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RE: [Apicius] Cardui

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  • Lucia Clark
    Could they be the modern scungilli ? ... From: Apicius@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Apicius@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Justin Mansfield Sent: Saturday, August
    Message 1 of 13 , Aug 31, 2013
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      Could they be the modern "scungilli"?

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Apicius@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Apicius@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
      Justin Mansfield
      Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2013 6:45 PM
      To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [Apicius] Cardui

      I'm hard at work putting together all the ancient recipes, and modern
      redactions. For now I'm not including the word *sfondilus*, which the big
      names of Roman food scholarship generally interpret as referring to the
      mollusk of the same name. But there are several good possibilities already!


      On Sat, Aug 31, 2013 at 5:32 PM, Lucia Clark
      <luciaclark@...>wrote:

      > **
      >
      >
      > My mother used to do a Parmigiana with them. Maybe with semi-soft cheese
      > and
      > a touch of Garum?
      >
      > _____
      >
      > From: Apicius@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Apicius@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
      > Of
      > Justin Mansfield
      > Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2013 4:58 PM
      > To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: [Apicius] Cardui
      >
      >
      > Just managed to get my hands on a head of cardoons! Now I just need to
      > figure out what to do with them ;)
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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    • Justin Mansfield
      According to Andrew Dalby it s *Spondylus gaederopus*, the Spiny European Oyster. I don t know what its common Italian name is, but googling turns up spondilo,
      Message 2 of 13 , Aug 31, 2013
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        According to Andrew Dalby it's *Spondylus gaederopus*, the Spiny European
        Oyster. I don't know what its common Italian name is, but googling turns up
        spondilo, spronnulo, ostrica rossa, ostrica spinosa, and scataponzolo.


        On Sat, Aug 31, 2013 at 6:57 PM, Lucia Clark <luciaclark@...>wrote:

        > **
        >
        >
        > Could they be the modern "scungilli"?
        >
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Apicius@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Apicius@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
        > Of
        > Justin Mansfield
        > Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2013 6:45 PM
        > To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: Re: [Apicius] Cardui
        >
        > I'm hard at work putting together all the ancient recipes, and modern
        > redactions. For now I'm not including the word *sfondilus*, which the big
        >
        > names of Roman food scholarship generally interpret as referring to the
        > mollusk of the same name. But there are several good possibilities already!
        >
        > On Sat, Aug 31, 2013 at 5:32 PM, Lucia Clark
        > <luciaclark@...>wrote:
        >
        > > **
        >
        > >
        > >
        > > My mother used to do a Parmigiana with them. Maybe with semi-soft cheese
        > > and
        > > a touch of Garum?
        > >
        > > _____
        > >
        > > From: Apicius@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Apicius@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
        > > Of
        > > Justin Mansfield
        > > Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2013 4:58 PM
        > > To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
        > > Subject: [Apicius] Cardui
        > >
        > >
        > > Just managed to get my hands on a head of cardoons! Now I just need to
        > > figure out what to do with them ;)
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        >
        > Post message: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
        > Unsubscribe: Apicius-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        > List owner: Apicius-owner@yahoogroups.com
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Lucia Clark
        Well, maybe not. This is what the scungilli look like http://almostitalian.com/scungilli/ ... From: Apicius@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Apicius@yahoogroups.com] On
        Message 3 of 13 , Sep 1, 2013
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          Well, maybe not. This is what the scungilli look like
          http://almostitalian.com/scungilli/


          -----Original Message-----
          From: Apicius@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Apicius@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
          Justin Mansfield
          Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2013 10:01 PM
          To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [Apicius] Cardui

          According to Andrew Dalby it's *Spondylus gaederopus*, the Spiny European
          Oyster. I don't know what its common Italian name is, but googling turns up
          spondilo, spronnulo, ostrica rossa, ostrica spinosa, and scataponzolo.


