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Up Date of Asatru-U Web Page

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  • M. Spence Cocherl
    Heil to the Folk, I was just wondering if the Asatru-U web page was going to be updated? According to the site it has not been updated since 2001. Has the
    Message 1 of 29 , Jan 6, 2007
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      Heil to the Folk,

      I was just wondering if the Asatru-U web page was going to be updated?
      According to the site it has not been updated since 2001. Has the
      information been moved to another site?

      In Firth,

      Spence
    • michael cole
      I had been wondering that myself. The info it has is great, but it would be good to find some additional sources. M. Spence Cocherl
      Message 2 of 29 , Jan 7, 2007
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        I had been wondering that myself. The info it has is great, but it would be good to find some additional sources.

        "M. Spence Cocherl" <marac9000@...> wrote: Heil to the Folk,

        I was just wondering if the Asatru-U web page was going to be updated?
        According to the site it has not been updated since 2001. Has the
        information been moved to another site?

        In Firth,

        Spence






        Hail to the Æsir!
        Hail to the Asyniur!
        Hail to the bounteous earth!
        Words and wisdom give to us noble twain,
        and healing hands while we live

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Manny Olds
        ... When you find them, post the links to the group so we can kick them around. In general, do you find the sections of the course to be relevant still? MAO
        Message 3 of 29 , Jan 7, 2007
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          On 1/7/07, michael cole <michael5160@...> wrote:
          > I had been wondering that myself. The info it has is great, but it would be good to find some additional sources.


          When you find them, post the links to the group so we can kick them
          around. In general, do you find the sections of the course to be
          relevant still?

          MAO
        • michael cole
          More than relevent. The course material was very helpful and allowed me enough information to get a good grasp of the basics, But not to mauch to discourage
          Message 4 of 29 , Jan 9, 2007
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            More than relevent. The course material was very helpful and allowed me enough information to get a good grasp of the basics, But not to mauch to discourage me by overwhelming me.

            As far as links, when come across some, I will send them along for sure. It is just hard to weed out the bad from good websites.

            As a thought, one of the hardest things was to differentiate the different branches (i.e theod, universalist, folkish or tribal). Maybe some information on that would be helpful.

            Manny Olds <oldsma@...> wrote:
            On 1/7/07, michael cole <michael5160@...> wrote:
            > I had been wondering that myself. The info it has is great, but it would be good to find some additional sources.

            When you find them, post the links to the group so we can kick them
            around. In general, do you find the sections of the course to be
            relevant still?

            MAO





            Hail to the Æsir!
            Hail to the Asyniur!
            Hail to the bounteous earth!
            Words and wisdom give to us noble twain,
            and healing hands while we live

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Ratatask Thora
            ... I ve seen and emailed a few link updates to this group. No one ever responded and the links didn t get updated. Is there another place to send link
            Message 5 of 29 , Jan 9, 2007
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              On 1/7/07, michael cole <michael5160@...> wrote:
              > > I had been wondering that myself. The info it has is great, but it would be good to find some additional sources.

              Manny Olds <oldsma@...> wrote:

              > When you find them, post the links to the group so we can kick them around. In general, do you find the sections of the course to be relevant still?

              I've seen and emailed a few link updates to this group. No one ever responded and the links didn't get updated. Is there another place to send link updates?

              I find Asatru-U to still be a great resource for people searching for more info on Asatru. I appreciate all the work that has gone into it. Thank you to all involved.

              Ratatask


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Karl Donaldsson
              ... I have an article there which has an old link that needs to be updated: The Tectonic Plates of Asatru by Karl Donaldsson By now, you will have realized
              Message 6 of 29 , Jan 9, 2007
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                michael cole spake:

                > As a thought, one of the hardest things was to differentiate the
                > different branches (i.e theod, universalist, folkish or tribal). Maybe
                > some information on that would be helpful.

                I have an article there which has an old link that needs to be updated:

                "The Tectonic Plates of Asatru
                by Karl Donaldsson

                By now, you will have realized that there are a number of conflicting
                "theological" positions that fall under the Asatru umbrella. While
                one or another may be right for you, it probably won't be right for
                everyone. This essay is a subjective attempt to identify and
                categorize some of these positions. Even though it is subjective, it
                provides an excellent overview of the different attitudes held by
                many Heathens. You are likely to find it a helpful source of
                information even if you don't agree with the author on every point."

                I have the article at:

                http://hfg.ravenbanner.com/faults.pdf
                It might be useful to you; it might not be.


                “Like a man traveling in foggy weather, those at some distance before him
                on the road he sees wrapped up in the fog, as well as those behind him,
                and also the people in the fields on each side, but near him all appears
                clear, though in truth he is as much in the fog as any of them.”
                -- Benjamin Franklin



                Frith upon your house
                Karl Donaldsson
                <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
                hfg@... http://hfg.ravenbanner.com
                Check out the Happy Fat Guy Pottery Studio!
                <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
                Member of the Kindred of Ravenswood
                Zionsville, Indiana USA
                http://www.iquest.net/~chaviland/Rindex.html
                ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                To Vali! To Vengeance! To Honor! To Kin!
                _______________________________________________
                "Would you know more, or what?"
                Get Asatru education at http://www.asatru-u.org
              • Lissa
                Michael, ... Someone would have to create it before we link to it. The difficulties lie in the fuzziness of the lines. I know where *I* draw them, but that is
                Message 7 of 29 , Jan 9, 2007
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                  Michael,

                  > As a thought, one of the hardest things was to differentiate the
                  > different branches (i.e theod, universalist, folkish or tribal). Maybe
                  > some information on that would be helpful.

                  Someone would have to create it before we link to it. The difficulties
                  lie in the fuzziness of the lines. I know where *I* draw them, but that
                  is in a totally different place than others draw them.

                  The use of the term "universalist", btw, is not universal. That is a
                  Volkish term for non-racist, non-tribal Asatruar, who normally just call
                  themselves Asatruar or heathen. Occasionally one hears "progressive."

                  Some distinguish between tribal and folkish, some don't. There are a
                  bunch of different kinds of Theodish now. Some people distinguish
                  between volkish and folkish, some don't.

                  The question is interesting, difficult to research, carries a lot of
                  (recent) historical baggage, is overly emotional and usually avoided in
                  polite conversation.

                  Be well,
                  Lissa
                  --

                  ...the age will demand that analysis, criticism, evaluation, and satire
                  yield to celebration, charm, and niceness.

                  Paul Fussell, _Wartime_, discussing WWII
                • Doug Freyburger
                  ... It was recently discussed on the Grimnir s Gate list. The folkish on that list think it is out of date and in need of update. I was far from convinced as
                  Message 8 of 29 , Jan 10, 2007
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                    Karl Donaldsson wrote:
                    > michael cole spake:
                    >
                    > > As a thought, one of the hardest things was to differentiate the
                    > > different branches (i.e theod, universalist, folkish or tribal). Maybe
                    > > some information on that would be helpful.
                    >
                    > I have an article there which has an old link that needs to be updated:
                    >
                    > "The Tectonic Plates of Asatru
                    > by Karl Donaldsson

                    It was recently discussed on the Grimnir's Gate list. The folkish on that
                    list think it is out of date and in need of update. I was far from convinced
                    as I followed that discussion. The main point seems to have been that
                    the milder among the folkish have gradually taken over and that has
                    pushed that school further towards whatever the mainstream might be.

                    It appears that there are now folkish kindreds who eject neo-Nazis on
                    detection. There was no specific statement that such is now a
                    universally held policy among folkish kindreds. Remembering the events
                    of 1993 on Granquist's Asatru-L@... list I remain pretty
                    fussy about that point. Even one folkish kindred that does not eject
                    them on detection and the folkish movement can never be whatever
                    mainstream might mean IMO.

                    While I am glad to see some progress between 1993 and now, a
                    complete retraction has never happened. I don't ever expect one to
                    happen but if it became the policy of all folkish kindreds without
                    exception to eject neos on detection I would consider the issue to be
                    resolved.

