Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [Asatru-U] Re: Getting Started (Again)

Expand Messages
  • Rick A. Riedlinger
    Hi Arlie, First let me say I am happy to see someone take the horsed and flog it onwards. ... specifically, or to the idea of this kind of course having
    Message 1 of 13 , Oct 22, 2002
    • 0 Attachment
      Hi Arlie,

      First let me say I am happy to see someone take the horsed and flog it
      onwards.

      >I'm confused. I'm not sure whether your objection here is to the Eddas
      specifically, or to the idea of this kind of course having required texts. <

      My reply was just an immediate reaction to the word 'required'. Even to me,
      the Eddas are valuable. However, I have never liked the lack of awareness in
      general as to their late date and likely Christian influences.

      ++> I do know what you mean, but I would be very reluctant to recommend
      > any one bookseller.

      Oh dear. I hadn't even though of that aspect. ++

      A list can be made. I have always favored easy-to-use, buy through a heathen
      org (like Frigga's Web) recommendation.

      ++> Do you mean other IE or other religions in general? This is a good
      > idea in general, I think.

      Both. <snip> I also
      think that the big world religions have addressed a number of problems
      that modern reconstructionists have never thought of, <snip>++

      I see what you mean. I like this. Can it be scaled in degree to an
      intermediate level?

      ++> Do we wish to teach, or rather provide the tools for people to teach
      > themselves? I vote the latter.

      Both. I don't see how a good teacher can fail to be primarily providing
      tools. ++

      Yes, but take the Beginner's Course for example. No effort was made to
      teach, only to provide places to learn. Maybe I am splitting semantic hairs,
      but this is about the best I can explain myself. If something more formal
      comes about, it is in danger of pushing -innocently- an ideology. I want no
      typewriter anti-racists-under-every-rug nor closet supremacists actually
      'teaching' under our umbrella. Influences from people who contributed
      nothing were, IMO, detrimental to the Beginner's Course. Let's keep to the
      mandate- such as it is- we have from Frigga's Web.

      Book suggestion:

      Jan de Vries: Perspectives in the History of Religion; ISBN 0520033000; OOP
      but generally available for less than $10US. Covers most of the 'isms' and
      how the perceptions of religions have developed and changed over the
      centuries.

      êr ôk friðu,
      (frith and good harvest)

      Rick
    • Lissa
      ... We ve stalled twice. While it would probably be good to look at that stuff, I m leery of stalling again. However, I haven t come up with a new angle,
      Message 2 of 13 , Oct 22, 2002
      • 0 Attachment
        On Mon, 2002-10-21 at 14:58, Arlie Stephens wrote:

        > Here's my theory on where we go from here.
        >
        > 1) Dig up the old discussions and especially the outlines from a year
        > or so ago.

        We've stalled twice. While it would probably be good to look at that
        stuff, I'm leery of stalling again. However, I haven't come up with a
        new angle, unless it be that we all go off, design a mini-course on
        something (anything, really), and bring it back to the group for
        filleting.

        > 2) Kick them around a bit more. Is this still what we want to cover? What
        > needs to be clarified?

        *sigh* This is one of the places we got stuck. I'd suggest just
        starting on something, anything.

        > 3) Think about and suggest existing texts. We're going to want both
        > (translated) primary sources and secondary material, both academic and
        > religious.

        This was another. We got bogged in the whole "in print, out of print"
        bit. I'd suggest that we not worry about what is in and out of print,
        and rather that someone (probably me, as the local librarian) write up
        how to track down oop sources, link to some good used book sites, beg
        folks for xerox copies, etc. Even trying to track what is in and out of
        print would be complex, unless we come up with a booklist and someone
        commits to checking it every month.

        Actually, something I'd love to see, but don't have the skills to code,
        would be a website with comments, kind of like what amazon.com and
        bn.com do, so folks could comment on what is on the booklist.

        > 4) What needs to be written? Who can write what? Do we need to do more
        > research?

        We always need to do more research. We are heathens <g>.