          On Sat, Aug 31, 2013 at 6:57 PM, Lucia Clark
          <luciaclark@...>wrote:

          > **
          >
          >
          > Could they be the modern "scungilli"?
          >
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: Apicius@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Apicius@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
          > Of
          > Justin Mansfield
          > Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2013 6:45 PM
          > To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: Re: [Apicius] Cardui
          >
          > I'm hard at work putting together all the ancient recipes, and modern
          > redactions. For now I'm not including the word *sfondilus*, which the big
          >
          > names of Roman food scholarship generally interpret as referring to the
          > mollusk of the same name. But there are several good possibilities
          already!
          >
          > On Sat, Aug 31, 2013 at 5:32 PM, Lucia Clark
          > <luciaclark@...>wrote:
          >
          > > **
          >
          > >
          > >
          > > My mother used to do a Parmigiana with them. Maybe with semi-soft cheese
          > > and
          > > a touch of Garum?
          > >
          > > _____
          > >
          > > From: Apicius@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Apicius@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
          > > Of
          > > Justin Mansfield
          > > Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2013 4:58 PM
          > > To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
          > > Subject: [Apicius] Cardui
          > >
          > >
          > > Just managed to get my hands on a head of cardoons! Now I just need to
          > > figure out what to do with them ;)
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          >
          > Post message: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
          > Unsubscribe: Apicius-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          > List owner: Apicius-owner@yahoogroups.com
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



          ------------------------------------

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        • Correus
          Did an e-mail get mislaid?  How did we go from Cardui to sfondilus , scungilli and Spondylus gaederopus ? Last Cadiu e-mail I got said My mother used
          Message 4 of 13 , Sep 1, 2013
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            Did an e-mail get mislaid?  How did we go from "Cardui" to "sfondilus", "scungilli" and "Spondylus gaederopus"?

            Last Cadiu e-mail I got said "My mother used to do a Parmigiana with them. Maybe with semi-soft cheese and a touch of Garum?" and then it went to the other.

            Correus




            ________________________________
            From: Justin Mansfield <iustinus@...>
            To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2013 9:00 PM
            Subject: Re: [Apicius] Cardui


            According to Andrew Dalby it's *Spondylus gaederopus*, the Spiny European
            Oyster. I don't know what its common Italian name is, but googling turns up
            spondilo, spronnulo, ostrica rossa, ostrica spinosa, and scataponzolo.


            On Sat, Aug 31, 2013 at 6:57 PM, Lucia Clark <luciaclark@...>wrote:

            > **
            >
            >
            > Could they be the modern "scungilli"?
            >
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: Apicius@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Apicius@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
            > Of
            > Justin Mansfield
            > Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2013 6:45 PM
            > To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: Re: [Apicius] Cardui
            >
            > I'm hard at work putting together all the ancient recipes, and modern
            > redactions. For now I'm not including the word *sfondilus*, which the big
            >
            > names of Roman food scholarship generally interpret as referring to the
            > mollusk of the same name. But there are several good possibilities already!
            >
            > On Sat, Aug 31, 2013 at 5:32 PM, Lucia Clark
            > <luciaclark@...>wrote:
            >
            > > **
            >
            > >
            > >
            > > My mother used to do a Parmigiana with them. Maybe with semi-soft cheese
            > > and
            > > a touch of Garum?
            > >
            > > _____
            > >
            > > From: Apicius@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Apicius@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
            > > Of
            > > Justin Mansfield
            > > Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2013 4:58 PM
            > > To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
            > > Subject: [Apicius] Cardui
            > >
            > >
            > > Just managed to get my hands on a head of cardoons! Now I just need to
            > > figure out what to do with them ;)
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            >
            > Post message: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
            > Unsubscribe: Apicius-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > List owner: Apicius-owner@yahoogroups.com
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >

            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



            ------------------------------------

            Post message: Apicius@yahoogroups.com 
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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Justin Mansfield
            OK, to help make sense of this: - I posted saying I had cardoons, and was researching them. - Lucia suggested a recipe - I said I was researching ancient
            Message 5 of 13 , Sep 1, 2013
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              OK, to help make sense of this:

              - I posted saying I had cardoons, and was researching them.
              - Lucia suggested a recipe
              - I said I was researching ancient recipes. There are a lot of terms for
              cardoons in Greek and Latin, and one is particularly thorny, namely *
              sfondilus*. That word has several meanings, including part of the
              cardoon, and a mollusk. When it occurs in Apicius, some editors say it
              refers to the vegetable, some to the mollusk. Therefore, I wasn't planning
              to include *sfondilus* recipes.
              - Lucia, curious about the *sfondilus* mollusk, suggests it might be the
              one called *scungilli* in Italian (so far as I can tell, in English it
              is considered a type of whelk, by the way)
              - I say that, in fact, it is supposedly *Spondylus gaederopus.*
              - Lucia posts an image of a *scungillo* for reference.

