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Re: fish sauce

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  • Jdm314@aol.com
    In a message dated 1/28/00 8:47:49 AM, Sally nostra wrote:
    Message 1 of 9 , Jan 31, 2000
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      In a message dated 1/28/00 8:47:49 AM, Sally nostra wrote:

      <<IUSTINUS
      Re blood being non kosher You make a very good point and one I had not
      considered. I will no longer use that argument to bolster my belief in a
      universal use of fish sauce. One assumes then that the kosher fish sauce was
      simply made with gutted fish, which would incidently make the fermentation
      time far longer them if the blood were added as its the blood which helps to
      disolve the flesh.

      It struck me how odd it is to consider the 'fluid from a still breathing
      mackerel' as precious as Martial says. He may be being ironic of cause!
      The 'Astronomica' also reflects this strange concept of viewing what we would
      consider rubbish as the more valuable. >>

      He may also be exagerating about how lively it is, but you know more
      about this than I do.


      << Re almond oil I believe that the bitterness of the bitter almond is
      removed
      in the manufacturing process(the flavour is just more intence and therefore
      more practical to use instead of ordinary almonds, its also likely that the
      poisonous element would be destroyed in this process as it would be if the
      bitter almonds were cooked- but dont quote me on that) so you would in effect
      be adding simply more almond flavour if you used an essence or oil. >>

      Darn!

      << As to
      how you can find bitter almonds, Im at a loss. I will hunt for them again in
      our chinese shops and see what they can tell me about names etc.. As to
      sending chinese characters on the net, if necessary, I'm far too much of a
      novice at this to even think about it. >>

      Both my sister and Margali have sent me graphics of the characters in
      question, and they agree! So now I just need to write them down and take them
      to one of the many Oriental Grocieries in Madison. Thanks a lot, Margali!


      << You may be interested to know that much of the above info came from Alan
      Davidsons new book- The Oxford Companion to Food - just published here. It
      is expensive �45 but quite brilliant as a research tool. All the classical
      references are good and there is a great deal more besides on every
      concievable (and some quite unbelievable) foods. >>

      Yeowch, �45 is a lot of money. Probably too steep for me, but perhaps I
      should see if there's a copy at the local university library. THat could help
      answer many food questions, I imagine, especially since my tastes in cuisine
      are so obscure that quite often I can't find a single person who can answer
      my questions! Thank God for Apicius-L
      This reminds me, as a general question to the list, how do you pronounce
      Apicius, personally? I first heard about him in Latin class, so I tend to
      pronounce it almost as Latin- ah-PICK-key-yuss, but of course the normal
      rules for pronouncing Classical names in English would have us say
      uh-PIH-shuss. For just about all other Greco-Latin names I follow the latter
      rule, but I can't bring myself to do so with Apicius out of force of habbit.
      I was just curious what other people do. Inceidentally when I pronounce it
      the first way to people who have never heard of him before, I almost
      invariably get asked if he was "the first Epicurean" (based on the similarity
      of the names), even by people who are so versed in linguistics and history
      that they should know better!


      << Your questions have been pertinant, inteligent and sparked some excellent
      debates so dont do yourself down. >>

      I guess what I meant was my questions about general cooking, as opposed
      to the reconstruction of Ancient cuisine. I know my dead languages pretty
      well, and I think I have a lot of general knowledge, I just have very little
      experience in the kitchen (until the last 3 years or so), so I feel that I
      often have to ask silly questions as a result.
      Often when I ask more experienced people in my family how to do things
      like make scrambled eggs (don't worry, I've learned since that incident) or
      matzah pancake (a very simple recipe enjoyed by my family [not exclusively of
      course], which I keep forgetting because no one bothers to write it down)
      they don't even know where to BEGIN describing it because it seems so simple
      and instinctual to them that there's nothign to explain. This is oddly
      paralel to the situation we're often in in the classical world for things
      like cooking, but also music, where we have to guess things like
      measurements, or the meanings of some basic terms, because it seemed so basic
      to them that they didn't think to write it down. I bet if we could ask them
      they'd STILL be hard pressed to answer, just like my family.


      << Re the salt fish sauce ratio. I tend to add 1 desertspoon in place of a
      good pinch of salt but that is only an estimate. >>

      So it sounds like the ratio I quoted earlier was about right.