                    > By now, you will have realized that there are a number of conflicting
                    > "theological" positions that fall under the Asatru umbrella. While
                    > one or another may be right for you, it probably won't be right for
                    > everyone. This essay is a subjective attempt to identify and
                    > categorize some of these positions. Even though it is subjective, it
                    > provides an excellent overview of the different attitudes held by
                    > many Heathens. You are likely to find it a helpful source of
                    > information even if you don't agree with the author on every point."
                    >
                    > I have the article at:
                    >
                    > http://hfg.ravenbanner.com/faults.pdf
                    > It might be useful to you; it might not be.

                    My comment to Michael - The fact that folks on Grimnir's Gate disagreed
                    with point in the document doesn't mean they are right and Karl is
                    wrong. Both this list and that one are partisan in stance when it comes
                    to the topic. There folks are expected to be pro-folkish here folks are
                    expected to be pro-religious as matters of list policy. The fact that I'm
                    on both lists doesn't mean I hold the opinions of both, it means I'm
                    able to handle both environments.

                    Hail Asgard!
                    Doug Freyburger moderator soc.religion.asatru
                  • Manny Olds
                    This is all pointing at the roadblock we hit in adding more information to the site. We know that the types of heathen document needs to be next, but we
                    Message 9 of 29 , Jan 10, 2007
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                      This is all pointing at the roadblock we hit in adding more
                      information to the site.

                      We know that the "types of heathen" document needs to be next, but we
                      can't get the information to write it, and the landscape is changing
                      fast anyway.

                      We have also not been able to sustain any participation from members
                      of folkish or theodish groups. It's hard to capture how they see
                      themselves from the outside.

                      I'm not sure how to overcome these.

                      Manny Olds
                    • Karl Donaldsson
                      Howdy, Doug! ... Heh. I ve updated it once already in 2001 for Asaru-U, and rightly so, but I don t see that my views have changed since then. I m curious to
                      Message 10 of 29 , Jan 10, 2007
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                        Howdy, Doug!

                        Doug Freyburger spake:
                        > Karl Donaldsson wrote:
                        >> michael cole spake:
                        >>
                        >> > As a thought, one of the hardest things was to differentiate the
                        >> > different branches (i.e theod, universalist, folkish or tribal).
                        >> Maybe
                        >> > some information on that would be helpful.
                        >>
                        >> I have an article there which has an old link that needs to be updated:
                        >>
                        >> "The Tectonic Plates of Asatru
                        >> by Karl Donaldsson
                        >
                        > It was recently discussed on the Grimnir's Gate list. The folkish on that
                        > list think it is out of date and in need of update.

                        Heh. I've updated it once already in 2001 for Asaru-U, and rightly so,
                        but I don't see that my views have changed since then. I'm curious to
                        know what the sticking point was, but but on curious enough to join GG.
                        It was a little too ... well, folkish for me.

                        > I was far from
                        > convinced
                        > as I followed that discussion. The main point seems to have been that
                        > the milder among the folkish have gradually taken over and that has
                        > pushed that school further towards whatever the mainstream might be.

                        Odd, I thought my article indicated that:
                        "The large majority of all Ásatrúar fall toward the middle; say, about 80%
                        who are just on one side or another, with a small minority flaking out to
                        the fringes. ... Again, the large majority of people calling themselves
                        Ásatrú are, indeed, Ásatrú; however, there are those on the fringe of
                        either side who use the term to desribe themselves erroneously."

                        > It appears that there are now folkish kindreds who eject neo-Nazis on
                        > detection.

                        There always have been, AKAIK.

                        > There was no specific statement that such is now a
                        > universally held policy among folkish kindreds. Remembering the events
                        > of 1993 on Granquist's Asatru-L@... list I remain pretty
                        > fussy about that point.

                        Agreed.

                        > Even one folkish kindred that does not eject
                        > them on detection and the folkish movement can never be whatever
                        > mainstream might mean IMO.

                        Agreed, and noted from observation.

                        > While I am glad to see some progress between 1993 and now, a
                        > complete retraction has never happened. I don't ever expect one to
                        > happen but if it became the policy of all folkish kindreds without
                        > exception to eject neos on detection I would consider the issue to be
                        > resolved.

                        I doubt we'll get there in our lifetimes.

                        > My comment to Michael - The fact that folks on Grimnir's Gate disagreed
                        > with point in the document doesn't mean they are right and Karl is
                        > wrong. Both this list and that one are partisan in stance when it comes
                        > to the topic. There folks are expected to be pro-folkish here folks are
                        > expected to be pro-religious as matters of list policy. The fact that I'm
                        > on both lists doesn't mean I hold the opinions of both, it means I'm
                        > able to handle both environments.

                        And, more importantly, just because I have a link to an article from my
                        website on Asatru-U doesn't mean I know my ass from a hole in the ground,
                        either -- find your own truths.

                        Frith upon your house
                        Karl Donaldsson
                        <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
                        hfg@... http://hfg.ravenbanner.com
                        Check out the Happy Fat Guy Pottery Studio!
                        <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
                        Member of the Kindred of Ravenswood
                        Zionsville, Indiana USA
                        http://www.iquest.net/~chaviland/Rindex.html
                        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                        To Vali! To Vengeance! To Honor! To Kin!
                        _______________________________________________
                        "Would you know more, or what?"
                        Get Asatru education at http://www.asatru-u.org
                      • michael cole
                        I had read that, the last time it came up for discussion. I actually got into a bit of trouble because I had wondered if there were any expansions done on the
                        Message 11 of 29 , Jan 10, 2007
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                          I had read that, the last time it came up for discussion. I actually got into a bit of trouble because I had wondered if there were any expansions done on the documanet, and someone thought I was trying to plagarize it. (I was merely wondering if Karl had expanded on it later, I still hope he might, there are many interesting points in it).

                          What I am wondering is if we could maybe create links to writings, giving us a insight to the branches of asatru. For instance a lot of what i know of Theod comes from a gentleman named Rich Culver. We are on a Texas list together and he has taken the time to direct me to some nice people and has a great website with some well thought out writings on it.

                          Kind of a this is who we are and are not, directly from the horses mouth. And not so much from someone elses.

                          I think that this part of heathenry is the most confusing at times to a newbie, at least from my standpoint. A lot of what I read out there is usually confusing without a idea of that fundamental view point on it.

                          A thought provoking post as usual, Doug. Thanks!

                          Michael





                          Doug Freyburger <dfreybur@...> wrote:
                          Karl Donaldsson wrote:
                          > michael cole spake:
                          >
                          > > As a thought, one of the hardest things was to differentiate the
                          > > different branches (i.e theod, universalist, folkish or tribal). Maybe
                          > > some information on that would be helpful.
                          >
                          > I have an article there which has an old link that needs to be updated:
                          >
                          > "The Tectonic Plates of Asatru
                          > by Karl Donaldsson

                          It was recently discussed on the Grimnir's Gate list. The folkish on that
                          list think it is out of date and in need of update. I was far from convinced
                          as I followed that discussion. The main point seems to have been that
                          the milder among the folkish have gradually taken over and that has
                          pushed that school further towards whatever the mainstream might be.

                          It appears that there are now folkish kindreds who eject neo-Nazis on
                          detection. There was no specific statement that such is now a
                          universally held policy among folkish kindreds. Remembering the events
                          of 1993 on Granquist's Asatru-L@... list I remain pretty
                          fussy about that point. Even one folkish kindred that does not eject
                          them on detection and the folkish movement can never be whatever
                          mainstream might mean IMO.

                          While I am glad to see some progress between 1993 and now, a
                          complete retraction has never happened. I don't ever expect one to
                          happen but if it became the policy of all folkish kindreds without
                          exception to eject neos on detection I would consider the issue to be
                          resolved.

                          > By now, you will have realized that there are a number of conflicting
                          > "theological" positions that fall under the Asatru umbrella. While
                          > one or another may be right for you, it probably won't be right for
                          > everyone. This essay is a subjective attempt to identify and
                          > categorize some of these positions. Even though it is subjective, it
                          > provides an excellent overview of the different attitudes held by
                          > many Heathens. You are likely to find it a helpful source of
                          > information even if you don't agree with the author on every point."
                          >
                          > I have the article at:
                          >
                          > http://hfg.ravenbanner.com/faults.pdf
                          > It might be useful to you; it might not be.

