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Re: Cucurbita

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  • Ross
    Ah yes. Stupid me, I didn t even go back and check Apicius text. I don t think there is an equivalent for bottle gourds though. :-(
    Message 1 of 29 , May 24, 2013
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      Ah yes. Stupid me, I didn't even go back and check Apicius' text.

      I don't think there is an equivalent for bottle gourds though. :-(


      --- In Apicius@yahoogroups.com, Correus <correus@...> wrote:
      >
      > They are also native to the old world.  The ones you are thinking of were given the Latin term 'Cucurbita' as well.  There is a section covering this in Apicius.  Since "gourds" in Roman recipes are believed to refer to the genus Lagenaria, the Chinese Bottle Gourd, and they are not all that common in my part of the US (closest China Town to me is about 400 miles away).  So I thought I'd see what others use instead of the Bottle Gourd.
      >
      > Here is a sampling of the Cucurbita listen in Apicius:
      >
      > CUCURBITAS MORE ALEXNDRINO;
      > GUSTUM DE CUCURBITIS;
      > ALITER CUCURBITAS IURE COLOCASIORUM;
      > ALITER CUCURBITAS FRICTAS TRITAS; and
      > ALITER CUCURBITAS CUM GALLINA - to name a few.
      >
      > Correus
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ________________________________
      > From: Ross <telamonian_teukros@...>
      > To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 12:00 AM
      > Subject: [Apicius] Re: Cucurbita
      >
      >
      >
      >  
      > Cucurbita are native to the Americas. Are you thinking of bottle gourds? If so, try a good Indian grocery or visit your nearest Chinatown.
      >
      > --- In Apicius@yahoogroups.com, Correus <correus@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Ave!
      > >
      > > For those of you who live in the US - what do you use for Cucurbita?
      > >
      > > Vale ~
      > >
      > > Correus
      > >
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • Ross
      Googling around on the Internet, it looks like zucchinis might be a decent approximation for the taste, different texture though.
      Message 2 of 29 , May 24, 2013
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        Googling around on the Internet, it looks like zucchinis might be a decent approximation for the taste, different texture though.


        --- In Apicius@yahoogroups.com, Correus <correus@...> wrote:
        >
        > They are also native to the old world.  The ones you are thinking of were given the Latin term 'Cucurbita' as well.  There is a section covering this in Apicius.  Since "gourds" in Roman recipes are believed to refer to the genus Lagenaria, the Chinese Bottle Gourd, and they are not all that common in my part of the US (closest China Town to me is about 400 miles away).  So I thought I'd see what others use instead of the Bottle Gourd.
        >
        > Here is a sampling of the Cucurbita listen in Apicius:
        >
        > CUCURBITAS MORE ALEXNDRINO;
        > GUSTUM DE CUCURBITIS;
        > ALITER CUCURBITAS IURE COLOCASIORUM;
        > ALITER CUCURBITAS FRICTAS TRITAS; and
        > ALITER CUCURBITAS CUM GALLINA - to name a few.
        >
        > Correus
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ________________________________
        > From: Ross <telamonian_teukros@...>
        > To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 12:00 AM
        > Subject: [Apicius] Re: Cucurbita
        >
        >
        >
        >  
        > Cucurbita are native to the Americas. Are you thinking of bottle gourds? If so, try a good Indian grocery or visit your nearest Chinatown.
        >
        > --- In Apicius@yahoogroups.com, Correus <correus@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Ave!
        > >
        > > For those of you who live in the US - what do you use for Cucurbita?
        > >
        > > Vale ~
        > >
        > > Correus
        > >
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • Justin Mansfield
        I ve never made a cucurbita recipe, but it seems calabash is still used in Chinese and Indian cuisine (
        Message 3 of 29 , May 25, 2013
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          I've never made a cucurbita recipe, but it seems calabash is still used in
          Chinese and Indian cuisine (
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lagenaria_siceraria#Culinary_uses), so I bet
          it's possible to find it in the US, if you know where to look.

          On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 9:09 PM, Correus <correus@...> wrote:

          > **
          >
          >
          > Ave!
          >
          > For those of you who live in the US - what do you use for Cucurbita?
          >
          > Vale ~
          >
          > Correus
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Larry Simpson
          There is one Indian shop and about six oriental stores in my area - only three carry fresh veggies. I ve tried to get a bottle gourd from them in the past but
          Message 4 of 29 , May 25, 2013
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            There is one Indian shop and about six oriental stores in my area - only three carry fresh veggies. I've tried to get a bottle gourd from them in the past but have failed. The Indian shop use to carry it frozen though.

            We do have a gourmet/health food shop in the area that claims to carry the most exotic produce - but they don't have it either.

            I need to go into the city next we though so I'll go by those places again to check.

            The Wichita metro area just doesn't support those types of stores all that much and there is no "China Town".

            Correus

            On May 25, 2013, at 10:37, Justin Mansfield <iustinus@...> wrote:

            > I've never made a cucurbita recipe, but it seems calabash is still used in
            > Chinese and Indian cuisine (
            > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lagenaria_siceraria#Culinary_uses), so I bet
            > it's possible to find it in the US, if you know where to look.
            >
            > On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 9:09 PM, Correus <correus@...> wrote:
            >
            >> **
            >>
            >>
            >> Ave!
            >>
            >> For those of you who live in the US - what do you use for Cucurbita?
            >>
            >> Vale ~
            >>
            >> Correus
            >>
            >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Post message: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
            > Unsubscribe: Apicius-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > List owner: Apicius-owner@yahoogroups.com
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            >
            >
            >
          • Justin Mansfield
            I should see if I can find it here in Chicago, though obviously that won t mean anything for you, or most listmembers. Still, probably worth knowing. ...
            Message 5 of 29 , May 25, 2013
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              I should see if I can find it here in Chicago, though obviously that won't
              mean anything for you, or most listmembers. Still, probably worth knowing.

              On Sat, May 25, 2013 at 11:21 AM, Larry Simpson <correus@...> wrote:

              > **
              >
              >
              > There is one Indian shop and about six oriental stores in my area - only
              > three carry fresh veggies. I've tried to get a bottle gourd from them in
              > the past but have failed. The Indian shop use to carry it frozen though.
              >
              > We do have a gourmet/health food shop in the area that claims to carry the
              > most exotic produce - but they don't have it either.
              >
              > I need to go into the city next we though so I'll go by those places again
              > to check.
              >
              > The Wichita metro area just doesn't support those types of stores all that
              > much and there is no "China Town".
              >
              > Correus
              >
              >
              > On May 25, 2013, at 10:37, Justin Mansfield <iustinus@...> wrote:
              >
              > > I've never made a cucurbita recipe, but it seems calabash is still used
              > in
              > > Chinese and Indian cuisine (
              > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lagenaria_siceraria#Culinary_uses), so I
              > bet
              > > it's possible to find it in the US, if you know where to look.
              > >
              > > On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 9:09 PM, Correus <correus@...> wrote:
              > >
              > >> **
              >
              > >>
              > >>
              > >> Ave!
              > >>
              > >> For those of you who live in the US - what do you use for Cucurbita?
              > >>
              > >> Vale ~
              > >>
              > >> Correus
              > >>
              > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ------------------------------------
              >
              > >
              > > Post message: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
              > > Unsubscribe: Apicius-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > > List owner: Apicius-owner@yahoogroups.com
              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Ross
              Kashmiri dried bottle gourd is called al hac h . I don t know if there are any American online stores that stock it. I tried several including Kalustyans.com
              Message 6 of 29 , May 25, 2013
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                Kashmiri dried bottle gourd is called "al hac'h". I don't know if there are any American online stores that stock it. I tried several including Kalustyans.com and no one seems to have it. :-( Ebay might be a possibility.