              So yes, we're kind of off topic, but what else is new? ;)

              So, to get back on topic, here's a list of my recipes (perhaps I'll give
              more details later):

              - The three recipes given in Apicius 3.19. Gozzini-Giacosa gives
              redactions of all three (though in these cases she substitutes artichokes),
              Faas gives one (and it looks pretty good, I may try it).
              - Pliny gives a recipe to preserve cardoons so you can have them all
              year round.
              - So does Theophrastus (though his is just to store it in brine)
              - Galen calls them unhealthy, but gives two ways to prepare them to
              mitigate this, one of which is fairly elaborate.

              So, that makes 7 recipes, of which 5 are at all detailed.




              On Sun, Sep 1, 2013 at 3:53 PM, Correus <correus@...> wrote:

              > **
              >
              >
              > Did an e-mail get mislaid? How did we go from "Cardui" to "sfondilus",
              > "scungilli" and "Spondylus gaederopus"?
              >
              > Last Cadiu e-mail I got said "My mother used to do a Parmigiana with them.
              > Maybe with semi-soft cheese and a touch of Garum?" and then it went to the
              > other.
              >
              > Correus
              >
              > ________________________________
              > From: Justin Mansfield <iustinus@...>
              > To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2013 9:00 PM
              > Subject: Re: [Apicius] Cardui
              >
              >
              > According to Andrew Dalby it's *Spondylus gaederopus*, the Spiny European
              >
              > Oyster. I don't know what its common Italian name is, but googling turns up
              > spondilo, spronnulo, ostrica rossa, ostrica spinosa, and scataponzolo.
              >
              > On Sat, Aug 31, 2013 at 6:57 PM, Lucia Clark <luciaclark@...
              > >wrote:
              >
              > > **
              >
              > >
              > >
              > > Could they be the modern "scungilli"?
              > >
              > >
              > > -----Original Message-----
              > > From: Apicius@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Apicius@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
              > > Of
              > > Justin Mansfield
              > > Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2013 6:45 PM
              > > To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
              > > Subject: Re: [Apicius] Cardui
              > >
              > > I'm hard at work putting together all the ancient recipes, and modern
              > > redactions. For now I'm not including the word *sfondilus*, which the big
              > >
              > > names of Roman food scholarship generally interpret as referring to the
              > > mollusk of the same name. But there are several good possibilities
              > already!
              > >
              > > On Sat, Aug 31, 2013 at 5:32 PM, Lucia Clark
              > > <luciaclark@...>wrote:
              > >
              > > > **
              > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > My mother used to do a Parmigiana with them. Maybe with semi-soft
              > cheese
              > > > and
              > > > a touch of Garum?
              > > >
              > > > _____
              > > >
              > > > From: Apicius@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Apicius@yahoogroups.com] On
              > Behalf
              > > > Of
              > > > Justin Mansfield
              > > > Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2013 4:58 PM
              > > > To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
              > > > Subject: [Apicius] Cardui
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Just managed to get my hands on a head of cardoons! Now I just need to
              > > > figure out what to do with them ;)
              > > >
              > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > > >
              > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >
              > > ------------------------------------
              > >
              > >
              > > Post message: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
              > > Unsubscribe: Apicius-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > > List owner: Apicius-owner@yahoogroups.com
              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Post message: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
              > Unsubscribe: Apicius-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > List owner: Apicius-owner@yahoogroups.com
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Justin Mansfield
              OK I m eating Apicius 3.19.2, according to Faas s redaction. Not bad! If any of you choose to make that, here are my notes: - Di immortales are cardoons hard
              Message 6 of 13 , Sep 1, 2013
              • 0 Attachment
                OK I'm eating Apicius 3.19.2, according to Faas's redaction. Not bad! If
                any of you choose to make that, here are my notes:

                - Di immortales are cardoons hard to trim!! Took forever!
                - The quantities of herbs he gives are quite large and result in a sort
                of chimichurri. Might be a good idea to reduce them at least a little.
                - 30 minutes on my stove was a little too long.
                - He forgets to list the pepper, so don't leave it out. Could also use
                some salt, I think.



