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Re: [Asatru-U] Re: Teaching gods

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  • Manny Olds
    ... Explain this more, please. Don t believe in it? Don t approve of it? Don t think it is desirable? Don t think we should cover it in the course? Manny Olds
    Message 1 of 20 , May 28, 2002
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      On Fri, 24 May 2002, svalich wrote:

      > I suppose the "yes" was unclear; I meant to say that there should be
      > some spiritual level in the intermediate course, but I don't really
      > agree with the specific idea of being a friend to a given diety.

      Explain this more, please. Don't believe in it? Don't approve of it? Don't
      think it is desirable? Don't think we should cover it in the course?


      Manny Olds (oldsma@...) of Riverdale Park, Maryland, USA

      "Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not
      become a monster. For when you look into an abyss, the abyss also looks
      into you." -- Nietzsche
    • Cyndy
      ... I don t do either garb or amber, and I m only a fireball-casting mage in computer games.... CYndy The truth may very well be out there, but the lies are
      Message 2 of 20 , May 28, 2002
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        On 24 May 2002 at 19:11, svalich wrote:

        > didn't mean to inferr that one has to be some fireball-casting mage
        > to be heathen, but I do feel one should have some connection more so
        > than period garb and a penchant for amber.


        I don't do either garb or amber, and I'm only a fireball-casting mage
        in computer games....

        CYndy



        "The truth may very well be out there, but the lies are
        inside your head."
        -- Terry Pratchett

        Cup of Wonder: http://www.vireopub.org
      • Rick A. Riedlinger
        Hello all, I am finally coming back up to speed and hope to become more active. I think we should stick to examples, lots and lots of examples, when discussing
        Message 3 of 20 , May 29, 2002
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          Hello all,

          I am finally coming back up to speed and hope to become more active.

          I think we should stick to examples, lots and lots of examples, when
          discussing relationships with the gods.

          We might stress that there is no need to be a god-friend immediately or
          ever. Some people are more religious than others. Examples of relationships
          with wights will need to be dealt with hand-in-hand. I have recently run
          into a wide range of beliefs about wights that range from there are wights
          in everything to there are not any in the cities. This may be confusing for
          beginners moving on. It sure as hel is to me.

          Rick
        • Kevin Steffen
          Ok, so if we are going to need lots of examples, which appears to be the concensus, 1) where do we put our two horns worth in, then 2) what sort of peer
          Message 4 of 20 , May 29, 2002
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            Ok, so if we are going to need lots of examples, which appears to be the
            concensus, 1) where do we put our two horns worth in, then 2) what sort
            of peer review, which seems to be the other thing people are agreeing
            on, do we set up for giving the people taking the course an inkling of
            how some of the rest of us feel about the example.

            Night Winds

            Rick A. Riedlinger wrote:

            > Hello all,
            >
            > I am finally coming back up to speed and hope to become more active.
            >
            > I think we should stick to examples, lots and lots of examples, when
            > discussing relationships with the gods.
            >
            > We might stress that there is no need to be a god-friend immediately or
            > ever. Some people are more religious than others. Examples of relationships
            > with wights will need to be dealt with hand-in-hand. I have recently run
            > into a wide range of beliefs about wights that range from there are wights
            > in everything to there are not any in the cities. This may be confusing for
            > beginners moving on. It sure as hel is to me.
            >
            > Rick
            >
            >
            >
            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > Asatru-U-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
            >
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • Karl Donaldsson
            ... Sorry, Manny, it seems the more I speak, the less I say. ;-) I don t think it is essential to an understanding of one s own spirituality to connect with
            Message 5 of 20 , Jun 2, 2002
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              > On Fri, 24 May 2002, svalich wrote:
              >
              > > I suppose the "yes" was unclear; I meant to say that there should be
              > > some spiritual level in the intermediate course, but I don't really
              > > agree with the specific idea of being a friend to a given diety.
              >
              > Explain this more, please. Don't believe in it? Don't approve of it? Don't
              > think it is desirable? Don't think we should cover it in the course?