        I'm almost picturing a selection of essays on various topics by various
        folks. Then filling in the activities and finding the holes.

        > Other concerns:
        >
        > Overlap with the other intermediate courses. Pretty much all of these courses
        > should (I think) presuppose familiarity with the Eddas, for example. Or if
        > not presuppose it, require it as part of the course. But that means that we're
        > duplicating reading recommendations, to fulfill our plan of making the three
        > intermediate courses independent of each other.

        The beginning course was really elementary. So, we can't assume
        familiarity with anything off the web, including the Eddas, Tacitus or
        Saxo.

        Since this is all self-paced and more or less a smorgasbord, I see no
        problem with duplicating things. Especially if we use a slightly
        different angle in the intermediate course.

        > Comparative and contextual material. My personal reading has recently been
        > mostly outside the domain of Asatru proper, even though I'm reading for
        > Asatru related reasons. I'd like to give people a context of relationships
        > with gods in other religions, not just ours. But how far can we go before
        > the whole thing becomes pretty much ridiculous? (Not everyone is the same
        > kind of book-not as I am, much as I wish more people were.)

        Contextual material is critical. Comparative material might belong in
        the advanced, or as a sidebar. Then again, I'm not sure where to draw
        the lines. Is, say, Kaplan contextual or comparative? Or both?

        Be well,
        Lissa

        --

        You can't depend on your judgment when your
        imagination is out of focus.
        Mark Twain
      • Lissa
        ... We can t require anything unless we are handing out credentials. Gods forbid we do that. ... One can recommend a bunch, point out the joys of developing a
        Message 3 of 13 , Oct 22, 2002
        • 0 Attachment
          On Tue, 2002-10-22 at 09:46, heathensailor wrote:
          > --- In Asatru-U@y..., Arlie Stephens <arlie@w...> wrote:
          > >Pretty much all of these courses
          > > should (I think) presuppose familiarity with the Eddas, for
          > example. Or if
          > > not presuppose it, require it as part of the course.
          >
          > Require? No.

          We can't require anything unless we are handing out credentials. Gods
          forbid we do that.

          > > Many of them seem to me to be close to "must read" material for
          > intermediates.
          > > (Perhaps not for the god course, though.) What do we do about this,
          > other
          > > than recommending ABE books (www.abebooks.com)?
          >
          > I do know what you mean, but I would be very reluctant to recommend
          > any one bookseller.

          One can recommend a bunch, point out the joys of developing a good
          relationship with a local bookstore (new or used) and expound on the
          nirvana of your local public library. That is enough options.

          > I still do not know if I think more advanced courses (than the
          > beginners) are a good idea.

          I thought the beginners was a bad idea, Rick, so we are even <g>.

          > Do we wish to teach, or rather provide the tools for people to teach
          > themselves? I vote the latter.

          Me, too, although I see this more as "here is the stuff we've found out
          the hard way" than "here is the canonical way to become heathen."
          Perhaps combined with a bit of "I'm weirder than you are, nyah, nyah,
          nyah" <g>.

          Be well,
          Lissa

          --

          You can't depend on your judgment when your
          imagination is out of focus.
          Mark Twain
        • Manny Olds
          ... I think it is a good place to get into the range of viewpoints that are common. For example, for a gods course, we could get into what hard polytheism
          Message 4 of 13 , Oct 23, 2002
          • 0 Attachment
            On 22 Oct 2002, Lissa wrote:

            > Me, too, although I see this more as "here is the stuff we've found out
            > the hard way" than "here is the canonical way to become heathen."
            > Perhaps combined with a bit of "I'm weirder than you are, nyah, nyah,
            > nyah" <g>.

            I think it is a good place to get into the range of viewpoints that are
            common. For example, for a gods course, we could get into what "hard
            polytheism" means and where "the archetypes" come into the discussion and
            how these are different from pantheism or panentheism. We could also cover
            things like how our modern pan-Aesic cult is different historically from
            the complex of henotheistic cults of our predecessors.