                On Sun, Sep 1, 2013 at 4:34 PM, Justin Mansfield <iustinus@...> wrote:

                > OK, to help make sense of this:
                >
                > - I posted saying I had cardoons, and was researching them.
                > - Lucia suggested a recipe
                > - I said I was researching ancient recipes. There are a lot of terms
                > for cardoons in Greek and Latin, and one is particularly thorny, namely
                > *sfondilus*. That word has several meanings, including part of the
                > cardoon, and a mollusk. When it occurs in Apicius, some editors say it
                > refers to the vegetable, some to the mollusk. Therefore, I wasn't planning
                > to include *sfondilus* recipes.
                > - Lucia, curious about the *sfondilus* mollusk, suggests it might be
                > the one called *scungilli* in Italian (so far as I can tell, in
                > English it is considered a type of whelk, by the way)
                > - I say that, in fact, it is supposedly *Spondylus gaederopus.*
                > - Lucia posts an image of a *scungillo* for reference.
                >
                > So yes, we're kind of off topic, but what else is new? ;)
                >
                > So, to get back on topic, here's a list of my recipes (perhaps I'll give
                > more details later):
                >
                > - The three recipes given in Apicius 3.19. Gozzini-Giacosa gives
                > redactions of all three (though in these cases she substitutes artichokes),
                > Faas gives one (and it looks pretty good, I may try it).
                > - Pliny gives a recipe to preserve cardoons so you can have them all
                > year round.
                > - So does Theophrastus (though his is just to store it in brine)
                > - Galen calls them unhealthy, but gives two ways to prepare them to
                > mitigate this, one of which is fairly elaborate.
                >
                > So, that makes 7 recipes, of which 5 are at all detailed.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > On Sun, Sep 1, 2013 at 3:53 PM, Correus <correus@...> wrote:
                >
                >> **
                >>
                >>
                >> Did an e-mail get mislaid? How did we go from "Cardui" to "sfondilus",
                >> "scungilli" and "Spondylus gaederopus"?
                >>
                >> Last Cadiu e-mail I got said "My mother used to do a Parmigiana with
                >> them. Maybe with semi-soft cheese and a touch of Garum?" and then it went
                >> to the other.
                >>
                >> Correus
                >>
                >> ________________________________
                >> From: Justin Mansfield <iustinus@...>
                >> To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
                >> Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2013 9:00 PM
                >> Subject: Re: [Apicius] Cardui
                >>
                >>
                >> According to Andrew Dalby it's *Spondylus gaederopus*, the Spiny European
                >>
                >> Oyster. I don't know what its common Italian name is, but googling turns
                >> up
                >> spondilo, spronnulo, ostrica rossa, ostrica spinosa, and scataponzolo.
                >>
                >> On Sat, Aug 31, 2013 at 6:57 PM, Lucia Clark <luciaclark@...
                >> >wrote:
                >>
                >> > **
                >>
                >> >
                >> >
                >> > Could they be the modern "scungilli"?
                >> >
                >> >
                >> > -----Original Message-----
                >> > From: Apicius@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Apicius@yahoogroups.com] On
                >> Behalf
                >> > Of
                >> > Justin Mansfield
                >> > Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2013 6:45 PM
                >> > To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
                >> > Subject: Re: [Apicius] Cardui
                >> >
                >> > I'm hard at work putting together all the ancient recipes, and modern
                >> > redactions. For now I'm not including the word *sfondilus*, which the
                >> big
                >> >
                >> > names of Roman food scholarship generally interpret as referring to the
                >> > mollusk of the same name. But there are several good possibilities
                >> already!
                >> >
                >> > On Sat, Aug 31, 2013 at 5:32 PM, Lucia Clark
                >> > <luciaclark@...>wrote:
                >> >
                >> > > **
                >> >
                >> > >
                >> > >
                >> > > My mother used to do a Parmigiana with them. Maybe with semi-soft
                >> cheese
                >> > > and
                >> > > a touch of Garum?
                >> > >
                >> > > _____
                >> > >
                >> > > From: Apicius@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Apicius@yahoogroups.com] On
                >> Behalf
                >> > > Of
                >> > > Justin Mansfield
                >> > > Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2013 4:58 PM
                >> > > To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
                >> > > Subject: [Apicius] Cardui
                >> > >
                >> > >
                >> > > Just managed to get my hands on a head of cardoons! Now I just need to
                >> > > figure out what to do with them ;)
                >> > >
                >> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >> > >
                >> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >> > >
                >> > >
                >> > >
                >> >
                >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >> >
                >> > ------------------------------------
                >> >
                >> >
                >> > Post message: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
                >> > Unsubscribe: Apicius-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                >> > List owner: Apicius-owner@yahoogroups.com
                >> > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >> >
                >> >
                >> >
                >>
                >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >>
                >> ------------------------------------
                >>
                >> Post message: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
                >> Unsubscribe: Apicius-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                >> List owner: Apicius-owner@yahoogroups.com
                >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                >>
                >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Justin Mansfield
                One more detail, kind of silly: my girlfriend, who is not particularly interested in ancient food, and certainly not authenticity, said she thought it might be
                Message 7 of 13 , Sep 1, 2013
                • 0 Attachment
                  One more detail, kind of silly: my girlfriend, who is not particularly
                  interested in ancient food, and certainly not authenticity, said she
                  thought it might be good with pasta mixed in. Turns out she was right!