                Of course searching for dried bottle gourd on Amazon.com is a fairly fruitless endeavor. No pun intended.
              • Lori Tishgart
                I haven t tried it yet, but it sounds interesting.  I wonder if the recipe refers to the North African Calabash (Bottle Gourd).  I have seen the vine growing
                Message 7 of 29 , May 25, 2013
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                  I haven't tried it yet, but it sounds interesting.  I wonder if the recipe refers to the North African Calabash (Bottle Gourd).  I have seen the vine growing over houses all over Ethiopia.  There, the very young fruit can be eaten or the young leaves and shoots.  The fruit is mainly dried and used everywhere to carry butter and milk in.
                  A quick search for "lauki" (the Indian version of Calabash) shows that they are sold fresh (via Amazon)  through an Indian store in Overland Park, KS!  Here is their link:
                  http://www.amazon.com/Indian-Vegetable-Dudhi-Lauki-White/dp/B009IQ9P9Y/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1369505516&sr=8-4&keywords=lauki
                  Let us know what happens!  Lori

                  --- On Fri, 5/24/13, Correus <correus@...> wrote:

                  From: Correus <correus@...>
                  Subject: [Apicius] Cucurbita
                  To: "Apicius@yahoogroups.com" <Apicius@yahoogroups.com>
                  Date: Friday, May 24, 2013, 7:09 PM
















                   









                  Ave!



                  For those of you who live in the US - what do you use for Cucurbita?



                  Vale ~



                  Correus



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



























                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • anahita_al_shazhiyya
                  ... I use opo, which is a curcubita. Apparently when it gets old is used to make dried gourd containers, after all, it s also called bottle gourd. When young,
                  Message 8 of 29 , May 25, 2013
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                    Correus wrote:
                    > For those of you who live in the US - what do you use for Cucurbita?

                    I use opo, which is a curcubita. Apparently when it gets old is used to make dried gourd containers, after all, it's also called bottle gourd. When young, however, its skin is smooth and a medium pale green, it has nearly white flesh (faintly greenish), and has a mild flavor with a hint of cucumber. It is SOOOOOOO much better than zucchini, which i've seen people use as a substitute (zucchini is descended from New World squashes). It isn't watery like zucchini and tasted good raw. It can be cooked to a firm or soft consistency.

                    There are photos of some different varieties here:
                    http://www.evergreenseeds.com/calgouropo.html
                    I've never seen the big spherical kind.
                    http://www.agrohaitai.com/fruit&gourd/bottlegourd/bottlegourd.htm
                    (Lagenaria siceraria var.clavata)
                    I am not promoting these websites and i have never purchased anything from them. They just have some useful photos and info.

                    Opo are sold at my local market, The Berkeley Bowl, but it always carries an amazing array of usual fruits and vegetables and unusual varieties not in most markets. Opo is used in Filipino, South Asian, and other Asian cuisines, so if you have South Asian or Southeast Asian or East Asian markets, i'd recommend looking there.

                    Anahita
                  • Correus
                    When I looked for a substitute for the Chinese Bottle Gourd all the sites suggested zucchini.  I m wonder though if Cucurbita could be more of a generic term
                    Message 9 of 29 , May 25, 2013
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                      When I looked for a substitute for the Chinese Bottle Gourd all the sites suggested zucchini. 

                      I'm wonder though if Cucurbita could be more of a generic term instead an exact item?  Example - we may have a recipe that says "take a pound of meat" and therefore you use what ever meat you want.  Could the use of Cucurbita have simply meant "use what ever type of edible vegetable gourd you want?

                      I've been trying to research Cucurbita and it appears to be a subject that is still debated.  I have found some interesting articles with the links below.  The first one is more on topic for us than the others but the others add some interesting aspects.

                      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2759226/


                      http://www.bible-history.com/faussets/G/Gourd/

                      http://eol.org/pages/595796/details

                      http://rsc.byu.edu/archived/book-mormon-keystone-scripture/11-categories-evidence-old-world-contacts-ancient-america

                      http://www.ukessays.com/essays/history/bottle-gourd-as-proof-of-african-presence-history-essay.php

                      http://www.enotes.com/squash-gourds-reference/squash-gourds

                      I have used several different gourds/squash to make the various Cucurbita recipes with Acorn squash and Zucchini being my favorite.  I see no major issue with using any gourd/squash you would like - however, if you are trying to be as accurate as humanly possible I would suggest, as you and others have suggested, use the bottle gourd, snake gourd, etc., IF you can ind them.

                      This is part of what makes Ancient Roman cooking so fun!!!  It's part foodie, part mystery and part science.  


                      Vale ~
                      Correus




                      ________________________________
                      From: Ross <telamonian_teukros@...>
                      To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 1:07 AM
                      Subject: [Apicius] Re: Cucurbita



                       
                      Googling around on the Internet, it looks like zucchinis might be a decent approximation for the taste, different texture though.

                      --- In Apicius@yahoogroups.com, Correus <correus@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > They are also native to the old world.  The ones you are thinking of were given the Latin term 'Cucurbita' as well.  There is a section covering this in Apicius.  Since "gourds" in Roman recipes are believed to refer to the genus Lagenaria, the Chinese Bottle Gourd, and they are not all that common in my part of the US (closest China Town to me is about 400 miles away).  So I thought I'd see what others use instead of the Bottle Gourd.
                      >
                      > Here is a sampling of the Cucurbita listen in Apicius:
                      >
                      > CUCURBITAS MORE ALEXNDRINO;
                      > GUSTUM DE CUCURBITIS;
                      > ALITERCUCURBITASIURECOLOCASIORUM;
                      > ALITERCUCURBITASFRICTASTRITAS; and
                      > ALITERCUCURBITAS CUM GALLINA - to name a few.
                      >
                      > Correus
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ________________________________
                      > From: Ross <telamonian_teukros@...>
                      > To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
                      > Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 12:00 AM
                      > Subject: [Apicius] Re: Cucurbita
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >  
                      > Cucurbita are native to the Americas. Are you thinking of bottle gourds? If so, try a good Indian grocery or visit your nearest Chinatown.
                      >
                      > --- In Apicius@yahoogroups.com, Correus <correus@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Ave!
                      > >
                      > > For those of you who live in the US - what do you use for Cucurbita?
                      > >
                      > > Vale ~
                      > >
                      > > Correus
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >




                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Correus
                      I ll see if I can find this at one of the specialty stores.  We only have 6 Asian markets; none are specialized that I m aware of - you know Japanese, Korean,
                      Message 10 of 29 , May 25, 2013
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                        I'll see if I can find this at one of the specialty stores.  We only have 6 Asian markets; none are specialized that I'm aware of - you know Japanese, Korean, South Asian or Southeast Asian or East Asian - they are just "Asian".  Kind of sucks living in the center of the Midwest...... 

