups.com, "~~ARCHIE~~" <waroberson3017@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > Hello all,
                  > I just joined the group. I am here to learn about Asatru and
                  > Heathenry, as I have discovered it is the path that is chosen for me.
                  > Hope to correspond with as many of you as I can.
                  >
                  > ~~Archie~~
                  >
                • Spider Orengoth
                  Hello, The confirmation email said that I had to send an email before sending messages so I am. I am an ecclectic wanting to learn more about Norse
                  Message 8 of 23 , Aug 24, 2008
                    Hello,

                    The confirmation email said that I had to send an email before sending messages so I am. I am an ecclectic wanting to learn more about Norse Paganism/Asatru/Heathenism. I look forward to participating in the group. Thank you, and may the wind always be on your back.


                    -SPIDER-





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Adrienne Paolini
                       Hello I noticed that there hasn t been much activity on this of late and I know people have very busy lives but I am looking into some Goddesses (Skadi
                    Message 9 of 23 , Dec 17, 2013
                         Hello I noticed that there hasn't been much activity on this of late and I know people have very busy lives but I am looking into some Goddesses (Skadi and Freya). I was also looking for information on Seidr/Seidhr. I am not of Germanic or Norse decent (to my knowledge) But am part of the "alternative" religion "movement". I use quotes on this because I don't look at it as a religion it is my path I walk. I had come across the name Skadi a while ago but am not finding much information.

                         I am rambling at this point and I apologize. I just want to learn as much about these points with out the generic information I have been able to acquire on my own.

                      Thank you for your time!
                      Adrienne
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