                  On Sun, Sep 1, 2013 at 8:27 PM, Justin Mansfield <iustinus@...> wrote:

                  > OK I'm eating Apicius 3.19.2, according to Faas's redaction. Not bad! If
                  > any of you choose to make that, here are my notes:
                  >
                  > - Di immortales are cardoons hard to trim!! Took forever!
                  > - The quantities of herbs he gives are quite large and result in a
                  > sort of chimichurri. Might be a good idea to reduce them at least a little.
                  > - 30 minutes on my stove was a little too long.
                  > - He forgets to list the pepper, so don't leave it out. Could also use
                  > some salt, I think.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > On Sun, Sep 1, 2013 at 4:34 PM, Justin Mansfield <iustinus@...>wrote:
                  >
                  >> OK, to help make sense of this:
                  >>
                  >> - I posted saying I had cardoons, and was researching them.
                  >> - Lucia suggested a recipe
                  >> - I said I was researching ancient recipes. There are a lot of terms
                  >> for cardoons in Greek and Latin, and one is particularly thorny, namely
                  >> *sfondilus*. That word has several meanings, including part of the
                  >> cardoon, and a mollusk. When it occurs in Apicius, some editors say it
                  >> refers to the vegetable, some to the mollusk. Therefore, I wasn't planning
                  >> to include *sfondilus* recipes.
                  >> - Lucia, curious about the *sfondilus* mollusk, suggests it might be
                  >> the one called *scungilli* in Italian (so far as I can tell, in
                  >> English it is considered a type of whelk, by the way)
                  >> - I say that, in fact, it is supposedly *Spondylus gaederopus.*
                  >> - Lucia posts an image of a *scungillo* for reference.
                  >>
                  >> So yes, we're kind of off topic, but what else is new? ;)
                  >>
                  >> So, to get back on topic, here's a list of my recipes (perhaps I'll give
                  >> more details later):
                  >>
                  >> - The three recipes given in Apicius 3.19. Gozzini-Giacosa gives
                  >> redactions of all three (though in these cases she substitutes artichokes),
                  >> Faas gives one (and it looks pretty good, I may try it).
                  >> - Pliny gives a recipe to preserve cardoons so you can have them all
                  >> year round.
                  >> - So does Theophrastus (though his is just to store it in brine)
                  >> - Galen calls them unhealthy, but gives two ways to prepare them to
                  >> mitigate this, one of which is fairly elaborate.
                  >>
                  >> So, that makes 7 recipes, of which 5 are at all detailed.
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> On Sun, Sep 1, 2013 at 3:53 PM, Correus <correus@...> wrote:
                  >>
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>> Did an e-mail get mislaid? How did we go from "Cardui" to "sfondilus",
                  >>> "scungilli" and "Spondylus gaederopus"?
                  >>>
                  >>> Last Cadiu e-mail I got said "My mother used to do a Parmigiana with
                  >>> them. Maybe with semi-soft cheese and a touch of Garum?" and then it went
                  >>> to the other.
                  >>>
                  >>> Correus
                  >>>
                  >>> ________________________________
                  >>> From: Justin Mansfield <iustinus@...>
                  >>> To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
                  >>> Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2013 9:00 PM
                  >>> Subject: Re: [Apicius] Cardui
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>> According to Andrew Dalby it's *Spondylus gaederopus*, the Spiny European
                  >>>
                  >>> Oyster. I don't know what its common Italian name is, but googling turns
                  >>> up
                  >>> spondilo, spronnulo, ostrica rossa, ostrica spinosa, and scataponzolo.
                  >>>
                  >>> On Sat, Aug 31, 2013 at 6:57 PM, Lucia Clark <
                  >>> luciaclark@...>wrote:
                  >>>
                  >>> > **
                  >>>
                  >>> >
                  >>> >
                  >>> > Could they be the modern "scungilli"?
                  >>> >
                  >>> >
                  >>> > -----Original Message-----
                  >>> > From: Apicius@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Apicius@yahoogroups.com] On
                  >>> Behalf
                  >>> > Of
                  >>> > Justin Mansfield
                  >>> > Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2013 6:45 PM
                  >>> > To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
                  >>> > Subject: Re: [Apicius] Cardui
                  >>> >
                  >>> > I'm hard at work putting together all the ancient recipes, and modern
                  >>> > redactions. For now I'm not including the word *sfondilus*, which the
                  >>> big
                  >>> >
                  >>> > names of Roman food scholarship generally interpret as referring to the
                  >>> > mollusk of the same name. But there are several good possibilities
                  >>> already!
                  >>> >
                  >>> > On Sat, Aug 31, 2013 at 5:32 PM, Lucia Clark
                  >>> > <luciaclark@...>wrote:
                  >>> >
                  >>> > > **
                  >>> >
                  >>> > >
                  >>> > >
                  >>> > > My mother used to do a Parmigiana with them. Maybe with semi-soft
                  >>> cheese
                  >>> > > and
                  >>> > > a touch of Garum?
                  >>> > >
                  >>> > > _____
                  >>> > >
                  >>> > > From: Apicius@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Apicius@yahoogroups.com] On
                  >>> Behalf
                  >>> > > Of
                  >>> > > Justin Mansfield
                  >>> > > Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2013 4:58 PM
                  >>> > > To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
                  >>> > > Subject: [Apicius] Cardui
                  >>> > >
                  >>> > >
                  >>> > > Just managed to get my hands on a head of cardoons! Now I just need
                  >>> to
                  >>> > > figure out what to do with them ;)
                  >>> > >
                  >>> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >>> > >
                  >>> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >>> > >
                  >>> > >
                  >>> > >
                  >>> >
                  >>> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >>> >
                  >>> > ------------------------------------
                  >>> >
                  >>> >
                  >>> > Post message: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
                  >>> > Unsubscribe: Apicius-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >>> > List owner: Apicius-owner@yahoogroups.com
                  >>> > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >>> >
                  >>> >
                  >>> >
                  >>>
                  >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >>>
                  >>> ------------------------------------
                  >>>
                  >>> Post message: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
                  >>> Unsubscribe: Apicius-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >>> List owner: Apicius-owner@yahoogroups.com
                  >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >>>
                  >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Lucia Clark
                  Yep, there is a Sardinian pasta dish that uses cardoons ... From: Apicius@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Apicius@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Justin Mansfield Sent:
                  Message 8 of 13 , Sep 2, 2013
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Yep, there is a Sardinian pasta dish that uses cardoons

