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Re: [Asatru-U] Re: Up Date of Asatru-U Web Page

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  • Manny Olds
    ... It is hard to manage the discussion as neatly as you would like. If we are not talking about describing the differences between the groups, I restrict
    Message 1 of 29 , Jan 12, 2007
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      On 1/12/07, Doug Freyburger <dfreybur@...> wrote:
      > On Grimnir's Gate it is allowed to state that folkish is the only true kind
      > of Asatru and to bash the unis. This moderation policy qualifies the
      > gate as a ghetto for the folkish.
      >
      > On Asatru-U it is allowed to state that folkish is inherently racist and
      > to bash the folkish - Remember responses to my comments in the last
      > couple of months. This moderation policy qualifies the university as a
      > ghetto for the religious.
      >
      > Quite simple how it works that way.

      It is hard to manage the discussion as neatly as you would like.

      If we are not talking about describing the differences between the
      groups, I restrict slurs pretty stringently. Once we start talking
      about those issues, I don't see how to avoid it, though. Knowing that
      the type of heathenism Lissa represents thinks that some other type is
      tainted by Nazi associations (e.g.) IS the point of the exercise.

      As far as I could tell, we lost the folkish when they were prevented
      from launching attacks out of just about every topic that was brought
      up. I never kicked them off the list--they just closed their notebooks
      and left. I wish they had stayed.

      Manny Olds
    • michael cole
      ... It was for that reason that I liked the document so much. It did set forth some interesting premises. Ones that deserve a deaper study. I was checking
      Message 2 of 29 , Jan 12, 2007
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        >What if you view those as far infrared
        >and far ultraviolet where most stand in the visible part of the spectrum in
        >between? You don't end up far from Karls tectonic plate document

        It was for that reason that I liked the document so much. It did set forth some interesting premises. Ones that deserve a deaper study. I was checking My Docs, I thought I had saved it there, but it is gone. Karl can you shot me another copy?

        I guess that is where I luck out by geography as a new heathen. The Texas Asatru list I belong to is varied. We have folkish, we have Theod and (for lack of a better term) universalist. But we manage to get along. I guess it is because that above all we try and remember we are Texan and Heathen. I wish at times that we as heathens could all remember that, yes we approach heathenism from different views, but we are all at the end of the day the same.

        While I am rambling on (I seem to do more and more of that lately, guess my 31 years have caught up with me) can someone give me a good heathen calendar link? I have a couple, but the have some differences, I would like to look at a broader spectrum. Maybe eventually post my own online.

        By the way, to learn more of the runes, I have decided to make a set of my own. I have taken a huge branch of a tree that was felled (the trunk was burnt for yule) And from there I plan on cutting and shaping my own runes. I plan on making a journal about my project, about the reflections I get while making them and what I learn of each rune.

        Well, my fingers are hurting, so I guess this email is finished :-)

        Michael


        Hail to the Æsir!
        Hail to the Asyniur!
        Hail to the bounteous earth!
        Words and wisdom give to us noble twain,
        and healing hands while we live

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Lissa
        ... Do we cluster in the centre? I have no idea. I don t know most heathens, and since we have no clue how many there might be, I don t think anyone else does,
        Message 3 of 29 , Jan 12, 2007
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          on 01/12/2007 12:15 PM Doug Freyburger said the following:

          > The borders are cloudy and shift. The fact that most heathens are not
          > extremists means they eventually cluster in the center so there is a
          > ton of overlap.

          Do we cluster in the centre? I have no idea. I don't know most heathens,
          and since we have no clue how many there might be, I don't think anyone
          else does, either.

          So, I'm very suspicious of claims that "most heathens X", because X
          inevitably is something the speaker believes.

          > > The use of the term "universalist", btw, is not universal.
          >
          > It is in fact insulting. The fact that the folkish continue to use it
          > knowing it is insulting tells much about the problem.

          Insulting...perhaps, to some. I find it amusing. It is also useful,
          because anyone who uses it (with the possible exception of new folks who
          don't know better) is someone I don't wish to have anything to do with.

          > > That is a
          > > Volkish term for non-racist, non-tribal Asatruar, who normally just call
          > > themselves Asatruar or heathen. Occasionally one hears "progressive."
          >
          > The word "progressive" never worked right either. Various folks have
          > tried "religious", can I interest others in standardizing on that?

          No. I hate it. Being religious is not necessary to be heathen, as we
          know from the sagas. I understand thee temptation to come up with
          something that is the opposite of "cultural" or "political", but
          "religious" isn't it.

          I propose "heathen" or "Asatruar". That is, after all, what we are.
          Having to have a schism name is a sign of immaturity, insecurity and an
          admission of splinter status.

          > On Grimnir's Gate it is allowed to state that folkish is the only true kind
          > of Asatru and to bash the unis. This moderation policy qualifies the
          > gate as a ghetto for the folkish.
          >
          > On Asatru-U it is allowed to state that folkish is inherently racist and
          > to bash the folkish - Remember responses to my comments in the last
          > couple of months. This moderation policy qualifies the university as a
          > ghetto for the religious.

          Bullshit. The folkish have spent plenty of time bashing mainstream
          Asatruar here. And I've been told to shut up more than once for bashing
          the racists.