                          My comment to Michael - The fact that folks on Grimnir's Gate disagreed
                          with point in the document doesn't mean they are right and Karl is
                          wrong. Both this list and that one are partisan in stance when it comes
                          to the topic. There folks are expected to be pro-folkish here folks are
                          expected to be pro-religious as matters of list policy. The fact that I'm
                          on both lists doesn't mean I hold the opinions of both, it means I'm
                          able to handle both environments.

                          Hail Asgard!
                          Doug Freyburger moderator soc.religion.asatru





                          Hail to the Æsir!
                          Hail to the Asyniur!
                          Hail to the bounteous earth!
                          Words and wisdom give to us noble twain,
                          and healing hands while we live

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Doug Freyburger
                          ... The borders are cloudy and shift. The fact that most heathens are not extremists means they eventually cluster in the center so there is a ton of overlap.
                          Message 12 of 29 , Jan 12, 2007
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                            Lissa wrote:
                            > Michael wrote:
                            >
                            > > As a thought, one of the hardest things was to differentiate the
                            > > different branches (i.e theod, universalist, folkish or tribal). Maybe
                            > > some information on that would be helpful.
                            >
                            > Someone would have to create it before we link to it. The difficulties
                            > lie in the fuzziness of the lines. I know where *I* draw them, but that
                            > is in a totally different place than others draw them.

                            The borders are cloudy and shift. The fact that most heathens are not
                            extremists means they eventually cluster in the center so there is a
                            ton of overlap.

                            > The use of the term "universalist", btw, is not universal.

                            It is in fact insulting. The fact that the folkish continue to use it
                            knowing it is insulting tells much about the problem. What sort of
                            religion goes around claiming they are right and everyone else is
                            wrong again?

                            > That is a
                            > Volkish term for non-racist, non-tribal Asatruar, who normally just call
                            > themselves Asatruar or heathen. Occasionally one hears "progressive."

                            The word "progressive" never worked right either. Various folks have
                            tried "religious", can I interest others in standardizing on that? The
                            word folkish comes from folk which means the people. In other words
                            the important part to the folkish by their own name is the people. The
                            word religious expresses well why arrived in Asatru - the important part
                            is the Aesir, Vanir and allied wights who would exist even if all of the
                            people cease to exist.



                            Manny Olds wrote:
                            >
                            > This is all pointing at the roadblock we hit in adding more
                            > information to the site.
                            >
                            > We know that the "types of heathen" document needs to be next, but we
                            > can't get the information to write it, and the landscape is changing
                            > fast anyway.

                            Maybe it's better to side step this one and move on to the next topic?
                            If it's the only roadblock the way through is the way around.

                            > We have also not been able to sustain any participation from members
                            > of folkish or theodish groups. It's hard to capture how they see
                            > themselves from the outside.

                            I can address the issue for the folkish not the theodish.

                            On Grimnir's Gate it is allowed to state that folkish is the only true kind
                            of Asatru and to bash the unis. This moderation policy qualifies the
                            gate as a ghetto for the folkish.

                            On Asatru-U it is allowed to state that folkish is inherently racist and
                            to bash the folkish - Remember responses to my comments in the last
                            couple of months. This moderation policy qualifies the university as a
                            ghetto for the religious.

                            Quite simple how it works that way.

                            > I'm not sure how to overcome these.

                            Crossing over the fence and hanging out with the milder ones among those
                            on the other side of it takes effort and thick skin. Even among the folks
                            on this list, who could stomach the company of that nurse guy in Georgia
                            who was always screaming at people calling them nazis for not being as
                            progressive as he was? This message has spent an hour in my drafts
                            folder and I've still drawn a blank on his name. Crap. Of course I will
                            remember as soon as I hit send ...

                            It's hard to get that this level of extremity is rare on both sides. Especially
                            for anyone who was on Granquist's Asatru-L@... list in 1993.

                            To overcome this would take an attitude shift like the Irmunsil Aettir made.
                            Given what I've heard of Troth events in the last few years, I don't know
                            how good an idea it would be. There are good reasons I repeat that there
                            is strength in diversity and that I'm not here to agree with people.


                            Karl Donaldsson wrote:
                            >
                            > I'm curious to
                            > know what the sticking point was, but but on curious enough to join GG.
                            > It was a little too ... well, folkish for me.

                            It's too folkish for me to participate at times. I chose to have a thick skin
                            so that I can get their points. Over the years I've built an appreciation for
                            what folkish should be so I can ignore the rough edges and the couple of
                            extremists. I figure if I am not there at all then I can have no influence on
                            what it actually becomes while if I am there I might be able to steer some
                            in the direction I think it should go.

                            michael cole wrote:
                            >
                            > Kind of a this is who we are and are not, directly from the horses mouth.
                            > And not so much from someone elses.

                            Like Gammlinin's old "Her Ik Stand".

                            The problem - What if some group says they stand for such-and-such but
                            over time it comes out those claims are a front? I keep referring to events
                            in 1993 that you couldn't possibly have been witnessed to but those events
                            made that problem abundantly clear. Just because a groups has a
                            statement of principles doesn't mean they even pay lip service to them.
                            At least one well known group is far from what it claims to be until the
                            statements of 1993 are withdrawn.

                            > I think that this part of heathenry is the most confusing at times to a
                            > newbie, at least from my standpoint.

                            The fact that I refer to events without quotes doesn't help either. Does anyone
                            have an old 8mm Exabyte helical scan SCSI tape drive of the sort that used
                            to be popular on Sun servers? My old e-mail archives were written to such a
                            tape and might never be accessible any more.

                            > A lot of what I read out there is usually confusing without a idea of that
                            > fundamental view point on it.

                            Certainly comments on the gate that the only type of Asatru is the folkish
                            type and comments here that folkish equals racist do zero to discuss the
                            fundiment view point. Or do they? What if you view those as far infrared
                            and far ultraviolet where most stand in the visible part of the spectrum in
                            between? You don't end up far from Karls tectonic plate document.
                          • Manny Olds
                            ... It is hard to manage the discussion as neatly as you would like. If we are not talking about describing the differences between the groups, I restrict
                            Message 13 of 29 , Jan 12, 2007
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                              On 1/12/07, Doug Freyburger <dfreybur@...> wrote:
                              > On Grimnir's Gate it is allowed to state that folkish is the only true kind
                              > of Asatru and to bash the unis. This moderation policy qualifies the
                              > gate as a ghetto for the folkish.
                              >
                              > On Asatru-U it is allowed to state that folkish is inherently racist and
                              > to bash the folkish - Remember responses to my comments in the last
                              > couple of months. This moderation policy qualifies the university as a
                              > ghetto for the religious.
                              >
                              > Quite simple how it works that way.

                              It is hard to manage the discussion as neatly as you would like.

                              If we are not talking about describing the differences between the
                              groups, I restrict slurs pretty stringently. Once we start talking
                              about those issues, I don't see how to avoid it, though. Knowing that
                              the type of heathenism Lissa represents thinks that some other type is
                              tainted by Nazi associations (e.g.) IS the point of the exercise.

                              As far as I could tell, we lost the folkish when they were prevented
                              from launching attacks out of just about every topic that was brought
                              up. I never kicked them off the list--they just closed their notebooks
                              and left. I wish they had stayed.

                              Manny Olds
                            • michael cole
                              ... It was for that reason that I liked the document so much. It did set forth some interesting premises. Ones that deserve a deaper study. I was checking
                              Message 14 of 29 , Jan 12, 2007
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                                >What if you view those as far infrared
                                >and far ultraviolet where most stand in the visible part of the spectrum in
                                >between? You don't end up far from Karls tectonic plate document

                                It was for that reason that I liked the document so much. It did set forth some interesting premises. Ones that deserve a deaper study. I was checking My Docs, I thought I had saved it there, but it is gone. Karl can you shot me another copy?

                                I guess that is where I luck out by geography as a new heathen. The Texas Asatru list I belong to is varied. We have folkish, we have Theod and (for lack of a better term) universalist. But we manage to get along. I guess it is because that above all we try and remember we are Texan and Heathen. I wish at times that we as heathens could all remember that, yes we approach heathenism from different views, but we are all at the end of the day the same.

                                While I am rambling on (I seem to do more and more of that lately, guess my 31 years have caught up with me) can someone give me a good heathen calendar link? I have a couple, but the have some differences, I would like to look at a broader spectrum. Maybe eventually post my own online.

