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Re: Question on NVN and Sagas

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  • Larry
    ... I ... Tyr, ... still ... stepped ... bindings ... old ... I ... list ... the ... In the saga you refer to there is a price for the God s having to use
    Message 1 of 7 , Jul 7, 2006
      --- In Asatru-U@yahoogroups.com, "Heather Heyser" <enoettil@...>
      wrote:
      >
      >
      > Greetings…
      >
      > I have not posted in a long time, however; I have been reading all
      > posts. I have a question of you all. I asked my husband his
      > thoughts on this subject and now I pose the question to you, so I
      > can get differing view points.
      >
      > Last night, whilst reading to my four year old, stories from the
      > sagas, I started to wonder about the Nine Virtues. Correct me if
      I
      > am wrong, but is not one of the virtues that of Truth and Honour?
      >
      > The reason why I ask, is while reading the story of Fenris and
      Tyr,
      > I noticed that even though the Gods promised Fenris that if the
      > binding was too tight, they would remove it at once. Fenris,
      still
      > not feeling comfortable with this idea refused; so then Tyr
      stepped
      > in and offered to put his hand into Fenris' mouth, as a promise to
      > Fenris that nothing would happen to him. Well we all know what
      > happened then; Fenris finding that he could not remove the
      bindings
      > bite off Tyr's hand.
      >
      > My question is this… how do I explain that even though the NVN are
      > rules, and we should follow them, the Gods didn't? My four year
      old
      > is young yet, and still learning…
      > I don't think he will come up with this question as of yet…but it
      > will come at some point.
      > I would like to be able to answer him with a clear answer, and so
      I
      > ask all of you for your opinions.
      >
      > Come to think of it, that is not the only example of the
      > Gods "bending the truth", as it were. Take for instance Freyja.
      > Does she not `bend the truth" with shape changing? And Thor,
      > dressing as Freyja fooling Thrym, to get back his Hammer…. The
      list
      > goes on...
      >
      > Is this a case of do as I say, not do as I do? Or is it more in
      the
      > light of even the God/dess' are continually learning?
      >
      > In Frith,
      >
      > Gypsydove
      >
      In the saga you refer to there is a price for the God's having to
      use deception ,this is the moral for your child that there is a
      price to pay if you do not up hold the six foald goal and the nine
      noble virtues.
    • Doug Freyburger
      ... Hail the preservers of the heritage! ... A bit of a nit - This is about the Eddas not the sagas. Why bring this point up? Relative age and so relative
      Message 2 of 7 , Jul 8, 2006
        Heather Heyser wrote:
        >
        > Last night, whilst reading to my four year old,
        > stories from the sagas

        Hail the preservers of the heritage!

        > I started to wonder about
        > the Nine Virtues. Correct me if I am wrong, but
        > is not one of the virtues that of Truth and
        > Honour?
        >
        > The reason why I ask, is while reading the story
        > of Fenris and Tyr,

        A bit of a nit - This is about the Eddas not the
        sagas. Why bring this point up? Relative age and
        so relative degree of symbolic encoding.

        The NNV come from the modern age since 1970 CE. I've
        seen discussion that they are cited from some ancient
        source but the citations don't seem to work well.
        Being so modern, the NNV are explicit statements with
        little attempt at poetic imagery.

        The sagas come from the Icelandic settlement era.
        They predate the invention of the novel, but they
        are approximately novelizations of Icelandic history.
        They have points exaggerated, plot lines reordered,
        historical tales mixed in order to tell a lively
        entertaining tale. Even though they are "based on a
        true story" as the modern expression goes they are
        old enough and retold enough that they are no longer
        accurate depictions of events. They have lessons
        within them. Burnt Njal is a huge lesson about what
        happens when families dishonor themselves by accepted
        wereguild and then restarting a feud for example.

        The Eddas were ancient in the Icelandic settlement
        era. They encode lessons about live in a very
        symbolic manner.

        > I noticed that even though the Gods promised
        > Fenris that if the binding was too tight, they
        > would remove it at once. Fenris, still not
        > feeling comfortable with this idea refused; so
        > then Tyr stepped in and offered to put his hand
        > into Fenris' mouth, as a promise to Fenris that
        > nothing would happen to him. Well we all know
        > what happened then; Fenris finding that he could
        > not remove the bindings bite off Tyr's hand.
        >
        > My question is this… how do I explain that even
        > though the NVN are rules,

        Modern rules even though they are good ones.

        > and we should follow them, the Gods didn't?

        Exactly. And they paid the price of failing to be
        honest.

        > I would like to be able to answer him with a clear
        > answer, and so I ask all of you for your opinions.

        It's an Eddic tale so it's ancient Lore. It would
        be very poor ancient lore if it only had one lesson.
        Paying the price of lying barely even scratches the
        surface of the layers of the onion in this tale.

        > The list goes on...

        Odin giving up his honor for the runes, too. That
        one shows that is not just mightier than the sword,
        writing systems are mightier than the truth itself.
        and their ability to preserve ancient lore is so
        great that even though no one ever recites the Eddas
        any more, many of us still read them and remember
        the Aesir.

        > Or is it more in the light of even the God/dess'
        > are continually learning?

        That's another layer.

        Why was Fenris bound not killed? Maybe killing him
        would destroy the universe. Maybe his violence will
        be needed at Ragnarok to power the creation of the
        next cycle. Maybe entropy CAN NOT be killed and even
        though the ancients didn't have the concept of
        entropy they sure would have understood the concept
        if it were presented to them.

        Why was Tyr willing to sacrafice his hand? Because
        he was willing to redeem the other wights and that
        has made him a hero.

        Why was it his right hand? Tyr Blotar are used to
        bless weapons and tools. It's symbolic that he has
        progressed from fighting soldier to leading general
        or king who no longer goes to the front of the melee.
        Note that I can think of at least two other tales in
        the lore that are symbolic of this transition from
        the front of conflict to a supporting and leading
        role.

        Why were the other god(desse)s unwilling to offer
        themselves? Because they weren't willing to lie
        because they understood the principles from which
        the NNV were so recently derived.

        Why was it necessary to lie? Because the suvival of
        the universe is more important than any notion of
        personal honor and every being is subject to events
        within the universe. Except Fenris who's suvject to
        events both within and without.

        Why did Loki bear Fenris in the first place? The
        tale of each of Loki's three well known children
        contains its own sequence of lessons just like the
        list I've suggested above.

        Hail Asgard!
        Doug Freyburger
      • Lissa
        On Sat, 8 Jul 2006 11:40:54 -0700 (PDT), Doug Freyburger wrote ... No. They were written down in the Christian era, by a Christian. They stories were older,
        Message 3 of 7 , Jul 8, 2006
          On Sat, 8 Jul 2006 11:40:54 -0700 (PDT), Doug Freyburger wrote

          > The Eddas were ancient in the Icelandic settlement
          > era.

          No. They were written down in the Christian era, by a Christian. They stories
          were older, but we don't know how they were told in the pre-Christian era. It
          is nearly certain they were told a number of different ways.

          Be well,
          Lissa
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