                        HOWEVER - there is an Asian market that is going through a re-build.  When done it is suppose to be an Asian version of Wal-Mart - lots and lots of Asian food items including fresh fish, red meat, poultry and veggies!!!   I'm hoping they will carry fresh sardines and mackerel as well as fresh quails eggs, water buffalo and of course the veggies!!!!

                        Correus




                        ________________________________
                        From: "lilinah@..." <lilinah@...>
                        To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 6:19 PM
                        Subject: Re: [Apicius] Cucurbita



                         
                        Correus wrote:
                        > For those of you who live in the US - what do you use for Cucurbita?

                        I use opo, which is a curcubita. Apparently when it gets old is used to make dried gourd containers, after all, it's also called bottle gourd. When young, however, its skin is smooth and a medium pale green, it has nearly white flesh (faintly greenish), and has a mild flavor with a hint of cucumber. It is SOOOOOOO much better than zucchini, which i've seen people use as a substitute (zucchini is descended from New World squashes). It isn't watery like zucchini and tasted good raw. It can be cooked to a firm or soft consistency.

                        There are photos of some different varieties here:
                        http://www.evergreenseeds.com/calgouropo.html
                        I've never seen the big spherical kind.
                        http://www.agrohaitai.com/fruit&gourd/bottlegourd/bottlegourd.htm
                        (Lagenariasiceraria var.clavata)
                        I am not promoting these websites and i have never purchased anything from them. They just have some useful photos and info.

                        Opo are sold at my local market, The Berkeley Bowl, but it always carries an amazing array of usual fruits and vegetables and unusual varieties not in most markets. Opo is used in Filipino, South Asian, and other Asian cuisines, so if you have South Asian or Southeast Asian or East Asian markets, i'd recommend looking there.

                        Anahita



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Ross
                        ... I would tend to think you are right. I like to experiment and come up with my own Roman-ish recipes myself, running before I can walk no doubt, as there is
                        Message 11 of 29 , May 25, 2013
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                          --- In Apicius@yahoogroups.com, Correus <correus@...> wrote:
                          > I'm wonder though if Cucurbita could be more of a generic term instead an exact item?  Example - we may have a recipe that says "take a pound of meat" and therefore you use what ever meat you want.  Could the use of Cucurbita have simply meant "use what ever type of edible vegetable gourd you want?

                          I would tend to think you are right. I like to experiment and come up with my own Roman-ish recipes myself, running before I can walk no doubt, as there is still so much for me to learn about Roman taste, preferences and food in general.


                          > This is part of what makes Ancient Roman cooking so fun!!!  It's part foodie, part mystery and part science.  

                          >
                          >
                          > Vale ~
                          > Correus
                        • anahita_al_shazhiyya
                          ... [SNIP] ... Well, winter squashes like Acorn squash taste good, but they VERY FAR from Old World gourds in color, flavor, cooking time, etc., and to me that
                          Message 12 of 29 , May 25, 2013
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                            Correus wrote:
                            > When I looked for a substitute for the Chinese Bottle Gourd all the sites
                            > suggested zucchini. 

                            [SNIP]

                            > I have used several different gourds/squash to make the various Cucurbita recipes
                            > with Acorn squash and Zucchini being my favorite. I see no major issue with using
                            > any gourd/squash you would like - however, if you are trying to be as accurate as
                            > humanly possible I would suggest, as you and others have suggested, use the bottle
                            > gourd, snake gourd, etc., IF you can ind them.

                            Well, winter squashes like Acorn squash taste good, but they VERY FAR from Old World gourds in color, flavor, cooking time, etc., and to me that makes a great and significant difference - it's like substituting peaches for oranges. If you can find young Luffa gourds, they are a suitable substitute - yeah, Chinatown, probably - sorry it's so far from you.

                            In my experience zucchini is much much more watery than young gourds; so first there is a texture difference, and second, the amount of liquid affects the cooking. Third there is flavor difference - the langenaria i've used have a light fresh flavor, and opo has a faint hint of cucumber, which zucchinis lack - note i detest the typical cucumber sold in stupor markets and prefer so-called "English" or "hot-house" cucumbers and Persian cucumbers, which are MUCH less watery (and burp-y) than standard cukes; plus the skins are not tough and the seeds are not so big and hard.

                            Nonetheless, summer squashes are closer to langenaria than any winter squash - winter squashes tend to have yellow or orange flesh, much more natural sweetness, and a distinct flavor, besides being HARD and needing longer cooking.

                            If i were going to use a New World-descended squash to sub for opo, i would go for pattypan squash, as being closer in texture and liquid content. These are round and not quite flat, with a scalloped edge, and color similar to opo. Here's a photo:
                            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pattypan_squash

                            Anahita
                          • Pamela Herbert
                            Actually what you may be able to find is the Cucuzzi gourd. It is listed as a variety of calabash on Wikipedia but is prepared more like zuccini or other
                            Message 13 of 29 , May 25, 2013
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                              Actually what you may be able to find is the Cucuzzi gourd. It is listed
                              as a variety of calabash on Wikipedia but is prepared more like zuccini or
                              other summer squash. I have seen them at my local farmer's auction and are
                              very popular with Italian families from the NYC area where they are called
                              cucuzza or googuzza. I haven't cooked one but the ladies come back often
                              to buy more.

                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calabash

                              Something else from these plants is tenerumi. These are the tender shoots
                              of the plant and are used in soups in Sicilian cooking.

                              One thing about them is they must be picked and cooked while young. They
                              can grow over two feet long and up to six inches in diameter, the larger
                              they are the tougher the skin becomes and the seeds develop. They need to
                              be peeled and cored if harvested too late. Kinda like a giant zuccini
                              but the seeds are very different.