      << Most modern recipes say
      add salt to taste and I think that is how you should view fish sauce ie add a
      little during cooking and taste at the end, estimate the level of 'taste'
      and adjust the balance. Always add a little at a time untill you are
      confident about its strength. With the previso (sp) that if you are going to
      reduce a cooking liquor or sauce add the fish sauce at the end as it tends to
      concentrate the saltyness to much. If you do over estimate a little honey can
      bring it back. >>

      Well, true. The recipe I want to Romanize calls for 1 tsp of salt... I
      suspect that 100 ml of garum would ruin it. I may have to rethink my methods.
      Perhaps a TBS of garum, plus half a tsp of salt or something. Of course,
      since it's a puree, maybe the Romans would have preferred salt in this case
      anyway.



      << I have just read message re this and wish to clarify situation. Its
      likely
      that the true bitter almond -very poisonous- was meant in the ancient recipe.
      The cooking probably?? rendered them relatively safe!!!

      The chinese bitter almond ie a kind of apricot kernel was suggested as a
      substitute as it had some bitterness. These can be obtained with some
      difficulty. But I would not recommend using the true bitter almond even if
      you can find them which I doubt. They are all probably used for making the
      oil. >>

      OK, understood. I was wondering about that, since your book called for
      something illegal on this side of the pond. I'll look for the Chinese variety
      then.

      Thanks, can't wait to hear more,
      IVSTINVS
    • sallygrain@aol.com
      Hi it was the Greeks that invented the concept of fish sauce. It is found in Aristophanes. Also in Athenaeus. Many recipes in Apicius are in fact greek
      Message 2 of 9 , Apr 17 7:44 AM
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        Hi

        it was the Greeks that invented the concept of fish sauce. It is found in
        Aristophanes. Also in Athenaeus. Many recipes in Apicius are in fact greek
        originals. When Rome conquored Greece She gathered up all the culture as
        well, including their cuisine. Fish sauce was simply embrassed with
        everything else. Having said that it probably arrived long before the
        conquest in the 2nd century.

        The difference between the two cuisines is often very blured. Early Greek
        food as seen in Archestratus c 350 BCseems to be far less spicy and rich,
        though this is only based on the opinions of said writer who hated to serve
        sauces or to hide the natural flavours of foods with many seasonings. He is
        reacting to the practice of doing just that, particularly in Sicily, where
        their cooks were famous for adding cheese to everything apparently.
        Much later in the Empire high status Romans, whether they be in Athens or
        Rome or London for that matter were probably eating pretty much the same
        kinds of dishes in order to follow fashion. And they were on the whole much
        more heavily spiced as we know from Apicius. Local dishes off cause would
        always be different anyway and would be less likely to travell.



        Sally
      • gkbagne
        From Lepella, to All Salvete! I ve read that Roman fish sause came in many grades. Well, I think I ve found the equivalent of the bottom of the barrel. I
        Message 3 of 9 , Jul 26, 2002
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          From Lepella, to All Salvete!

          I've read that Roman fish sause came in many grades. Well, I think
          I've found the equivalent of the bottom of the barrel. I was in my
          local international market among the oriental fish sauce when I
          noticed a bottle who's ingedients list was whole anchovies, salt 20%
          and water. It's a Thai product called phu quoc, pinkish and almost
          thick enough to be called a paste. When I opened the bottle at home
          the scent was exactly what most people would expect of fish that had
          been left in the sun for several weeks! I tasted it anyway. The
          odor is like that of Limberger cheese, you smell it but you don't
          taste it. In fact the taste is extremely rich and creamy, I'm sure
          if I had a severe protien craving it would taste good enough to eat.

          Sometime ago (I think I was reading about the Japanese in WWII), I
          came across a statement that said 2 tablespoons of fish sauce
          fufilled the minimum daily requirement for protien. This must have
          been the type of sauce to which they were refering. It strikes me
          that this would have been a very efficient way to move protien around
          the Roman empire. I read one economist's evaluation that given the
          farm productivity in ancient Italy and adding in the Imperial records
          of grain shipments, the average person in ancient Rome was getting
          less than a thousand calories a day. He wondered how they could work
          and reproduce on this barely subsistance level. We know of fish
          sauce processing site from the Atlantic coast of Spain to the shores
          of the Black Sea. If they were all sending this fish protien
          concentrate back to Rome, it would explain a few things. One amphora
          of it would probably satisfy the protien needs of all the slaves in a
          large household for a month.
          I didn't try cooking with phu quoc. I suppose I could have tried a
          tablespoonful in a bowl of barley poridge to recreate slave fare, but
          frankley, I wanted the stuff out of my kitchen. I will Leave it to
          others to give that recipie a try!
          Be Well!
        • RM
          Hi all! If you have a look at Plin. Nat. Hist. 31, 93-95 you will find a short description of how the Roman (!) garum was made and how it looked like. It
          Message 4 of 9 , Jul 26, 2002
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            Hi all!

