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Recent Cook Out

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  • Donna
    Last week I went to a five day long SCA event. I camped with a group of cooks and we cooked over fire the whole time. I made a few dishes from Apicius ...
    Message 1 of 25 , Jul 13, 2012
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      Last week I went to a five day long SCA event. I camped with a group of cooks and we cooked over fire the whole time. I made a few dishes from Apicius ...

      Apicius (Grainger)
      Book 4
      4.1.1
      Sala cattabia. Pepper, mint, celery seed, dried pennyroyal, cheese, pine nuts, honey, vinegar, garum, yolks of eggs, fresh water. Squeeze dry bread soaked in some posca (dilute sour wine), cow's cheese and cucumer in a small pot, interlayered with pine nuts. Put in finely chopped capers with little chicken livers. Pour the sauce over it. Stand it in cold water and set it forth.

      Apicius (Grainger)
      Book 4
      4.2.24
      Patina of fish. Scale any fish you like, clean and put to one side. Chop dried Ascalonian onions or another type of onion, into a dish and put the fish on top. Add garum and oil, bring it to heat; when it is cooked, place cooked salt fish in the middle; vinegar should be added; sprinkle with pepper and a circle of savory.

      Apicius (Grainger)
      Book 4
      4.5.4
      Hors-d'oeuvre of apricots; take firm, early or undersized fruits, wash them, remove the stone and put them (to cook) in cold water and arrange them in a dish. Pound pepper, dried mint; pour garum; add honey; passum, wine and vinegar; pour over the apricots in the dish, add a little oil and let it come to heat over a gentle fir. When it is simmering, thicken it with starch, sprinkle with pepper and serve.

      Apicius (Grainger)
      Book 9
      9.6 Sauce for Oysters
      Pepper, loveage, egg yolk, vinegar, garum, oil and wine. You can also add honey if you like.

      All were very yummy.

      Donna
    • sallygrain@aol.com
      good to know the dishes worked Can i just point out - as i am a bit of a stickler for such things - that the recipes in Apicius use the word liquamen rather
      Message 2 of 25 , Jul 14, 2012
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        good to know the dishes worked
        Can i just point out - as i am a bit of a stickler for such things - that the recipes in Apicius use the word liquamen rather than garum because they represent two different sauces - one whole-fish sauce, one a blood viscera fish sauce and I don't want to see an inaccurate ref that puports to be from my book where you have changed liquamen into garum in the belief that they are synonymous - they were not.

        thanks so much
        sally

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Donna <donnaegreen@...>
        To: Apicius <Apicius@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 23:53
        Subject: [Apicius] Recent Cook Out




        Last week I went to a five day long SCA event. I camped with a group of cooks and we cooked over fire the whole time. I made a few dishes from Apicius ...

        Apicius (Grainger)
        Book 4
        4.1.1
        Sala cattabia. Pepper, mint, celery seed, dried pennyroyal, cheese, pine nuts, honey, vinegar, garum, yolks of eggs, fresh water. Squeeze dry bread soaked in some posca (dilute sour wine), cow's cheese and cucumer in a small pot, interlayered with pine nuts. Put in finely chopped capers with little chicken livers. Pour the sauce over it. Stand it in cold water and set it forth.

        Apicius (Grainger)
        Book 4
        4.2.24
        Patina of fish. Scale any fish you like, clean and put to one side. Chop dried Ascalonian onions or another type of onion, into a dish and put the fish on top. Add garum and oil, bring it to heat; when it is cooked, place cooked salt fish in the middle; vinegar should be added; sprinkle with pepper and a circle of savory.

        Apicius (Grainger)
        Book 4
        4.5.4
        Hors-d'oeuvre of apricots; take firm, early or undersized fruits, wash them, remove the stone and put them (to cook) in cold water and arrange them in a dish. Pound pepper, dried mint; pour garum; add honey; passum, wine and vinegar; pour over the apricots in the dish, add a little oil and let it come to heat over a gentle fir. When it is simmering, thicken it with starch, sprinkle with pepper and serve.

        Apicius (Grainger)
        Book 9
        9.6 Sauce for Oysters
        Pepper, loveage, egg yolk, vinegar, garum, oil and wine. You can also add honey if you like.

        All were very yummy.

        Donna







        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • RM
        I am sorry, but are you really sure that there is any evidence for a difference between garum and the Apician “liquamen”? “liquamen” is a word used
        Message 3 of 25 , Jul 14, 2012
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          I am sorry, but are you really sure that there is any evidence for a difference between garum and the Apician “liquamen”? “liquamen” is a word used only by Apicius instead of the more common word “garum”. A good example is the following recipe:
          “Hydrogarata isicia sic facies: teres piper, ligusticum, pyrethrum minimum, suffundes liquamen. temperas aquam cisterninam, dum inducet, exinanies in caccabo, et tum isicia ad vaporem ignis pones, ut caleat, et sic sorbendum inferes.”
          This means that to make “hydrogarum” Apicius used “liquamen” et “aqua cisternina”. “liquamen” for Apicius is just a terminus technicus. The word “liquamen” has been used in antiquity just by Columella (who used it in a different context) and once by Flavius Vopiscus Syracusius on Aurelius where it meant “garum”. The hypothesis of a difference between garum and liquamen sounds interesting but I think Apicius just introduced the word “liquamen” as a t.t. in order to substitute the common word “garum”.

          Best regards

          RM


          From: sallygrain@...
          Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2012 1:49 PM
          To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [Apicius] Recent Cook Out



          good to know the dishes worked
          Can i just point out - as i am a bit of a stickler for such things - that the recipes in Apicius use the word liquamen rather than garum because they represent two different sauces - one whole-fish sauce, one a blood viscera fish sauce and I don't want to see an inaccurate ref that puports to be from my book where you have changed liquamen into garum in the belief that they are synonymous - they were not.

          thanks so much
          sally




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • sallygrain@aol.com
          happy to get to grips with this again as I do think there is sufficient evidence but you have caught me on the way out the door.. I will respond on sunday
          Message 4 of 25 , Jul 14, 2012
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            happy to get to grips with this again as I do think there is sufficient evidence but you have caught me on the way out the door.. I will respond on sunday

            sally



            -----Original Message-----
            From: RM <apicius@...>
            To: Apicius <Apicius@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Sat, 14 Jul 2012 14:05
            Subject: [Apicius] Garum and Liquamen (again)




            I am sorry, but are you really sure that there is any evidence for a difference between garum and the Apician “liquamen”? “liquamen” is a word used only by Apicius instead of the more common word “garum”. A good example is the following recipe:
            “Hydrogarata isicia sic facies: teres piper, ligusticum, pyrethrum minimum, suffundes liquamen. temperas aquam cisterninam, dum inducet, exinanies in caccabo, et tum isicia ad vaporem ignis pones, ut caleat, et sic sorbendum inferes.”
            This means that to make “hydrogarum” Apicius used “liquamen” et “aqua cisternina”. “liquamen” for Apicius is just a terminus technicus. The word “liquamen” has been used in antiquity just by Columella (who used it in a different context) and once by Flavius Vopiscus Syracusius on Aurelius where it meant “garum”. The hypothesis of a difference between garum and liquamen sounds interesting but I think Apicius just introduced the word “liquamen” as a t.t. in order to substitute the common word “garum”.

            Best regards

            RM

            From: sallygrain@...
            Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2012 1:49 PM
            To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [Apicius] Recent Cook Out

            good to know the dishes worked
            Can i just point out - as i am a bit of a stickler for such things - that the recipes in Apicius use the word liquamen rather than garum because they represent two different sauces - one whole-fish sauce, one a blood viscera fish sauce and I don't want to see an inaccurate ref that puports to be from my book where you have changed liquamen into garum in the belief that they are synonymous - they were not.

            thanks so much
            sally

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • sallygrain@aol.com
            OK garum liquamen and the differences: i recently presented a paper at the British School at Rome to archaeologist of the fish trade in the Med. and
            Message 5 of 25 , Jul 15, 2012
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              OK

              garum liquamen and the differences: i recently presented a paper at the British School at Rome to archaeologist of the fish trade in the Med. and therefore what follows is a pressi of what i said to them

              To start with you talk about Apicius as if he was the sole author and originator of the text when it is clear from our textual analysis that the recipe collection has multiple authors and they are slave cooks rather than a single gourmet. In terms of food at this level there were consumers and producers and it is the producers - the cooks - who we must trust to use the terminology correctly. You cannot argue that Apicius wrote this or that way, logically all the slave cooks wrote liquamen rather than garum for a reason. Equally you cannot place Apicius as a text in the late Empire reflecting a late usage for fish sauce. The terms used in it must reflect the way in which cooks expressed themselves throughout the classical period. The whole argument and justification for Vulgar Latin/Late Latin is based on elite usage. You say garum was the more commonplace term but in fact it is the other way round: Caelius Aurelianus says that the vulgar latin term in every day usage is liquamen. You also state that liquamen only occurs in Apicius but this is not the case. It is found in the Greek agricultural manual The Geoponica - you do all know that Andrew Dalby has recently published a new translation of this dont you ? - where it is a direct translation of the Greek garon but wait ...garon does not necessarily mean garum. It is also found frequently along with garum in the same veterinary recipe collections, particularly Vegetius and Pelagonius.
              (Pelagonius: liquamen: 9; 11.2; 13;98; 455; 457, garum: 428;13. Vegetius liquamen: 1.10.1; 1.17.10, 16; 2.91.2; 2.108.2; 2.132.4; 4.6.1, garum: 2.28.8; 3.28.10). In Galen it is also clear that two sauces were used: he refers simply to garon many times but only once or twice to garon melan. We have two names and two sauces so there shouldn't have been a problem!

              (Pelagonius: liquamen: 9; 11.2; 13;98; 455; 457, garum: 428;13. Vegetius liquamen: 1.10.1; 1.17.10, 16; 2.91.2; 2.108.2; 2.132.4; 4.6.1, garum: 2.28.8; 3.28.10). In Galen it is also clear that two sauces were used: he refers simply to garon many times but only once or twice to garon melan. We have two names and two sauces so there shouldn't have been a problem!