          I get really sick of perpetual victim crap. Reminds me of the Christian
          Fascists.

          Most of the folkish chose to leave because they were mortified at the
          thought of non-white, non-Germanic (whatever that means),
          non-heterosexual, non-male heathens, and shocked by the thought that
          such heathens might be acceptable to the gods and the vaettir.

          Be well,
          Lissa
          --

          Blindur er bóklaus maður.

          * Trans. Blind is a man without a book.

          Icelandic proverb, wikiquote
        • Lissa
          ... Quite so. ... I find the Folkish are tainted by racism. All of them. Only a sub-set are tainted by Nazism. Frankly, I think the Nazis are pretty laughable.
          Message 4 of 29 , Jan 12, 2007
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            on 01/12/2007 12:48 PM Manny Olds said the following:

            > It is hard to manage the discussion as neatly as you would like.

            Quite so.

            > If we are not talking about describing the differences between the
            > groups, I restrict slurs pretty stringently. Once we start talking
            > about those issues, I don't see how to avoid it, though. Knowing that
            > the type of heathenism Lissa represents thinks that some other type is
            > tainted by Nazi associations (e.g.) IS the point of the exercise.

            I find the Folkish are tainted by racism. All of them. Only a sub-set
            are tainted by Nazism. Frankly, I think the Nazis are pretty laughable.
            I've known a few. Loosers. I have an easier time taking the John
            Birchers seriously.

            I also admit that I take an extreme position, as far as I can tell,
            within heathenry. I don't think the Folkish are heathen, basically. A
            cultural club, perhaps, a political movement, well, if they are, they
            aren't very effective, but, as far as I can tell, they aren't much
            concerned with the gods.

            > As far as I could tell, we lost the folkish when they were prevented
            > from launching attacks out of just about every topic that was brought
            > up. I never kicked them off the list--they just closed their notebooks
            > and left. I wish they had stayed.

            Believe it or, I do, too. When they take their toys, and limit
            themselves to their own sandboxes, they eliminate the possibility of
            communication.

            And, I do so love a good argument.

            Be well,
            Lissa
            --

            Jokes were to communism what myths were to ancient Greece: anonymous,
            oral stories which both represented and shaped people's views and actions.

            Ben Lewis, "Hammer & Tickle," Prospect Magazine, May, 2006
          • Manny Olds
            ... First of all, could we please avoid dialling this up to 11? Thank you. As things stand, how do we proceed? Should we explicitly limit the scope of the
            Message 5 of 29 , Jan 12, 2007
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              On 1/12/07, Lissa <qibhom@...> wrote:
              > > The word "progressive" never worked right either. Various folks have
              > > tried "religious", can I interest others in standardizing on that?
              >
              > No. I hate it. Being religious is not necessary to be heathen, as we
              > know from the sagas. I understand thee temptation to come up with
              > something that is the opposite of "cultural" or "political", but
              > "religious" isn't it.
              >
              > I propose "heathen" or "Asatruar". That is, after all, what we are.
              > Having to have a schism name is a sign of immaturity, insecurity and an
              > admission of splinter status.
              >
              > > On Grimnir's Gate it is allowed to state that folkish is the only true kind
              > > of Asatru and to bash the unis. This moderation policy qualifies the
              > > gate as a ghetto for the folkish.
              > >
              > > On Asatru-U it is allowed to state that folkish is inherently racist and
              > > to bash the folkish - Remember responses to my comments in the last
              > > couple of months. This moderation policy qualifies the university as a
              > > ghetto for the religious.
              >
              > Bullshit. The folkish have spent plenty of time bashing mainstream
              > Asatruar here. And I've been told to shut up more than once for bashing
              > the racists.
              >
              > I get really sick of perpetual victim crap. Reminds me of the Christian
              > Fascists.
              >
              > Most of the folkish chose to leave because they were mortified at the
              > thought of non-white, non-Germanic (whatever that means),
              > non-heterosexual, non-male heathens, and shocked by the thought that
              > such heathens might be acceptable to the gods and the vaettir.

              First of all, could we please avoid dialling this up to 11? Thank you.

              As things stand, how do we proceed? Should we explicitly limit the
              scope of the endeavor to ... what? Should we try to describe regions
              of the heathen lanscape we see only at a distance? Any suggestions
              from the newer people who have been using the existing course?

              Manny Olds
            • Doug Freyburger
              ... Simple in principle can be impossible in practive. Here s a shovel and pick. Please move Pike s Peak 6 meters south. ... When folks think they have the
              Message 6 of 29 , Jan 13, 2007
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                Manny Olds wrote:
                > Doug Freyburger wrote:
                >
                > > On Grimnir's Gate it is allowed to state that folkish is the only true kind
                > > of Asatru and to bash the unis. This moderation policy qualifies the
                > > gate as a ghetto for the folkish.
                >
                > > On Asatru-U it is allowed to state that folkish is inherently racist and
                > > to bash the folkish - Remember responses to my comments in the last
                > > couple of months. This moderation policy qualifies the university as a
                > > ghetto for the religious.
                >
                > > Quite simple how it works that way.
                >
                > It is hard to manage the discussion as neatly as you would like.