                                By the way, to learn more of the runes, I have decided to make a set of my own. I have taken a huge branch of a tree that was felled (the trunk was burnt for yule) And from there I plan on cutting and shaping my own runes. I plan on making a journal about my project, about the reflections I get while making them and what I learn of each rune.

                                Well, my fingers are hurting, so I guess this email is finished :-)

                                Michael


                                Hail to the Æsir!
                                Hail to the Asyniur!
                                Hail to the bounteous earth!
                                Words and wisdom give to us noble twain,
                                and healing hands while we live

                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Lissa
                                ... Do we cluster in the centre? I have no idea. I don t know most heathens, and since we have no clue how many there might be, I don t think anyone else does,
                                Message 15 of 29 , Jan 12, 2007
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                                  on 01/12/2007 12:15 PM Doug Freyburger said the following:

                                  > The borders are cloudy and shift. The fact that most heathens are not
                                  > extremists means they eventually cluster in the center so there is a
                                  > ton of overlap.

                                  Do we cluster in the centre? I have no idea. I don't know most heathens,
                                  and since we have no clue how many there might be, I don't think anyone
                                  else does, either.

                                  So, I'm very suspicious of claims that "most heathens X", because X
                                  inevitably is something the speaker believes.

                                  > > The use of the term "universalist", btw, is not universal.
                                  >
                                  > It is in fact insulting. The fact that the folkish continue to use it
                                  > knowing it is insulting tells much about the problem.

                                  Insulting...perhaps, to some. I find it amusing. It is also useful,
                                  because anyone who uses it (with the possible exception of new folks who
                                  don't know better) is someone I don't wish to have anything to do with.

                                  > > That is a
                                  > > Volkish term for non-racist, non-tribal Asatruar, who normally just call
                                  > > themselves Asatruar or heathen. Occasionally one hears "progressive."
                                  >
                                  > The word "progressive" never worked right either. Various folks have
                                  > tried "religious", can I interest others in standardizing on that?

                                  No. I hate it. Being religious is not necessary to be heathen, as we
                                  know from the sagas. I understand thee temptation to come up with
                                  something that is the opposite of "cultural" or "political", but
                                  "religious" isn't it.

                                  I propose "heathen" or "Asatruar". That is, after all, what we are.
                                  Having to have a schism name is a sign of immaturity, insecurity and an
                                  admission of splinter status.

                                  > On Grimnir's Gate it is allowed to state that folkish is the only true kind
                                  > of Asatru and to bash the unis. This moderation policy qualifies the
                                  > gate as a ghetto for the folkish.
                                  >
                                  > On Asatru-U it is allowed to state that folkish is inherently racist and
                                  > to bash the folkish - Remember responses to my comments in the last
                                  > couple of months. This moderation policy qualifies the university as a
                                  > ghetto for the religious.

                                  Bullshit. The folkish have spent plenty of time bashing mainstream
                                  Asatruar here. And I've been told to shut up more than once for bashing
                                  the racists.

                                  I get really sick of perpetual victim crap. Reminds me of the Christian
                                  Fascists.

                                  Most of the folkish chose to leave because they were mortified at the
                                  thought of non-white, non-Germanic (whatever that means),
                                  non-heterosexual, non-male heathens, and shocked by the thought that
                                  such heathens might be acceptable to the gods and the vaettir.

                                  Be well,
                                  Lissa
                                  --

                                  Blindur er bóklaus maður.

                                  * Trans. Blind is a man without a book.

                                  Icelandic proverb, wikiquote
                                • Lissa
                                  ... Quite so. ... I find the Folkish are tainted by racism. All of them. Only a sub-set are tainted by Nazism. Frankly, I think the Nazis are pretty laughable.
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Jan 12, 2007
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                                    on 01/12/2007 12:48 PM Manny Olds said the following:

                                    > It is hard to manage the discussion as neatly as you would like.

                                    Quite so.

                                    > If we are not talking about describing the differences between the
                                    > groups, I restrict slurs pretty stringently. Once we start talking
                                    > about those issues, I don't see how to avoid it, though. Knowing that
                                    > the type of heathenism Lissa represents thinks that some other type is
                                    > tainted by Nazi associations (e.g.) IS the point of the exercise.

                                    I find the Folkish are tainted by racism. All of them. Only a sub-set
                                    are tainted by Nazism. Frankly, I think the Nazis are pretty laughable.
                                    I've known a few. Loosers. I have an easier time taking the John
                                    Birchers seriously.

                                    I also admit that I take an extreme position, as far as I can tell,
                                    within heathenry. I don't think the Folkish are heathen, basically. A
                                    cultural club, perhaps, a political movement, well, if they are, they
                                    aren't very effective, but, as far as I can tell, they aren't much
                                    concerned with the gods.

                                    > As far as I could tell, we lost the folkish when they were prevented
                                    > from launching attacks out of just about every topic that was brought
                                    > up. I never kicked them off the list--they just closed their notebooks
                                    > and left. I wish they had stayed.

                                    Believe it or, I do, too. When they take their toys, and limit
                                    themselves to their own sandboxes, they eliminate the possibility of
                                    communication.

                                    And, I do so love a good argument.

                                    Be well,
                                    Lissa
                                    --

                                    Jokes were to communism what myths were to ancient Greece: anonymous,
                                    oral stories which both represented and shaped people's views and actions.

                                    Ben Lewis, "Hammer & Tickle," Prospect Magazine, May, 2006
                                  • Manny Olds
                                    ... First of all, could we please avoid dialling this up to 11? Thank you. As things stand, how do we proceed? Should we explicitly limit the scope of the
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Jan 12, 2007
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                                      On 1/12/07, Lissa <qibhom@...> wrote:
                                      > > The word "progressive" never worked right either. Various folks have
                                      > > tried "religious", can I interest others in standardizing on that?
                                      >
                                      > No. I hate it. Being religious is not necessary to be heathen, as we
                                      > know from the sagas. I understand thee temptation to come up with
                                      > something that is the opposite of "cultural" or "political", but
                                      > "religious" isn't it.
                                      >
                                      > I propose "heathen" or "Asatruar". That is, after all, what we are.
                                      > Having to have a schism name is a sign of immaturity, insecurity and an
                                      > admission of splinter status.
                                      >
                                      > > On Grimnir's Gate it is allowed to state that folkish is the only true kind
                                      > > of Asatru and to bash the unis. This moderation policy qualifies the
                                      > > gate as a ghetto for the folkish.
                                      > >
                                      > > On Asatru-U it is allowed to state that folkish is inherently racist and
                                      > > to bash the folkish - Remember responses to my comments in the last
                                      > > couple of months. This moderation policy qualifies the university as a
                                      > > ghetto for the religious.
                                      >
                                      > Bullshit. The folkish have spent plenty of time bashing mainstream
                                      > Asatruar here. And I've been told to shut up more than once for bashing
                                      > the racists.
                                      >
                                      > I get really sick of perpetual victim crap. Reminds me of the Christian
                                      > Fascists.
                                      >
                                      > Most of the folkish chose to leave because they were mortified at the
                                      > thought of non-white, non-Germanic (whatever that means),
                                      > non-heterosexual, non-male heathens, and shocked by the thought that
                                      > such heathens might be acceptable to the gods and the vaettir.

                                      First of all, could we please avoid dialling this up to 11? Thank you.

                                      As things stand, how do we proceed? Should we explicitly limit the
                                      scope of the endeavor to ... what? Should we try to describe regions
                                      of the heathen lanscape we see only at a distance? Any suggestions
                                      from the newer people who have been using the existing course?

                                      Manny Olds
                                    • Doug Freyburger
                                      ... Simple in principle can be impossible in practive. Here s a shovel and pick. Please move Pike s Peak 6 meters south. ... When folks think they have the
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Jan 13, 2007
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                                        Manny Olds wrote:
                                        > Doug Freyburger wrote:
                                        >
                                        > > On Grimnir's Gate it is allowed to state that folkish is the only true kind
                                        > > of Asatru and to bash the unis. This moderation policy qualifies the
                                        > > gate as a ghetto for the folkish.
                                        >
                                        > > On Asatru-U it is allowed to state that folkish is inherently racist and
                                        > > to bash the folkish - Remember responses to my comments in the last
                                        > > couple of months. This moderation policy qualifies the university as a
                                        > > ghetto for the religious.
                                        >
                                        > > Quite simple how it works that way.
                                        >
                                        > It is hard to manage the discussion as neatly as you would like.

