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Even the poor eat... giraffes?

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  • Justin Mansfield
    http://www.archaeology.org/news/1688-pompeii-porta-stabia-hospitality-businesses
    Message 1 of 7 , Jan 2, 2014
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    • Susan Weingarten
      This report is fascinating. However, i am not so sure about the conclusions of the archaeologists as reported here. Does the giraffe bone really attest to a
      Message 2 of 7 , Jan 4, 2014
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        This report is fascinating. However, i am not so sure about the conclusions of the archaeologists as reported here. Does the giraffe bone really attest to a trade in exotic animals for meat? This seems somewhat unlikely. My colleague Joan Alcock (author of Food in Roman Britain)  has suggested that the  exotic animals imported for fights in the amphitheatre were sold off as meat for Roman sausages after they were killed. So a trade in exotic animals, yes. But for their meat? Only at one remove. 
        Susan Weingarten





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      • Justin Mansfield
        Good point. In fact, today I actually got to see Prof. Ellis s presentation on these findings. An audience member pointed out that the restaurant would be
        Message 3 of 7 , Jan 4, 2014
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          Good point.

          In fact, today I actually got to see Prof. Ellis's presentation on these findings. An audience member pointed out that the restaurant would be well-located for, e.g. theater-goers to stop by after a show, and of course Romans often sent out slaves to make purchases for them, so we need not assume the patrons were actually from the neighborhood.


          On Sun, Jan 5, 2014 at 12:42 AM, Susan Weingarten <weingarten.susan@...> wrote:
           

          This report is fascinating. However, i am not so sure about the conclusions of the archaeologists as reported here. Does the giraffe bone really attest to a trade in exotic animals for meat? This seems somewhat unlikely. My colleague Joan Alcock (author of Food in Roman Britain)  has suggested that the  exotic animals imported for fights in the amphitheatre were sold off as meat for Roman sausages after they were killed. So a trade in exotic animals, yes. But for their meat? Only at one remove. 
          Susan Weingarten





          --
          Dr Susan Weingarten


        • Correus
          I think Justin s on to something.... First thing I thought of was the location being next to the theater district.  No offense intended towards anyone but,
          Message 4 of 7 , Jan 5, 2014
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            I think Justin's on to something....

            First thing I thought of was the location being next to the theater district.  No offense intended towards anyone but, just as it is today, who tends to go to the theater more than other activities such as the "games" - the intellectuals and the more financially well off.

            That being said - it would make sense that the local eateries around the theater district would cater to a more upscale taste.

            I also remember reading in a couple of books, one being 'Those About to Die' be Daniel P. Mannix, that the carcases of animals could be sold as food.  The Porta-Stabis would not be difficult to access from the amphitheater - you just follow the road that skirts the city wall.

            Just a thought.

            Correus



            From: Justin Mansfield <iustinus@...>
            To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Sunday, January 5, 2014 12:57 AM
            Subject: Re: [Apicius] Even the poor eat... giraffes?

             
            Good point.

            In fact, today I actually got to see Prof. Ellis's presentation on these findings. An audience member pointed out that the restaurant would be well-located for, e.g. theater-goers to stop by after a show, and of course Romans often sent out slaves to make purchases for them, so we need not assume the patrons were actually from the neighborhood.


            On Sun, Jan 5, 2014 at 12:42 AM, Susan Weingarten <weingarten.susan@...> wrote:
             
            This report is fascinating. However, i am not so sure about the conclusions of the archaeologists as reported here. Does the giraffe bone really attest to a trade in exotic animals for meat? This seems somewhat unlikely. My colleague Joan Alcock (author of Food in Roman Britain)  has suggested that the  exotic animals imported for fights in the amphitheatre were sold off as meat for Roman sausages after they were killed. So a trade in exotic animals, yes. But for their meat? Only at one remove. 
            Susan Weingarten





            --
            Dr Susan Weingarten



          • Ana Valdés
            In another list we discussed the same rapport and someone come with a very interesting input: what if the giraffe died in it s way to Rome or to other part and
            Message 5 of 7 , Jan 5, 2014
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              In another list we discussed the same rapport and someone come with a very interesting input: what if the giraffe died in it's way to Rome or to other part and died in Pompei and the trader sold the corpse to make some profit eating it or making sausages with the meat?
              Ana


              On Sun, Jan 5, 2014 at 11:28 PM, Correus <correus@...> wrote:
               

              I think Justin's on to something....