              Sorry, Manny, it seems the more I speak, the less I say. ;-)

              I don't think it is essential to an understanding of one's own spirituality
              to connect with any deity in particular. Yes, it's possible, and even
              likely, but I don't believe it should be "required" for a person to have
              such contact to go through the intermediate course.

              However, we should certainly encourage some spiritual contact with
              pseudo-intangible beings, whether wights, gods, etc. through whatever means
              is necessary or likely. It should not be considered that one is somehow
              "not getting it" if they do not, but they should certainly be able to
              realize that there are, indeed, powers at work beyond the realm of our five
              senses.

              I approve most highly that people seek such contact on their own, and it
              would certainly be instrumental in the acquisition of spiritual "knowledge"
              for the intermediate course, but I speak as one who believes that our gods
              are real, physical, tangible beings. Without getting too much into my own
              views, we know about things like atoms, where we never knew about them
              before. We know about quarks where we did not know of them before. I
              believe it is possible to develop senses to achieve such perceptions.
              Certainly at some point in any mind-altering experience (specifically, I
              recommend hallucinogens), one asks the question -- am I chemically tricking
              my brain into seeing things which are not there; or am I finally seeing
              things as they are for the first time? A similar question will be asked by
              any adherent to a religion, where they are interested in investing time and
              effort for some sort of reward (whether spiritual or otherwise) from said
              effort.

              At some point, a follower of Asatru will ask how to get in touch with the
              gods or weights, and it should be somewhat explainable, and this should be
              present in the intermediate course, as I feel it necessary that an
              individual have such surreal experience to truly recognize what lies before
              them.


              '/\` Frith upon your house
              //\\ Karl Donaldsson
              \\// mekboy@...
              `\/' http://www.geocities.com/svalich
              --------------------------------------------
              Member of the Kindred of Ravenswood
              Zionsville, Indiana USA
              http://www.iquest.net/~chaviland/Rindex.html
              ---------------------------------------------
              To Vali! To Vengeance! To Honor! To Kin!
              ===============================================
              ------> Would you know more, or what? <------
              Get Asatru education at http://www.asatru-u.org
              ===============================================
            • Lorrie Wood
              ... And the corollary questions: Is there a useful difference, and if it works, does it matter? -- Lorrie
              Message 6 of 20 , Jun 3, 2002
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                On Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 08:16:52PM -0500, Karl Donaldsson wrote:
                >
                > Certainly at some point in any mind-altering experience (specifically, I
                > recommend hallucinogens), one asks the question -- am I chemically tricking
                > my brain into seeing things which are not there; or am I finally seeing
                > things as they are for the first time? A similar question will be asked by
                > any adherent to a religion, where they are interested in investing time and
                > effort for some sort of reward (whether spiritual or otherwise) from said
                > effort.

                And the corollary questions: Is there a useful difference, and if
                it works, does it matter?

                -- Lorrie
              • Karl Donaldsson
                From: Lorrie Wood ... tricking ... by ... and ... said ... Well, some realists seem to believe there is a difference between fooling
                Message 7 of 20 , Jun 3, 2002
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                  From: "Lorrie Wood" <lwood@...>


                  > On Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 08:16:52PM -0500, Karl Donaldsson wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Certainly at some point in any mind-altering experience (specifically, I
                  > > recommend hallucinogens), one asks the question -- am I chemically
                  tricking
                  > > my brain into seeing things which are not there; or am I finally seeing
                  > > things as they are for the first time? A similar question will be asked
                  by
                  > > any adherent to a religion, where they are interested in investing time
                  and
                  > > effort for some sort of reward (whether spiritual or otherwise) from
                  said
                  > > effort.
                  >
                  > And the corollary questions: Is there a useful difference, and if
                  > it works, does it matter?