            If you have a look at Plin. Nat. Hist. 31, 93-95 you will find a short
            description of how the Roman (!) "garum" was made and how it looked like. It
            wasn't thick like allex and some varieties were really expensive (1000
            Sestertii x 2 congii). I personally cannot really believe that so many
            Romans should have depended on garum for their daily nutrition, I believe
            they ate eggs, fish and cheese and perhaps little birds for the protein,
            olive oil, vegetables, herbs, "legumina", i.e. beans and peas, bread or puls
            or polenta or "lagana" (lasagne), fruit (apples, pears, peaches, figs,
            melons etc.), nuts and mushrooms in autumn and drank water and wine.

            Best regards

            RM


            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "gkbagne" <gkbagne@...>
            To: <Apicius@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Friday, July 26, 2002 3:29 PM
            Subject: [Apicius] Re: fish sauce


            > From Lepella, to All Salvete!
            >
            > I've read that Roman fish sause came in many grades. Well, I think
            > I've found the equivalent of the bottom of the barrel. I was in my
            > local international market among the oriental fish sauce when I
            > noticed a bottle who's ingedients list was whole anchovies, salt 20%
            > and water. It's a Thai product called phu quoc, pinkish and almost
            > thick enough to be called a paste. When I opened the bottle at home
            > the scent was exactly what most people would expect of fish that had
            > been left in the sun for several weeks! I tasted it anyway. The
            > odor is like that of Limberger cheese, you smell it but you don't
            > taste it. In fact the taste is extremely rich and creamy, I'm sure
            > if I had a severe protien craving it would taste good enough to eat.
            >
            > Sometime ago (I think I was reading about the Japanese in WWII), I
            > came across a statement that said 2 tablespoons of fish sauce
            > fufilled the minimum daily requirement for protien. This must have
            > been the type of sauce to which they were refering. It strikes me
            > that this would have been a very efficient way to move protien around
            > the Roman empire. I read one economist's evaluation that given the
            > farm productivity in ancient Italy and adding in the Imperial records
            > of grain shipments, the average person in ancient Rome was getting
            > less than a thousand calories a day. He wondered how they could work
            > and reproduce on this barely subsistance level. We know of fish
            > sauce processing site from the Atlantic coast of Spain to the shores
            > of the Black Sea. If they were all sending this fish protien
            > concentrate back to Rome, it would explain a few things. One amphora
            > of it would probably satisfy the protien needs of all the slaves in a
            > large household for a month.
            > I didn't try cooking with phu quoc. I suppose I could have tried a
            > tablespoonful in a bowl of barley poridge to recreate slave fare, but
            > frankley, I wanted the stuff out of my kitchen. I will Leave it to
            > others to give that recipie a try!
            > Be Well!
            >
            >
            >
            > Post message: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
            > Unsubscribe: Apicius-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > List owner: Apicius-owner@yahoogroups.com
            >
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
            >
          • jachthondus
            ... Hi RM, Only the well-to-do Romans seem to have spiced their food with fish- sauce. The best-one was Muria, (produced from one type of fish, preferably
            Message 5 of 9 , Aug 3, 2002
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              --- In Apicius@y..., "RM" <apicius@m...> wrote:
              > Hi all!
              Hi RM,

              Only the well-to-do Romans seem to have spiced their food with fish-
              sauce.

              The best-one was Muria, (produced from one type of fish, preferably
              macrel).
              The second best, (Liquamen), was made from tuna-fish, (Martialus does
              call it second-rate).
              The Garum seems to have been a sauce for all-day-use, made from all
              varieties of too small fishes and shellfish.

              I once read, that the original idea came from the Greec; but how/what
              is unknown, because the first information about this sauce dates from
              the 1st century AD.