                                        Simple in principle can be impossible in practive. Here's a shovel
                                        and pick. Please move Pike's Peak 6 meters south.

                                        > As far as I could tell, we lost the folkish when they were prevented
                                        > from launching attacks out of just about every topic that was brought
                                        > up.

                                        When folks think they have the only right way they try to take over.
                                        Now where have I heard that one before. Anyways, some among the
                                        folkish take that approach. It is not to be tolerated outside of
                                        their own ghetto lists.

                                        > I never kicked them off the list--they just closed their notebooks
                                        > and left. I wish they had stayed.

                                        But there do exist fora where they get along. Does anyone know how that
                                        has been acheived?

                                        Lissa wrote:
                                        > Doug Freyburger wrote:
                                        >
                                        > > The borders are cloudy and shift. The fact that most heathens are not
                                        > > extremists means they eventually cluster in the center so there is a
                                        > > ton of overlap.
                                        >
                                        > Do we cluster in the centre? I have no idea. I don't know most heathens,
                                        > and since we have no clue how many there might be, I don't think anyone
                                        > else does, either.

                                        Assumption - Trends among those observed are assumed to continue among
                                        those not observed unless growth in the population of observed changes
                                        significantly as new data points arrive by observing new subjects.

                                        This is clearly an assumption you don't hold. I won't argue that point
                                        with you. The more heathens I've corresponded with, met, read their
                                        writings, the more the number has grown without effecting whatever trends
                                        I have noticed. Thus it is isn't relevant that I don't even know how many
                                        heathens exist, so long as the trend continues as I encounter new ones I
                                        will continue to assert the trend.

                                        > > > That is a
                                        > > > Volkish term for non-racist, non-tribal Asatruar, who normally just call
                                        > > > themselves Asatruar or heathen. Occasionally one hears "progressive."
                                        >
                                        > > The word "progressive" never worked right either. Various folks have
                                        > > tried "religious", can I interest others in standardizing on that?
                                        >
                                        > No. I hate it. Being religious is not necessary to be heathen, as we
                                        > know from the sagas. I understand thee temptation to come up with
                                        > something that is the opposite of "cultural" or "political", but
                                        > "religious" isn't it.

                                        Over the years I met enough practicing heathens who are atheists who
                                        are not folkish that I get the point.

                                        > I propose "heathen" or "Asatruar". That is, after all, what we are.

                                        It suffers from arrogance. Too much like those extreme folkish who say
                                        that if you're not folkish you're not Asatru.

                                        > Having to have a schism name is a sign of immaturity, insecurity and an
                                        > admission of splinter status.

                                        We're not going to make that particular disagreement go away by failing
                                        to give handles to the sides. Even the Catholics don't just call themselves
                                        "Christian". And it's amusing that what they did was take the word
                                        "universal", look through a bunch of dead languages for words that meant
                                        the same thing until they found one easy to pronounce, and picked that
                                        one.

                                        The Catholic example is entertaining that way. It's like how I describe
                                        the word Asatru. <Loosely translated, Asatru means religion. We who follow
                                        the Aesir could hardly call ourselves "religion" though. So we looked back
                                        through old languages and pick the Old Norse equivalent.> The explanation
                                        lacks some points of technical accuracy but it isn't a bad back of the
                                        envelope first order approximation.

                                        This does suggest a way to go about selecting a handle. Folkish comes
                                        from the German volk for people and cognates in othter Germanic
                                        languages. Maybe we should pick an Old Norse word for rebuilder or
                                        practitioner or colonist or foster/adopter?

                                        > Most of the folkish chose to leave ...

                                        Ah, history from before I subscribed. What I see is the postings in the
                                        last year. When I subscribed I only went back a few months.

                                        Manny Olds wrote:
                                        >
                                        > As things stand, how do we proceed? Should we explicitly limit the
                                        > scope of the endeavor to ... what? Should we try to describe regions
                                        > of the heathen lanscape we see only at a distance? Any suggestions
                                        > from the newer people who have been using the existing course?

                                        I don't mind asking Karl to donate his document, and folks disagreeing
                                        with it don't bother me.
                                      • Karl Donaldsson
                                        ... Pat. I considered it to be a rite of passage in on-line heathen lists to be added to his kill file for at least some period of time. ... One of the
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Jan 13, 2007
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                                          Doug Freyburger spake:

                                          > Crossing over the fence and hanging out with the milder ones among those
                                          > on the other side of it takes effort and thick skin. Even among the folks
                                          > on this list, who could stomach the company of that nurse guy in Georgia
                                          > who was always screaming at people calling them nazis for not being as
                                          > progressive as he was? This message has spent an hour in my drafts
                                          > folder and I've still drawn a blank on his name. Crap. Of course I will
                                          > remember as soon as I hit send ...

                                          Pat. I considered it to be a rite of passage in on-line heathen lists to
                                          be added to his kill file for at least some period of time.

                                          > Karl Donaldsson wrote:
                                          >>
                                          >> I'm curious to
                                          >> know what the sticking point was, but but on curious enough to join GG.
                                          >> It was a little too ... well, folkish for me.
                                          >
                                          > It's too folkish for me to participate at times. I chose to have a thick
                                          > skin
                                          > so that I can get their points. Over the years I've built an appreciation
                                          > for
                                          > what folkish should be so I can ignore the rough edges and the couple of
                                          > extremists. I figure if I am not there at all then I can have no
                                          > influence on
                                          > what it actually becomes while if I am there I might be able to steer some
                                          > in the direction I think it should go.

                                          One of the reasons I still remain on OM. Heathenry is what I make it, as
                                          much as anyone else. If not me, then who? If not now, then when?


                                          Frith upon your house
                                          Karl Donaldsson
                                          <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
                                          hfg@... http://hfg.ravenbanner.com
                                          Check out the Happy Fat Guy Pottery Studio!
                                          <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
                                          Member of the Kindred of Ravenswood
                                          Zionsville, Indiana USA
                                          http://www.iquest.net/~chaviland/Rindex.html
                                          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                                          To Vali! To Vengeance! To Honor! To Kin!
                                          _______________________________________________
                                          "Would you know more, or what?"
                                          Get Asatru education at http://www.asatru-u.org
                                        • collaich1
                                          Greetings, What a good idea, I thoroughly endorse it, and it would help me amazingly. collaich1 ... From: michael cole To:
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Jan 13, 2007
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                                            Greetings,

                                            What a good idea, I thoroughly endorse it, and it would help me amazingly.

                                            collaich1


                                            ----- Original Message ----
                                            From: michael cole <michael5160@...>
                                            To: Asatru-U@yahoogroups.com
                                            Sent: Thursday, 11 January, 2007 7:43:06 AM
                                            Subject: Re: [Asatru-U] Re: Up Date of Asatru-U Web Page

                                            I had read that, the last time it came up for discussion. I actually got into a bit of trouble because I had wondered if there were any expansions done on the documanet, and someone thought I was trying to plagarize it. (I was merely wondering if Karl had expanded on it later, I still hope he might, there are many interesting points in it).

                                            What I am wondering is if we could maybe create links to writings, giving us a insight to the branches of asatru. For instance a lot of what i know of Theod comes from a gentleman named Rich Culver. We are on a Texas list together and he has taken the time to direct me to some nice people and has a great website with some well thought out writings on it.

                                            Kind of a this is who we are and are not, directly from the horses mouth. And not so much from someone elses.

                                            I think that this part of heathenry is the most confusing at times to a newbie, at least from my standpoint. A lot of what I read out there is usually confusing without a idea of that fundamental view point on it.

                                            A thought provoking post as usual, Doug. Thanks!

                                            Michael





                                            Doug Freyburger <dfreybur@yahoo. com> wrote:
                                            Karl Donaldsson wrote:
                                            > michael cole spake:
                                            >
                                            > > As a thought, one of the hardest things was to differentiate the
                                            > > different branches (i.e theod, universalist, folkish or tribal). Maybe
                                            > > some information on that would be helpful.
                                            >
                                            > I have an article there which has an old link that needs to be updated:
                                            >
                                            > "The Tectonic Plates of Asatru
                                            > by Karl Donaldsson

                                            It was recently discussed on the Grimnir's Gate list. The folkish on that
                                            list think it is out of date and in need of update. I was far from convinced
                                            as I followed that discussion. The main point seems to have been that
                                            the milder among the folkish have gradually taken over and that has
                                            pushed that school further towards whatever the mainstream might be.