                Simple in principle can be impossible in practive. Here's a shovel
                and pick. Please move Pike's Peak 6 meters south.

                > As far as I could tell, we lost the folkish when they were prevented
                > from launching attacks out of just about every topic that was brought
                > up.

                When folks think they have the only right way they try to take over.
                Now where have I heard that one before. Anyways, some among the
                folkish take that approach. It is not to be tolerated outside of
                their own ghetto lists.

                > I never kicked them off the list--they just closed their notebooks
                > and left. I wish they had stayed.

                But there do exist fora where they get along. Does anyone know how that
                has been acheived?

                Lissa wrote:
                > Doug Freyburger wrote:
                >
                > > The borders are cloudy and shift. The fact that most heathens are not
                > > extremists means they eventually cluster in the center so there is a
                > > ton of overlap.
                >
                > Do we cluster in the centre? I have no idea. I don't know most heathens,
                > and since we have no clue how many there might be, I don't think anyone
                > else does, either.

                Assumption - Trends among those observed are assumed to continue among
                those not observed unless growth in the population of observed changes
                significantly as new data points arrive by observing new subjects.

                This is clearly an assumption you don't hold. I won't argue that point
                with you. The more heathens I've corresponded with, met, read their
                writings, the more the number has grown without effecting whatever trends
                I have noticed. Thus it is isn't relevant that I don't even know how many
                heathens exist, so long as the trend continues as I encounter new ones I
                will continue to assert the trend.

                > > > That is a
                > > > Volkish term for non-racist, non-tribal Asatruar, who normally just call
                > > > themselves Asatruar or heathen. Occasionally one hears "progressive."
                >
                > > The word "progressive" never worked right either. Various folks have
                > > tried "religious", can I interest others in standardizing on that?
                >
                > No. I hate it. Being religious is not necessary to be heathen, as we
                > know from the sagas. I understand thee temptation to come up with
                > something that is the opposite of "cultural" or "political", but
                > "religious" isn't it.

                Over the years I met enough practicing heathens who are atheists who
                are not folkish that I get the point.

                > I propose "heathen" or "Asatruar". That is, after all, what we are.

                It suffers from arrogance. Too much like those extreme folkish who say
                that if you're not folkish you're not Asatru.

                > Having to have a schism name is a sign of immaturity, insecurity and an
                > admission of splinter status.

                We're not going to make that particular disagreement go away by failing
                to give handles to the sides. Even the Catholics don't just call themselves
                "Christian". And it's amusing that what they did was take the word
                "universal", look through a bunch of dead languages for words that meant
                the same thing until they found one easy to pronounce, and picked that
                one.

                The Catholic example is entertaining that way. It's like how I describe
                the word Asatru. <Loosely translated, Asatru means religion. We who follow
                the Aesir could hardly call ourselves "religion" though. So we looked back
                through old languages and pick the Old Norse equivalent.> The explanation
                lacks some points of technical accuracy but it isn't a bad back of the
                envelope first order approximation.

                This does suggest a way to go about selecting a handle. Folkish comes
                from the German volk for people and cognates in othter Germanic
                languages. Maybe we should pick an Old Norse word for rebuilder or
                practitioner or colonist or foster/adopter?

                > Most of the folkish chose to leave ...

                Ah, history from before I subscribed. What I see is the postings in the
                last year. When I subscribed I only went back a few months.

                Manny Olds wrote:
                >
                > As things stand, how do we proceed? Should we explicitly limit the
                > scope of the endeavor to ... what? Should we try to describe regions
                > of the heathen lanscape we see only at a distance? Any suggestions
                > from the newer people who have been using the existing course?

                I don't mind asking Karl to donate his document, and folks disagreeing
                with it don't bother me.
              • Karl Donaldsson
                ... Pat. I considered it to be a rite of passage in on-line heathen lists to be added to his kill file for at least some period of time. ... One of the
                Message 7 of 29 , Jan 13, 2007
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                  Doug Freyburger spake:

                  > Crossing over the fence and hanging out with the milder ones among those
                  > on the other side of it takes effort and thick skin. Even among the folks
                  > on this list, who could stomach the company of that nurse guy in Georgia
                  > who was always screaming at people calling them nazis for not being as
                  > progressive as he was? This message has spent an hour in my drafts
                  > folder and I've still drawn a blank on his name. Crap. Of course I will
                  > remember as soon as I hit send ...

                  Pat. I considered it to be a rite of passage in on-line heathen lists to
                  be added to his kill file for at least some period of time.

                  > Karl Donaldsson wrote:
                  >>
                  >> I'm curious to
                  >> know what the sticking point was, but but on curious enough to join GG.
                  >> It was a little too ... well, folkish for me.
                  >
                  > It's too folkish for me to participate at times. I chose to have a thick
                  > skin
                  > so that I can get their points. Over the years I've built an appreciation
                  > for
                  > what folkish should be so I can ignore the rough edges and the couple of
                  > extremists. I figure if I am not there at all then I can have no
                  > influence on
                  > what it actually becomes while if I am there I might be able to steer some
                  > in the direction I think it should go.

                  One of the reasons I still remain on OM. Heathenry is what I make it, as
                  much as anyone else. If not me, then who? If not now, then when?