              Apicius - this is the title not the author - is an organic collection of recipes originally compiled, in it's earliest form, in Greek and we consider this to be in the late 1st century AD and possibly even earlier. We see no evidence of a formal publication date, only a finish date which is clearly 5/6th century. The chapter heading are in Greek and there are numerous terms that are not translated but transliterated i.e the Greek endings are converted into Latin endings so oenogaron: the Greek sauce made from the original Greek fish sauce and wine becomes oenogarum. Bare in mind the whole idea of fish sauce was originally Greek

              So if the cooks dont use garum qua garum one has to ask why? At this point I am pasting from the delivered paper

              What we first must do is acknowledge the presence of a blood and viscera sauce in the Ancient Mediterranean cuisine that we think of as Roman food. This sauce was a strong black and bloody condiment called in Greek garon melan or haimation that I believe was almost certainly handled by the consumer at table. This sauce was completely separate to the primary product in terms of archaeology (the amphora and fish bones) which was a cooking sauce made from whole-fish with extra viscera which provided enzymes which aided the liquefaction of the muscle tissue.
              The development and use of the primary product: a fish sauce made with whole fish, initially began in Greece and was a simple sauce made of very small fish (otherwise of no value) and salt used in everyday cooking. It is clear from references in 3rd century new comedy in Athens that this sauce was used with oil and vinegar or wine as a dressing for vegetables and pulses and was not considered particularly elite. My colleague Andrew Dalby has stated it to be a commonplace ingredient and it is noteworthy that Archestratus, the 2nd century Greek gourmet poet writing from Sicily about the best fish does not mention fish sauce at all. Later Galen in the 2nd Century AD is also suggesting the use of garos in dressing of oil and vinegar to accompany simple vegetables. The Apicius recipes collection includes a whole section on vegetables which are also largely accompanied by oil, wine and fish sauce. These simple blended sauces are basically like vinaigrette and are throughout the Apicius recipe text in various forms. The most common was an oenogarum a transliterated term from the Greek. In fact when oenogarum is translated into Latin - it is found in Ps. Gargilius Martialis recipe - it appears as Confectio liquaminis. So there rearly is no garum in Apicius. This means of cause that there is no blood and viscera garum, because as a table sauce it was used on food rather than in the cooking and was also used to make elite oenogarum that may have been blended at table by the gourmet or slaves attendants.





              This simple Greek whole fish sauce almost certainly came to Rome as garon transliterated into garum but was still this simple liquefied fish sauce. As fish sauce became popular in Rome the elite were concerned with differentiating their foods from everybody else’s and I believe they may have instigated new developments in fish sauce types, one of which was the blood and viscera sauce and one was the use of much larger fish that did have a market value such as mackerel and larger clupeidae and sparidae which could have been used as salted fish.
              I believe the confusion over the terminology occurred when the elite retained the term garum - the transliterated and now fashionable Greek term to designate their new table sauce made from blood and viscera and the manufacturer, trader , merchant and cook had to coin a new term in Latin to designate the original and commonplace fish sauce, called garon made from whole fish. This was liquamen, the derivation of which is ‘to liquefy so it is aptly titled.
              We have mentioned the absence of garum from Apicius but we must also mention the absence of the separate Latin blood garum from Diocletians price edict in 301 AD . Here liquamen is equivalent to garos not garum just as we find in the Geoponica. These two absences are of cause the primary reason for the 'single sauce hypothesis' advovated by Curtis. If however you see these absences as evidence that the blood garum was no longer sufficiently popular in the early 4th century AD to warrant its own price on the edict or a mention in the recipes, then the later dominance of liquamen is explained. In fact (a guess) I believe the elite blood viscera garum had a relatively small market in comparison to liquamen and was made to appear more important because of the unusually close view we get of the elite at table in the early empire through satire. It was still made in the late empire as we know Ausonius acquired a jar in the mid 4th century but it seems it was a special delivery and therefore probably not readily available in southern France, and he is also very confused as to what to call it!
              The original Greek sauce – garos equivalent to liquamen - remained the primary product. We can I think come to see how it was that later sources began to say that garum was liquamen. Caelius Aurelianus says that the vulgar latin term in every day usage is liquamen – I don’t think he means just the poor here - and the elite prefer garum but in principle it’s the same product. if Pliny can fail to see the two sauces when it was popular, when the blood sauce has become rare it would seem quite logical to revert to the earlier usage and make the assumption that everyone has - ancient and modern - that the Greek and Latin meant the same thing'.
              note: I have not pasted the bit from Pliny but he is the cause of most of the confusion as he conflates both sauces into one. His elite expensive garum is made from viscera and most interpretations of his definition of fish sauce presupposed that he also meant to say small fish as he goes on to suggest that allec was the residue of garum but the blood viscera sauce has no bones or fish paste to make an allec. Only the primary fish sauce generates a fish paste.
              Hope this helps. It is a theory i will own but a thoroughly rational and logical one according to the archaeologists (and Robert Curtis who has been an adviser), I spoke to and they will be moving forward in analysing amphorae shapes and fish bone residues with the idea that there were two basic types of sauce in the 1st century AD when all the archaeology is most prolific.

              Sally Grainger


              -----Original Message-----
              From: RM <apicius@...>
              To: Apicius <Apicius@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Sat, 14 Jul 2012 14:05
              Subject: [Apicius] Garum and Liquamen (again)




              I am sorry, but are you really sure that there is any evidence for a difference between garum and the Apician “liquamen”? “liquamen” is a word used only by Apicius instead of the more common word “garum”. A good example is the following recipe:
              “Hydrogarata isicia sic facies: teres piper, ligusticum, pyrethrum minimum, suffundes liquamen. temperas aquam cisterninam, dum inducet, exinanies in caccabo, et tum isicia ad vaporem ignis pones, ut caleat, et sic sorbendum inferes.”
              This means that to make “hydrogarum” Apicius used “liquamen” et “aqua cisternina”. “liquamen” for Apicius is just a terminus technicus. The word “liquamen” has been used in antiquity just by Columella (who used it in a different context) and once by Flavius Vopiscus Syracusius on Aurelius where it meant “garum”. The hypothesis of a difference between garum and liquamen sounds interesting but I think Apicius just introduced the word “liquamen” as a t.t. in order to substitute the common word “garum”.

              Best regards

              RM

              From: sallygrain@...
              Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2012 1:49 PM
              To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [Apicius] Recent Cook Out

              good to know the dishes worked
              Can i just point out - as i am a bit of a stickler for such things - that the recipes in Apicius use the word liquamen rather than garum because they represent two different sauces - one whole-fish sauce, one a blood viscera fish sauce and I don't want to see an inaccurate ref that puports to be from my book where you have changed liquamen into garum in the belief that they are synonymous - they were not.

              thanks so much
              sally

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • RM
              Well, we don’t know exactly when the Apicius collection has been compiled but it is quite sure that has been compiled from a base of earlier recipes from
              Message 6 of 25 , Jul 15, 2012
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                Well, we don’t know exactly when the Apicius collection has been compiled but it is quite sure that has been compiled from a base of earlier recipes from which about a third is to be considered to be from an original cookbook probabely written by the same Apicius who has been mentioned in Plinius’ Naturalis Historia (see Brandt: “Untersuchungen zum römischen Kochbuch” in Philologus Suppl. XIX, 3). From the Historia Augusta we learn that Aelius Verus who died in 138 took three books into his bed: Amores by Ovid, Apicius and Martial. We may believe this or not. If we believe it there should have been an edition of Apicius at those times. I didn’t say that Apicius was the only one who ever mentioned “liquamen” – I said he was the only one who used it in this sense in antiquity, Vegetius and Pelagonius lived in very late antiquity, but you wouldn’t find the term before Columella where it signified just a liquid. The question is therefore if your “liquamen”, that may differ from “garum”, was invented after the 1st or 2nd century. There is no doubt that there were many different types and qualities of garum (“... , creveruntque genera ad infinitum, ...” Plin. NH 31, 95). Plinius tells us that Apicius used the so called “garum sociorum” which is just a type of garum. In his Naturalis Historia Plinius mentioned “garum” sometimes – liquamen never. I personally believe that Plinius did know very well what he was writing about in book 31 where he describes the production of “garum” – there he calls it a “liquor” (not “liquamen” of course). What you can find in the Diocletian’s Price Edict are two terms (3.6): “garou geúmatos prwteíou” in Greek, “liquaminis primi” in Latin – there the word “liquamen” appears as a simple translation of “garon” (why do you think it should be “garos”?). The Geoponika, of course, has been compiled 800 years later, using authors of the late antiquity but it is very interesting that in the Geoponika the Latin word “liquamen” appears twice as “tò kaloúmenon likouamen” (=“the so called liquamen”) in the chapter "Garwn piohsis" (20, 46, 1+2).

                Well, I better stop here because it would end up with some kind of endless discussion. There is – in my opinion – no real evidence for any difference of liquamen and garum, especially if we consider the Price Edict and the Geoponika. I think “liquamen” is just a word that may have been introduced by people like Apicius as a terminus technicus to substitute “garum” in technical language and then spread more and more until Anthimus did only use the term “liquamen” ("Nam liquamen ex omni parte prohibimus."). Even the “so called liquamen” in the Geoponika leads to this direction.

                Best regards

                RM
                From: sallygrain@...
                Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 5:06 PM
                To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [Apicius] Garum and Liquamen (again)



                OK

                garum liquamen and the differences: i recently presented a paper at the British School at Rome to archaeologist of the fish trade in the Med. and therefore what follows is a pressi of what i said to them

                To start with you talk about Apicius as if he was the sole author and originator of the text when it is clear from our textual analysis that the recipe collection has multiple authors and they are slave cooks rather than a single gourmet. In terms of food at this level there were consumers and producers and it is the producers - the cooks - who we must trust to use the terminology correctly. You cannot argue that Apicius wrote this or that way, logically all the slave cooks wrote liquamen rather than garum for a reason. Equally you cannot place Apicius as a text in the late Empire reflecting a late usage for fish sauce. The terms used in it must reflect the way in which cooks expressed themselves throughout the classical period. The whole argument and justification for Vulgar Latin/Late Latin is based on elite usage. You say garum was the more commonplace term but in fact it is the other way round: Caelius Aurelianus says that the vulgar latin term in every day usage is liquamen. You also state that liquamen only occurs in Apicius but this is not the case. It is found in the Greek agricultural manual The Geoponica - you do all know that Andrew Dalby has recently published a new translation of this dont you ? - where it is a direct translation of the Greek garon but wait ...garon does not necessarily mean garum. It is also found frequently along with garum in the same veterinary recipe collections, particularly Vegetius and Pelagonius.
                (Pelagonius: liquamen: 9; 11.2; 13;98; 455; 457, garum: 428;13. Vegetius liquamen: 1.10.1; 1.17.10, 16; 2.91.2; 2.108.2; 2.132.4; 4.6.1, garum: 2.28.8; 3.28.10). In Galen it is also clear that two sauces were used: he refers simply to garon many times but only once or twice to garon melan. We have two names and two sauces so there shouldn't have been a problem!