                              Hope this helps,

                              Brigit




                              On Sat, May 25, 2013 at 10:02 PM, <lilinah@...> wrote:

                              > **
                              >
                              >
                              > Correus wrote:
                              > > When I looked for a substitute for the Chinese Bottle Gourd all the
                              > sites
                              > > suggested zucchini.
                              >
                              > [SNIP]
                              >
                              >
                              > > I have used several different gourds/squash to make the various
                              > Cucurbita recipes
                              > > with Acorn squash and Zucchini being my favorite. I see no major issue
                              > with using
                              > > any gourd/squash you would like - however, if you are trying to be as
                              > accurate as
                              > > humanly possible I would suggest, as you and others have suggested, use
                              > the bottle
                              > > gourd, snake gourd, etc., IF you can ind them.
                              >
                              > Well, winter squashes like Acorn squash taste good, but they VERY FAR from
                              > Old World gourds in color, flavor, cooking time, etc., and to me that makes
                              > a great and significant difference - it's like substituting peaches for
                              > oranges. If you can find young Luffa gourds, they are a suitable substitute
                              > - yeah, Chinatown, probably - sorry it's so far from you.
                              >
                              > In my experience zucchini is much much more watery than young gourds; so
                              > first there is a texture difference, and second, the amount of liquid
                              > affects the cooking. Third there is flavor difference - the langenaria i've
                              > used have a light fresh flavor, and opo has a faint hint of cucumber, which
                              > zucchinis lack - note i detest the typical cucumber sold in stupor markets
                              > and prefer so-called "English" or "hot-house" cucumbers and Persian
                              > cucumbers, which are MUCH less watery (and burp-y) than standard cukes;
                              > plus the skins are not tough and the seeds are not so big and hard.
                              >
                              > Nonetheless, summer squashes are closer to langenaria than any winter
                              > squash - winter squashes tend to have yellow or orange flesh, much more
                              > natural sweetness, and a distinct flavor, besides being HARD and needing
                              > longer cooking.
                              >
                              > If i were going to use a New World-descended squash to sub for opo, i
                              > would go for pattypan squash, as being closer in texture and liquid
                              > content. These are round and not quite flat, with a scalloped edge, and
                              > color similar to opo. Here's a photo:
                              > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pattypan_squash
                              >
                              > Anahita
                              >
                              >
                              >



                              --
                              �To laugh often and much; to win the respect of intelligent people and the
                              affection of children...to leave the world a better place...to know even
                              one life has breathed easier because you have lived. This is to have
                              succeeded.� Ralph Waldo Emerson

                              The greatest mistake you can make in life is to be continually fearing you
                              will make one.
                              Elbert Hubbard (1856 - 1915)


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Correus
                              Now this stuff I have had...it was okay but something just seemed odd about it.  They carry the dried version at the Indian shop as well as a couple other
                              Message 14 of 29 , May 25, 2013
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Now this stuff I have had...it was okay but something just seemed odd about it.  They carry the dried version at the Indian shop as well as a couple other places in the area I'm aware of.

                                Correus




                                ________________________________
                                From: Ross <telamonian_teukros@...>
                                To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 12:24 PM
                                Subject: [Apicius] Re: Cucurbita



                                 

                                Kashmiri dried bottle gourd is called "al hac'h". I don't know if there are any American online stores that stock it. I tried several including Kalustyans.com and no one seems to have it. :-( Ebay might be a possibility.

                                Of course searching for dried bottle gourd on Amazon.com is a fairly fruitless endeavor. No pun intended.




                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Correus
                                Ave Lori!! The Overland Park store is 3 hours away...if I can t find a better source I ll check them out.  Thanks! From what I understand the NA Calabash is
                                Message 15 of 29 , May 25, 2013
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                                  Ave Lori!!

                                  The Overland Park store is 3 hours away...if I can't find a better source I'll check them out.  Thanks!

                                  From what I understand the NA Calabash is the one that traveled to the near and far east as well as to the Mediterranean.

                                  Another issue I have is fresh figs - those things are incredibly rare in my area!!!!  You'd think that in our day and age they would be easier to get.

                                  Correus




                                  ________________________________
                                  From: Lori Tishgart <ltishgart@...>
                                  To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 1:21 PM
                                  Subject: Re: [Apicius] Cucurbita



                                   
                                  I haven't tried it yet, but it sounds interesting.  I wonder if the recipe refers to the North African Calabash (Bottle Gourd).  I have seen the vine growing over houses all over Ethiopia.  There, the very young fruit can be eaten or the young leaves and shoots.  The fruit is mainly dried and used everywhere to carry butter and milk in.
                                  A quick search for "lauki" (the Indian version of Calabash) shows that they are sold fresh (via Amazon)  through an Indian store in Overland Park, KS!  Here is their link:
                                  http://www.amazon.com/Indian-Vegetable-Dudhi-Lauki-White/dp/B009IQ9P9Y/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1369505516&sr=8-4&keywords=lauki
                                  Let us know what happens!  Lori

                                  --- On Fri, 5/24/13, Correus <correus@...> wrote:

                                  From: Correus <correus@...>
                                  Subject: [Apicius] Cucurbita
                                  To: "Apicius@yahoogroups.com" <Apicius@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Date: Friday, May 24, 2013, 7:09 PM

                                   

                                  Ave!

                                  For those of you who live in the US - what do you use for Cucurbita?

                                  Vale ~

                                  Correus

                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Correus
                                  If you want to have some real fun...make a Roman dish or two and don t tell the people who eat it what it is untilafterward.  ;-) I think creating dishes
                                  Message 16 of 29 , May 25, 2013
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    If you want to have some real fun...make a Roman dish or two and don't tell the people who eat it what it is untilafterward.  ;-)

                                    I think creating dishes using Roman techniques and herb/spice combos is a lot of fun.  I'll find something in the grocery story and think to myself "if the Romans would have had this I KNOW they would have liked it....so I take it home and see how I can 'Romanize' it. 

                                    Correus




                                    ________________________________
                                    From: Ross <telamonian_teukros@...>
                                    To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 8:49 PM
                                    Subject: [Apicius] Re: Cucurbita



                                     


                                    --- In Apicius@yahoogroups.com, Correus <correus@...> wrote:
                                    > I'm wonder though if Cucurbita could be more of a generic term instead an exact item?  Example - we may have a recipe that says "take a pound of meat" and therefore you use what ever meat you want.  Could the use of Cucurbita have simply meant "use what ever type of edible vegetable gourd you want?

                                    I would tend to think you are right. I like to experiment and come up with my own Roman-ish recipes myself, running before I can walk no doubt, as there is still so much for me to learn about Roman taste, preferences and food in general.

                                    > This is part of what makes Ancient Roman cooking so fun!!!  It's part foodie, part mystery and part science.  

                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Vale ~
                                    > Correus




                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Correus
                                    Totally agree Anahita - but some of the Roman flavor combos go so well with Acorn squash.  I did see a few articles that suggested pattypan squash as well -
                                    Message 17 of 29 , May 25, 2013
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Totally agree Anahita - but some of the Roman flavor combos go so well with Acorn squash.  I did see a few articles that suggested pattypan squash as well - those are available in our area.  Typically the real small flatish ones are the ones offered but the bigger ones are there at times too.  We like those so I'll keep an eye out for them.

                                      Did you see the one article I posted about gourds in the Roman world where they looked at the physical remains?  It said "No unequivocal evidence was found to suggest the presence of Cucumis sativus (cucumber) in the Mediterranean area during this era. The cucumis of Columella and Pliny was not cucumber, as commonly translated, but Cucumis melo subsp. melo Flexuosus Group (snake melon or vegetable melon)."  http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2759226/

                                      BTW - I like the English ones as well!