                  Frith upon your house
                  Karl Donaldsson
                  <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
                  hfg@... http://hfg.ravenbanner.com
                  Check out the Happy Fat Guy Pottery Studio!
                  <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
                  Member of the Kindred of Ravenswood
                  Zionsville, Indiana USA
                  http://www.iquest.net/~chaviland/Rindex.html
                  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                  To Vali! To Vengeance! To Honor! To Kin!
                  _______________________________________________
                  "Would you know more, or what?"
                  Get Asatru education at http://www.asatru-u.org
                • collaich1
                  Greetings, What a good idea, I thoroughly endorse it, and it would help me amazingly. collaich1 ... From: michael cole To:
                  Message 8 of 29 , Jan 13, 2007
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                    Greetings,

                    What a good idea, I thoroughly endorse it, and it would help me amazingly.

                    collaich1


                    ----- Original Message ----
                    From: michael cole <michael5160@...>
                    To: Asatru-U@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Thursday, 11 January, 2007 7:43:06 AM
                    Subject: Re: [Asatru-U] Re: Up Date of Asatru-U Web Page

                    I had read that, the last time it came up for discussion. I actually got into a bit of trouble because I had wondered if there were any expansions done on the documanet, and someone thought I was trying to plagarize it. (I was merely wondering if Karl had expanded on it later, I still hope he might, there are many interesting points in it).

                    What I am wondering is if we could maybe create links to writings, giving us a insight to the branches of asatru. For instance a lot of what i know of Theod comes from a gentleman named Rich Culver. We are on a Texas list together and he has taken the time to direct me to some nice people and has a great website with some well thought out writings on it.

                    Kind of a this is who we are and are not, directly from the horses mouth. And not so much from someone elses.

                    I think that this part of heathenry is the most confusing at times to a newbie, at least from my standpoint. A lot of what I read out there is usually confusing without a idea of that fundamental view point on it.

                    A thought provoking post as usual, Doug. Thanks!

                    Michael





                    Doug Freyburger <dfreybur@yahoo. com> wrote:
                    Karl Donaldsson wrote:
                    > michael cole spake:
                    >
                    > > As a thought, one of the hardest things was to differentiate the
                    > > different branches (i.e theod, universalist, folkish or tribal). Maybe
                    > > some information on that would be helpful.
                    >
                    > I have an article there which has an old link that needs to be updated:
                    >
                    > "The Tectonic Plates of Asatru
                    > by Karl Donaldsson

                    It was recently discussed on the Grimnir's Gate list. The folkish on that
                    list think it is out of date and in need of update. I was far from convinced
                    as I followed that discussion. The main point seems to have been that
                    the milder among the folkish have gradually taken over and that has
                    pushed that school further towards whatever the mainstream might be.

                    It appears that there are now folkish kindreds who eject neo-Nazis on
                    detection. There was no specific statement that such is now a
                    universally held policy among folkish kindreds. Remembering the events
                    of 1993 on Granquist's Asatru-L@Valkyrie. com list I remain pretty
                    fussy about that point. Even one folkish kindred that does not eject
                    them on detection and the folkish movement can never be whatever
                    mainstream might mean IMO.

                    While I am glad to see some progress between 1993 and now, a
                    complete retraction has never happened. I don't ever expect one to
                    happen but if it became the policy of all folkish kindreds without
                    exception to eject neos on detection I would consider the issue to be
                    resolved.

                    > By now, you will have realized that there are a number of conflicting
                    > "theological" positions that fall under the Asatru umbrella. While
                    > one or another may be right for you, it probably won't be right for
                    > everyone. This essay is a subjective attempt to identify and
                    > categorize some of these positions. Even though it is subjective, it
                    > provides an excellent overview of the different attitudes held by
                    > many Heathens. You are likely to find it a helpful source of
                    > information even if you don't agree with the author on every point."
                    >
                    > I have the article at:
                    >
                    > http://hfg.ravenban ner.com/faults. pdf
                    > It might be useful to you; it might not be.

                    My comment to Michael - The fact that folks on Grimnir's Gate disagreed
                    with point in the document doesn't mean they are right and Karl is
                    wrong. Both this list and that one are partisan in stance when it comes
                    to the topic. There folks are expected to be pro-folkish here folks are
                    expected to be pro-religious as matters of list policy. The fact that I'm
                    on both lists doesn't mean I hold the opinions of both, it means I'm
                    able to handle both environments.

                    Hail Asgard!
                    Doug Freyburger moderator soc.religion. asatru

                    Hail to the Æsir!
                    Hail to the Asyniur!
                    Hail to the bounteous earth!
                    Words and wisdom give to us noble twain,
                    and healing hands while we live

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                    Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Karl Donaldsson
                    ... Wow, thanks! ... It s right here: http://hfg.ravenbanner.com/faults.pdf Frith upon your house Karl Donaldsson
                    Message 9 of 29 , Jan 13, 2007
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                      michael cole spake:
                      >
                      >
                      >>What if you view those as far infrared
                      >>and far ultraviolet where most stand in the visible part of the spectrum
                      >> in
                      >>between? You don't end up far from Karls tectonic plate document
                      >
                      > It was for that reason that I liked the document so much.

                      Wow, thanks!