                  Well, some realists seem to believe there is a difference between fooling
                  oneself and actually perceiving something which others cannot. There is
                  only a difference, I think, if one chooses to recognize one, and that
                  difference may be important to a given individual. We may run into this
                  with the Intermediate Course, by some folks feeling they're not making such
                  a spiritual connection, because they can't believe it can be made. Then the
                  question of "is it possible" becomes more consuming than " can I do it."
                  For example, a man of my proportions is ill-suited to climb a free-hanging
                  rope. I still say it's not impossible, because as I become the Happy
                  Not-Nearly-So-Fat-As-I-Was-Before Guy, the task becomes more approachable.
                  Some fellows of my dimensions might consider the task impossible, without
                  even considering that, with the right training, the task is not only
                  possible, but likely to achieve. I don't how to make people realize the
                  step from possibility to likelihood, but I feel that the Intermediate course
                  should have, for each individual, that specific goal rolling around in the
                  back of one's mind.

                  It only matters how it works, again, to the individual. If one can only
                  contact the deities or wights or what-have-you via some hallucinogenic
                  delirium, they might then, (logically!) conclude that it's the stuff making
                  the connection, not them, without ever realizing that the substance in
                  question is actually just attenuating something they choose to perceive in
                  the first place. I think meditations, chants, trances, hypnosis, and so
                  forth seem to be more useful in this regard, since one might feel that they
                  are more in control of the situation than might otherwise be experienced via
                  chemical stimuli. Such meditations remove the possibility that some
                  external force is at work on their senses, when, in fact, the same chemical
                  changes in the body and brain are, in many cases, identical. I choose such
                  an example as myself since I have never had any success using meditations or
                  hypnosis (perhaps a lack of training, and skill are my culprit), and I had
                  some contact with certain substances before getting into heathenry. Now I
                  find my spiritual contacts are established, and that I have no need for any
                  substance to achieve what might be considered supernatural awareness to
                  certain things. Kind of like taking the training wheels off the bike. I
                  believe others find equal success from meditation, chanting, trances, and
                  hypnosis (or even other mental conditioning) without the need to resort to
                  using chemical substances. The good news seems to be that there is some
                  level of documentation in the lore which seems to support both takes on
                  opening doors of perception.

                  So, in summary, it only matters if the individual makes it matter. We throw
                  up more walls and obstacles for ourselves than any one, or every one, could
                  possibly put before us.


                  <soapbox>
                  As a society, we are generally trained to conform, as we are easier to
                  control. When one realizes that he has no master other than himself, and he
                  has no obstacles other than the one he places for himself, then the
                  connections may be made that are out of the realm of consideration. It took
                  some time to convince people that we revolved about the sun, and that the
                  Earth was not flat, mostly by people who had to open themselves up to the
                  idea that what they thought they knew to be true could, in fact, be
                  completely bollocks. I believe this is the hurdle which we of non-heathen
                  upbringing face, a hurdle which, hopefully, is decimated by successful
                  completion of the Beginner's course.
                  </soapbox>

                  Sorry for the long post.


                  '/\` Frith upon your house
                  //\\ Karl Donaldsson
                  \\// mekboy@...
                  `\/' http://www.geocities.com/svalich
                  --------------------------------------------
                  Member of the Kindred of Ravenswood
                  Zionsville, Indiana USA
                  http://www.iquest.net/~chaviland/Rindex.html
                  ---------------------------------------------
                  To Vali! To Vengeance! To Honor! To Kin!
                  ===============================================
                  ------> Would you know more, or what? <------
                  Get Asatru education at http://www.asatru-u.org
                  ===============================================
                • Kevin Steffen
                  Karl Donaldsson wrote: Much snipped...but aside as a youngster I too had said problem climbing rope until I took off my shoes and wrapped toes around rope and
                  Message 8 of 20 , Jun 4, 2002
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                    Karl Donaldsson wrote:

                    Much snipped...but aside as a youngster I too had said problem climbing rope until I took

                    off my shoes and wrapped toes around rope and went up hand over foot. :)

                    This next part is so good it ought to be the intro for the intermediate
                    course.