                                      Correus 




                                      ________________________________
                                      From: "lilinah@..." <lilinah@...>
                                      To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 9:02 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [Apicius] Cucurbita



                                       
                                      Correus wrote:
                                      > When I looked for a substitute for the Chinese Bottle Gourd all the sites
                                      > suggested zucchini. 

                                      [SNIP]

                                      > I have used several different gourds/squash to make the various Cucurbita recipes
                                      > with Acorn squash and Zucchini being my favorite. I see no major issue with using
                                      > any gourd/squash you would like - however, if you are trying to be as accurate as
                                      > humanly possible I would suggest, as you and others have suggested, use the bottle
                                      > gourd, snake gourd, etc., IF you can ind them.

                                      Well, winter squashes like Acorn squash taste good, but they VERY FAR from Old World gourds in color, flavor, cooking time, etc., and to me that makes a great and significant difference - it's like substituting peaches for oranges. If you can find young Luffa gourds, they are a suitable substitute - yeah, Chinatown, probably - sorry it's so far from you.

                                      In my experience zucchini is much much more watery than young gourds; so first there is a texture difference, and second, the amount of liquid affects the cooking. Third there is flavor difference - the langenaria i've used have a light fresh flavor, and opo has a faint hint of cucumber, which zucchinis lack - note i detest the typical cucumber sold in stupor markets and prefer so-called "English" or "hot-house" cucumbers and Persian cucumbers, which are MUCH less watery (and burp-y) than standard cukes; plus the skins are not tough and the seeds are not so big and hard.

                                      Nonetheless, summer squashes are closer to langenaria than any winter squash - winter squashes tend to have yellow or orange flesh, much more natural sweetness, and a distinct flavor, besides being HARD and needing longer cooking.

                                      If i were going to use a New World-descended squash to sub for opo, i would go for pattypan squash, as being closer in texture and liquid content. These are round and not quite flat, with a scalloped edge, and color similar to opo. Here's a photo:
                                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pattypan_squash

                                      Anahita



                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Ross
                                      ... You can get fresh figs in New York, but you know what, GOOD fresh figs are also incredibly rare!!! I ve had fair fresh figs two or three times in my life,
                                      Message 18 of 29 , May 25, 2013
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        --- In Apicius@yahoogroups.com, Correus <correus@...> wrote:

                                        > Another issue I have is fresh figs - those things are incredibly rare in my area!!!! You'd think that in our day and age they would be easier to get.
                                        >

                                        You can get fresh figs in New York, but you know what, GOOD fresh figs are also incredibly rare!!! I've had fair fresh figs two or three times in my life, good fresh figs only once. The rest of the time, ehh.

                                        > I think creating dishes using Roman techniques and herb/spice combos is a lot of fun.  >

                                        I am mooting a "poor Roman's feast". Some recipes are not to be found in any classical source but at the same time they are incredibly obvious. For example, millet polenta:

                                        http://ancientfoods.wordpress.com/2013/03/04/most-ancient-romans-ate-like-animals/

                                        Terrible title IMO.

                                        And no millet polenta recipe is to be found in Apicius. Maybe because there was a stigma attached to millet? After all, only the poor people ate millet.

                                        And I know it is a slippery slope but I already have a lot of ideas (e.g. vine leaves stuffed with herbed garbanzo puree, kind of like a Roman patra). Just somebody stop me if I start to talk about sausages in rolls with mustard, and salted deep fried turnip chips :-)



                                        > > Vale ~
                                        > > Correus
                                        >
                                        >
                                      • anahita_al_shazhiyya
                                        ... That is the same as opo. The names just vary from one culture to another - and it s always good to know as many different names as possible. They are much
                                        Message 19 of 29 , May 26, 2013
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Brigit wrote:
                                          > Actually what you may be able to find is the Cucuzzi gourd. It is listed
                                          > as a variety of calabash on Wikipedia but is prepared more like zuccini or
                                          > other summer squash. I have seen them at my local farmer's auction and are
                                          > very popular with Italian families from the NYC area where they are called
                                          > cucuzza or googuzza. I haven't cooked one but the ladies come back often
                                          > to buy more.
                                          >
                                          > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calabash

                                          That is the same as opo. The names just vary from one culture to another - and it's always good to know as many different names as possible. They are much more pleasant, in my opinion, than zucchini. AND this is pretty much what was used in Europe before the discovery of the "New World" and the adoption of New World food plants.

                                          Take a look at the illustrations in various copies of the Tacuinum Sanitatis. This plant, sometimes called white flower gourd, is included and in the paintings looks just like what you and i see in our markets.
                                          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacuinum_Sanitatis

                                          Sadly, no gourd on that webpage, but if you type:
                                          tacuinum sanitatis gourd
                                          into Gooogle, you'll get a number of illustrations of this plant and the gourds.

                                          Correus, if you have access to a garden, you might be able to grow your own. I got some seeds about a decade ago, but my landlord at the time told me i could not plant them - for no particularly good reason.

                                          Anahita
                                        • Correus
                                          The only GOOD fresh figs I ve had was when we were in Egypt. I ordered some from Harry & David - they were decent but the price per fig (when adding in S&H)
                                          Message 20 of 29 , May 27, 2013
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            The only GOOD fresh figs I've had was when we were in Egypt.

                                            I ordered some from Harry & David - they were decent but the price per fig (when adding in S&H) were about $3 each and the one store in my area that might get them charge about $4 each.   I tried growing some that 'supposedly' would grow in Kansas - they were growing but a storm took them out.

                                            You will find recipes for items like "millet polenta" from sources like Pliney.

                                            pulteautem, non pane, vixisselongotempore Romanos manifestum. Pliny the Elder N.H. XVIII,83

                                            populumRomanumfarretantum e frumento CCC annisusumVerriustradit. Pliny the Elder N.H. XVIII, 62

                                            As you delve into Apicius you'll notice a lack of "common food for the common people" - but there are other sources out there - like Pliny the Elder.  The recipes in Apicius tend to be those for the rich and famous not masses.  Grant's book is a great source for common food as well as bread.  IIRC there are some porridge recipes in his book.
                                             

                                            As for "sausages in rolls with mustard" - been-there-done-that.   You will find a discussion about this in the archives that I started.  We know the Romans loved sausages and they were common at festivals, games, plays, etc.  I ran across a reference to stuffed buns and pastries and made the leap that this could include sausages in pastry or a sausage wrapped in bread. 


                                            So - don't worry about tossing ideas out here.  One of the things I like to do is "Romanize" modern food item!