                (Pelagonius: liquamen: 9; 11.2; 13;98; 455; 457, garum: 428;13. Vegetius liquamen: 1.10.1; 1.17.10, 16; 2.91.2; 2.108.2; 2.132.4; 4.6.1, garum: 2.28.8; 3.28.10). In Galen it is also clear that two sauces were used: he refers simply to garon many times but only once or twice to garon melan. We have two names and two sauces so there shouldn't have been a problem!

                Apicius - this is the title not the author - is an organic collection of recipes originally compiled, in it's earliest form, in Greek and we consider this to be in the late 1st century AD and possibly even earlier. We see no evidence of a formal publication date, only a finish date which is clearly 5/6th century. The chapter heading are in Greek and there are numerous terms that are not translated but transliterated i.e the Greek endings are converted into Latin endings so oenogaron: the Greek sauce made from the original Greek fish sauce and wine becomes oenogarum. Bare in mind the whole idea of fish sauce was originally Greek

                So if the cooks dont use garum qua garum one has to ask why? At this point I am pasting from the delivered paper

                What we first must do is acknowledge the presence of a blood and viscera sauce in the Ancient Mediterranean cuisine that we think of as Roman food. This sauce was a strong black and bloody condiment called in Greek garon melan or haimation that I believe was almost certainly handled by the consumer at table. This sauce was completely separate to the primary product in terms of archaeology (the amphora and fish bones) which was a cooking sauce made from whole-fish with extra viscera which provided enzymes which aided the liquefaction of the muscle tissue.
                The development and use of the primary product: a fish sauce made with whole fish, initially began in Greece and was a simple sauce made of very small fish (otherwise of no value) and salt used in everyday cooking. It is clear from references in 3rd century new comedy in Athens that this sauce was used with oil and vinegar or wine as a dressing for vegetables and pulses and was not considered particularly elite. My colleague Andrew Dalby has stated it to be a commonplace ingredient and it is noteworthy that Archestratus, the 2nd century Greek gourmet poet writing from Sicily about the best fish does not mention fish sauce at all. Later Galen in the 2nd Century AD is also suggesting the use of garos in dressing of oil and vinegar to accompany simple vegetables. The Apicius recipes collection includes a whole section on vegetables which are also largely accompanied by oil, wine and fish sauce. These simple blended sauces are basically like vinaigrette and are throughout the Apicius recipe text in various forms. The most common was an oenogarum a transliterated term from the Greek. In fact when oenogarum is translated into Latin - it is found in Ps. Gargilius Martialis recipe - it appears as Confectio liquaminis. So there rearly is no garum in Apicius. This means of cause that there is no blood and viscera garum, because as a table sauce it was used on food rather than in the cooking and was also used to make elite oenogarum that may have been blended at table by the gourmet or slaves attendants.

                This simple Greek whole fish sauce almost certainly came to Rome as garon transliterated into garum but was still this simple liquefied fish sauce. As fish sauce became popular in Rome the elite were concerned with differentiating their foods from everybody else’s and I believe they may have instigated new developments in fish sauce types, one of which was the blood and viscera sauce and one was the use of much larger fish that did have a market value such as mackerel and larger clupeidae and sparidae which could have been used as salted fish.
                I believe the confusion over the terminology occurred when the elite retained the term garum - the transliterated and now fashionable Greek term to designate their new table sauce made from blood and viscera and the manufacturer, trader , merchant and cook had to coin a new term in Latin to designate the original and commonplace fish sauce, called garon made from whole fish. This was liquamen, the derivation of which is ‘to liquefy so it is aptly titled.
                We have mentioned the absence of garum from Apicius but we must also mention the absence of the separate Latin blood garum from Diocletians price edict in 301 AD . Here liquamen is equivalent to garos not garum just as we find in the Geoponica. These two absences are of cause the primary reason for the 'single sauce hypothesis' advovated by Curtis. If however you see these absences as evidence that the blood garum was no longer sufficiently popular in the early 4th century AD to warrant its own price on the edict or a mention in the recipes, then the later dominance of liquamen is explained. In fact (a guess) I believe the elite blood viscera garum had a relatively small market in comparison to liquamen and was made to appear more important because of the unusually close view we get of the elite at table in the early empire through satire. It was still made in the late empire as we know Ausonius acquired a jar in the mid 4th century but it seems it was a special delivery and therefore probably not readily available in southern France, and he is also very confused as to what to call it!
                The original Greek sauce – garos equivalent to liquamen - remained the primary product. We can I think come to see how it was that later sources began to say that garum was liquamen. Caelius Aurelianus says that the vulgar latin term in every day usage is liquamen – I don’t think he means just the poor here - and the elite prefer garum but in principle it’s the same product. if Pliny can fail to see the two sauces when it was popular, when the blood sauce has become rare it would seem quite logical to revert to the earlier usage and make the assumption that everyone has - ancient and modern - that the Greek and Latin meant the same thing'.
                note: I have not pasted the bit from Pliny but he is the cause of most of the confusion as he conflates both sauces into one. His elite expensive garum is made from viscera and most interpretations of his definition of fish sauce presupposed that he also meant to say small fish as he goes on to suggest that allec was the residue of garum but the blood viscera sauce has no bones or fish paste to make an allec. Only the primary fish sauce generates a fish paste.
                Hope this helps. It is a theory i will own but a thoroughly rational and logical one according to the archaeologists (and Robert Curtis who has been an adviser), I spoke to and they will be moving forward in analysing amphorae shapes and fish bone residues with the idea that there were two basic types of sauce in the 1st century AD when all the archaeology is most prolific.

                Sally Grainger

                -----Original Message-----
                From: RM <mailto:apicius%40maierphil.de>
                To: Apicius <mailto:Apicius%40yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Sat, 14 Jul 2012 14:05
                Subject: [Apicius] Garum and Liquamen (again)

                I am sorry, but are you really sure that there is any evidence for a difference between garum and the Apician “liquamen”? “liquamen” is a word used only by Apicius instead of the more common word “garum”. A good example is the following recipe:
                “Hydrogarata isicia sic facies: teres piper, ligusticum, pyrethrum minimum, suffundes liquamen. temperas aquam cisterninam, dum inducet, exinanies in caccabo, et tum isicia ad vaporem ignis pones, ut caleat, et sic sorbendum inferes.”
                This means that to make “hydrogarum” Apicius used “liquamen” et “aqua cisternina”. “liquamen” for Apicius is just a terminus technicus. The word “liquamen” has been used in antiquity just by Columella (who used it in a different context) and once by Flavius Vopiscus Syracusius on Aurelius where it meant “garum”. The hypothesis of a difference between garum and liquamen sounds interesting but I think Apicius just introduced the word “liquamen” as a t.t. in order to substitute the common word “garum”.

                Best regards

                RM

                From: mailto:sallygrain%40aol.com
                Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2012 1:49 PM
                To: mailto:Apicius%40yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [Apicius] Recent Cook Out

                good to know the dishes worked
                Can i just point out - as i am a bit of a stickler for such things - that the recipes in Apicius use the word liquamen rather than garum because they represent two different sauces - one whole-fish sauce, one a blood viscera fish sauce and I don't want to see an inaccurate ref that puports to be from my book where you have changed liquamen into garum in the belief that they are synonymous - they were not.

                thanks so much
                sally

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • RM
                Just a little correction and an addition: The Geoponika have been written down about 600 years after the Price Edict (not 800!). The word “garum” is found
                Message 7 of 25 , Jul 15, 2012
                • 0 Attachment
                  Just a little correction and an addition: The Geoponika have been written down about 600 years after the Price Edict (not 800!). The word “garum” is found twice within the Apicius recipes, in 7, 13, 1 (with “liquamen” in the same recipe!) and Exc. 29 (according to Vollmer & Milham).

                  Best regards

                  RM


                  From: RM
                  Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 8:36 PM
                  To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [Apicius] Garum and Liquamen (again)


                  Well, we don’t know exactly when the Apicius collection has been compiled but it is quite sure that has been compiled from a base of earlier recipes from which about a third is to be considered to be from an original cookbook probabely written by the same Apicius who has been mentioned in Plinius’ Naturalis Historia (see Brandt: “Untersuchungen zum römischen Kochbuch” in Philologus Suppl. XIX, 3). From the Historia Augusta we learn that Aelius Verus who died in 138 took three books into his bed: Amores by Ovid, Apicius and Martial. We may believe this or not. If we believe it there should have been an edition of Apicius at those times. I didn’t say that Apicius was the only one who ever mentioned “liquamen” – I said he was the only one who used it in this sense in antiquity, Vegetius and Pelagonius lived in very late antiquity, but you wouldn’t find the term before Columella where it signified just a liquid. The question is therefore if your “liquamen”, that may differ from “garum”, was invented after the 1st or 2nd century. There is no doubt that there were many different types and qualities of garum (“... , creveruntque genera ad infinitum, ...” Plin. NH 31, 95). Plinius tells us that Apicius used the so called “garum sociorum” which is just a type of garum. In his Naturalis Historia Plinius mentioned “garum” sometimes – liquamen never. I personally believe that Plinius did know very well what he was writing about in book 31 where he describes the production of “garum” – there he calls it a “liquor” (not “liquamen” of course). What you can find in the Diocletian’s Price Edict are two terms (3.6): “garou geúmatos prwteíou” in Greek, “liquaminis primi” in Latin – there the word “liquamen” appears as a simple translation of “garon” (why do you think it should be “garos”?). The Geoponika, of course, has been compiled 800 years later, using authors of the late antiquity but it is very interesting that in the Geoponika the Latin word “liquamen” appears twice as “tò kaloúmenon likouamen” (=“the so called liquamen”) in the chapter "Garwn piohsis" (20, 46, 1+2).

                  Well, I better stop here because it would end up with some kind of endless discussion. There is – in my opinion – no real evidence for any difference of liquamen and garum, especially if we consider the Price Edict and the Geoponika. I think “liquamen” is just a word that may have been introduced by people like Apicius as a terminus technicus to substitute “garum” in technical language and then spread more and more until Anthimus did only use the term “liquamen” ("Nam liquamen ex omni parte prohibimus."). Even the “so called liquamen” in the Geoponika leads to this direction.