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Apicius@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Apicius@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                    Justin Mansfield
                    Sent: Sunday, September 01, 2013 9:34 PM
                    To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [Apicius] Cardui

                    One more detail, kind of silly: my girlfriend, who is not particularly
                    interested in ancient food, and certainly not authenticity, said she
                    thought it might be good with pasta mixed in. Turns out she was right!


                    On Sun, Sep 1, 2013 at 8:27 PM, Justin Mansfield <iustinus@...> wrote:

                    > OK I'm eating Apicius 3.19.2, according to Faas's redaction. Not bad! If
                    > any of you choose to make that, here are my notes:
                    >
                    > - Di immortales are cardoons hard to trim!! Took forever!
                    > - The quantities of herbs he gives are quite large and result in a
                    > sort of chimichurri. Might be a good idea to reduce them at least a
                    little.
                    > - 30 minutes on my stove was a little too long.
                    > - He forgets to list the pepper, so don't leave it out. Could also use
                    > some salt, I think.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > On Sun, Sep 1, 2013 at 4:34 PM, Justin Mansfield
                    <iustinus@...>wrote:
                    >
                    >> OK, to help make sense of this:
                    >>
                    >> - I posted saying I had cardoons, and was researching them.
                    >> - Lucia suggested a recipe
                    >> - I said I was researching ancient recipes. There are a lot of terms
                    >> for cardoons in Greek and Latin, and one is particularly thorny,
                    namely
                    >> *sfondilus*. That word has several meanings, including part of the
                    >> cardoon, and a mollusk. When it occurs in Apicius, some editors say it
                    >> refers to the vegetable, some to the mollusk. Therefore, I wasn't
                    planning
                    >> to include *sfondilus* recipes.
                    >> - Lucia, curious about the *sfondilus* mollusk, suggests it might be
                    >> the one called *scungilli* in Italian (so far as I can tell, in
                    >> English it is considered a type of whelk, by the way)
                    >> - I say that, in fact, it is supposedly *Spondylus gaederopus.*
                    >> - Lucia posts an image of a *scungillo* for reference.
                    >>
                    >> So yes, we're kind of off topic, but what else is new? ;)
                    >>
                    >> So, to get back on topic, here's a list of my recipes (perhaps I'll give
                    >> more details later):
                    >>
                    >> - The three recipes given in Apicius 3.19. Gozzini-Giacosa gives
                    >> redactions of all three (though in these cases she substitutes
                    artichokes),
                    >> Faas gives one (and it looks pretty good, I may try it).
                    >> - Pliny gives a recipe to preserve cardoons so you can have them all
                    >> year round.
                    >> - So does Theophrastus (though his is just to store it in brine)
                    >> - Galen calls them unhealthy, but gives two ways to prepare them to
                    >> mitigate this, one of which is fairly elaborate.
                    >>
                    >> So, that makes 7 recipes, of which 5 are at all detailed.
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> On Sun, Sep 1, 2013 at 3:53 PM, Correus <correus@...> wrote:
                    >>
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>> Did an e-mail get mislaid? How did we go from "Cardui" to "sfondilus",
                    >>> "scungilli" and "Spondylus gaederopus"?
                    >>>
                    >>> Last Cadiu e-mail I got said "My mother used to do a Parmigiana with
                    >>> them. Maybe with semi-soft cheese and a touch of Garum?" and then it
                    went
                    >>> to the other.
                    >>>
                    >>> Correus
                    >>>
                    >>> ________________________________
                    >>> From: Justin Mansfield <iustinus@...>
                    >>> To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