                                            Vale - Correus



                                            ________________________________
                                            From: Ross <telamonian_teukros@...>
                                            To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
                                            Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2013 12:50 AM
                                            Subject: [Apicius] Re: Cucurbita



                                             


                                            --- In Apicius@yahoogroups.com, Correus <correus@...> wrote:

                                            > Another issue I have is fresh figs - those things are incredibly rare in my area!!!! You'd think that in our day and age they would be easier to get.
                                            >

                                            You can get fresh figs in New York, but you know what, GOOD fresh figs are also incredibly rare!!! I've had fair fresh figs two or three times in my life, good fresh figs only once. The rest of the time, ehh.

                                            > I think creating dishes using Roman techniques and herb/spice combos is a lot of fun.  >

                                            I am mooting a "poor Roman's feast". Some recipes are not to be found in any classical source but at the same time they are incredibly obvious. For example, millet polenta:

                                            http://ancientfoods.wordpress.com/2013/03/04/most-ancient-romans-ate-like-animals/

                                            Terrible title IMO.

                                            And no millet polenta recipe is to be found in Apicius. Maybe because there was a stigma attached to millet? After all, only the poor people ate millet.

                                            And I know it is a slippery slope but I already have a lot of ideas (e.g. vine leaves stuffed with herbed garbanzo puree, kind of like a Roman patra). Just somebody stop me if I start to talk about sausages in rolls with mustard, and salted deep fried turnip chips :-)

                                            > > Vale ~
                                            > > Correus
                                            >
                                            >




                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • Lori Tishgart
                                            Hello!You are so correct, while we all try to remain as authentic to the ingredients known to the Mediterranean at the time, we shouldn t forget that the
                                            Message 21 of 29 , May 27, 2013
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Hello!You are so correct, while we all try to remain as "authentic" to the ingredients known to the Mediterranean at the time, we shouldn't forget that the Roman Empire was huge and covered vastly different areas and their corresponding local food sources.  While many ingredients could be transported, Roman cooks had to apply their tastes to what food was available locally.  In Britain (Gaul, Germania etc.), so far north of Rome, they had to use local food.  It could be argued that there is no one single pure form of Ancient Roman cooking.
                                              What if their empire had extended to the New World?  How would the Romans approach and cook New World ingredients?
                                              There is a good book on more "everyday" military and civilian food in Roman Britain called:
                                              Food in Roman Britain by Joan P. Alcock
                                              Lori

                                              --- On Mon, 5/27/13, Correus <correus@...> wrote:

                                              From: Correus <correus@...>
                                              Subject: Re: [Apicius] Re: Cucurbita
                                              To: "Apicius@yahoogroups.com" <Apicius@yahoogroups.com>
                                              Date: Monday, May 27, 2013, 8:34 AM
















                                               









                                              The only GOOD fresh figs I've had was when we were in Egypt.



                                              I ordered some from Harry & David - they were decent but the price per fig (when adding in S&H) were about $3 each and the one store in my area that might get them charge about $4 each.   I tried growing some that 'supposedly' would grow in Kansas - they were growing but a storm took them out.



                                              You will find recipes for items like "millet polenta" from sources like Pliney.



                                              pulteautem, non pane, vixisselongotempore Romanos manifestum. Pliny the Elder N.H. XVIII,83



                                              populumRomanumfarretantum e frumento CCC annisusumVerriustradit. Pliny the Elder N.H. XVIII, 62



                                              As you delve into Apicius you'll notice a lack of "common food for the common people" - but there are other sources out there - like Pliny the Elder.  The recipes in Apicius tend to be those for the rich and famous not masses.  Grant's book is a great source for common food as well as bread.  IIRC there are some porridge recipes in his book.

                                               



                                              As for "sausages in rolls with mustard" - been-there-done-that.   You will find a discussion about this in the archives that I started.  We know the Romans loved sausages and they were common at festivals, games, plays, etc.  I ran across a reference to stuffed buns and pastries and made the leap that this could include sausages in pastry or a sausage wrapped in bread. 



                                              So - don't worry about tossing ideas out here.  One of the things I like to do is "Romanize" modern food item!



                                              Vale - Correus



                                              ________________________________

                                              From: Ross <telamonian_teukros@...>

                                              To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com

                                              Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2013 12:50 AM

                                              Subject: [Apicius] Re: Cucurbita





                                               



                                              --- In Apicius@yahoogroups.com, Correus <correus@...> wrote:

                                              r>
                                              > Another issue I have is fresh figs - those things are incredibly rare in my area!!!! You'd think that in our day and age they would be easier to get.

                                              >



                                              You can get fresh figs in New York, but you know what, GOOD fresh figs are also incredibly rare!!! I've had fair fresh figs two or three times in my life, good fresh figs only once. The rest of the time, ehh.



                                              > I think creating dishes using Roman techniques and herb/spice combos is a lot of fun.  >



                                              I am mooting a "poor Roman's feast". Some recipes are not to be found in any classical source but at the same time they are incredibly obvious. For example, millet polenta:



                                              http://ancientfoods.wordpress.com/2013/03/04/most-ancient-romans-ate-like-animals/



                                              Terrible title IMO.



                                              And no millet polenta recipe is to be found in Apicius. Maybe because there was a stigma attached to millet? After all, only the poor people ate millet.



                                              And I know it is a slippery slope but I already have a lot of ideas (e.g. vine leaves stuffed with herbed garbanzo puree, kind of like a Roman patra). Just somebody stop me if I start to talk about sausages in rolls with mustard, and salted deep fried turnip chips :-)



                                              > > Vale ~

                                              > > Correus

                                              >

                                              >



                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



























                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • Correus
                                              Thanks!   I ll see if I can find this one - it looks familiar from one of the specialty shops. Correus ________________________________ From: Pamela Herbert
                                              Message 22 of 29 , May 27, 2013
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                Thanks!   I'll see if I can find this one - it looks familiar from one of the specialty shops.

                                                Correus




                                                ________________________________
                                                From: Pamela Herbert <ldybrigitsca@...>
                                                To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
                                                Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 9:50 PM
                                                Subject: Re: [Apicius] Cucurbita


                                                Actually what you may be able to find is the Cucuzzi gourd.  It is listed
                                                as a variety of calabash on Wikipedia but is prepared more like zuccini or
                                                other summer squash.  I have seen them at my local farmer's auction and are
                                                very popular with Italian families from the NYC area where they are called
                                                cucuzza or googuzza.    I haven't cooked one but the ladies come back often
                                                to buy more.

                                                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calabash

                                                Something else from these plants is tenerumi.  These are the tender shoots
                                                of the plant and are used in soups in Sicilian cooking.

                                                One thing about them is they must be picked and cooked while young. They
                                                can grow over two feet long and up to six inches in diameter, the larger
                                                they are the tougher the skin becomes and the seeds develop.  They need to
                                                be peeled and cored if harvested too late.    Kinda like a giant zuccini
                                                but the seeds are very different.