                  Best regards

                  RM
                  From: mailto:sallygrain%40aol.com
                  Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 5:06 PM
                  To: mailto:Apicius%40yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [Apicius] Garum and Liquamen (again)

                  OK

                  garum liquamen and the differences: i recently presented a paper at the British School at Rome to archaeologist of the fish trade in the Med. and therefore what follows is a pressi of what i said to them

                  To start with you talk about Apicius as if he was the sole author and originator of the text when it is clear from our textual analysis that the recipe collection has multiple authors and they are slave cooks rather than a single gourmet. In terms of food at this level there were consumers and producers and it is the producers - the cooks - who we must trust to use the terminology correctly. You cannot argue that Apicius wrote this or that way, logically all the slave cooks wrote liquamen rather than garum for a reason. Equally you cannot place Apicius as a text in the late Empire reflecting a late usage for fish sauce. The terms used in it must reflect the way in which cooks expressed themselves throughout the classical period. The whole argument and justification for Vulgar Latin/Late Latin is based on elite usage. You say garum was the more commonplace term but in fact it is the other way round: Caelius Aurelianus says that the vulgar latin term in every day usage is liquamen. You also state that liquamen only occurs in Apicius but this is not the case. It is found in the Greek agricultural manual The Geoponica - you do all know that Andrew Dalby has recently published a new translation of this dont you ? - where it is a direct translation of the Greek garon but wait ...garon does not necessarily mean garum. It is also found frequently along with garum in the same veterinary recipe collections, particularly Vegetius and Pelagonius.
                  (Pelagonius: liquamen: 9; 11.2; 13;98; 455; 457, garum: 428;13. Vegetius liquamen: 1.10.1; 1.17.10, 16; 2.91.2; 2.108.2; 2.132.4; 4.6.1, garum: 2.28.8; 3.28.10). In Galen it is also clear that two sauces were used: he refers simply to garon many times but only once or twice to garon melan. We have two names and two sauces so there shouldn't have been a problem!

                  (Pelagonius: liquamen: 9; 11.2; 13;98; 455; 457, garum: 428;13. Vegetius liquamen: 1.10.1; 1.17.10, 16; 2.91.2; 2.108.2; 2.132.4; 4.6.1, garum: 2.28.8; 3.28.10). In Galen it is also clear that two sauces were used: he refers simply to garon many times but only once or twice to garon melan. We have two names and two sauces so there shouldn't have been a problem!

                  Apicius - this is the title not the author - is an organic collection of recipes originally compiled, in it's earliest form, in Greek and we consider this to be in the late 1st century AD and possibly even earlier. We see no evidence of a formal publication date, only a finish date which is clearly 5/6th century. The chapter heading are in Greek and there are numerous terms that are not translated but transliterated i.e the Greek endings are converted into Latin endings so oenogaron: the Greek sauce made from the original Greek fish sauce and wine becomes oenogarum. Bare in mind the whole idea of fish sauce was originally Greek

                  So if the cooks dont use garum qua garum one has to ask why? At this point I am pasting from the delivered paper

                  What we first must do is acknowledge the presence of a blood and viscera sauce in the Ancient Mediterranean cuisine that we think of as Roman food. This sauce was a strong black and bloody condiment called in Greek garon melan or haimation that I believe was almost certainly handled by the consumer at table. This sauce was completely separate to the primary product in terms of archaeology (the amphora and fish bones) which was a cooking sauce made from whole-fish with extra viscera which provided enzymes which aided the liquefaction of the muscle tissue.
                  The development and use of the primary product: a fish sauce made with whole fish, initially began in Greece and was a simple sauce made of very small fish (otherwise of no value) and salt used in everyday cooking. It is clear from references in 3rd century new comedy in Athens that this sauce was used with oil and vinegar or wine as a dressing for vegetables and pulses and was not considered particularly elite. My colleague Andrew Dalby has stated it to be a commonplace ingredient and it is noteworthy that Archestratus, the 2nd century Greek gourmet poet writing from Sicily about the best fish does not mention fish sauce at all. Later Galen in the 2nd Century AD is also suggesting the use of garos in dressing of oil and vinegar to accompany simple vegetables. The Apicius recipes collection includes a whole section on vegetables which are also largely accompanied by oil, wine and fish sauce. These simple blended sauces are basically like vinaigrette and are throughout the Apicius recipe text in various forms. The most common was an oenogarum a transliterated term from the Greek. In fact when oenogarum is translated into Latin - it is found in Ps. Gargilius Martialis recipe - it appears as Confectio liquaminis. So there rearly is no garum in Apicius. This means of cause that there is no blood and viscera garum, because as a table sauce it was used on food rather than in the cooking and was also used to make elite oenogarum that may have been blended at table by the gourmet or slaves attendants.

                  This simple Greek whole fish sauce almost certainly came to Rome as garon transliterated into garum but was still this simple liquefied fish sauce. As fish sauce became popular in Rome the elite were concerned with differentiating their foods from everybody else’s and I believe they may have instigated new developments in fish sauce types, one of which was the blood and viscera sauce and one was the use of much larger fish that did have a market value such as mackerel and larger clupeidae and sparidae which could have been used as salted fish.
                  I believe the confusion over the terminology occurred when the elite retained the term garum - the transliterated and now fashionable Greek term to designate their new table sauce made from blood and viscera and the manufacturer, trader , merchant and cook had to coin a new term in Latin to designate the original and commonplace fish sauce, called garon made from whole fish. This was liquamen, the derivation of which is ‘to liquefy so it is aptly titled.
                  We have mentioned the absence of garum from Apicius but we must also mention the absence of the separate Latin blood garum from Diocletians price edict in 301 AD . Here liquamen is equivalent to garos not garum just as we find in the Geoponica. These two absences are of cause the primary reason for the 'single sauce hypothesis' advovated by Curtis. If however you see these absences as evidence that the blood garum was no longer sufficiently popular in the early 4th century AD to warrant its own price on the edict or a mention in the recipes, then the later dominance of liquamen is explained. In fact (a guess) I believe the elite blood viscera garum had a relatively small market in comparison to liquamen and was made to appear more important because of the unusually close view we get of the elite at table in the early empire through satire. It was still made in the late empire as we know Ausonius acquired a jar in the mid 4th century but it seems it was a special delivery and therefore probably not readily available in southern France, and he is also very confused as to what to call it!
                  The original Greek sauce – garos equivalent to liquamen - remained the primary product. We can I think come to see how it was that later sources began to say that garum was liquamen. Caelius Aurelianus says that the vulgar latin term in every day usage is liquamen – I don’t think he means just the poor here - and the elite prefer garum but in principle it’s the same product. if Pliny can fail to see the two sauces when it was popular, when the blood sauce has become rare it would seem quite logical to revert to the earlier usage and make the assumption that everyone has - ancient and modern - that the Greek and Latin meant the same thing'.
                  note: I have not pasted the bit from Pliny but he is the cause of most of the confusion as he conflates both sauces into one. His elite expensive garum is made from viscera and most interpretations of his definition of fish sauce presupposed that he also meant to say small fish as he goes on to suggest that allec was the residue of garum but the blood viscera sauce has no bones or fish paste to make an allec. Only the primary fish sauce generates a fish paste.
                  Hope this helps. It is a theory i will own but a thoroughly rational and logical one according to the archaeologists (and Robert Curtis who has been an adviser), I spoke to and they will be moving forward in analysing amphorae shapes and fish bone residues with the idea that there were two basic types of sauce in the 1st century AD when all the archaeology is most prolific.

                  Sally Grainger

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: RM <mailto:apicius%40maierphil.de>
                  To: Apicius <mailto:Apicius%40yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Sat, 14 Jul 2012 14:05
                  Subject: [Apicius] Garum and Liquamen (again)

                  I am sorry, but are you really sure that there is any evidence for a difference between garum and the Apician “liquamen”? “liquamen” is a word used only by Apicius instead of the more common word “garum”. A good example is the following recipe:
                  “Hydrogarata isicia sic facies: teres piper, ligusticum, pyrethrum minimum, suffundes liquamen. temperas aquam cisterninam, dum inducet, exinanies in caccabo, et tum isicia ad vaporem ignis pones, ut caleat, et sic sorbendum inferes.”
                  This means that to make “hydrogarum” Apicius used “liquamen” et “aqua cisternina”. “liquamen” for Apicius is just a terminus technicus. The word “liquamen” has been used in antiquity just by Columella (who used it in a different context) and once by Flavius Vopiscus Syracusius on Aurelius where it meant “garum”. The hypothesis of a difference between garum and liquamen sounds interesting but I think Apicius just introduced the word “liquamen” as a t.t. in order to substitute the common word “garum”.

                  Best regards

                  RM

                  From: mailto:sallygrain%40aol.com
                  Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2012 1:49 PM
                  To: mailto:Apicius%40yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [Apicius] Recent Cook Out

                  good to know the dishes worked
                  Can i just point out - as i am a bit of a stickler for such things - that the recipes in Apicius use the word liquamen rather than garum because they represent two different sauces - one whole-fish sauce, one a blood viscera fish sauce and I don't want to see an inaccurate ref that puports to be from my book where you have changed liquamen into garum in the belief that they are synonymous - they were not.

                  thanks so much
                  sally

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Donna
                  No problem ... actually what I used was an anchovie extract sauce that I bought. It was quite tasty, and if I m reading your other post correctly, is closer to
                  Message 8 of 25 , Jul 16, 2012
                  • 0 Attachment
                    No problem ... actually what I used was an anchovie extract sauce that I bought. It was quite tasty, and if I'm reading your other post correctly, is closer to liquamen than garum anyway.