            I think it would be very interesting to develop a list of Hard Questions
            for discussion and include a range of very short notes by experienced
            heathens on their thoughts on those Hard Questions. For example, what do
            the gods get from us? We know that human views of the gods have
            changed--have the gods changed? How would we discover or add a new
            pantheon member to our understanding? What do the gods *do* and why?

            Manny
          • Arlie Stephens
            ... This fits my picture, too. I m not sure if it s the right picture, but it s a place to start. ... I m tempted to start with a list of books that all/most
            Message 5 of 13 , Oct 23, 2002
            • 0 Attachment
              On Tue, Oct 22, 2002 at 11:42:33PM -0400, Lissa wrote:

              > > 4) What needs to be written? Who can write what? Do we need to do more
              > > research?
              >
              > We always need to do more research. We are heathens <g>.
              >
              > I'm almost picturing a selection of essays on various topics by various
              > folks. Then filling in the activities and finding the holes.

              This fits my picture, too. I'm not sure if it's the right picture, but it's
              a place to start.

              > The beginning course was really elementary. So, we can't assume
              > familiarity with anything off the web, including the Eddas, Tacitus or
              > Saxo.

              I'm tempted to start with a list of books that all/most intermediate heathens
              should have read, before starting any of the intermediate classes, with
              explanations. Of course this may just be a duplicate of any of the basic
              reading lists, and I think we linked one of them (Groa's?) from the beginner's
              course.

              Basically, though, I think that an intermediate student who hasn't read the
              Eddas is a contradiction in terms. I'd like to add Tacitus, and Beowulf
              to that list too. (Saxo too, but that may be pushing things.) Also enough
              history to know the 'Migration Age' from the 'Viking period', and the
              geography to match. And enough about the runes to recognize the Elder
              Futhark, and know how little of modern rune work is solidly based on lore.
              And that's the easy stuff, with perhaps a too scholarly focus; I think there
              should be a similar list of basics about the modern heathen manifestation,
              but I'm not so sure that the books for that exist, or are uncontroversial.
              (They should surely have read at least one detailed "how to be heathen" book,
              but the lot of them are out of print as usual, except, I think, _True Hearth_,
              and I personally don't much like any of the ones I've read.)

              > Since this is all self-paced and more or less a smorgasbord, I see no
              > problem with duplicating things. Especially if we use a slightly
              > different angle in the intermediate course.

              Repetition is also quite helpful in learning, especially with difrent angles.

              > > Comparative and contextual material. My personal reading has recently been
              > > mostly outside the domain of Asatru proper, even though I'm reading for
              > > Asatru related reasons. I'd like to give people a context of relationships
              > > with gods in other religions, not just ours. But how far can we go before
              > > the whole thing becomes pretty much ridiculous? (Not everyone is the same
              > > kind of book-not as I am, much as I wish more people were.)
              >
              > Contextual material is critical. Comparative material might belong in
              > the advanced, or as a sidebar. Then again, I'm not sure where to draw
              > the lines. Is, say, Kaplan contextual or comparative? Or both?

              I'm not sure. I don't think I've read it. From what I remember hearing,
              it tends to iritate most heathens; I believe the author didn't much like
              us. (I'd rather start with books that won't annoy people too much.)

              --
              Arlie

              (Arlie Stephens arlie@...)
            • Arlie Stephens
              Hi Rick, ... Thanks. ... That works. If we have a list, we aren t acting as some bookstore s agent. Unfortunately the OOP books won t have ways to get them
              Message 6 of 13 , Oct 23, 2002
              • 0 Attachment
                Hi Rick,

                On Tue, Oct 22, 2002 at 11:05:00AM -0500, Rick A. Riedlinger wrote:
                >
                > Hi Arlie,
                >
                > First let me say I am happy to see someone take the horsed and flog it
                > onwards.

                Thanks.