                                                Hope this helps,

                                                Brigit




                                                On Sat, May 25, 2013 at 10:02 PM, <lilinah@...> wrote:

                                                > **
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Correus wrote:
                                                > > When I looked for a substitute for the Chinese Bottle Gourd all the
                                                > sites
                                                > > suggested zucchini.
                                                >
                                                > [SNIP]
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > > I have used several different gourds/squash to make the various
                                                > Cucurbita recipes
                                                > > with Acorn squash and Zucchini being my favorite. I see no major issue
                                                > with using
                                                > > any gourd/squash you would like - however, if you are trying to be as
                                                > accurate as
                                                > > humanly possible I would suggest, as you and others have suggested, use
                                                > the bottle
                                                > > gourd, snake gourd, etc., IF you can ind them.
                                                >
                                                > Well, winter squashes like Acorn squash taste good, but they VERY FAR from
                                                > Old World gourds in color, flavor, cooking time, etc., and to me that makes
                                                > a great and significant difference - it's like substituting peaches for
                                                > oranges. If you can find young Luffa gourds, they are a suitable substitute
                                                > - yeah, Chinatown, probably - sorry it's so far from you.
                                                >
                                                > In my experience zucchini is much much more watery than young gourds; so
                                                > first there is a texture difference, and second, the amount of liquid
                                                > affects the cooking. Third there is flavor difference - the langenariai've
                                                > used have a light fresh flavor, and opo has a faint hint of cucumber, which
                                                > zucchinis lack - note i detest the typical cucumber sold in stupor markets
                                                > and prefer so-called "English" or "hot-house" cucumbers and Persian
                                                > cucumbers, which are MUCH less watery (and burp-y) than standard cukes;
                                                > plus the skins are not tough and the seeds are not so big and hard.
                                                >
                                                > Nonetheless, summer squashes are closer to langenaria than any winter
                                                > squash - winter squashes tend to have yellow or orange flesh, much more
                                                > natural sweetness, and a distinct flavor, besides being HARD and needing
                                                > longer cooking.
                                                >
                                                > If i were going to use a New World-descended squash to sub for opo, i
                                                > would go for pattypan squash, as being closer in texture and liquid
                                                > content. These are round and not quite flat, with a scalloped edge, and
                                                > color similar to opo. Here's a photo:
                                                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pattypan_squash
                                                >
                                                > Anahita
                                                >

                                                >



                                                --
                                                “To laugh often and much; to win the respect of intelligent people and the
                                                affection of children...to leave the world a better place...to know even
                                                one life has breathed easier because you have lived. This is to have
                                                succeeded.” Ralph Waldo Emerson

                                                The greatest mistake you can make in life is to be continually fearing you
                                                will make one.
                                                    Elbert Hubbard (1856 - 1915)


                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              • Correus
                                                Thanks Anahita!!! I will be adding this one on my list to look for as well. Correus ________________________________ From: lilinah@earthlink.net
                                                Message 23 of 29 , May 27, 2013
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  Thanks Anahita!!!

                                                  I will be adding this one on my list to look for as well.

                                                  Correus




                                                  ________________________________
                                                  From: "lilinah@..." <lilinah@...>
                                                  To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2013 4:47 PM
                                                  Subject: Re: [Apicius] Cucurbita



                                                   
                                                  Brigit wrote:
                                                  > Actually what you may be able to find is the Cucuzzi gourd. It is listed
                                                  > as a variety of calabash on Wikipedia but is prepared more like zuccini or
                                                  > other summer squash. I have seen them at my local farmer's auction and are
                                                  > very popular with Italian families from the NYC area where they are called
                                                  > cucuzza or googuzza. I haven't cooked one but the ladies come back often
                                                  > to buy more.
                                                  >
                                                  > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calabash

                                                  That is the same as opo. The names just vary from one culture to another - and it's always good to know as many different names as possible. They are much more pleasant, in my opinion, than zucchini. AND this is pretty much what was used in Europe before the discovery of the "New World" and the adoption of New World food plants.

                                                  Take a look at the illustrations in various copies of the Tacuinum Sanitatis. This plant, sometimes called white flower gourd, is included and in the paintings looks just like what you and i see in our markets.
                                                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacuinum_Sanitatis

                                                  Sadly, no gourd on that webpage, but if you type:
                                                  tacuinum sanitatis gourd
                                                  into Gooogle, you'll get a number of illustrations of this plant and the gourds.

                                                  Correus, if you have access to a garden, you might be able to grow your own. I got some seeds about a decade ago, but my landlord at the time told me i could not plant them - for no particularly good reason.

                                                  Anahita



                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                • Correus
                                                  Thanks Lori!!!   I will be adding that book to my library. I think you are correct in what you ve said.  I actually ran across a couple articles that state
                                                  Message 24 of 29 , May 27, 2013
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    Thanks Lori!!!   I will be adding that book to my library.

                                                    I think you are correct in what you've said.  I actually ran across a couple articles that state there is evidence that peoples from the New World to make it to the Old World in the Republican and Imperial Roman age and vise verse.  It also mentioned seeds reaching those areas as well due to ocean currents.

                                                    Correus




                                                    ________________________________
                                                    From: Lori Tishgart <ltishgart@...>
                                                    To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
                                                    Sent: Monday, May 27, 2013 1:15 PM
                                                    Subject: Re: [Apicius] Re: Cucurbita



                                                     
                                                    Hello!You are so correct, while we all try to remain as "authentic" to the ingredients known to the Mediterranean at the time, we shouldn't forget that the Roman Empire was huge and covered vastly different areas and their corresponding local food sources.  While many ingredients could be transported, Roman cooks had to apply their tastes to what food was available locally.  In Britain (Gaul, Germania etc.), so far north of Rome, they had to use local food.  It could be argued that there is no one single pure form of Ancient Roman cooking.
                                                    What if their empire had extended to the New World?  How would the Romans approach and cook New World ingredients?
                                                    There is a good book on more "everyday" military and civilian food in Roman Britain called:
                                                    Food in Roman Britain by Joan P. Alcock
                                                    Lori

                                                    --- On Mon, 5/27/13, Correus <correus@...> wrote:

                                                    From: Correus <correus@...>
                                                    Subject: Re: [Apicius] Re: Cucurbita
                                                    To: "Apicius@yahoogroups.com" <Apicius@yahoogroups.com>
                                                    Date: Monday, May 27, 2013, 8:34 AM

                                                     

                                                    The only GOOD fresh figs I've had was when we were in Egypt.

                                                    I ordered some from Harry & David - they were decent but the price per fig (when adding in S&H) were about $3 each and the one store in my area that might get them charge about $4 each.   I tried growing some that 'supposedly' would grow in Kansas - they were growing but a storm took them out.

                                                    You will find recipes for items like "millet polenta" from sources like Pliney.

                                                    pulteautem, non pane, vixisselongotempore Romanos manifestum. Pliny the Elder N.H. XVIII,83

                                                    populumRomanumfarretantum e frumento CCC annisusumVerriustradit. Pliny the Elder N.H. XVIII, 62

                                                    As you delve into Apicius you'll notice a lack of "common food for the common people" - but there are other sources out there - like Pliny the Elder.  The recipes in Apicius tend to be those for the rich and famous not masses.  Grant's book is a great source for common food as well as bread.  IIRC there are some porridge recipes in his book.