                                            It appears that there are now folkish kindreds who eject neo-Nazis on
                                            detection. There was no specific statement that such is now a
                                            universally held policy among folkish kindreds. Remembering the events
                                            of 1993 on Granquist's Asatru-L@Valkyrie. com list I remain pretty
                                            fussy about that point. Even one folkish kindred that does not eject
                                            them on detection and the folkish movement can never be whatever
                                            mainstream might mean IMO.

                                            While I am glad to see some progress between 1993 and now, a
                                            complete retraction has never happened. I don't ever expect one to
                                            happen but if it became the policy of all folkish kindreds without
                                            exception to eject neos on detection I would consider the issue to be
                                            resolved.

                                            > By now, you will have realized that there are a number of conflicting
                                            > "theological" positions that fall under the Asatru umbrella. While
                                            > one or another may be right for you, it probably won't be right for
                                            > everyone. This essay is a subjective attempt to identify and
                                            > categorize some of these positions. Even though it is subjective, it
                                            > provides an excellent overview of the different attitudes held by
                                            > many Heathens. You are likely to find it a helpful source of
                                            > information even if you don't agree with the author on every point."
                                            >
                                            > I have the article at:
                                            >
                                            > http://hfg.ravenban ner.com/faults. pdf
                                            > It might be useful to you; it might not be.

                                            My comment to Michael - The fact that folks on Grimnir's Gate disagreed
                                            with point in the document doesn't mean they are right and Karl is
                                            wrong. Both this list and that one are partisan in stance when it comes
                                            to the topic. There folks are expected to be pro-folkish here folks are
                                            expected to be pro-religious as matters of list policy. The fact that I'm
                                            on both lists doesn't mean I hold the opinions of both, it means I'm
                                            able to handle both environments.

                                            Hail Asgard!
                                            Doug Freyburger moderator soc.religion. asatru

                                            Hail to the Æsir!
                                            Hail to the Asyniur!
                                            Hail to the bounteous earth!
                                            Words and wisdom give to us noble twain,
                                            and healing hands while we live

                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                                            Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com

                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • Karl Donaldsson
                                            ... Wow, thanks! ... It s right here: http://hfg.ravenbanner.com/faults.pdf Frith upon your house Karl Donaldsson
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Jan 13, 2007
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                                              michael cole spake:
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >>What if you view those as far infrared
                                              >>and far ultraviolet where most stand in the visible part of the spectrum
                                              >> in
                                              >>between? You don't end up far from Karls tectonic plate document
                                              >
                                              > It was for that reason that I liked the document so much.

                                              Wow, thanks!

                                              > It did set
                                              > forth some interesting premises. Ones that deserve a deaper study. I
                                              > was checking My Docs, I thought I had saved it there, but it is gone.
                                              > Karl can you shot me another copy?

                                              It's right here:

                                              http://hfg.ravenbanner.com/faults.pdf


                                              Frith upon your house
                                              Karl Donaldsson
                                              <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
                                              hfg@... http://hfg.ravenbanner.com
                                              Check out the Happy Fat Guy Pottery Studio!
                                              <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
                                              Member of the Kindred of Ravenswood
                                              Zionsville, Indiana USA
                                              http://www.iquest.net/~chaviland/Rindex.html
                                              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                                              To Vali! To Vengeance! To Honor! To Kin!
                                              _______________________________________________
                                              "Would you know more, or what?"
                                              Get Asatru education at http://www.asatru-u.org
                                            • Audrey C.
                                              Time for me to get my two cents in: I am Audrey, a 23 yr old female in Washington State, that has previously been quiet in this forum, content to read and
                                              Message 22 of 29 , Jan 13, 2007
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                                                Time for me to get my two cents in:
                                                I am Audrey, a 23 yr old female in Washington State, that has previously been quiet in this forum, content to read and learn from others. I have been studying asatru for two years - I was drawn by my ancestry (as I assume many people in this religion are - at least those few i have met). I believe that those who are not of German/Norse/Scandinavian descent should not be turned away - rather, I think that they should be counselled to look into the gods/godesses of their ancestors.Given enough time and introspection, if the person still feels genuinely drawn to Asatru, I believe that they should be welcomed into the fold. Who are we to question the gods - just like the christian god, Odin chooses his warriors, no matter what the color of their skin or ancestry.Anyone else want to share their outlook on this issue?

                                                Wassail!
                                                Audrey


                                                ---------------------------------
                                                Have a burning question? Go to Yahoo! Answers and get answers from real people who know.

                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              • Lissa
                                                on 01/13/2007 05:15 PM Doug Freyburger said the following: ... May I suggest you look into the etymology of the word nice? It may suggest some answers. ...
                                                Message 23 of 29 , Jan 13, 2007
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                                                  on 01/13/2007 05:15 PM Doug Freyburger said the following:
                                                  Manny wrote:
                                                  > > I never kicked them off the list--they just closed their notebooks
                                                  > > and left. I wish they had stayed.
                                                  >
                                                  > But there do exist fora where they get along. Does anyone know how that
                                                  > has been acheived?

                                                  May I suggest you look into the etymology of the word "nice?" It may
                                                  suggest some answers.

                                                  > Lissa wrote:
                                                  > > Doug Freyburger wrote:
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > The borders are cloudy and shift. The fact that most heathens are not
                                                  > > > extremists means they eventually cluster in the center so there is a
                                                  > > > ton of overlap.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Do we cluster in the centre? I have no idea. I don't know most heathens,
                                                  > > and since we have no clue how many there might be, I don't think anyone
                                                  > > else does, either.
                                                  >
                                                  > Assumption - Trends among those observed are assumed to continue among
                                                  > those not observed unless growth in the population of observed changes
                                                  > significantly as new data points arrive by observing new subjects.

                                                  In other words, what you have observed is representative of all
                                                  heathens, balanced and thoughtful. What other heathens might observe is
                                                  subject to observer or sample bias.

                                                  Ok...got it. You have the truth. The heathens I know are weird and
                                                  unusual. No problem. I like being a heretic.

                                                  But, I still think you don't know any more than I do.

                                                  > This is clearly an assumption you don't hold.

                                                  Assumption? No, I don't hold it. I tend to go with statistical sample
                                                  size, hypothesis, testing and other scientific methods. Assumptions are
                                                  something I try to hunt, because they skew interpretation of data.

                                                  > I won't argue that point
                                                  > with you. The more heathens I've corresponded with, met, read their
                                                  > writings, the more the number has grown without effecting whatever trends
                                                  > I have noticed. Thus it is isn't relevant that I don't even know how many
                                                  > heathens exist, so long as the trend continues as I encounter new ones I
                                                  > will continue to assert the trend.

                                                  Please don't let me hold you back from using more subjective criteria.
                                                  I'm not a gythia, wouldn't dream of telling someone else what they
                                                  should do. Nice to know what you are basing your statements on.

                                                  > > I propose "heathen" or "Asatruar". That is, after all, what we are.
                                                  >
                                                  > It suffers from arrogance. Too much like those extreme folkish who say
                                                  > that if you're not folkish you're not Asatru.

                                                  Arrogance, if you have something to back it, is a heathen virtue.

                                                  Yes, in this case, I do have the truth. Politics makes a crappy
                                                  religion. So does genetics. And it isn't just the extreme Volkish who've
                                                  questioned how someone like me could be heathen. Just exactly what "like
                                                  me" is varies.

                                                  Prove me wrong. Seriously.

                                                  > > Having to have a schism name is a sign of immaturity, insecurity and an
                                                  > > admission of splinter status.
                                                  >
                                                  > We're not going to make that particular disagreement go away by failing
                                                  > to give handles to the sides. Even the Catholics don't just call themselves
                                                  > "Christian". And it's amusing that what they did was take the word
                                                  > "universal", look through a bunch of dead languages for words that meant
                                                  > the same thing until they found one easy to pronounce, and picked that
                                                  > one.