                    >
                    > <soapbox>
                    > As a society, we are generally trained to conform, as we are easier to
                    > control. When one realizes that he has no master other than himself, and he
                    > has no obstacles other than the one he places for himself, then the
                    > connections may be made that are out of the realm of consideration. It took
                    > some time to convince people that we revolved about the sun, and that the
                    > Earth was not flat, mostly by people who had to open themselves up to the
                    > idea that what they thought they knew to be true could, in fact, be
                    > completely bollocks. I believe this is the hurdle which we of non-heathen
                    > upbringing face, a hurdle which, hopefully, is decimated by successful
                    > completion of the Beginner's course.
                    > </soapbox>
                    >
                    > Sorry for the long post.
                    >
                    >


                    Wassail!

                    Night Winds
                  • tsdoughty@aol.com
                    In a message dated 6/3/02 11:53:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ... In this instance and for you as a learner, who would be more effective in helping you achieve
                    Message 9 of 20 , Jun 4, 2002
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                      In a message dated 6/3/02 11:53:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
                      mekboy@... writes:


                      > For example, a man of my proportions is ill-suited to climb a free-hanging
                      > rope. I still say it's not impossible, because as I become the Happy
                      > Not-Nearly-So-Fat-As-I-Was-Before Guy, the task becomes more approachable.
                      > Some fellows of my dimensions might consider the task impossible, without
                      > even considering that, with the right training, the task is not only
                      > possible, but likely to achieve. I don't how to make people realize the
                      > step from possibility to likelihood, but I feel that the Intermediate
                      > course
                      > should have, for each individual, that specific goal rolling around in the
                      > back of one's mind.
                      >

                      In this instance and for you as a learner, who would be more effective in
                      helping you achieve that: someone who has always been trim, in-shape, and
                      who can climb the rope with one hand while smoking a cigarette with the
                      other, or someone who him/herself once worked through the weight obstacle?
                      Would it make a difference?

                      Tim


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • svalich
                      ... free-hanging ... Happy ... approachable. ... without ... only ... realize the ... Intermediate ... around in the ... effective in ... shape, and ... the
                      Message 10 of 20 , Jun 4, 2002
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                        --- In Asatru-U@y..., tsdoughty@a... wrote:
                        > In a message dated 6/3/02 11:53:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
                        > mekboy@h... writes:
                        >
                        >
                        > > For example, a man of my proportions is ill-suited to climb a
                        free-hanging
                        > > rope. I still say it's not impossible, because as I become the
                        Happy
                        > > Not-Nearly-So-Fat-As-I-Was-Before Guy, the task becomes more
                        approachable.
                        > > Some fellows of my dimensions might consider the task impossible,
                        without
                        > > even considering that, with the right training, the task is not
                        only
                        > > possible, but likely to achieve. I don't how to make people
                        realize the
                        > > step from possibility to likelihood, but I feel that the
                        Intermediate
                        > > course
                        > > should have, for each individual, that specific goal rolling
                        around in the
                        > > back of one's mind.
                        > >
                        >
                        > In this instance and for you as a learner, who would be more
                        effective in
                        > helping you achieve that: someone who has always been trim, in-
                        shape, and
                        > who can climb the rope with one hand while smoking a cigarette with
                        the
                        > other, or someone who him/herself once worked through the weight
                        obstacle?
                        > Would it make a difference?

                        Now, that's a very interesting question.

                        My wife has recently joined Weight Watchers (and, by practice, I have
                        as well). We call it the "Food Police". Interestingly enough,
                        there's not 12-step program to cure food addicts, which is
                        interesting to note, since these work somewhat poorly, statistically,
                        for addicts of other substances. Regardless of this, my wife cringed
                        to hear the leader of th meetings there lost a whole 17 lbs. and has,
                        to everyone's shock and amazement, kept it off for three whole
                        years.

                        Those of us who need to lose like an entire human's worth look at
                        twinkies like that and know that losing 17 lbs when you're 325 can be
                        achieved in about three weeks of not having breakfast. The key is
                        not putting it back on. I think, for the first time, that this
                        program (even led by people who've never worn anything over a size 12
                        or even had to shop mail-order for clothes) is something that can be
                        stuck to, easily, and incorporated as a life-change.