                                                     

                                                    As for "sausages in rolls with mustard" - been-there-done-that.   You will find a discussion about this in the archives that I started.  We know the Romans loved sausages and they were common at festivals, games, plays, etc.  I ran across a reference to stuffed buns and pastries and made the leap that this could include sausages in pastry or a sausage wrapped in bread. 

                                                    So - don't worry about tossing ideas out here.  One of the things I like to do is "Romanize" modern food item!

                                                    Vale - Correus

                                                    ________________________________

                                                    From: Ross <telamonian_teukros@...>

                                                    To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com

                                                    Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2013 12:50 AM

                                                    Subject: [Apicius] Re: Cucurbita

                                                     

                                                    --- In Apicius@yahoogroups.com, Correus <correus@...> wrote:

                                                    r>
                                                    > Another issue I have is fresh figs - those things are incredibly rare in my area!!!! You'd think that in our day and age they would be easier to get.

                                                    >

                                                    You can get fresh figs in New York, but you know what, GOOD fresh figs are also incredibly rare!!! I've had fair fresh figs two or three times in my life, good fresh figs only once. The rest of the time, ehh.

                                                    > I think creating dishes using Roman techniques and herb/spice combos is a lot of fun.  >

                                                    I am mooting a "poor Roman's feast". Some recipes are not to be found in any classical source but at the same time they are incredibly obvious. For example, millet polenta:

                                                    http://ancientfoods.wordpress.com/2013/03/04/most-ancient-romans-ate-like-animals/

                                                    Terrible title IMO.

                                                    And no millet polenta recipe is to be found in Apicius. Maybe because there was a stigma attached to millet? After all, only the poor people ate millet.

                                                    And I know it is a slippery slope but I already have a lot of ideas (e.g. vine leaves stuffed with herbed garbanzo puree, kind of like a Roman patra). Just somebody stop me if I start to talk about sausages in rolls with mustard, and salted deep fried turnip chips :-)

                                                    > > Vale ~

                                                    > > Correus

                                                    >

                                                    >

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                                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  • Ross
                                                    Thank s for the tip; I ordered this book last night. @ Correus: I have Grant, but oddly I wasn t that impressed with it. I ll definitely give it a second look,
                                                    Message 25 of 29 , May 28, 2013
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                      Thank's for the tip; I ordered this book last night.

                                                      @ Correus: I have Grant, but oddly I wasn't that impressed with it. I'll definitely give it a second look, especially for the non-Apicius recipes.

                                                      --- In Apicius@yahoogroups.com, Lori Tishgart <ltishgart@...> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > There is a good book on more "everyday" military and civilian food in Roman Britain called:
                                                      > Food in Roman Britain by Joan P. Alcock
                                                      > Lori
                                                    • Lucia Clark
                                                      Well, here in Massachusetts I have a small fig bush on the patio with a dozen little figs on it. I cover it with mesh to protect it from the chipmunks. In the
                                                      Message 26 of 29 , May 28, 2013
                                                      • 0 Attachment
                                                        Well, here in Massachusetts I have a small fig bush on the patio with a
                                                        dozen little figs on it. I cover it with mesh to protect it from the
                                                        chipmunks. In the fall I bring it inside in the solarium, but any cool room
                                                        would do. Re sausages: In England we got used to “meat pasties.” Not a huge
                                                        leap from panem depsticium with stuff rolled in it

                                                        Valete



                                                        _____

                                                        From: Apicius@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Apicius@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                                                        Correus
                                                        Sent: Monday, May 27, 2013 11:35 AM
                                                        To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
                                                        Subject: Re: [Apicius] Re: Cucurbita





                                                        The only GOOD fresh figs I've had was when we were in Egypt.

                                                        I ordered some from Harry & David - they were decent but the price per fig
                                                        (when adding in S&H) were about $3 each and the one store in my area that
                                                        might get them charge about $4 each. I tried growing some that
                                                        'supposedly' would grow in Kansas - they were growing but a storm took them
                                                        out.

                                                        You will find recipes for items like "millet polenta" from sources like
                                                        Pliney.

                                                        pulteautem, non pane, vixisselongotempore Romanos manifestum. Pliny the
                                                        Elder N.H. XVIII,83

                                                        populumRomanumfarretantum e frumento CCC annisusumVerriustradit. Pliny the
                                                        Elder N.H. XVIII, 62

                                                        As you delve into Apicius you'll notice a lack of "common food for the
                                                        common people" - but there are other sources out there - like Pliny the
                                                        Elder. The recipes in Apicius tend to be those for the rich and famous not
                                                        masses. Grant's book is a great source for common food as well as bread.
                                                        IIRC there are some porridge recipes in his book.


                                                        As for "sausages in rolls with mustard" - been-there-done-that. You will
                                                        find a discussion about this in the archives that I started. We know the
                                                        Romans loved sausages and they were common at festivals, games, plays, etc.
                                                        I ran across a reference to stuffed buns and pastries and made the leap that
                                                        this could include sausages in pastry or a sausage wrapped in bread.

                                                        So - don't worry about tossing ideas out here. One of the things I like to
                                                        do is "Romanize" modern food item!

                                                        Vale - Correus

                                                        ________________________________
                                                        From: Ross <telamonian_teukros@...
                                                        <mailto:telamonian_teukros%40yahoo.com> >
                                                        To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Apicius%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                        Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2013 12:50 AM
                                                        Subject: [Apicius] Re: Cucurbita




                                                        --- In Apicius@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Apicius%40yahoogroups.com> , Correus
                                                        <correus@...> wrote:

                                                        > Another issue I have is fresh figs - those things are incredibly rare in
                                                        my area!!!! You'd think that in our day and age they would be easier to
                                                        get.
                                                        >

                                                        You can get fresh figs in New York, but you know what, GOOD fresh figs are
                                                        also incredibly rare!!! I've had fair fresh figs two or three times in my
                                                        life, good fresh figs only once. The rest of the time, ehh.

                                                        > I think creating dishes using Roman techniques and herb/spice combos is a
                                                        lot of fun. >

                                                        I am mooting a "poor Roman's feast". Some recipes are not to be found in any
                                                        classical source but at the same time they are incredibly obvious. For
                                                        example, millet polenta:

                                                        http://ancientfoods.wordpress.com/2013/03/04/most-ancient-romans-ate-like-an
                                                        imals/

                                                        Terrible title IMO.

                                                        And no millet polenta recipe is to be found in Apicius. Maybe because there
                                                        was a stigma attached to millet? After all, only the poor people ate millet.

                                                        And I know it is a slippery slope but I already have a lot of ideas (e.g.
                                                        vine leaves stuffed with herbed garbanzo puree, kind of like a Roman patra).
                                                        Just somebody stop me if I start to talk about sausages in rolls with
                                                        mustard, and salted deep fried turnip chips :-)

                                                        > > Vale ~
                                                        > > Correus
                                                        >
                                                        >

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