                      > It did set
                      > forth some interesting premises. Ones that deserve a deaper study. I
                      > was checking My Docs, I thought I had saved it there, but it is gone.
                      > Karl can you shot me another copy?

                      It's right here:

                      http://hfg.ravenbanner.com/faults.pdf


                      Frith upon your house
                      Karl Donaldsson
                      <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
                      hfg@... http://hfg.ravenbanner.com
                      Check out the Happy Fat Guy Pottery Studio!
                      <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
                      Member of the Kindred of Ravenswood
                      Zionsville, Indiana USA
                      http://www.iquest.net/~chaviland/Rindex.html
                      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                      To Vali! To Vengeance! To Honor! To Kin!
                      _______________________________________________
                      "Would you know more, or what?"
                      Get Asatru education at http://www.asatru-u.org
                    • Audrey C.
                      Time for me to get my two cents in: I am Audrey, a 23 yr old female in Washington State, that has previously been quiet in this forum, content to read and
                      Message 10 of 29 , Jan 13, 2007
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                        Time for me to get my two cents in:
                        I am Audrey, a 23 yr old female in Washington State, that has previously been quiet in this forum, content to read and learn from others. I have been studying asatru for two years - I was drawn by my ancestry (as I assume many people in this religion are - at least those few i have met). I believe that those who are not of German/Norse/Scandinavian descent should not be turned away - rather, I think that they should be counselled to look into the gods/godesses of their ancestors.Given enough time and introspection, if the person still feels genuinely drawn to Asatru, I believe that they should be welcomed into the fold. Who are we to question the gods - just like the christian god, Odin chooses his warriors, no matter what the color of their skin or ancestry.Anyone else want to share their outlook on this issue?

                        Wassail!
                        Audrey


                        ---------------------------------
                        Have a burning question? Go to Yahoo! Answers and get answers from real people who know.

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Lissa
                        on 01/13/2007 05:15 PM Doug Freyburger said the following: ... May I suggest you look into the etymology of the word nice? It may suggest some answers. ...
                        Message 11 of 29 , Jan 13, 2007
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                          on 01/13/2007 05:15 PM Doug Freyburger said the following:
                          Manny wrote:
                          > > I never kicked them off the list--they just closed their notebooks
                          > > and left. I wish they had stayed.
                          >
                          > But there do exist fora where they get along. Does anyone know how that
                          > has been acheived?

                          May I suggest you look into the etymology of the word "nice?" It may
                          suggest some answers.

                          > Lissa wrote:
                          > > Doug Freyburger wrote:
                          > >
                          > > > The borders are cloudy and shift. The fact that most heathens are not
                          > > > extremists means they eventually cluster in the center so there is a
                          > > > ton of overlap.
                          > >
                          > > Do we cluster in the centre? I have no idea. I don't know most heathens,
                          > > and since we have no clue how many there might be, I don't think anyone
                          > > else does, either.
                          >
                          > Assumption - Trends among those observed are assumed to continue among
                          > those not observed unless growth in the population of observed changes
                          > significantly as new data points arrive by observing new subjects.

                          In other words, what you have observed is representative of all
                          heathens, balanced and thoughtful. What other heathens might observe is
                          subject to observer or sample bias.

                          Ok...got it. You have the truth. The heathens I know are weird and
                          unusual. No problem. I like being a heretic.

                          But, I still think you don't know any more than I do.

                          > This is clearly an assumption you don't hold.

                          Assumption? No, I don't hold it. I tend to go with statistical sample
                          size, hypothesis, testing and other scientific methods. Assumptions are
                          something I try to hunt, because they skew interpretation of data.

                          > I won't argue that point
                          > with you. The more heathens I've corresponded with, met, read their
                          > writings, the more the number has grown without effecting whatever trends
                          > I have noticed. Thus it is isn't relevant that I don't even know how many
                          > heathens exist, so long as the trend continues as I encounter new ones I
                          > will continue to assert the trend.

                          Please don't let me hold you back from using more subjective criteria.
                          I'm not a gythia, wouldn't dream of telling someone else what they
                          should do. Nice to know what you are basing your statements on.

                          > > I propose "heathen" or "Asatruar". That is, after all, what we are.
                          >
                          > It suffers from arrogance. Too much like those extreme folkish who say
                          > that if you're not folkish you're not Asatru.

                          Arrogance, if you have something to back it, is a heathen virtue.

                          Yes, in this case, I do have the truth. Politics makes a crappy
                          religion. So does genetics. And it isn't just the extreme Volkish who've
                          questioned how someone like me could be heathen. Just exactly what "like
                          me" is varies.

                          Prove me wrong. Seriously.

                          > > Having to have a schism name is a sign of immaturity, insecurity and an
                          > > admission of splinter status.
                          >
                          > We're not going to make that particular disagreement go away by failing
                          > to give handles to the sides. Even the Catholics don't just call themselves
                          > "Christian". And it's amusing that what they did was take the word
                          > "universal", look through a bunch of dead languages for words that meant
                          > the same thing until they found one easy to pronounce, and picked that
                          > one.

                          We aren't going to make it go away by naming it, cuddling it and stating
                          that there is a schism, either. I'd rather focus on the gods and the
                          vaettir than a bunch of racist loosers. I'm sure they'd rather focus on
                          anything besides one gay Lokean.