                    Thanks,

                    Donna

                    --- In Apicius@yahoogroups.com, sallygrain@... wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > good to know the dishes worked
                    > Can i just point out - as i am a bit of a stickler for such things - that the recipes in Apicius use the word liquamen rather than garum because they represent two different sauces - one whole-fish sauce, one a blood viscera fish sauce and I don't want to see an inaccurate ref that puports to be from my book where you have changed liquamen into garum in the belief that they are synonymous - they were not.
                    >
                    > thanks so much
                    > sally
                    >
                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: Donna <donnaegreen@...>
                    > To: Apicius <Apicius@yahoogroups.com>
                    > Sent: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 23:53
                    > Subject: [Apicius] Recent Cook Out
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Last week I went to a five day long SCA event. I camped with a group of cooks and we cooked over fire the whole time. I made a few dishes from Apicius ...
                    >
                    > Apicius (Grainger)
                    > Book 4
                    > 4.1.1
                    > Sala cattabia. Pepper, mint, celery seed, dried pennyroyal, cheese, pine nuts, honey, vinegar, garum, yolks of eggs, fresh water. Squeeze dry bread soaked in some posca (dilute sour wine), cow's cheese and cucumer in a small pot, interlayered with pine nuts. Put in finely chopped capers with little chicken livers. Pour the sauce over it. Stand it in cold water and set it forth.
                    >
                    > Apicius (Grainger)
                    > Book 4
                    > 4.2.24
                    > Patina of fish. Scale any fish you like, clean and put to one side. Chop dried Ascalonian onions or another type of onion, into a dish and put the fish on top. Add garum and oil, bring it to heat; when it is cooked, place cooked salt fish in the middle; vinegar should be added; sprinkle with pepper and a circle of savory.
                    >
                    > Apicius (Grainger)
                    > Book 4
                    > 4.5.4
                    > Hors-d'oeuvre of apricots; take firm, early or undersized fruits, wash them, remove the stone and put them (to cook) in cold water and arrange them in a dish. Pound pepper, dried mint; pour garum; add honey; passum, wine and vinegar; pour over the apricots in the dish, add a little oil and let it come to heat over a gentle fir. When it is simmering, thicken it with starch, sprinkle with pepper and serve.
                    >
                    > Apicius (Grainger)
                    > Book 9
                    > 9.6 Sauce for Oysters
                    > Pepper, loveage, egg yolk, vinegar, garum, oil and wine. You can also add honey if you like.
                    >
                    > All were very yummy.
                    >
                    > Donna
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                  • RM
                    I prefer the Colatura di Alici which is quite salty (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colatura_di_alici_di_Cetara). The Colatura is still made in many households
                    Message 9 of 25 , Jul 16, 2012
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                      I prefer the Colatura di Alici which is quite salty (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colatura_di_alici_di_Cetara). The Colatura is still made in many households in the Sorrento region but commercially you will almost find the Colatura di Alici di Cetara – and you can buy it from Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00126WGIK/).

                      As I pointed out in my other mail, there is no evidence that “liquamen” and “garum” were different. It seems that “liquamen” was just a synonym used in late antiquity for “garum”. As we learn from Pliny the Elder there were many different types of “garum”, of course.

                      Best regards

                      RM


                      From: Donna
                      Sent: Monday, July 16, 2012 5:55 PM
                      To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [Apicius] Re: Recent Cook Out



                      No problem ... actually what I used was an anchovie extract sauce that I bought. It was quite tasty, and if I'm reading your other post correctly, is closer to liquamen than garum anyway.

                      Thanks,

                      Donna

                      --- In mailto:Apicius%40yahoogroups.com, sallygrain@... wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > good to know the dishes worked
                      > Can i just point out - as i am a bit of a stickler for such things - that the recipes in Apicius use the word liquamen rather than garum because they represent two different sauces - one whole-fish sauce, one a blood viscera fish sauce and I don't want to see an inaccurate ref that puports to be from my book where you have changed liquamen into garum in the belief that they are synonymous - they were not.
                      >
                      > thanks so much
                      > sally
                      >
                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: Donna <donnaegreen@...>
                      > To: Apicius <mailto:Apicius%40yahoogroups.com>
                      > Sent: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 23:53
                      > Subject: [Apicius] Recent Cook Out
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Last week I went to a five day long SCA event. I camped with a group of cooks and we cooked over fire the whole time. I made a few dishes from Apicius ...
                      >
                      > Apicius (Grainger)
                      > Book 4
                      > 4.1.1
                      > Sala cattabia. Pepper, mint, celery seed, dried pennyroyal, cheese, pine nuts, honey, vinegar, garum, yolks of eggs, fresh water. Squeeze dry bread soaked in some posca (dilute sour wine), cow's cheese and cucumer in a small pot, interlayered with pine nuts. Put in finely chopped capers with little chicken livers. Pour the sauce over it. Stand it in cold water and set it forth.
                      >
                      > Apicius (Grainger)
                      > Book 4
                      > 4.2.24
                      > Patina of fish. Scale any fish you like, clean and put to one side. Chop dried Ascalonian onions or another type of onion, into a dish and put the fish on top. Add garum and oil, bring it to heat; when it is cooked, place cooked salt fish in the middle; vinegar should be added; sprinkle with pepper and a circle of savory.
                      >
                      > Apicius (Grainger)
                      > Book 4
                      > 4.5.4
                      > Hors-d'oeuvre of apricots; take firm, early or undersized fruits, wash them, remove the stone and put them (to cook) in cold water and arrange them in a dish. Pound pepper, dried mint; pour garum; add honey; passum, wine and vinegar; pour over the apricots in the dish, add a little oil and let it come to heat over a gentle fir. When it is simmering, thicken it with starch, sprinkle with pepper and serve.
                      >
                      > Apicius (Grainger)
                      > Book 9
                      > 9.6 Sauce for Oysters
                      > Pepper, loveage, egg yolk, vinegar, garum, oil and wine. You can also add honey if you like.
                      >
                      > All were very yummy.
                      >
                      > Donna
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • sallygrain@aol.com
                      Hi Your approach to fish sauce is too simplistic I am afraid. Do you not even recognise the fact of a separate blood and viscera sauce different from the
                      Message 10 of 25 , Jul 16, 2012
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Hi

                        Your approach to fish sauce is too simplistic I am afraid. Do you not even recognise the fact of a separate blood and viscera sauce different from the whole-fish sauce. They cannot both be garum!, the former black and bloody, the latter pale golden according to Pliny. They have different uses, the garon melan was used at table and so became a fashionable ingredient to discuss in satire, the cooking liquamen was only used in the kitchen by slaves and therefore was not recognised as a separate sauce by the elite. The tituli picti associated with amphorae from Pompeii and Rome reflect the frequent usage of liquamen in the 1st century along side garum. We find garum scombri flos and liquamen flos in contempory sites: they have to mean two separate sauces, there is no way out of that one!

                        sally

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: RM <apicius@...>
                        To: Apicius <Apicius@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Sun, 15 Jul 2012 22:24
                        Subject: Re: [Apicius] Garum and Liquamen (again)




                        Just a little correction and an addition: The Geoponika have been written down about 600 years after the Price Edict (not 800!). The word “garum” is found twice within the Apicius recipes, in 7, 13, 1 (with “liquamen” in the same recipe!) and Exc. 29 (according to Vollmer & Milham).

                        Best regards

                        RM

                        From: RM
                        Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 8:36 PM
                        To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [Apicius] Garum and Liquamen (again)

                        Well, we don’t know exactly when the Apicius collection has been compiled but it is quite sure that has been compiled from a base of earlier recipes from which about a third is to be considered to be from an original cookbook probabely written by the same Apicius who has been mentioned in Plinius’ Naturalis Historia (see Brandt: “Untersuchungen zum römischen Kochbuch” in Philologus Suppl. XIX, 3). From the Historia Augusta we learn that Aelius Verus who died in 138 took three books into his bed: Amores by Ovid, Apicius and Martial. We may believe this or not. If we believe it there should have been an edition of Apicius at those times. I didn’t say that Apicius was the only one who ever mentioned “liquamen” – I said he was the only one who used it in this sense in antiquity, Vegetius and Pelagonius lived in very late antiquity, but you wouldn’t find the term before Columella where it signified just a liquid. The question is therefore if your “liquamen”, that may differ from “garum”, was invented after the 1st or 2nd century. There is no doubt that there were many different types and qualities of garum (“... , creveruntque genera ad infinitum, ...” Plin. NH 31, 95). Plinius tells us that Apicius used the so called “garum sociorum” which is just a type of garum. In his Naturalis Historia Plinius mentioned “garum” sometimes – liquamen never. I personally believe that Plinius did know very well what he was writing about in book 31 where he describes the production of “garum” – there he calls it a “liquor” (not “liquamen” of course). What you can find in the Diocletian’s Price Edict are two terms (3.6): “garou geúmatos prwteíou” in Greek, “liquaminis primi” in Latin – there the word “liquamen” appears as a simple translation of “garon” (why do you think it should be “garos”?). The Geoponika, of course, has been compiled 800 years later, using authors of the late antiquity but it is very interesting that in the Geoponika the Latin word “liquamen” appears twice as “tò kaloúmenon likouamen” (=“the so called liquamen”) in the chapter "Garwn piohsis" (20, 46, 1+2).

                        Well, I better stop here because it would end up with some kind of endless discussion. There is – in my opinion – no real evidence for any difference of liquamen and garum, especially if we consider the Price Edict and the Geoponika. I think “liquamen” is just a word that may have been introduced by people like Apicius as a terminus technicus to substitute “garum” in technical language and then spread more and more until Anthimus did only use the term “liquamen” ("Nam liquamen ex omni parte prohibimus."). Even the “so called liquamen” in the Geoponika leads to this direction.

                        Best regards

                        RM
                        From: mailto:sallygrain%40aol.com
                        Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 5:06 PM
                        To: mailto:Apicius%40yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [Apicius] Garum and Liquamen (again)

                        OK

                        garum liquamen and the differences: i recently presented a paper at the British School at Rome to archaeologist of the fish trade in the Med. and therefore what follows is a pressi of what i said to them

                        To start with you talk about Apicius as if he was the sole author and originator of the text when it is clear from our textual analysis that the recipe collection has multiple authors and they are slave cooks rather than a single gourmet. In terms of food at this level there were consumers and producers and it is the producers - the cooks - who we must trust to use the terminology correctly. You cannot argue that Apicius wrote this or that way, logically all the slave cooks wrote liquamen rather than garum for a reason. Equally you cannot place Apicius as a text in the late Empire reflecting a late usage for fish sauce. The terms used in it must reflect the way in which cooks expressed themselves throughout the classical period. The whole argument and justification for Vulgar Latin/Late Latin is based on elite usage. You say garum was the more commonplace term but in fact it is the other way round: Caelius Aurelianus says that the vulgar latin term in every day usage is liquamen. You also state that liquamen only occurs in Apicius but this is not the case. It is found in the Greek agricultural manual The Geoponica - you do all know that Andrew Dalby has recently published a new translation of this dont you ? - where it is a direct translation of the Greek garon but wait ...garon does not necessarily mean garum. It is also found frequently along with garum in the same veterinary recipe collections, particularly Vegetius and Pelagonius.
                        (Pelagonius: liquamen: 9; 11.2; 13;98; 455; 457, garum: 428;13. Vegetius liquamen: 1.10.1; 1.17.10, 16; 2.91.2; 2.108.2; 2.132.4; 4.6.1, garum: 2.28.8; 3.28.10). In Galen it is also clear that two sauces were used: he refers simply to garon many times but only once or twice to garon melan. We have two names and two sauces so there shouldn't have been a problem!