              I also remember some expert writing, never to replace Garum by
              ansjofish-paste in today's cooking.

              (I myself do use "Nuoc Man-sauce" from Tailand, but I'm not jumping-
              in-the-sky for enthousiasme, if you ask me)!
              So, I'm in for further suggestions.

              Greetings, Jach.

              >
              > If you have a look at Plin. Nat. Hist. 31, 93-95 you will find a
              short
              > description of how the Roman (!) "garum" was made and how it looked
              like. It
              > wasn't thick like allex and some varieties were really expensive
              (1000
              > Sestertii x 2 congii). I personally cannot really believe that so
              many
              > Romans should have depended on garum for their daily nutrition, I
              believe
              > they ate eggs, fish and cheese and perhaps little birds for the
              protein,
              > olive oil, vegetables, herbs, "legumina", i.e. beans and peas,
              bread or puls
              > or polenta or "lagana" (lasagne), fruit (apples, pears, peaches,
              figs,
              > melons etc.), nuts and mushrooms in autumn and drank water and wine.
              >
              > Best regards
              >
              > RM
              >
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: "gkbagne" <gkbagne@h...>
              > To: <Apicius@y...>
              > Sent: Friday, July 26, 2002 3:29 PM
              > Subject: [Apicius] Re: fish sauce
              >
              >
              > > From Lepella, to All Salvete!
              > >
              > > I've read that Roman fish sause came in many grades. Well, I
              think
              > > I've found the equivalent of the bottom of the barrel. I was in
              my
              > > local international market among the oriental fish sauce when I
              > > noticed a bottle who's ingedients list was whole anchovies, salt
              20%
              > > and water. It's a Thai product called phu quoc, pinkish and
              almost
              > > thick enough to be called a paste. When I opened the bottle at
              home
              > > the scent was exactly what most people would expect of fish that
              had
              > > been left in the sun for several weeks! I tasted it anyway. The
              > > odor is like that of Limberger cheese, you smell it but you don't
              > > taste it. In fact the taste is extremely rich and creamy, I'm
              sure
              > > if I had a severe protien craving it would taste good enough to
              eat.
              > >
              > > Sometime ago (I think I was reading about the Japanese in
              WWII), I
              > > came across a statement that said 2 tablespoons of fish sauce
              > > fufilled the minimum daily requirement for protien. This must
              have
              > > been the type of sauce to which they were refering. It strikes me
              > > that this would have been a very efficient way to move protien
              around
              > > the Roman empire. I read one economist's evaluation that given
              the
              > > farm productivity in ancient Italy and adding in the Imperial
              records
              > > of grain shipments, the average person in ancient Rome was getting
              > > less than a thousand calories a day. He wondered how they could
              work
              > > and reproduce on this barely subsistance level. We know of fish
              > > sauce processing site from the Atlantic coast of Spain to the
              shores
              > > of the Black Sea. If they were all sending this fish protien
              > > concentrate back to Rome, it would explain a few things. One
              amphora
              > > of it would probably satisfy the protien needs of all the slaves
              in a
              > > large household for a month.
              > > I didn't try cooking with phu quoc. I suppose I could have
              tried a
              > > tablespoonful in a bowl of barley poridge to recreate slave fare,
              but
              > > frankley, I wanted the stuff out of my kitchen. I will Leave it to
              > > others to give that recipie a try!
              > > Be Well!
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Post message: Apicius@y...
              > > Unsubscribe: Apicius-unsubscribe@y...
              > > List owner: Apicius-owner@y...
              > >
              > >
              > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
              http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              > >
              > >
            • RM
              Hi Jach & all! It is somewhat disappointing but from the whole Latin literature there is no evidence for a difference between garum and liquamen. I posted some
              Message 6 of 9 , Aug 5, 2002
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                Hi Jach & all!

                It is somewhat disappointing but from the whole Latin literature there is no
                evidence for a difference between garum and liquamen. I posted some findings
                in previous e-mails. Martialis doesn't mention liquamen at all as far as I
                know. Muria was more some type of salted water - often fish has been
                conservated and eaten in it. "Garon" is a Greek word, and - what is more
                interesting - I found that it has already been mentioned by Sophokles, frag.
                799a (ga/ron to\n i)xqueion) and 3 times by Aeschylos (to\n i)xquwn ga/ron).
                So the idea is quite old. Today, there are some similar ingredients from
                Asia, which may be good substitutes of garum/liquamen - mostly they are not
                as salty as the original garum should have been so we have to add salt
                anyway. The ansjofish-paste is more comparable to allec I think, one may
                give it a try, but I wouldn't exaggerate.