                          Paying them any heed isn't going to change anything.

                          > > Most of the folkish chose to leave ...
                          >
                          > Ah, history from before I subscribed. What I see is the postings in the
                          > last year. When I subscribed I only went back a few months.

                          And, you don't need to read archives, or ask anyone what happened before
                          you got here, because you already know what happened. We radical Uni
                          types threw the poor, innocent Folk out.

                          I'm the only extreme anti-folkish person on this list. And I'm just not
                          that powerful. Hell, I'm not even *that* annoying. I'd guess that I was
                          moderated as much as they were. Possibly more.

                          So, they chose to leave, either because one person scared them off
                          (doubtful), or because Manny's memory is accurate.

                          Be well,
                          Lissa


                          --

                          ...the age will demand that analysis, criticism, evaluation, and satire
                          yield to celebration, charm, and niceness.

                          Paul Fussell, _Wartime_, discussing WWII
                        • Kevin
                          His moniker is HeimdallR and his s.o. was Vidharr. Have not seen or heard from them since the fiasco of merging groups with Susan Grinquist (sp) and that was
                          Message 12 of 29 , Jan 14, 2007
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                            His moniker is HeimdallR and his s.o. was Vidharr. Have not seen or
                            heard from them since the fiasco of merging groups with Susan Grinquist
                            (sp) and that was almost nine years ago.

                            As to hammer signs the only sign in primary texts was Thorr passing the
                            hammer over his goats' skins after eating them and over the ship at
                            Balders' funeral though iirc, that was in only one description of it.

                            Monikers - mine was my CB handle in the 70's and almost twenty years
                            later I learn that it was a good description of the properties of my
                            patron, Wod'n. It is the name of my business as well.

                            Wes thu hal

                            Night Winds

                            Karl Donaldsson wrote:
                            > Doug Freyburger spake:
                            >
                            >
                            >> Crossing over the fence and hanging out with the milder ones among those
                            >> on the other side of it takes effort and thick skin. Even among the folks
                            >> on this list, who could stomach the company of that nurse guy in Georgia
                            >> who was always screaming at people calling them nazis for not being as
                            >> progressive as he was? This message has spent an hour in my drafts
                            >> folder and I've still drawn a blank on his name. Crap. Of course I will
                            >> remember as soon as I hit send ...
                            >>
                            >
                            > Pat. I considered it to be a rite of passage in on-line heathen lists to
                            > be added to his kill file for at least some period of time.
                            >
                            >
                            >> Karl Donaldsson wrote:
                            >>
                            >>> I'm curious to
                            >>> know what the sticking point was, but but on curious enough to join GG.
                            >>> It was a little too ... well, folkish for me.
                            >>>
                            >> It's too folkish for me to participate at times. I chose to have a thick
                            >> skin
                            >> so that I can get their points. Over the years I've built an appreciation
                            >> for
                            >> what folkish should be so I can ignore the rough edges and the couple of
                            >> extremists. I figure if I am not there at all then I can have no
                            >> influence on
                            >> what it actually becomes while if I am there I might be able to steer some
                            >> in the direction I think it should go.
                            >>
                            >
                            > One of the reasons I still remain on OM. Heathenry is what I make it, as
                            > much as anyone else. If not me, then who? If not now, then when?
                            >
                            >
                            > Frith upon your house
                            > Karl Donaldsson
                            > <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
                            > hfg@... http://hfg.ravenbanner.com
                            > Check out the Happy Fat Guy Pottery Studio!
                            > <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
                            > Member of the Kindred of Ravenswood
                            > Zionsville, Indiana USA
                            > http://www.iquest.net/~chaviland/Rindex.html
                            > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                            > To Vali! To Vengeance! To Honor! To Kin!
                            > _______________________________________________
                            > "Would you know more, or what?"
                            > Get Asatru education at http://www.asatru-u.org
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >



                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • clifford knutson
                            Hey I am both German and Norwegain I think too that people should follow ther God/ess of thier blood line but you can not tell people what who they cant and
                            Message 13 of 29 , Jan 14, 2007
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                              Hey I am both German and Norwegain I think too that people should follow ther God/ess of thier blood line but you can not tell people what who they cant and cannot worship what they want to belive and follow is up to them and hello Audrey I too am from Washington any way thats is my two cents.
                              Cliff

                              "Audrey C." <audreydc1983@...> wrote:
                              Time for me to get my two cents in:
                              I am Audrey, a 23 yr old female in Washington State, that has previously been quiet in this forum, content to read and learn from others. I have been studying asatru for two years - I was drawn by my ancestry (as I assume many people in this religion are - at least those few i have met). I believe that those who are not of German/Norse/Scandinavian descent should not be turned away - rather, I think that they should be counselled to look into the gods/godesses of their ancestors.Given enough time and introspection, if the person still feels genuinely drawn to Asatru, I believe that they should be welcomed into the fold. Who are we to question the gods - just like the christian god, Odin chooses his warriors, no matter what the color of their skin or ancestry.Anyone else want to share their outlook on this issue?