                        (Pelagonius: liquamen: 9; 11.2; 13;98; 455; 457, garum: 428;13. Vegetius liquamen: 1.10.1; 1.17.10, 16; 2.91.2; 2.108.2; 2.132.4; 4.6.1, garum: 2.28.8; 3.28.10). In Galen it is also clear that two sauces were used: he refers simply to garon many times but only once or twice to garon melan. We have two names and two sauces so there shouldn't have been a problem!

                        Apicius - this is the title not the author - is an organic collection of recipes originally compiled, in it's earliest form, in Greek and we consider this to be in the late 1st century AD and possibly even earlier. We see no evidence of a formal publication date, only a finish date which is clearly 5/6th century. The chapter heading are in Greek and there are numerous terms that are not translated but transliterated i.e the Greek endings are converted into Latin endings so oenogaron: the Greek sauce made from the original Greek fish sauce and wine becomes oenogarum. Bare in mind the whole idea of fish sauce was originally Greek

                        So if the cooks dont use garum qua garum one has to ask why? At this point I am pasting from the delivered paper

                        What we first must do is acknowledge the presence of a blood and viscera sauce in the Ancient Mediterranean cuisine that we think of as Roman food. This sauce was a strong black and bloody condiment called in Greek garon melan or haimation that I believe was almost certainly handled by the consumer at table. This sauce was completely separate to the primary product in terms of archaeology (the amphora and fish bones) which was a cooking sauce made from whole-fish with extra viscera which provided enzymes which aided the liquefaction of the muscle tissue.
                        The development and use of the primary product: a fish sauce made with whole fish, initially began in Greece and was a simple sauce made of very small fish (otherwise of no value) and salt used in everyday cooking. It is clear from references in 3rd century new comedy in Athens that this sauce was used with oil and vinegar or wine as a dressing for vegetables and pulses and was not considered particularly elite. My colleague Andrew Dalby has stated it to be a commonplace ingredient and it is noteworthy that Archestratus, the 2nd century Greek gourmet poet writing from Sicily about the best fish does not mention fish sauce at all. Later Galen in the 2nd Century AD is also suggesting the use of garos in dressing of oil and vinegar to accompany simple vegetables. The Apicius recipes collection includes a whole section on vegetables which are also largely accompanied by oil, wine and fish sauce. These simple blended sauces are basically like vinaigrette and are throughout the Apicius recipe text in various forms. The most common was an oenogarum a transliterated term from the Greek. In fact when oenogarum is translated into Latin - it is found in Ps. Gargilius Martialis recipe - it appears as Confectio liquaminis. So there rearly is no garum in Apicius. This means of cause that there is no blood and viscera garum, because as a table sauce it was used on food rather than in the cooking and was also used to make elite oenogarum that may have been blended at table by the gourmet or slaves attendants.

                        This simple Greek whole fish sauce almost certainly came to Rome as garon transliterated into garum but was still this simple liquefied fish sauce. As fish sauce became popular in Rome the elite were concerned with differentiating their foods from everybody else’s and I believe they may have instigated new developments in fish sauce types, one of which was the blood and viscera sauce and one was the use of much larger fish that did have a market value such as mackerel and larger clupeidae and sparidae which could have been used as salted fish.
                        I believe the confusion over the terminology occurred when the elite retained the term garum - the transliterated and now fashionable Greek term to designate their new table sauce made from blood and viscera and the manufacturer, trader , merchant and cook had to coin a new term in Latin to designate the original and commonplace fish sauce, called garon made from whole fish. This was liquamen, the derivation of which is ‘to liquefy so it is aptly titled.
                        We have mentioned the absence of garum from Apicius but we must also mention the absence of the separate Latin blood garum from Diocletians price edict in 301 AD . Here liquamen is equivalent to garos not garum just as we find in the Geoponica. These two absences are of cause the primary reason for the 'single sauce hypothesis' advovated by Curtis. If however you see these absences as evidence that the blood garum was no longer sufficiently popular in the early 4th century AD to warrant its own price on the edict or a mention in the recipes, then the later dominance of liquamen is explained. In fact (a guess) I believe the elite blood viscera garum had a relatively small market in comparison to liquamen and was made to appear more important because of the unusually close view we get of the elite at table in the early empire through satire. It was still made in the late empire as we know Ausonius acquired a jar in the mid 4th century but it seems it was a special delivery and therefore probably not readily available in southern France, and he is also very confused as to what to call it!
                        The original Greek sauce – garos equivalent to liquamen - remained the primary product. We can I think come to see how it was that later sources began to say that garum was liquamen. Caelius Aurelianus says that the vulgar latin term in every day usage is liquamen – I don’t think he means just the poor here - and the elite prefer garum but in principle it’s the same product. if Pliny can fail to see the two sauces when it was popular, when the blood sauce has become rare it would seem quite logical to revert to the earlier usage and make the assumption that everyone has - ancient and modern - that the Greek and Latin meant the same thing'.
                        note: I have not pasted the bit from Pliny but he is the cause of most of the confusion as he conflates both sauces into one. His elite expensive garum is made from viscera and most interpretations of his definition of fish sauce presupposed that he also meant to say small fish as he goes on to suggest that allec was the residue of garum but the blood viscera sauce has no bones or fish paste to make an allec. Only the primary fish sauce generates a fish paste.
                        Hope this helps. It is a theory i will own but a thoroughly rational and logical one according to the archaeologists (and Robert Curtis who has been an adviser), I spoke to and they will be moving forward in analysing amphorae shapes and fish bone residues with the idea that there were two basic types of sauce in the 1st century AD when all the archaeology is most prolific.

                        Sally Grainger

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: RM <mailto:apicius%40maierphil.de>;
                        To: Apicius <mailto:Apicius%40yahoogroups.com>;
                        Sent: Sat, 14 Jul 2012 14:05
                        Subject: [Apicius] Garum and Liquamen (again)

                        I am sorry, but are you really sure that there is any evidence for a difference between garum and the Apician “liquamen”? “liquamen” is a word used only by Apicius instead of the more common word “garum”. A good example is the following recipe:
                        “Hydrogarata isicia sic facies: teres piper, ligusticum, pyrethrum minimum, suffundes liquamen. temperas aquam cisterninam, dum inducet, exinanies in caccabo, et tum isicia ad vaporem ignis pones, ut caleat, et sic sorbendum inferes.”
                        This means that to make “hydrogarum” Apicius used “liquamen” et “aqua cisternina”. “liquamen” for Apicius is just a terminus technicus. The word “liquamen” has been used in antiquity just by Columella (who used it in a different context) and once by Flavius Vopiscus Syracusius on Aurelius where it meant “garum”. The hypothesis of a difference between garum and liquamen sounds interesting but I think Apicius just introduced the word “liquamen” as a t.t. in order to substitute the common word “garum”.

                        Best regards

                        RM

                        From: mailto:sallygrain%40aol.com
                        Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2012 1:49 PM
                        To: mailto:Apicius%40yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [Apicius] Recent Cook Out

                        good to know the dishes worked
                        Can i just point out - as i am a bit of a stickler for such things - that the recipes in Apicius use the word liquamen rather than garum because they represent two different sauces - one whole-fish sauce, one a blood viscera fish sauce and I don't want to see an inaccurate ref that puports to be from my book where you have changed liquamen into garum in the belief that they are synonymous - they were not.

                        thanks so much
                        sally

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                      • RM
                        Hi Sally, the fact that a lot of differt types of “garum” existed is obviously true but it is not my idea. This has already been reported by Pliny in the
                        Message 11 of 25 , Jul 16, 2012
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                          Hi Sally,

                          the fact that a lot of differt types of “garum” existed is obviously true but it is not my idea. This has already been reported by Pliny in the half sentence I cited before: “... , creveruntque genera ad infinitum, ...” (Plin. NH 31, 95). So why shouldn’t Pliny be right? I am sure that there were not only the two forms of “garum” that you mentioned but a lot of other varieties, too. So why shouldn’t they have been sold eventually under the same name “garum”? In the Price Edict and even in the Geoponika “liquamen” (or in Greek letters “likouamen”) is clearly a synonym / translation of the Greek word garon. The Price Edict has a first and a second quality of garon / liquamen. The name of both qualities was the same but to produce different qualities probabely the ingredients were somewhat different. And then there is also the Apicius recipe 7, 13, 1 garum and liquamen do mean exactly the same: “fungi farnei: elixi, calidi, exsiccati in garo piper<ato> accipiuntur, ita ut piper cum liquamine teres.” – I cited this from my own Apicius edition where it is numbered 7, 15, 1 (ed. Robert Maier, Reclam, Stuttgart 1991), the text of your edition has “piper” instead of “piper<ato>”. Unfortunately Manilius doesn’t tell us the names of what his fishermen were creating in the Astronomica 5, 667 sqq.
                          To conclude: I think it’s an alluring hypothesis to believe in a real difference between “garum” and “liquamen” but it’s a hypothesis that lacks evidence. As we can deduce from the Price Edict and the Geoponika “liquamen” was a synonym at least of the Greek “garon” and probabely also of the Roman “garum”, as we see in Apic. 7, 13, 1. What we eventually could assume is that “liquamen” in some contexts might have been understood as a specific quality of “garum” (some filtered high quality “garum”) but there is certainly no general distinction. On the amphorae one should expect some trade names, as we use today the word “balsamico” for a specific type of vinegar, while the product class remains “vinegar”. So in our case the product class would be “garum” including more specific appellations like “garum sociorum”, “garum scombri”, “liquamen” etc. At the end “liquamen” was used as a general term (because everyone tends to use only the very best quality), just as it happened in the case of “iecur” which, at the end, was called always “ficatum” and became “fegato”, “foie” etc. in the different modern languages.