                Best regards

                RM

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "jachthondus" <rompy@...>
                To: <Apicius@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2002 12:41 PM
                Subject: [Apicius] Re: fish sauce


                > --- In Apicius@y..., "RM" <apicius@m...> wrote:
                > > Hi all!
                > Hi RM,
                >
                > Only the well-to-do Romans seem to have spiced their food with fish-
                > sauce.
                >
                > The best-one was Muria, (produced from one type of fish, preferably
                > macrel).
                > The second best, (Liquamen), was made from tuna-fish, (Martialus does
                > call it second-rate).
                > The Garum seems to have been a sauce for all-day-use, made from all
                > varieties of too small fishes and shellfish.
                >
                > I once read, that the original idea came from the Greec; but how/what
                > is unknown, because the first information about this sauce dates from
                > the 1st century AD.
                >
                > I also remember some expert writing, never to replace Garum by
                > ansjofish-paste in today's cooking.
                >
                > (I myself do use "Nuoc Man-sauce" from Tailand, but I'm not jumping-
                > in-the-sky for enthousiasme, if you ask me)!
                > So, I'm in for further suggestions.
                >
                > Greetings, Jach.
                >
                > >
                > > If you have a look at Plin. Nat. Hist. 31, 93-95 you will find a
                > short
                > > description of how the Roman (!) "garum" was made and how it looked
                > like. It
                > > wasn't thick like allex and some varieties were really expensive
                > (1000
                > > Sestertii x 2 congii). I personally cannot really believe that so
                > many
                > > Romans should have depended on garum for their daily nutrition, I
                > believe
                > > they ate eggs, fish and cheese and perhaps little birds for the
                > protein,
                > > olive oil, vegetables, herbs, "legumina", i.e. beans and peas,
                > bread or puls
                > > or polenta or "lagana" (lasagne), fruit (apples, pears, peaches,
                > figs,
                > > melons etc.), nuts and mushrooms in autumn and drank water and wine.
                > >
                > > Best regards
                > >
                > > RM
                > >
                > >
                > > ----- Original Message -----
                > > From: "gkbagne" <gkbagne@h...>
                > > To: <Apicius@y...>
                > > Sent: Friday, July 26, 2002 3:29 PM
                > > Subject: [Apicius] Re: fish sauce
                > >
                > >
                > > > From Lepella, to All Salvete!
                > > >
                > > > I've read that Roman fish sause came in many grades. Well, I
                > think
                > > > I've found the equivalent of the bottom of the barrel. I was in
                > my
                > > > local international market among the oriental fish sauce when I
                > > > noticed a bottle who's ingedients list was whole anchovies, salt
                > 20%
                > > > and water. It's a Thai product called phu quoc, pinkish and
                > almost
                > > > thick enough to be called a paste. When I opened the bottle at
                > home
                > > > the scent was exactly what most people would expect of fish that
                > had
                > > > been left in the sun for several weeks! I tasted it anyway. The
                > > > odor is like that of Limberger cheese, you smell it but you don't
                > > > taste it. In fact the taste is extremely rich and creamy, I'm
                > sure
                > > > if I had a severe protien craving it would taste good enough to
                > eat.
                > > >
                > > > Sometime ago (I think I was reading about the Japanese in
                > WWII), I
                > > > came across a statement that said 2 tablespoons of fish sauce
                > > > fufilled the minimum daily requirement for protien. This must
                > have
                > > > been the type of sauce to which they were refering. It strikes me
                > > > that this would have been a very efficient way to move protien
                > around
                > > > the Roman empire. I read one economist's evaluation that given
                > the
                > > > farm productivity in ancient Italy and adding in the Imperial
                > records
                > > > of grain shipments, the average person in ancient Rome was getting
                > > > less than a thousand calories a day. He wondered how they could
                > work
                > > > and reproduce on this barely subsistance level. We know of fish
                > > > sauce processing site from the Atlantic coast of Spain to the
                > shores
                > > > of the Black Sea. If they were all sending this fish protien
                > > > concentrate back to Rome, it would explain a few things. One
                > amphora
                > > > of it would probably satisfy the protien needs of all the slaves
                > in a
                > > > large household for a month.
                > > > I didn't try cooking with phu quoc. I suppose I could have
                > tried a