                                                  We aren't going to make it go away by naming it, cuddling it and stating
                                                  that there is a schism, either. I'd rather focus on the gods and the
                                                  vaettir than a bunch of racist loosers. I'm sure they'd rather focus on
                                                  anything besides one gay Lokean.

                                                  Paying them any heed isn't going to change anything.

                                                  > > Most of the folkish chose to leave ...
                                                  >
                                                  > Ah, history from before I subscribed. What I see is the postings in the
                                                  > last year. When I subscribed I only went back a few months.

                                                  And, you don't need to read archives, or ask anyone what happened before
                                                  you got here, because you already know what happened. We radical Uni
                                                  types threw the poor, innocent Folk out.

                                                  I'm the only extreme anti-folkish person on this list. And I'm just not
                                                  that powerful. Hell, I'm not even *that* annoying. I'd guess that I was
                                                  moderated as much as they were. Possibly more.

                                                  So, they chose to leave, either because one person scared them off
                                                  (doubtful), or because Manny's memory is accurate.

                                                  Be well,
                                                  Lissa


                                                  --

                                                  ...the age will demand that analysis, criticism, evaluation, and satire
                                                  yield to celebration, charm, and niceness.

                                                  Paul Fussell, _Wartime_, discussing WWII
                                                • Kevin
                                                  His moniker is HeimdallR and his s.o. was Vidharr. Have not seen or heard from them since the fiasco of merging groups with Susan Grinquist (sp) and that was
                                                  Message 24 of 29 , Jan 14, 2007
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    His moniker is HeimdallR and his s.o. was Vidharr. Have not seen or
                                                    heard from them since the fiasco of merging groups with Susan Grinquist
                                                    (sp) and that was almost nine years ago.

                                                    As to hammer signs the only sign in primary texts was Thorr passing the
                                                    hammer over his goats' skins after eating them and over the ship at
                                                    Balders' funeral though iirc, that was in only one description of it.

                                                    Monikers - mine was my CB handle in the 70's and almost twenty years
                                                    later I learn that it was a good description of the properties of my
                                                    patron, Wod'n. It is the name of my business as well.

                                                    Wes thu hal

                                                    Night Winds

                                                    Karl Donaldsson wrote:
                                                    > Doug Freyburger spake:
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >> Crossing over the fence and hanging out with the milder ones among those
                                                    >> on the other side of it takes effort and thick skin. Even among the folks
                                                    >> on this list, who could stomach the company of that nurse guy in Georgia
                                                    >> who was always screaming at people calling them nazis for not being as
                                                    >> progressive as he was? This message has spent an hour in my drafts
                                                    >> folder and I've still drawn a blank on his name. Crap. Of course I will
                                                    >> remember as soon as I hit send ...
                                                    >>
                                                    >
                                                    > Pat. I considered it to be a rite of passage in on-line heathen lists to
                                                    > be added to his kill file for at least some period of time.
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >> Karl Donaldsson wrote:
                                                    >>
                                                    >>> I'm curious to
                                                    >>> know what the sticking point was, but but on curious enough to join GG.
                                                    >>> It was a little too ... well, folkish for me.
                                                    >>>
                                                    >> It's too folkish for me to participate at times. I chose to have a thick
                                                    >> skin
                                                    >> so that I can get their points. Over the years I've built an appreciation
                                                    >> for
                                                    >> what folkish should be so I can ignore the rough edges and the couple of
                                                    >> extremists. I figure if I am not there at all then I can have no
                                                    >> influence on
                                                    >> what it actually becomes while if I am there I might be able to steer some
                                                    >> in the direction I think it should go.
                                                    >>
                                                    >
                                                    > One of the reasons I still remain on OM. Heathenry is what I make it, as
                                                    > much as anyone else. If not me, then who? If not now, then when?
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > Frith upon your house
                                                    > Karl Donaldsson
                                                    > <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
                                                    > hfg@... http://hfg.ravenbanner.com
                                                    > Check out the Happy Fat Guy Pottery Studio!
                                                    > <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
                                                    > Member of the Kindred of Ravenswood
                                                    > Zionsville, Indiana USA
                                                    > http://www.iquest.net/~chaviland/Rindex.html
                                                    > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                                                    > To Vali! To Vengeance! To Honor! To Kin!
                                                    > _______________________________________________
                                                    > "Would you know more, or what?"
                                                    > Get Asatru education at http://www.asatru-u.org
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >



                                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  • clifford knutson
                                                    Hey I am both German and Norwegain I think too that people should follow ther God/ess of thier blood line but you can not tell people what who they cant and
                                                    Message 25 of 29 , Jan 14, 2007
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                                                      Hey I am both German and Norwegain I think too that people should follow ther God/ess of thier blood line but you can not tell people what who they cant and cannot worship what they want to belive and follow is up to them and hello Audrey I too am from Washington any way thats is my two cents.
                                                      Cliff

                                                      "Audrey C." <audreydc1983@...> wrote:
                                                      Time for me to get my two cents in:
                                                      I am Audrey, a 23 yr old female in Washington State, that has previously been quiet in this forum, content to read and learn from others. I have been studying asatru for two years - I was drawn by my ancestry (as I assume many people in this religion are - at least those few i have met). I believe that those who are not of German/Norse/Scandinavian descent should not be turned away - rather, I think that they should be counselled to look into the gods/godesses of their ancestors.Given enough time and introspection, if the person still feels genuinely drawn to Asatru, I believe that they should be welcomed into the fold. Who are we to question the gods - just like the christian god, Odin chooses his warriors, no matter what the color of their skin or ancestry.Anyone else want to share their outlook on this issue?

                                                      Wassail!
                                                      Audrey

                                                      ---------------------------------
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                                                    • Ratatask Thora
                                                      Since the question was asked I ll answer, though I m hoping this conversation (of a very volatile subject) will be able to be frithful. To be honest, I don t
                                                      Message 26 of 29 , Jan 14, 2007
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                                                        Since the question was asked I'll answer, though I'm hoping this conversation (of a very volatile subject) will be able to be frithful.

                                                        To be honest, I don't really understand the concept of people sticking within their "blood line" when it comes to religions that died out so long ago that pretty much no one has accurate geneology going back that far. Just because someone's great-great-great grandparents lived in the northern parts of Europe, doesn't mean that those people worshipped and practiced in the way that we today call Asatru. In fact, they were probably Christian. If you go back far enough to find ancestors that actually practiced the "old religion", there really is no way to say that the geneology is accurate. It's quite possible that somewhere back in your far distant ancestry, your family moved north from an entirely different region of the world, or took spouses from different regions of the world. Since we have no way of knowing our far distant ancestry for absolute certain, the concept that people can better connect to the gods of their personal ancestors seems completely irrelevant to
                                                        me. Escpecially for Americans whose families have been here long enough to have quite possibly mixed with numerous people of various other ancestries.

                                                        So while I think the idea of sticking with the beliefs of your own personal ancestors is a nice one, I don't see it as being a reasonable one in the current day.

                                                        I also don't believe that I have any idea why my gods would call to a particular person and I have no desire to second-guess the people they call to. If someone of an obviously different background (though I find that a ridiculous statement as well since I have a friend who is half-German and half-Korean who appears to be 100% Korean until you hear her German accent) feels called to by our gods, then I don't feel that it's my place to question that calling.

                                                        I also want to add that those of us currently living in the United States are living in a culture that is strongly influenced by Norse societal values. Because of that, I believe that Asatru is appealing to many people who find those values to be worthwhile. I also believe that Asatru feels comfortable and familiar to many people who grew up in this society with these values. There is very little Asian (for example) influences in our culture, so someone who is Asian in their bloodline who grew up fully integrated in our culture may feel like Asian religions are completely foriegn to them.

                                                        Keep in mind that the Norse often had foster or step-parents who had as much influence over their lives, values and traditions as their own blood-line family did. In some cases, we even hear of people being able to contact step-parents beyond the grave. In this same way, we can see people from other cultures who have moved to our culture and have been fully integrated into our culture as having been adopted or fostered in our culture. Thus they have as much right to access our Nordic ancestors as those with a Norse blood-line.

                                                        This holds true of anyone living in most of nothern and western Europe for that matter.