              First thing I thought of was the location being next to the theater district.  No offense intended towards anyone but, just as it is today, who tends to go to the theater more than other activities such as the "games" - the intellectuals and the more financially well off.

              That being said - it would make sense that the local eateries around the theater district would cater to a more upscale taste.

              I also remember reading in a couple of books, one being 'Those About to Die' be Daniel P. Mannix, that the carcases of animals could be sold as food.  The Porta-Stabis would not be difficult to access from the amphitheater - you just follow the road that skirts the city wall.

              Just a thought.

              Correus



              From: Justin Mansfield <iustinus@...>
              To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sunday, January 5, 2014 12:57 AM
              Subject: Re: [Apicius] Even the poor eat... giraffes?

               
              Good point.

              In fact, today I actually got to see Prof. Ellis's presentation on these findings. An audience member pointed out that the restaurant would be well-located for, e.g. theater-goers to stop by after a show, and of course Romans often sent out slaves to make purchases for them, so we need not assume the patrons were actually from the neighborhood.


              On Sun, Jan 5, 2014 at 12:42 AM, Susan Weingarten <weingarten.susan@...> wrote:
               
              This report is fascinating. However, i am not so sure about the conclusions of the archaeologists as reported here. Does the giraffe bone really attest to a trade in exotic animals for meat? This seems somewhat unlikely. My colleague Joan Alcock (author of Food in Roman Britain)  has suggested that the  exotic animals imported for fights in the amphitheatre were sold off as meat for Roman sausages after they were killed. So a trade in exotic animals, yes. But for their meat? Only at one remove. 
              Susan Weingarten





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            • Susan Weingarten
              Someone sent me another link to this report http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/05/ancient-pompeii-elite-ate-giraffe-sea-urchins_n_4538312.html where it
              Message 6 of 7 , Jan 8, 2014
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                Someone sent me another link to this report http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/05/ancient-pompeii-elite-ate-giraffe-sea-urchins_n_4538312.html where it makes it clear that the 'shell fish' included sea urchins. This is particularly interesting, as the Apicius collection has several recipes for sea urchins  (9.8.1-5- Sally Grainger says it is the pink/orange ovaries or 'corals' which are eaten). Apart from these,  the section on seafood ends with a recipe including sea urchins (9.11) called embractum Baianum, a relish from Baiae, with chopped oysters, mussels and sea urchins  together with chopped roasted pine nuts, rue, celery, pepper, coriander, cumin, passum, liquamen, date and oil. Baiae was a fancy seaside town just round the bay from Pompeii - so they may have been been serving well-known local delicacies, as well as exotic imports 


                On 5 January 2014 08:57, Justin Mansfield <iustinus@...> wrote:
                 

                Good point.

                In fact, today I actually got to see Prof. Ellis's presentation on these findings. An audience member pointed out that the restaurant would be well-located for, e.g. theater-goers to stop by after a show, and of course Romans often sent out slaves to make purchases for them, so we need not assume the patrons were actually from the neighborhood.


                On Sun, Jan 5, 2014 at 12:42 AM, Susan Weingarten <weingarten.susan@...> wrote:
                 

                This report is fascinating. However, i am not so sure about the conclusions of the archaeologists as reported here. Does the giraffe bone really attest to a trade in exotic animals for meat? This seems somewhat unlikely. My colleague Joan Alcock (author of Food in Roman Britain)  has suggested that the  exotic animals imported for fights in the amphitheatre were sold off as meat for Roman sausages after they were killed. So a trade in exotic animals, yes. But for their meat? Only at one remove. 
                Susan Weingarten
                --
                Dr Susan Weingarten





                --
                Dr Susan Weingarten
                tel:+972 4 6821395
                mobile:+972 [0]507 537 184
              • Ursula Whitcher
                ... I had sea urchin recently when I was in Marseille. They are surprisingly sweet. --Ursula.
                Message 7 of 7 , Jan 8, 2014
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                  On 1/8/2014 2:18 AM, Susan Weingarten wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > Someone sent me another link to this report
                  > http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/05/ancient-pompeii-elite-ate-giraffe-sea-urchins_n_4538312.html where
                  > it makes it clear that the 'shell fish' included sea urchins. This is
                  > particularly interesting, as the Apicius collection has several recipes
                  > for sea urchins (9.8.1-5- Sally Grainger says it is the pink/orange
                  > ovaries or 'corals' which are eaten).

                  I had sea urchin recently when I was in Marseille. They are
                  surprisingly sweet.

                  --Ursula.
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