                > > > tablespoonful in a bowl of barley poridge to recreate slave fare,
                > but
                > > > frankley, I wanted the stuff out of my kitchen. I will Leave it to
                > > > others to give that recipie a try!
                > > > Be Well!
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Post message: Apicius@y...
                > > > Unsubscribe: Apicius-unsubscribe@y...
                > > > List owner: Apicius-owner@y...
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                > > >
                > > >
                >
                >
                > Post message: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
                > Unsubscribe: Apicius-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > List owner: Apicius-owner@yahoogroups.com
                >
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                >
                >
              • jachthondus
                ... there is no ... findings ... far as I ... more ... Sophokles, frag. ... ga/ron). ... from ... are not ... salt ... one may ... fish- ... preferably ...
                Message 7 of 9 , Aug 6, 2002
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                  --- In Apicius@y..., "RM" <apicius@m...> wrote:
                  > Hi Jach & all!
                  >
                  > It is somewhat disappointing but from the whole Latin literature
                  there is no
                  > evidence for a difference between garum and liquamen. I posted some
                  findings
                  > in previous e-mails. Martialis doesn't mention liquamen at all as
                  far as I
                  > know. Muria was more some type of salted water - often fish has been
                  > conservated and eaten in it. "Garon" is a Greek word, and - what is
                  more
                  > interesting - I found that it has already been mentioned by
                  Sophokles, frag.
                  > 799a (ga/ron to\n i)xqueion) and 3 times by Aeschylos (to\n i)xquwn
                  ga/ron).
                  > So the idea is quite old. Today, there are some similar ingredients
                  from
                  > Asia, which may be good substitutes of garum/liquamen - mostly they
                  are not
                  > as salty as the original garum should have been so we have to add
                  salt
                  > anyway. The ansjofish-paste is more comparable to allec I think,
                  one may
                  > give it a try, but I wouldn't exaggerate.
                  >
                  > Best regards
                  >
                  > RM
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: "jachthondus" <rompy@x...>
                  > To: <Apicius@y...>
                  > Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2002 12:41 PM
                  > Subject: [Apicius] Re: fish sauce
                  >
                  >
                  > > --- In Apicius@y..., "RM" <apicius@m...> wrote:
                  > > > Hi all!
                  > > Hi RM,
                  > >
                  > > Only the well-to-do Romans seem to have spiced their food with
                  fish-
                  > > sauce.
                  > >
                  > > The best-one was Muria, (produced from one type of fish,
                  preferably
                  > > macrel).
                  > > The second best, (Liquamen), was made from tuna-fish, (Martialus
                  does
                  > > call it second-rate).
                  > > The Garum seems to have been a sauce for all-day-use, made from
                  all
                  > > varieties of too small fishes and shellfish.
                  > >
                  > > I once read, that the original idea came from the Greec; but
                  how/what
                  > > is unknown, because the first information about this sauce dates
                  from
                  > > the 1st century AD.
                  > >
                  > > I also remember some expert writing, never to replace Garum by
                  > > ansjofish-paste in today's cooking.
                  > >
                  > > (I myself do use "Nuoc Man-sauce" from Tailand, but I'm not
                  jumping-
                  > > in-the-sky for enthousiasme, if you ask me)!
                  > > So, I'm in for further suggestions.
                  > >
                  > > Greetings, Jach.
                  > >
                  > > >
                  > > > If you have a look at Plin. Nat. Hist. 31, 93-95 you will find a
                  > > short
                  > > > description of how the Roman (!) "garum" was made and how it
                  looked
                  > > like. It
                  > > > wasn't thick like allex and some varieties were really expensive
                  > > (1000
                  > > > Sestertii x 2 congii). I personally cannot really believe that
                  so
                  > > many
                  > > > Romans should have depended on garum for their daily nutrition,
                  I
                  > > believe
                  > > > they ate eggs, fish and cheese and perhaps little birds for the
                  > > protein,
                  > > > olive oil, vegetables, herbs, "legumina", i.e. beans and peas,
                  > > bread or puls
                  > > > or polenta or "lagana" (lasagne), fruit (apples, pears, peaches,
                  > > figs,
                  > > > melons etc.), nuts and mushrooms in autumn and drank water and
                  wine.
                  > > >
                  > > > Best regards
                  > > >
                  > > > RM