                > ++> I do know what you mean, but I would be very reluctant to recommend
                > > any one bookseller.
                >
                > Oh dear. I hadn't even though of that aspect. ++
                >
                > A list can be made. I have always favored easy-to-use, buy through a heathen
                > org (like Frigga's Web) recommendation.

                That works. If we have a list, we aren't acting as some bookstore's agent.
                Unfortunately the OOP books won't have ways to get them through any heathen
                org; there it's a case of going to where the books are, or the best search
                services.

                > ++> Do we wish to teach, or rather provide the tools for people to teach
                > > themselves? I vote the latter.
                >
                > Both. I don't see how a good teacher can fail to be primarily providing
                > tools. ++
                >
                > Yes, but take the Beginner's Course for example. No effort was made to
                > teach, only to provide places to learn. Maybe I am splitting semantic hairs,
                > but this is about the best I can explain myself. If something more formal
                > comes about, it is in danger of pushing -innocently- an ideology. I want no
                > typewriter anti-racists-under-every-rug nor closet supremacists actually
                > 'teaching' under our umbrella. Influences from people who contributed
                > nothing were, IMO, detrimental to the Beginner's Course. Let's keep to the
                > mandate- such as it is- we have from Frigga's Web.

                I think it's semantic. I see the selection and introduction of materials
                as teaching, and I'm pretty sure we'll have to write some of them ourselves.
                (When we get that far, I've got my own little essay on relationships with
                gods to suggest .. not as "the answer" but as an example.)

                > Book suggestion:
                >
                > Jan de Vries: Perspectives in the History of Religion; ISBN 0520033000; OOP
                > but generally available for less than $10US. Covers most of the 'isms' and
                > how the perceptions of religions have developed and changed over the
                > centuries.

                Now that's one I haven't read. I'm putting it on my "look for this" list.
                (This religion has done terrible things to my book budget and need for shelf
                space :-))

                --
                Arlie

                (Arlie Stephens arlie@...)
              • Arlie Stephens
                ... I like this. I don t think we can go too deep, and stay intermediate, but these are things that people often don t get . ... Good idea. Discussion
                Message 7 of 13 , Oct 23, 2002
                • 0 Attachment
                  On Wed, Oct 23, 2002 at 06:47:57AM -0400, Manny Olds wrote:
                  >
                  > I think it is a good place to get into the range of viewpoints that are
                  > common. For example, for a gods course, we could get into what "hard
                  > polytheism" means and where "the archetypes" come into the discussion and
                  > how these are different from pantheism or panentheism. We could also cover
                  > things like how our modern pan-Aesic cult is different historically from
                  > the complex of henotheistic cults of our predecessors.

                  I like this. I don't think we can go too deep, and stay intermediate,
                  but these are things that people often don't "get".

                  > I think it would be very interesting to develop a list of Hard Questions
                  > for discussion and include a range of very short notes by experienced
                  > heathens on their thoughts on those Hard Questions. For example, what do
                  > the gods get from us? We know that human views of the gods have
                  > changed--have the gods changed? How would we discover or add a new
                  > pantheon member to our understanding? What do the gods *do* and why?

                  Good idea. Discussion questions will hopefully keep people thinking, and
                  there are some pretty hard ones available ... not well solved in heathenry
                  as it stands, IMNSHO.

                  --
                  Arlie

                  (Arlie Stephens arlie@...)
                • Manny Olds
                  ... No, Kaplan was pretty cool. Adler is the one who thinks we all are disturbing. Manny
                  Message 8 of 13 , Oct 23, 2002
                  • 0 Attachment
                    On Wed, 23 Oct 2002, Arlie Stephens wrote:

                    > > the lines. Is, say, Kaplan contextual or comparative? Or both?
                    >
                    > I'm not sure. I don't think I've read it. From what I remember hearing,
                    > it tends to iritate most heathens; I believe the author didn't much like
                    > us. (I'd rather start with books that won't annoy people too much.)

                    No, Kaplan was pretty cool. Adler is the one who thinks we all are
                    disturbing.

                    Manny
                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.