                    >>> Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2013 9:00 PM
                    >>> Subject: Re: [Apicius] Cardui
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>> According to Andrew Dalby it's *Spondylus gaederopus*, the Spiny
                    European
                    >>>
                    >>> Oyster. I don't know what its common Italian name is, but googling turns
                    >>> up
                    >>> spondilo, spronnulo, ostrica rossa, ostrica spinosa, and scataponzolo.
                    >>>
                    >>> On Sat, Aug 31, 2013 at 6:57 PM, Lucia Clark <
                    >>> luciaclark@...>wrote:
                    >>>
                    >>> > **
                    >>>
                    >>> >
                    >>> >
                    >>> > Could they be the modern "scungilli"?
                    >>> >
                    >>> >
                    >>> > -----Original Message-----
                    >>> > From: Apicius@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Apicius@yahoogroups.com] On
                    >>> Behalf
                    >>> > Of
                    >>> > Justin Mansfield
                    >>> > Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2013 6:45 PM
                    >>> > To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
                    >>> > Subject: Re: [Apicius] Cardui
                    >>> >
                    >>> > I'm hard at work putting together all the ancient recipes, and modern
                    >>> > redactions. For now I'm not including the word *sfondilus*, which the
                    >>> big
                    >>> >
                    >>> > names of Roman food scholarship generally interpret as referring to
                    the
                    >>> > mollusk of the same name. But there are several good possibilities
                    >>> already!
                    >>> >
                    >>> > On Sat, Aug 31, 2013 at 5:32 PM, Lucia Clark
                    >>> > <luciaclark@...>wrote:
                    >>> >
                    >>> > > **
                    >>> >
                    >>> > >
                    >>> > >
                    >>> > > My mother used to do a Parmigiana with them. Maybe with semi-soft
                    >>> cheese
                    >>> > > and
                    >>> > > a touch of Garum?
                    >>> > >
                    >>> > > _____
                    >>> > >
                    >>> > > From: Apicius@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Apicius@yahoogroups.com] On
                    >>> Behalf
                    >>> > > Of
                    >>> > > Justin Mansfield
                    >>> > > Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2013 4:58 PM
                    >>> > > To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
                    >>> > > Subject: [Apicius] Cardui
                    >>> > >
                    >>> > >
                    >>> > > Just managed to get my hands on a head of cardoons! Now I just need
                    >>> to
                    >>> > > figure out what to do with them ;)
                    >>> > >
                    >>> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >>> > >
                    >>> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >>> > >
                    >>> > >
                    >>> > >
                    >>> >
                    >>> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >>> >
                    >>> > ------------------------------------
                    >>> >
                    >>> >
                    >>> > Post message: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
                    >>> > Unsubscribe: Apicius-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    >>> > List owner: Apicius-owner@yahoogroups.com
                    >>> > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >>> >
                    >>> >
                    >>> >
                    >>>
                    >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >>>
                    >>> ------------------------------------
                    >>>
                    >>> Post message: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
                    >>> Unsubscribe: Apicius-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    >>> List owner: Apicius-owner@yahoogroups.com
                    >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >>>
                    >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                    ------------------------------------

