Re: Question on NVN and Sagas
- --- In Asatru-U@yahoogroups.com, "Heather Heyser" <enoettil@...>
> I have not posted in a long time, however; I have been reading all
> posts. I have a question of you all. I asked my husband his
> thoughts on this subject and now I pose the question to you, so I
> can get differing view points.
> Last night, whilst reading to my four year old, stories from the
> sagas, I started to wonder about the Nine Virtues. Correct me if
> am wrong, but is not one of the virtues that of Truth and Honour?Tyr,
> The reason why I ask, is while reading the story of Fenris and
> I noticed that even though the Gods promised Fenris that if thestill
> binding was too tight, they would remove it at once. Fenris,
> not feeling comfortable with this idea refused; so then Tyrstepped
> in and offered to put his hand into Fenris' mouth, as a promise tobindings
> Fenris that nothing would happen to him. Well we all know what
> happened then; Fenris finding that he could not remove the
> bite off Tyr's hand.old
> My question is this how do I explain that even though the NVN are
> rules, and we should follow them, the Gods didn't? My four year
> is young yet, and still learningI
> I don't think he will come up with this question as of yet but it
> will come at some point.
> I would like to be able to answer him with a clear answer, and so
> ask all of you for your opinions.list
> Come to think of it, that is not the only example of the
> Gods "bending the truth", as it were. Take for instance Freyja.
> Does she not `bend the truth" with shape changing? And Thor,
> dressing as Freyja fooling Thrym, to get back his Hammer . The
> goes on...the
> Is this a case of do as I say, not do as I do? Or is it more in
> light of even the God/dess' are continually learning?In the saga you refer to there is a price for the God's having to
> In Frith,
use deception ,this is the moral for your child that there is a
price to pay if you do not up hold the six foald goal and the nine
- Heather Heyser wrote:
>Hail the preservers of the heritage!
> Last night, whilst reading to my four year old,
> stories from the sagas
> I started to wonder aboutA bit of a nit - This is about the Eddas not the
> the Nine Virtues. Correct me if I am wrong, but
> is not one of the virtues that of Truth and
> The reason why I ask, is while reading the story
> of Fenris and Tyr,
sagas. Why bring this point up? Relative age and
so relative degree of symbolic encoding.
The NNV come from the modern age since 1970 CE. I've
seen discussion that they are cited from some ancient
source but the citations don't seem to work well.
Being so modern, the NNV are explicit statements with
little attempt at poetic imagery.
The sagas come from the Icelandic settlement era.
They predate the invention of the novel, but they
are approximately novelizations of Icelandic history.
They have points exaggerated, plot lines reordered,
historical tales mixed in order to tell a lively
entertaining tale. Even though they are "based on a
true story" as the modern expression goes they are
old enough and retold enough that they are no longer
accurate depictions of events. They have lessons
within them. Burnt Njal is a huge lesson about what
happens when families dishonor themselves by accepted
wereguild and then restarting a feud for example.
The Eddas were ancient in the Icelandic settlement
era. They encode lessons about live in a very
> I noticed that even though the Gods promisedModern rules even though they are good ones.
> Fenris that if the binding was too tight, they
> would remove it at once. Fenris, still not
> feeling comfortable with this idea refused; so
> then Tyr stepped in and offered to put his hand
> into Fenris' mouth, as a promise to Fenris that
> nothing would happen to him. Well we all know
> what happened then; Fenris finding that he could
> not remove the bindings bite off Tyr's hand.
> My question is this how do I explain that even
> though the NVN are rules,
> and we should follow them, the Gods didn't?Exactly. And they paid the price of failing to be
> I would like to be able to answer him with a clearIt's an Eddic tale so it's ancient Lore. It would
> answer, and so I ask all of you for your opinions.
be very poor ancient lore if it only had one lesson.
Paying the price of lying barely even scratches the
surface of the layers of the onion in this tale.
> The list goes on...Odin giving up his honor for the runes, too. That
one shows that is not just mightier than the sword,
writing systems are mightier than the truth itself.
and their ability to preserve ancient lore is so
great that even though no one ever recites the Eddas
any more, many of us still read them and remember
> Or is it more in the light of even the God/dess'That's another layer.
> are continually learning?
Why was Fenris bound not killed? Maybe killing him
would destroy the universe. Maybe his violence will
be needed at Ragnarok to power the creation of the
next cycle. Maybe entropy CAN NOT be killed and even
though the ancients didn't have the concept of
entropy they sure would have understood the concept
if it were presented to them.
Why was Tyr willing to sacrafice his hand? Because
he was willing to redeem the other wights and that
has made him a hero.
Why was it his right hand? Tyr Blotar are used to
bless weapons and tools. It's symbolic that he has
progressed from fighting soldier to leading general
or king who no longer goes to the front of the melee.
Note that I can think of at least two other tales in
the lore that are symbolic of this transition from
the front of conflict to a supporting and leading
Why were the other god(desse)s unwilling to offer
themselves? Because they weren't willing to lie
because they understood the principles from which
the NNV were so recently derived.
Why was it necessary to lie? Because the suvival of
the universe is more important than any notion of
personal honor and every being is subject to events
within the universe. Except Fenris who's suvject to
events both within and without.
Why did Loki bear Fenris in the first place? The
tale of each of Loki's three well known children
contains its own sequence of lessons just like the
list I've suggested above.
- On Sat, 8 Jul 2006 11:40:54 -0700 (PDT), Doug Freyburger wrote
> The Eddas were ancient in the Icelandic settlementNo. They were written down in the Christian era, by a Christian. They stories
were older, but we don't know how they were told in the pre-Christian era. It
is nearly certain they were told a number of different ways.