                              Wassail!
                              Audrey

                              ---------------------------------
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                            • Ratatask Thora
                              Since the question was asked I ll answer, though I m hoping this conversation (of a very volatile subject) will be able to be frithful. To be honest, I don t
                              Message 14 of 29 , Jan 14, 2007
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                                Since the question was asked I'll answer, though I'm hoping this conversation (of a very volatile subject) will be able to be frithful.

                                To be honest, I don't really understand the concept of people sticking within their "blood line" when it comes to religions that died out so long ago that pretty much no one has accurate geneology going back that far. Just because someone's great-great-great grandparents lived in the northern parts of Europe, doesn't mean that those people worshipped and practiced in the way that we today call Asatru. In fact, they were probably Christian. If you go back far enough to find ancestors that actually practiced the "old religion", there really is no way to say that the geneology is accurate. It's quite possible that somewhere back in your far distant ancestry, your family moved north from an entirely different region of the world, or took spouses from different regions of the world. Since we have no way of knowing our far distant ancestry for absolute certain, the concept that people can better connect to the gods of their personal ancestors seems completely irrelevant to
                                me. Escpecially for Americans whose families have been here long enough to have quite possibly mixed with numerous people of various other ancestries.

                                So while I think the idea of sticking with the beliefs of your own personal ancestors is a nice one, I don't see it as being a reasonable one in the current day.

                                I also don't believe that I have any idea why my gods would call to a particular person and I have no desire to second-guess the people they call to. If someone of an obviously different background (though I find that a ridiculous statement as well since I have a friend who is half-German and half-Korean who appears to be 100% Korean until you hear her German accent) feels called to by our gods, then I don't feel that it's my place to question that calling.

                                I also want to add that those of us currently living in the United States are living in a culture that is strongly influenced by Norse societal values. Because of that, I believe that Asatru is appealing to many people who find those values to be worthwhile. I also believe that Asatru feels comfortable and familiar to many people who grew up in this society with these values. There is very little Asian (for example) influences in our culture, so someone who is Asian in their bloodline who grew up fully integrated in our culture may feel like Asian religions are completely foriegn to them.

                                Keep in mind that the Norse often had foster or step-parents who had as much influence over their lives, values and traditions as their own blood-line family did. In some cases, we even hear of people being able to contact step-parents beyond the grave. In this same way, we can see people from other cultures who have moved to our culture and have been fully integrated into our culture as having been adopted or fostered in our culture. Thus they have as much right to access our Nordic ancestors as those with a Norse blood-line.

                                This holds true of anyone living in most of nothern and western Europe for that matter.

                                That's my outlook on this issue anyway.
                                Ratatask

                                clifford knutson <olav_98550@...> wrote:
                                Hey I am both German and Norwegain I think too that people should follow ther God/ess of thier blood line but you can not tell people what who they cant and cannot worship what they want to belive and follow is up to them and hello Audrey I too am from Washington any way thats is my two cents.
                                Cliff

                                "Audrey C." <audreydc1983@...> wrote:
                                Time for me to get my two cents in:
                                I am Audrey, a 23 yr old female in Washington State, that has previously been quiet in this forum, content to read and learn from others. I have been studying asatru for two years - I was drawn by my ancestry (as I assume many people in this religion are - at least those few i have met). I believe that those who are not of German/Norse/Scandinavian descent should not be turned away - rather, I think that they should be counselled to look into the gods/godesses of their ancestors.Given enough time and introspection, if the person still feels genuinely drawn to Asatru, I believe that they should be welcomed into the fold. Who are we to question the gods - just like the christian god, Odin chooses his warriors, no matter what the color of their skin or ancestry.Anyone else want to share their outlook on this issue?

                                Wassail!
                                Audrey


                                .





                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Karl Donaldsson
                                ... Don t get Pat confused with Richard Griffiths, aka HeimdallR. Pat was a different person, as far as I know, but I ve never met either of them. Pat is from
                                Message 15 of 29 , Jan 14, 2007
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                                  Kevin spake:
                                  > His moniker is HeimdallR and his s.o. was Vidharr. Have not seen or
                                  > heard from them since the fiasco of merging groups with Susan Grinquist
                                  > (sp) and that was almost nine years ago.

                                  Don't get Pat confused with Richard Griffiths, aka HeimdallR. Pat was a
                                  different person, as far as I know, but I've never met either of them.
                                  Pat is from Florida, and Richard is from Atlanta GA.


                                  Frith upon your house
                                  Karl Donaldsson
                                  <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
                                  hfg@... http://hfg.ravenbanner.com
                                  Check out the Happy Fat Guy Pottery Studio!
                                  <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
                                  Member of the Kindred of Ravenswood
                                  Zionsville, Indiana USA
                                  http://www.iquest.net/~chaviland/Rindex.html
                                  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                                  To Vali! To Vengeance! To Honor! To Kin!
                                  _______________________________________________
                                  "Would you know more, or what?"
                                  Get Asatru education at http://www.asatru-u.org
                                • Jeff Peck
                                  ... And Pat, politically speaking, is fairly conservative, where Griffiths was about as far the other way as one can get. Last rumor I heard, from an ex-member
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Jan 15, 2007
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                                    Karl Donaldsson wrote:
                                    > Kevin spake:
                                    >
                                    >>His moniker is HeimdallR and his s.o. was Vidharr. Have not seen or
                                    >>heard from them since the fiasco of merging groups with Susan Grinquist
                                    >>(sp) and that was almost nine years ago.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Don't get Pat confused with Richard Griffiths, aka HeimdallR. Pat was a
                                    > different person, as far as I know, but I've never met either of them.
                                    > Pat is from Florida, and Richard is from Atlanta GA.
                                    >
                                    >