                    Post message: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
                    Unsubscribe: Apicius-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                    Yahoo! Groups Links
                  • wimb3612
                    Hi, I have been struggling with Sponduli for quite some time. It appears in Diocletian s price edict as Sponduli marini ( list 5.10), which is translated as
                    Message 9 of 13 , Jul 14, 2014
                    • 0 Attachment


                      Hi,

                           I have been struggling with Sponduli for quite some time. It appears in Diocletian's price edict as Sponduli marini ( list 5.10), which is translated as mussels  by both Graser into English and Giacchero into Italian. That doesn't make much sense , as there are better and more commonly used  Latin words for mussels, but otherwise the absence of mussels from the edict seems weird. I have a suspicion the translations are wrong, as  lots of  other relatively well known Roman seafood, such as shrimp, eel and individually identified fish species also don't make it into the edict.

                      The word Sponduli then appears four lines later in the edict   near the start of the vegetables (list 6.2), translated by bothGraser and Giacchero as hearts of artichoke. Even the Romans got mixed up about their sponduli, as one of the fragments that has survived, at Sandikli in modern Turkey skips the 3 lines in between the two sponduli entries and goes straight from the  seafood sponduli to the entry after the vegetable sponduli, missing  the  products in between ( Cheese, sardines, large artichokes and the second sponduli entry) so someone, either the carver or the writer of the document the carver was working from got his Sponduli mixed up.

                      Can anyone help  enlighten me as to how the seafood sponduli should be translated in the edict?

                       

                       

                      thanks,

                       

                      howard posner

                    • Justin Mansfield
                      As I wrote earlier in this thread According to Andrew Dalby it s *Spondylus gaederopus*, the Spiny European ... For more info on this creature, see its
                      Message 10 of 13 , Jul 14, 2014
                      • 0 Attachment
                        As I wrote earlier in this thread

                        According to Andrew Dalby it's Spondylus gaederopus, the Spiny European Oyster.

                         For more info on this creature, see its wikipedia entry at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spondylus_gaederopus



                        On Mon, Jul 14, 2014 at 9:48 PM, wimb3612@... [Apicius] <Apicius@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                         


                        Hi,

                             I have been struggling with Sponduli for quite some time. It appears in Diocletian's price edict as Sponduli marini ( list 5.10), which is translated as mussels  by both Graser into English and Giacchero into Italian. That doesn't make much sense , as there are better and more commonly used  Latin words for mussels, but otherwise the absence of mussels from the edict seems weird. I have a suspicion the translations are wrong, as  lots of  other relatively well known Roman seafood, such as shrimp, eel and individually identified fish species also don't make it into the edict.

                        The word Sponduli then appears four lines later in the edict   near the start of the vegetables (list 6.2), translated by bothGraser and Giacchero as hearts of artichoke. Even the Romans got mixed up about their sponduli, as one of the fragments that has survived, at Sandikli in modern Turkey skips the 3 lines in between the two sponduli entries and goes straight from the  seafood sponduli to the entry after the vegetable sponduli, missing  the  products in between ( Cheese, sardines, large artichokes and the second sponduli entry) so someone, either the carver or the writer of the document the carver was working from got his Sponduli mixed up.

                        Can anyone help  enlighten me as to how the seafood sponduli should be translated in the edict?

                         

                         

                        thanks,

                         

                        howard posner


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