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Re: [Apicius] Moretum - What's in a name!?!?!?

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  • Chris Hodge
    ... Chili involves beans in most areas of the United States, but in Texas, it is a dish made with meat only. I m not sure what it means in Mexico, which is
    Message 1 of 19 , Jun 2, 2000
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      On Fri, 2 Jun 2000 channonm@... wrote:

      > Probably the same way we from North America know that "chili" involves beans.

      Chili involves beans in most areas of the United States, but in Texas, it
      is a dish made with meat only. I'm not sure what it means in Mexico, which
      is also Norht America. Which leads me to ask if there might be similar
      variations for the recipes we're discussing.....

      -c


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    • Radar
      Channon, ... I really believe you opinion is the correct one. Unfortunately, I am neither a physician nor a professional cooks! LOL LOL LOL I suppose the old
      Message 2 of 19 , Jun 2, 2000
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        Channon,

        > ...whereas I believe the accounts we
        > read from the ancients were for
        > physicians and professional cooks. They might
        > have been more assuming in this
        > case. Just my opinion.>>

        I really believe you opinion is the correct one.
        Unfortunately, I am neither a physician nor a
        professional cooks! LOL LOL LOL I suppose the
        old adage "knowledge is power" applied back then
        - even to food.

        Larry




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      • Radar
        Chris, ... My thoughts exactly! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints!
        Message 3 of 19 , Jun 2, 2000
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          Chris,
          > > Probably the same way we from North America
          > know that "chili" involves beans.
          >
          > Chili involves beans in most areas of the
          > United States, but in Texas, it
          > is a dish made with meat only. I'm not sure
          > what it means in Mexico, which
          > is also Norht America. Which leads me to ask if
          > there might be similar
          > variations for the recipes we're
          > discussing.....>>

          My thoughts exactly!


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        • LrdRas@aol.com
          In a message dated 6/2/00 10:46:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time, channonm@aol.com writes:
          Message 4 of 19 , Jun 2, 2000
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            In a message dated 6/2/00 10:46:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time, channonm@...
            writes:

            << Probably the same way we from North America know that "chili" involves
            beans.

            Channon >>

            It does? I have several 'authentic' recipes for chili that do not include
            beans. In fact, when I lived in New Mexico, I was assured by several people
            that beans were an abomination to chili............

            Ras
          • LrdRas@aol.com
            In a message dated 6/2/00 11:34:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time, correus@yahoo.com writes:
            Message 5 of 19 , Jun 2, 2000
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              In a message dated 6/2/00 11:34:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
              correus@... writes:

              << I suppose the
              old adage "knowledge is power" applied back then
              - even to food.

              Larry >>

              Romans were highly educated. The dearth of learning that we so often
              associate with past European cultures was made evident during the Dark Ages
              in the period immediately preceding the absorption of northern European
              culture by the Romans. Before then education was a legal responsibility for
              citizens much in line with modern education. Certainly various advanced types
              of knowledge was not available but the average citizen of Rome was certainly
              not in any way 'uneducated' regarding his time period.

              Ras
            • LrdRas@aol.com
              In a message dated 6/2/00 11:44:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time, correus@yahoo.com writes:
              Message 6 of 19 , Jun 2, 2000
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                In a message dated 6/2/00 11:44:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
                correus@... writes:

                << Which leads me to ask if
                > there might be similar
                > variations for the recipes we're
                > discussing.....>> >>

                There might. There might not. Unfortunately we have no way of knowing. We
                only have the manuscript that has survived and that one only dating to the
                middle ages with any degree of accuracy. We also have a few descriptions of
                supposed dishes made by noncooks such as Virgil. The only path that can be
                taken to assure authenticity is to follow the closest recipe we have and
                forgo any conjecture as to what might have been, IMO.

                Ras
              • jdm314@aol.com
                We may not have textual evidence of every possible variation we may want to try, but we have enough recipes in the total corpus to know that variation did
                Message 7 of 19 , Jun 4, 2000
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                  We may not have textual evidence of every possible variation we may want to try, but we have enough recipes in the total corpus to know that variation did occur. I mean, think of those cases were where have more than one recipe for the same thing. I don't think a single one of them is identical. For example, we have a total of 5 recipes from Roman sources for moretum and/or moretaria that I know of, and they're all different!

                  Oh, this reminds me, there's a recipe for Moretum in Aristophanes too. I'll try to post that tonight.


                  -JDM

                  In a message dated Fri, 2 Jun 2000 6:53:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LrdRas@... writes:

                  << In a message dated 6/2/00 11:44:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
                  correus@... writes:

                  << Which leads me to ask if
                  > there might be similar
                  > variations for the recipes we're
                  > discussing.....>> >>

                  There might. There might not. Unfortunately we have no way of knowing. We
                  only have the manuscript that has survived and that one only dating to the
                  middle ages with any degree of accuracy. We also have a few descriptions of
                  supposed dishes made by noncooks such as Virgil. The only path that can be
                  taken to assure authenticity is to follow the closest recipe we have and
                  forgo any conjecture as to what might have been, IMO.

                  Ras

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                  >>
                • Radar
                  JDM ... Are these the ones listed through Apicius, Columella, and Virgil? If not, please share the others. ... Please do. Larry
                  Message 8 of 19 , Jun 5, 2000
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                    JDM
                    > For example,
                    > we have a total of 5 recipes from Roman sources
                    > for moretum and/or moretaria that I know of,
                    > and they're all different!>>

                    Are these the ones listed through Apicius,
                    Columella, and Virgil? If not, please share the
                    others.

                    > Oh, this reminds me, there's a recipe for
                    > Moretum in Aristophanes too. I'll try to post
                    > that tonight.>>

                    Please do.

                    Larry

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                  • jdm314@aol.com
                    In a message dated Mon, 5 Jun 2000 10:44:17 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Radar writes:
                    Message 9 of 19 , Jun 5, 2000
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                      In a message dated Mon, 5 Jun 2000 10:44:17 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Radar <correus@...> writes:

                      << JDM
                      > For example,
                      > we have a total of 5 recipes from Roman sources
                      > for moretum and/or moretaria that I know of,
                      > and they're all different!>>

                      Are these the ones listed through Apicius,
                      Columella, and Virgil? If not, please share the
                      others. >>

                      Yeah, one in virgil, one in apicius, three in columella. Am I missing any?



                      << > Oh, this reminds me, there's a recipe for
                      > Moretum in Aristophanes too. I'll try to post
                      > that tonight.>>

                      Please do.

                      Larry

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                      >>
                    • Radar
                      JDM, ... Okay - I have seen the one atributed to Virgil, the three you sent me that Columella wrote. Now where is the one Apicius wrote? Larry
                      Message 10 of 19 , Jun 5, 2000
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                        JDM,

                        > Are these the ones listed through Apicius,
                        > Columella, and Virgil? If not, please share
                        > the
                        > others. >>
                        >
                        > Yeah, one in virgil, one in apicius, three in
                        > columella. Am I missing any? >>

                        Okay - I have seen the one atributed to Virgil,
                        the three you sent me that Columella wrote. Now
                        where is the one Apicius wrote?

                        Larry


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