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > ----- Original Message -----
                  > > > From: "gkbagne" <gkbagne@h...>
                  > > > To: <Apicius@y...>
                  > > > Sent: Friday, July 26, 2002 3:29 PM
                  > > > Subject: [Apicius] Re: fish sauce
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > > From Lepella, to All Salvete!
                  > > > >
                  > > > > I've read that Roman fish sause came in many grades. Well,
                  I
                  > > think
                  > > > > I've found the equivalent of the bottom of the barrel. I was
                  in
                  > > my
                  > > > > local international market among the oriental fish sauce when
                  I
                  > > > > noticed a bottle who's ingedients list was whole anchovies,
                  salt
                  > > 20%
                  > > > > and water. It's a Thai product called phu quoc, pinkish and
                  > > almost
                  > > > > thick enough to be called a paste. When I opened the bottle
                  at
                  > > home
                  > > > > the scent was exactly what most people would expect of fish
                  that
                  > > had
                  > > > > been left in the sun for several weeks! I tasted it anyway.
                  The
                  > > > > odor is like that of Limberger cheese, you smell it but you
                  don't
                  > > > > taste it. In fact the taste is extremely rich and creamy, I'm
                  > > sure
                  > > > > if I had a severe protien craving it would taste good enough
                  to
                  > > eat.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Sometime ago (I think I was reading about the Japanese in
                  > > WWII), I
                  > > > > came across a statement that said 2 tablespoons of fish sauce
                  > > > > fufilled the minimum daily requirement for protien. This must
                  > > have
                  > > > > been the type of sauce to which they were refering. It
                  strikes me
                  > > > > that this would have been a very efficient way to move protien
                  > > around
                  > > > > the Roman empire. I read one economist's evaluation that
                  given
                  > > the
                  > > > > farm productivity in ancient Italy and adding in the Imperial
                  > > records
                  > > > > of grain shipments, the average person in ancient Rome was
                  getting
                  > > > > less than a thousand calories a day. He wondered how they
                  could
                  > > work
                  > > > > and reproduce on this barely subsistance level. We know of
                  fish
                  > > > > sauce processing site from the Atlantic coast of Spain to the
                  > > shores
                  > > > > of the Black Sea. If they were all sending this fish protien
                  > > > > concentrate back to Rome, it would explain a few things. One
                  > > amphora
                  > > > > of it would probably satisfy the protien needs of all the
                  slaves
                  > > in a
                  > > > > large household for a month.
                  > > > > I didn't try cooking with phu quoc. I suppose I could have
                  > > tried a
                  > > > > tablespoonful in a bowl of barley poridge to recreate slave
                  fare,
                  > > but
                  > > > > frankley, I wanted the stuff out of my kitchen. I will Leave
                  it to
                  > > > > others to give that recipie a try!
                  > > > > Be Well!

                  Hello RM,

                  Thanks for your message!

                  I'm hurrying to study the subject "fish-sauce" again, and ofcourse
                  read the roman-writers over.
                  Anyway, we do agree that it has been a Greec-invention from origin!
                  Do please give me some time? (As you know it's holidays at the moment)

                  I will certainly answer you in due time, (as soon as possible)...
                  (Interesting and intruiging)!

                  Greetings to you, from Jach.



                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
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                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                  > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Post message: Apicius@y...
                  > > Unsubscribe: Apicius-unsubscribe@y...
                  > > List owner: Apicius-owner@y...
                  > >
                  > >
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                  > >
                  > >
                • Gaylin Walli
                  You might find the book Piscinae (James Higginbotham, ISBN 0807823295) of interest in your search for the differences between these items. The book
                  Message 8 of 9 , Aug 18, 2002
                  • 0 Attachment
                    You might find the book "Piscinae" (James Higginbotham, ISBN
                    0807823295) of interest in your search for the differences between
                    these items. The book discusses, as its title suggests, ancient roman
                    fish ponds, the source for your sauces. It's a chunky, scientific
                    read, but worth it if you're into strong research based on
                    archaeological finds.

                    Gaylin/Iasmin
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