                          Best wishes,

                          Robert


                          From: sallygrain@...
                          Sent: Monday, July 16, 2012 7:57 PM
                          To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [Apicius] Garum and Liquamen (again)




                          Hi

                          Your approach to fish sauce is too simplistic I am afraid. Do you not even recognise the fact of a separate blood and viscera sauce different from the whole-fish sauce. They cannot both be garum!, the former black and bloody, the latter pale golden according to Pliny. They have different uses, the garon melan was used at table and so became a fashionable ingredient to discuss in satire, the cooking liquamen was only used in the kitchen by slaves and therefore was not recognised as a separate sauce by the elite. The tituli picti associated with amphorae from Pompeii and Rome reflect the frequent usage of liquamen in the 1st century along side garum. We find garum scombri flos and liquamen flos in contempory sites: they have to mean two separate sauces, there is no way out of that one!

                          sally

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: RM <mailto:apicius%40maierphil.de>
                          To: Apicius <mailto:Apicius%40yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Sun, 15 Jul 2012 22:24
                          Subject: Re: [Apicius] Garum and Liquamen (again)

                          Just a little correction and an addition: The Geoponika have been written down about 600 years after the Price Edict (not 800!). The word “garum” is found twice within the Apicius recipes, in 7, 13, 1 (with “liquamen” in the same recipe!) and Exc. 29 (according to Vollmer & Milham).

                          Best regards

                          RM

                          From: RM
                          Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 8:36 PM
                          To: mailto:Apicius%40yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [Apicius] Garum and Liquamen (again)

                          Well, we don’t know exactly when the Apicius collection has been compiled but it is quite sure that has been compiled from a base of earlier recipes from which about a third is to be considered to be from an original cookbook probabely written by the same Apicius who has been mentioned in Plinius’ Naturalis Historia (see Brandt: “Untersuchungen zum römischen Kochbuch” in Philologus Suppl. XIX, 3). From the Historia Augusta we learn that Aelius Verus who died in 138 took three books into his bed: Amores by Ovid, Apicius and Martial. We may believe this or not. If we believe it there should have been an edition of Apicius at those times. I didn’t say that Apicius was the only one who ever mentioned “liquamen” – I said he was the only one who used it in this sense in antiquity, Vegetius and Pelagonius lived in very late antiquity, but you wouldn’t find the term before Columella where it signified just a liquid. The question is therefore if your “liquamen”, that may differ from “garum”, was invented after the 1st or 2nd century. There is no doubt that there were many different types and qualities of garum (“... , creveruntque genera ad infinitum, ...” Plin. NH 31, 95). Plinius tells us that Apicius used the so called “garum sociorum” which is just a type of garum. In his Naturalis Historia Plinius mentioned “garum” sometimes – liquamen never. I personally believe that Plinius did know very well what he was writing about in book 31 where he describes the production of “garum” – there he calls it a “liquor” (not “liquamen” of course). What you can find in the Diocletian’s Price Edict are two terms (3.6): “garou geúmatos prwteíou” in Greek, “liquaminis primi” in Latin – there the word “liquamen” appears as a simple translation of “garon” (why do you think it should be “garos”?). The Geoponika, of course, has been compiled 800 years later, using authors of the late antiquity but it is very interesting that in the Geoponika the Latin word “liquamen” appears twice as “tò kaloúmenon likouamen” (=“the so called liquamen”) in the chapter "Garwn piohsis" (20, 46, 1+2).

                          Well, I better stop here because it would end up with some kind of endless discussion. There is – in my opinion – no real evidence for any difference of liquamen and garum, especially if we consider the Price Edict and the Geoponika. I think “liquamen” is just a word that may have been introduced by people like Apicius as a terminus technicus to substitute “garum” in technical language and then spread more and more until Anthimus did only use the term “liquamen” ("Nam liquamen ex omni parte prohibimus."). Even the “so called liquamen” in the Geoponika leads to this direction.

                          Best regards

                          RM
                          From: mailto:sallygrain%40aol.com
                          Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 5:06 PM
                          To: mailto:Apicius%40yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [Apicius] Garum and Liquamen (again)

                          OK

                          garum liquamen and the differences: i recently presented a paper at the British School at Rome to archaeologist of the fish trade in the Med. and therefore what follows is a pressi of what i said to them

                          To start with you talk about Apicius as if he was the sole author and originator of the text when it is clear from our textual analysis that the recipe collection has multiple authors and they are slave cooks rather than a single gourmet. In terms of food at this level there were consumers and producers and it is the producers - the cooks - who we must trust to use the terminology correctly. You cannot argue that Apicius wrote this or that way, logically all the slave cooks wrote liquamen rather than garum for a reason. Equally you cannot place Apicius as a text in the late Empire reflecting a late usage for fish sauce. The terms used in it must reflect the way in which cooks expressed themselves throughout the classical period. The whole argument and justification for Vulgar Latin/Late Latin is based on elite usage. You say garum was the more commonplace term but in fact it is the other way round: Caelius Aurelianus says that the vulgar latin term in every day usage is liquamen. You also state that liquamen only occurs in Apicius but this is not the case. It is found in the Greek agricultural manual The Geoponica - you do all know that Andrew Dalby has recently published a new translation of this dont you ? - where it is a direct translation of the Greek garon but wait ...garon does not necessarily mean garum. It is also found frequently along with garum in the same veterinary recipe collections, particularly Vegetius and Pelagonius.
                          (Pelagonius: liquamen: 9; 11.2; 13;98; 455; 457, garum: 428;13. Vegetius liquamen: 1.10.1; 1.17.10, 16; 2.91.2; 2.108.2; 2.132.4; 4.6.1, garum: 2.28.8; 3.28.10). In Galen it is also clear that two sauces were used: he refers simply to garon many times but only once or twice to garon melan. We have two names and two sauces so there shouldn't have been a problem!

                          (Pelagonius: liquamen: 9; 11.2; 13;98; 455; 457, garum: 428;13. Vegetius liquamen: 1.10.1; 1.17.10, 16; 2.91.2; 2.108.2; 2.132.4; 4.6.1, garum: 2.28.8; 3.28.10). In Galen it is also clear that two sauces were used: he refers simply to garon many times but only once or twice to garon melan. We have two names and two sauces so there shouldn't have been a problem!

                          Apicius - this is the title not the author - is an organic collection of recipes originally compiled, in it's earliest form, in Greek and we consider this to be in the late 1st century AD and possibly even earlier. We see no evidence of a formal publication date, only a finish date which is clearly 5/6th century. The chapter heading are in Greek and there are numerous terms that are not translated but transliterated i.e the Greek endings are converted into Latin endings so oenogaron: the Greek sauce made from the original Greek fish sauce and wine becomes oenogarum. Bare in mind the whole idea of fish sauce was originally Greek

                          So if the cooks dont use garum qua garum one has to ask why? At this point I am pasting from the delivered paper

                          What we first must do is acknowledge the presence of a blood and viscera sauce in the Ancient Mediterranean cuisine that we think of as Roman food. This sauce was a strong black and bloody condiment called in Greek garon melan or haimation that I believe was almost certainly handled by the consumer at table. This sauce was completely separate to the primary product in terms of archaeology (the amphora and fish bones) which was a cooking sauce made from whole-fish with extra viscera which provided enzymes which aided the liquefaction of the muscle tissue.
                          The development and use of the primary product: a fish sauce made with whole fish, initially began in Greece and was a simple sauce made of very small fish (otherwise of no value) and salt used in everyday cooking. It is clear from references in 3rd century new comedy in Athens that this sauce was used with oil and vinegar or wine as a dressing for vegetables and pulses and was not considered particularly elite. My colleague Andrew Dalby has stated it to be a commonplace ingredient and it is noteworthy that Archestratus, the 2nd century Greek gourmet poet writing from Sicily about the best fish does not mention fish sauce at all. Later Galen in the 2nd Century AD is also suggesting the use of garos in dressing of oil and vinegar to accompany simple vegetables. The Apicius recipes collection includes a whole section on vegetables which are also largely accompanied by oil, wine and fish sauce. These simple blended sauces are basically like vinaigrette and are throughout the Apicius recipe text in various forms. The most common was an oenogarum a transliterated term from the Greek. In fact when oenogarum is translated into Latin - it is found in Ps. Gargilius Martialis recipe - it appears as Confectio liquaminis. So there rearly is no garum in Apicius. This means of cause that there is no blood and viscera garum, because as a table sauce it was used on food rather than in the cooking and was also used to make elite oenogarum that may have been blended at table by the gourmet or slaves attendants.

                          This simple Greek whole fish sauce almost certainly came to Rome as garon transliterated into garum but was still this simple liquefied fish sauce. As fish sauce became popular in Rome the elite were concerned with differentiating their foods from everybody else’s and I believe they may have instigated new developments in fish sauce types, one of which was the blood and viscera sauce and one was the use of much larger fish that did have a market value such as mackerel and larger clupeidae and sparidae which could have been used as salted fish.
                          I believe the confusion over the terminology occurred when the elite retained the term garum - the transliterated and now fashionable Greek term to designate their new table sauce made from blood and viscera and the manufacturer, trader , merchant and cook had to coin a new term in Latin to designate the original and commonplace fish sauce, called garon made from whole fish. This was liquamen, the derivation of which is ‘to liquefy so it is aptly titled.
                          We have mentioned the absence of garum from Apicius but we must also mention the absence of the separate Latin blood garum from Diocletians price edict in 301 AD . Here liquamen is equivalent to garos not garum just as we find in the Geoponica. These two absences are of cause the primary reason for the 'single sauce hypothesis' advovated by Curtis. If however you see these absences as evidence that the blood garum was no longer sufficiently popular in the early 4th century AD to warrant its own price on the edict or a mention in the recipes, then the later dominance of liquamen is explained. In fact (a guess) I believe the elite blood viscera garum had a relatively small market in comparison to liquamen and was made to appear more important because of the unusually close view we get of the elite at table in the early empire through satire. It was still made in the late empire as we know Ausonius acquired a jar in the mid 4th century but it seems it was a special delivery and therefore probably not readily available in southern France, and he is also very confused as to what to call it!
                          The original Greek sauce – garos equivalent to liquamen - remained the primary product. We can I think come to see how it was that later sources began to say that garum was liquamen. Caelius Aurelianus says that the vulgar latin term in every day usage is liquamen – I don’t think he means just the poor here - and the elite prefer garum but in principle it’s the same product. if Pliny can fail to see the two sauces when it was popular, when the blood sauce has become rare it would seem quite logical to revert to the earlier usage and make the assumption that everyone has - ancient and modern - that the Greek and Latin meant the same thing'.
                          note: I have not pasted the bit from Pliny but he is the cause of most of the confusion as he conflates both sauces into one. His elite expensive garum is made from viscera and most interpretations of his definition of fish sauce presupposed that he also meant to say small fish as he goes on to suggest that allec was the residue of garum but the blood viscera sauce has no bones or fish paste to make an allec. Only the primary fish sauce generates a fish paste.
                          Hope this helps. It is a theory i will own but a thoroughly rational and logical one according to the archaeologists (and Robert Curtis who has been an adviser), I spoke to and they will be moving forward in analysing amphorae shapes and fish bone residues with the idea that there were two basic types of sauce in the 1st century AD when all the archaeology is most prolific.