                                                        That's my outlook on this issue anyway.
                                                        Ratatask

                                                        clifford knutson <olav_98550@...> wrote:
                                                        Hey I am both German and Norwegain I think too that people should follow ther God/ess of thier blood line but you can not tell people what who they cant and cannot worship what they want to belive and follow is up to them and hello Audrey I too am from Washington any way thats is my two cents.
                                                        Cliff

                                                        "Audrey C." <audreydc1983@...> wrote:
                                                        Time for me to get my two cents in:
                                                        I am Audrey, a 23 yr old female in Washington State, that has previously been quiet in this forum, content to read and learn from others. I have been studying asatru for two years - I was drawn by my ancestry (as I assume many people in this religion are - at least those few i have met). I believe that those who are not of German/Norse/Scandinavian descent should not be turned away - rather, I think that they should be counselled to look into the gods/godesses of their ancestors.Given enough time and introspection, if the person still feels genuinely drawn to Asatru, I believe that they should be welcomed into the fold. Who are we to question the gods - just like the christian god, Odin chooses his warriors, no matter what the color of their skin or ancestry.Anyone else want to share their outlook on this issue?

                                                        Wassail!
                                                        Audrey


                                                        .





                                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                      • Karl Donaldsson
                                                        ... Don t get Pat confused with Richard Griffiths, aka HeimdallR. Pat was a different person, as far as I know, but I ve never met either of them. Pat is from
                                                        Message 27 of 29 , Jan 14, 2007
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                                                          Kevin spake:
                                                          > His moniker is HeimdallR and his s.o. was Vidharr. Have not seen or
                                                          > heard from them since the fiasco of merging groups with Susan Grinquist
                                                          > (sp) and that was almost nine years ago.

                                                          Don't get Pat confused with Richard Griffiths, aka HeimdallR. Pat was a
                                                          different person, as far as I know, but I've never met either of them.
                                                          Pat is from Florida, and Richard is from Atlanta GA.


                                                          Frith upon your house
                                                          Karl Donaldsson
                                                          <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
                                                          hfg@... http://hfg.ravenbanner.com
                                                          Check out the Happy Fat Guy Pottery Studio!
                                                          <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
                                                          Member of the Kindred of Ravenswood
                                                          Zionsville, Indiana USA
                                                          http://www.iquest.net/~chaviland/Rindex.html
                                                          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                                                          To Vali! To Vengeance! To Honor! To Kin!
                                                          _______________________________________________
                                                          "Would you know more, or what?"
                                                          Get Asatru education at http://www.asatru-u.org
                                                        • Jeff Peck
                                                          ... And Pat, politically speaking, is fairly conservative, where Griffiths was about as far the other way as one can get. Last rumor I heard, from an ex-member
                                                          Message 28 of 29 , Jan 15, 2007
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                                                            Karl Donaldsson wrote:
                                                            > Kevin spake:
                                                            >
                                                            >>His moniker is HeimdallR and his s.o. was Vidharr. Have not seen or
                                                            >>heard from them since the fiasco of merging groups with Susan Grinquist
                                                            >>(sp) and that was almost nine years ago.
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > Don't get Pat confused with Richard Griffiths, aka HeimdallR. Pat was a
                                                            > different person, as far as I know, but I've never met either of them.
                                                            > Pat is from Florida, and Richard is from Atlanta GA.
                                                            >
                                                            >


                                                            And Pat, politically speaking, is fairly conservative, where
                                                            Griffiths was about as far the other way as one can get. Last rumor I
                                                            heard, from an ex-member of Forn Sid is that Griffiths has left
                                                            heathenry entirely and become a Buddhist...
                                                            Lyulf

                                                            --
                                                            lyulfr@... | Moderator AsaHuntR
                                                            & Oregon Asatru Fellowship Lists
                                                            O_A_F-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                                            AsaHuntr-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                                            | Here's my wisdom for your use, as I learned it when the moose
                                                            and the Reindeer roamed where Paris roars tonight:-
                                                            " There are Nine and Sixty ways of constructing tribal lays,
                                                            And- every- single- one- of - them- is- right!!!" >R. Kipling
                                                          • morazzini
                                                            Lisa, You wrote: I also admit that I take an extreme position, as far as I can tell, within heathenry. I don t think the Folkish are heathen, basically. A
                                                            Message 29 of 29 , Jul 13 11:30 AM
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                                                              Lisa,

                                                              You wrote:

                                                              "I also admit that I take an extreme position, as far as I can tell,
                                                              within heathenry. I don't think the Folkish are heathen, basically. A
                                                              cultural club, perhaps, a political movement, well, if they are, they
                                                              aren't very effective, but, as far as I can tell, they aren't much
                                                              concerned with the gods."

                                                              Ummmmmmmm I think I love you! :::seriously::: It was great to see
                                                              that I am not the only person who shares this belief and I do wish
                                                              that more people who had strong feelings against the "Folkish" types
                                                              would speak out.

                                                              It was because of the "folk" that I left Asatru in 1998 (I actually
                                                              went into and got my BA and MA in Religous Studies, spiritually I
                                                              went into a broad study of European Shamanism) and why I have
                                                              struggled on and off these years with a huge attachment to Odhinn,
                                                              Viking history-culture-religions, a deep Love for the Gods and
                                                              Goddesses of old, but have always felt ostricised from Asatru because
                                                              I just don't want to be anywhere near the "folk." This is not meant
                                                              to start a war here obviously, I'm sure they don't like me all that
                                                              much either.

                                                              Recently (and there have been occasional extended stretches
                                                              inbetween), I have decided to try and be a bit stubborn and stand by
                                                              what I love and believe in, but those old feelings of just not liking
                                                              the "folk" are always with me. My experiences with their racism
                                                              (which they mask as an interest in "ancestry"), their borderline if
                                                              not flat out neo-Nazism, leaves me very unhappy with Asatru, but
                                                              maybe its time I took some of that power away from them that i give
                                                              them and just enjoy being myself.

                                                              Your post here really gave me some comfort that this Faith is
                                                              attracting and cultivating some more open minded and educated people.

                                                              Thank You!

                                                              Peace--
                                                              Dario


                                                              --- In Asatru-U@yahoogroups.com, Lissa <qibhom@...> wrote:
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              > on 01/12/2007 12:48 PM Manny Olds said the following:
                                                              >
                                                              > > It is hard to manage the discussion as neatly as you would like.
                                                              >
                                                              > Quite so.
                                                              >
                                                              > > If we are not talking about describing the differences between the
                                                              > > groups, I restrict slurs pretty stringently. Once we start talking
                                                              > > about those issues, I don't see how to avoid it, though. Knowing
                                                              that
                                                              > > the type of heathenism Lissa represents thinks that some other
                                                              type is
                                                              > > tainted by Nazi associations (e.g.) IS the point of the exercise.
                                                              >
                                                              > I find the Folkish are tainted by racism. All of them. Only a sub-
                                                              set
                                                              > are tainted by Nazism. Frankly, I think the Nazis are pretty
                                                              laughable.
                                                              > I've known a few. Loosers. I have an easier time taking the John
                                                              > Birchers seriously.
                                                              >
                                                              > I also admit that I take an extreme position, as far as I can tell,
                                                              > within heathenry. I don't think the Folkish are heathen, basically.
                                                              A
                                                              > cultural club, perhaps, a political movement, well, if they are,
                                                              they
                                                              > aren't very effective, but, as far as I can tell, they aren't much
                                                              > concerned with the gods.
                                                              >
                                                              > > As far as I could tell, we lost the folkish when they were
                                                              prevented
                                                              > > from launching attacks out of just about every topic that was
                                                              brought
                                                              > > up. I never kicked them off the list--they just closed their
                                                              notebooks
                                                              > > and left. I wish they had stayed.
                                                              >
                                                              > Believe it or, I do, too. When they take their toys, and limit
                                                              > themselves to their own sandboxes, they eliminate the possibility
                                                              of
                                                              > communication.
                                                              >
                                                              > And, I do so love a good argument.
                                                              >
                                                              > Be well,
                                                              > Lissa
                                                              > --
                                                              >
                                                              > Jokes were to communism what myths were to ancient Greece:
                                                              anonymous,
                                                              > oral stories which both represented and shaped people's views and
                                                              actions.
                                                              >
                                                              > Ben Lewis, "Hammer & Tickle," Prospect Magazine, May, 2006
                                                              >
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