                        Back to the substance-use analogy, one can experience the
                        supernatural with some conditions and substances. However, to achive
                        some level of supernatural awareness, one must be able to do it
                        without such aids. By the same token, I must be able to re-form my
                        views on food and what I allow my arms to convey to the mouth before
                        I can consider it a life change rather than a diet.

                        This takes some measure of mental foritude, force of will, and the
                        like to achieve, something a "diet" neither mandates nor requires,
                        which is why I imagine the long-term success rate of dieting is
                        equivalent to the long-term success rate of a 12-step program. We
                        dont' want to present Asatru as some sort of 12-step program, but
                        rather, a life-change. This is what makes is valuable and useful,
                        when you incorporate it into your life.

                        As an aside, and since you're asking (Tim gets all the too personal
                        info from me, darling), when I started looking into Asatru, my
                        somewhat Christian wife felt that I would "get over" Asatru, like it
                        was just a "phase." Well, I didn't look at it like it was something
                        new to try, but rather, something that was what I was looking for my
                        entire life. You have to want to change, and it has to be something
                        you're changing to that you have convinced yourself your life will be
                        better when you do make that change. It was, I did, and it has.

                        OK, having said that, back to your question:
                        It most certainly makes a difference to any person doing any thing
                        new to have the views and thoughts of someone who has made that
                        change themselves. There will always be people new to Asatru, but we
                        (collectively) will probably start having some kids now who have
                        never known anything but Asatru. I'd rather have someone climb up
                        that rope, look back at me, and say, "I couldn't do that 2 years
                        ago." I think the meat of the Intermediate course could come,
                        actually, from various personal accounts, rather than from
                        references, citations, and quotes. But, I realize this view is
                        colored by my own personal expereinces, and I wouldn't want to impose
                        such as a requirement for the course, unless there is a concesnus
                        that there is no better way.

                        Each of us has had some life-altering expereicne, where we are now
                        not what once we were. This could be massive weight loss which
                        turned into running marathons, coming out, or getting a higher
                        education. I don't think you'd've valued comments from a het like me
                        for What Now, and it only makes sense for me to look at other folks
                        who've lost weight to see how they've done it. You see the kids in
                        the StriDex ads, like they ever had a zit. You see the ladies int eh
                        cosmetics commecials, like they've ever had wrinkles. It just makse
                        sense for folks like us who've been in the place where they've been
                        to be giving our views on what to do next, since we came from non-
                        heathen upbringing.

                        Our services in this regard should be available, whether int he form
                        of personal accounts, e-mail, and the like. I'd like to think you're
                        one person who I've been able to offer at least one useful word of
                        advice, making all the other words of mine you've waded through worth
                        the effort. ;-)

                        I really beleive it makes a difference to me, and I think the
                        assumption that it makes a difference to others that I was then where
                        they are now is a valid assumption of some number of specifica
                        cases. Perhaps there are those out there who need not such role
                        models or the like, and hooray for them, but I ain't one of them.

                        Overcoming adversity has little to do with solving a problem or
                        choosing a correct path -- it has everything to do with realizing
                        adversity is something that you, alone, have created. Pointing the
                        finger at others or other things for one's own problems will not
                        eliminate the problem, nor provide solutions. Recognizing a problem
                        in the first place (the only step I agree with of a 12-step program)
                        is the key to the door. Overcoming the problem that you realize
                        you've created is the opening of the door. All, then, that remains,
                        is walking through it.

                        Perhaps this analogy would be the same for Beginner, Intermediate,
                        and Advanced courses? The Key, the Door, and the Path Beyond?


                        '/\` Frith upon your house
                        //\\ Karl Donaldsson
                        \\// mekboy@...
                        `\/' http://www.geocities.com/svalich
                        --------------------------------------------
                        Member of the Kindred of Ravenswood
                        Zionsville, Indiana USA
                        http://www.iquest.net/~chaviland/Rindex.html
                        ---------------------------------------------
                        To Vali! To Vengeance! To Honor! To Kin!
                        ===============================================
                        ------> Would you know more, or what? <------
                        Get Asatru education at http://www.asatru-u.org
                        ===============================================
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