                                    And Pat, politically speaking, is fairly conservative, where
                                    Griffiths was about as far the other way as one can get. Last rumor I
                                    heard, from an ex-member of Forn Sid is that Griffiths has left
                                    heathenry entirely and become a Buddhist...
                                    Lyulf

                                    --
                                    lyulfr@... | Moderator AsaHuntR
                                    & Oregon Asatru Fellowship Lists
                                    O_A_F-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                    AsaHuntr-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                    | Here's my wisdom for your use, as I learned it when the moose
                                    and the Reindeer roamed where Paris roars tonight:-
                                    " There are Nine and Sixty ways of constructing tribal lays,
                                    And- every- single- one- of - them- is- right!!!" >R. Kipling
                                  • morazzini
                                    Lisa, You wrote: I also admit that I take an extreme position, as far as I can tell, within heathenry. I don t think the Folkish are heathen, basically. A
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Jul 13, 2007
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                                      Lisa,

                                      You wrote:

                                      "I also admit that I take an extreme position, as far as I can tell,
                                      within heathenry. I don't think the Folkish are heathen, basically. A
                                      cultural club, perhaps, a political movement, well, if they are, they
                                      aren't very effective, but, as far as I can tell, they aren't much
                                      concerned with the gods."

                                      Ummmmmmmm I think I love you! :::seriously::: It was great to see
                                      that I am not the only person who shares this belief and I do wish
                                      that more people who had strong feelings against the "Folkish" types
                                      would speak out.

                                      It was because of the "folk" that I left Asatru in 1998 (I actually
                                      went into and got my BA and MA in Religous Studies, spiritually I
                                      went into a broad study of European Shamanism) and why I have
                                      struggled on and off these years with a huge attachment to Odhinn,
                                      Viking history-culture-religions, a deep Love for the Gods and
                                      Goddesses of old, but have always felt ostricised from Asatru because
                                      I just don't want to be anywhere near the "folk." This is not meant
                                      to start a war here obviously, I'm sure they don't like me all that
                                      much either.

                                      Recently (and there have been occasional extended stretches
                                      inbetween), I have decided to try and be a bit stubborn and stand by
                                      what I love and believe in, but those old feelings of just not liking
                                      the "folk" are always with me. My experiences with their racism
                                      (which they mask as an interest in "ancestry"), their borderline if
                                      not flat out neo-Nazism, leaves me very unhappy with Asatru, but
                                      maybe its time I took some of that power away from them that i give
                                      them and just enjoy being myself.

                                      Your post here really gave me some comfort that this Faith is
                                      attracting and cultivating some more open minded and educated people.

                                      Thank You!

                                      Peace--
                                      Dario


                                      --- In Asatru-U@yahoogroups.com, Lissa <qibhom@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > on 01/12/2007 12:48 PM Manny Olds said the following:
                                      >
                                      > > It is hard to manage the discussion as neatly as you would like.
                                      >
                                      > Quite so.
                                      >
                                      > > If we are not talking about describing the differences between the
                                      > > groups, I restrict slurs pretty stringently. Once we start talking
                                      > > about those issues, I don't see how to avoid it, though. Knowing
                                      that
                                      > > the type of heathenism Lissa represents thinks that some other
                                      type is
                                      > > tainted by Nazi associations (e.g.) IS the point of the exercise.
                                      >
                                      > I find the Folkish are tainted by racism. All of them. Only a sub-
                                      set
                                      > are tainted by Nazism. Frankly, I think the Nazis are pretty
                                      laughable.
                                      > I've known a few. Loosers. I have an easier time taking the John
                                      > Birchers seriously.
                                      >
                                      > I also admit that I take an extreme position, as far as I can tell,
                                      > within heathenry. I don't think the Folkish are heathen, basically.
                                      A
                                      > cultural club, perhaps, a political movement, well, if they are,
                                      they
                                      > aren't very effective, but, as far as I can tell, they aren't much
                                      > concerned with the gods.
                                      >
                                      > > As far as I could tell, we lost the folkish when they were
                                      prevented
                                      > > from launching attacks out of just about every topic that was
                                      brought
                                      > > up. I never kicked them off the list--they just closed their
                                      notebooks
                                      > > and left. I wish they had stayed.
                                      >
                                      > Believe it or, I do, too. When they take their toys, and limit
                                      > themselves to their own sandboxes, they eliminate the possibility
                                      of
                                      > communication.
                                      >
                                      > And, I do so love a good argument.
                                      >
                                      > Be well,
                                      > Lissa
                                      > --
                                      >
                                      > Jokes were to communism what myths were to ancient Greece:
                                      anonymous,
                                      > oral stories which both represented and shaped people's views and
                                      actions.
                                      >
                                      > Ben Lewis, "Hammer & Tickle," Prospect Magazine, May, 2006
                                      >
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