                          Sally Grainger

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: RM <mailto:apicius%40maierphil.de>;
                          To: Apicius <mailto:Apicius%40yahoogroups.com>;
                          Sent: Sat, 14 Jul 2012 14:05
                          Subject: [Apicius] Garum and Liquamen (again)

                          I am sorry, but are you really sure that there is any evidence for a difference between garum and the Apician “liquamen”? “liquamen” is a word used only by Apicius instead of the more common word “garum”. A good example is the following recipe:
                          “Hydrogarata isicia sic facies: teres piper, ligusticum, pyrethrum minimum, suffundes liquamen. temperas aquam cisterninam, dum inducet, exinanies in caccabo, et tum isicia ad vaporem ignis pones, ut caleat, et sic sorbendum inferes.”
                          This means that to make “hydrogarum” Apicius used “liquamen” et “aqua cisternina”. “liquamen” for Apicius is just a terminus technicus. The word “liquamen” has been used in antiquity just by Columella (who used it in a different context) and once by Flavius Vopiscus Syracusius on Aurelius where it meant “garum”. The hypothesis of a difference between garum and liquamen sounds interesting but I think Apicius just introduced the word “liquamen” as a t.t. in order to substitute the common word “garum”.

                          Best regards

                          RM

                          From: mailto:sallygrain%40aol.com
                          Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2012 1:49 PM
                          To: mailto:Apicius%40yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [Apicius] Recent Cook Out

                          good to know the dishes worked
                          Can i just point out - as i am a bit of a stickler for such things - that the recipes in Apicius use the word liquamen rather than garum because they represent two different sauces - one whole-fish sauce, one a blood viscera fish sauce and I don't want to see an inaccurate ref that puports to be from my book where you have changed liquamen into garum in the belief that they are synonymous - they were not.

                          thanks so much
                          sally

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                        • sallygrain@aol.com
                          Your ref to Pliny is as follows in English for the rest then allec became a luxury and its various kinds have come to be inumerable These refer to
                          Message 12 of 25 , Jul 17, 2012
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                            Your ref to Pliny is as follows in English for the rest ' then allec became a luxury and its various kinds have come to be inumerable' These refer to enumerable kinds of allec or fish paste made from sea food and not neccesarily the liquid fish sauce derived from one kind of allec. The liquid fish sauce was not enumerable in kind but basically 2 types or 3 if you include muria 1, liquefied whole fish sauce. 2 fish blood and viscera 3. brine from salted fish which corresponds to coluratura die alici from the Naples area as this is made with eviscerated salted anchovy.

                            Ultimately then, you are basing your argument that liquamen is not a synonym for garum but is for garon on Apicius 7.13.1 which is one recipes out of 450+ That garum and liquamen appear in this recipes and only this one suggest to me that the pepper is ground with liquamen and them served with garum at table. Otherwise it makes no sence to use both terms. If they are there because whome ever wanted to translate the one with the other we would at least find this construction - using both terms more often in the rest of the text. The use of garum in the compound terms oenogarum, hydrogarum etc is not relavant as they are transliterated Greek.

                            You almost get it - The generic term only exists in Greek In latin technically there is no generic term but as they are so similar many ancient as well as modern scholars assume that the generic function was transferred to the Latin when it was translated. I will even allow that some ancients used garum when they actually meant liquamen but the manufacturer, trader, merchant and cook never would have got them mixed up - one was black and bloody, dark and strong used in drops while the other was pale brown and used in quantity. There simply had to be a way to distinguish them in trade. The acetabulum little vinegar cup in some recipes (p 83 ff our edition) hold 60ml and was blended with a similar amount of wine and fish sauce. The resulting oenogarum was delicious as i am sure you know. I have made blood garum and it is disgusting in those quantities. Check out http://www.ishiri.jp/en/ for the Japanese squid blood and viscera fish sauce which is pitch black and smells distinctly of blood - iron in fact, a frind who was a nurse told me it smells of digested blood after smelling the human gut in surgery.

                            You do know Ausonius' letter I am sure. He specifically says there is no latin word that he can use instead of garum which he rejects as its Greek in origin and he rejects Greek words. If liquamen was the equivelent of garum in Latin he would have no problem. Instead of cause he fuels our confussion with the use of muria which we cannot get tied up in now.

                            sally

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: RM <apicius@...>
                            To: Apicius <Apicius@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 0:15
                            Subject: Re: [Apicius] Garum and Liquamen (again)




                            Hi Sally,

                            the fact that a lot of differt types of “garum” existed is obviously true but it is not my idea. This has already been reported by Pliny in the half sentence I cited before: “... , creveruntque genera ad infinitum, ...” (Plin. NH 31, 95). So why shouldn’t Pliny be right? I am sure that there were not only the two forms of “garum” that you mentioned but a lot of other varieties, too. So why shouldn’t they have been sold eventually under the same name “garum”? In the Price Edict and even in the Geoponika “liquamen” (or in Greek letters “likouamen”) is clearly a synonym / translation of the Greek word garon. The Price Edict has a first and a second quality of garon / liquamen. The name of both qualities was the same but to produce different qualities probabely the ingredients were somewhat different. And then there is also the Apicius recipe 7, 13, 1 garum and liquamen do mean exactly the same: “fungi farnei: elixi, calidi, exsiccati in garo piper<ato> accipiuntur, ita ut piper cum liquamine teres.” – I cited this from my own Apicius edition where it is numbered 7, 15, 1 (ed. Robert Maier, Reclam, Stuttgart 1991), the text of your edition has “piper” instead of “piper<ato>”. Unfortunately Manilius doesn’t tell us the names of what his fishermen were creating in the Astronomica 5, 667 sqq.
                            To conclude: I think it’s an alluring hypothesis to believe in a real difference between “garum” and “liquamen” but it’s a hypothesis that lacks evidence. As we can deduce from the Price Edict and the Geoponika “liquamen” was a synonym at least of the Greek “garon” and probabely also of the Roman “garum”, as we see in Apic. 7, 13, 1. What we eventually could assume is that “liquamen” in some contexts might have been understood as a specific quality of “garum” (some filtered high quality “garum”) but there is certainly no general distinction. On the amphorae one should expect some trade names, as we use today the word “balsamico” for a specific type of vinegar, while the product class remains “vinegar”. So in our case the product class would be “garum” including more specific appellations like “garum sociorum”, “garum scombri”, “liquamen” etc. At the end “liquamen” was used as a general term (because everyone tends to use only the very best quality), just as it happened in the case of “iecur” which, at the end, was called always “ficatum” and became “fegato”, “foie” etc. in the different modern languages.

                            Best wishes,

                            Robert

                            From: sallygrain@...
                            Sent: Monday, July 16, 2012 7:57 PM
                            To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [Apicius] Garum and Liquamen (again)

                            Hi

                            Your approach to fish sauce is too simplistic I am afraid. Do you not even recognise the fact of a separate blood and viscera sauce different from the whole-fish sauce. They cannot both be garum!, the former black and bloody, the latter pale golden according to Pliny. They have different uses, the garon melan was used at table and so became a fashionable ingredient to discuss in satire, the cooking liquamen was only used in the kitchen by slaves and therefore was not recognised as a separate sauce by the elite. The tituli picti associated with amphorae from Pompeii and Rome reflect the frequent usage of liquamen in the 1st century along side garum. We find garum scombri flos and liquamen flos in contempory sites: they have to mean two separate sauces, there is no way out of that one!

                            sally

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: RM <mailto:apicius%40maierphil.de>;
                            To: Apicius <mailto:Apicius%40yahoogroups.com>;
                            Sent: Sun, 15 Jul 2012 22:24
                            Subject: Re: [Apicius] Garum and Liquamen (again)

                            Just a little correction and an addition: The Geoponika have been written down about 600 years after the Price Edict (not 800!). The word “garum” is found twice within the Apicius recipes, in 7, 13, 1 (with “liquamen” in the same recipe!) and Exc. 29 (according to Vollmer & Milham).

                            Best regards

                            RM

                            From: RM
                            Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 8:36 PM
                            To: mailto:Apicius%40yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [Apicius] Garum and Liquamen (again)

                            Well, we don’t know exactly when the Apicius collection has been compiled but it is quite sure that has been compiled from a base of earlier recipes from which about a third is to be considered to be from an original cookbook probabely written by the same Apicius who has been mentioned in Plinius’ Naturalis Historia (see Brandt: “Untersuchungen zum römischen Kochbuch” in Philologus Suppl. XIX, 3). From the Historia Augusta we learn that Aelius Verus who died in 138 took three books into his bed: Amores by Ovid, Apicius and Martial. We may believe this or not. If we believe it there should have been an edition of Apicius at those times. I didn’t say that Apicius was the only one who ever mentioned “liquamen” – I said he was the only one who used it in this sense in antiquity, Vegetius and Pelagonius lived in very late antiquity, but you wouldn’t find the term before Columella where it signified just a liquid. The question is therefore if your “liquamen”, that may differ from “garum”, was invented after the 1st or 2nd century. There is no doubt that there were many different types and qualities of garum (“... , creveruntque genera ad infinitum, ...” Plin. NH 31, 95). Plinius tells us that Apicius used the so called “garum sociorum” which is just a type of garum. In his Naturalis Historia Plinius mentioned “garum” sometimes – liquamen never. I personally believe that Plinius did know very well what he was writing about in book 31 where he describes the production of “garum” – there he calls it a “liquor” (not “liquamen” of course). What you can find in the Diocletian’s Price Edict are two terms (3.6): “garou geúmatos prwteíou” in Greek, “liquaminis primi” in Latin – there the word “liquamen” appears as a simple translation of “garon” (why do you think it should be “garos”?). The Geoponika, of course, has been compiled 800 years later, using authors of the late antiquity but it is very interesting that in the Geoponika the Latin word “liquamen” appears twice as “tò kaloúmenon likouamen” (=“the so called liquamen”) in the chapter "Garwn piohsis" (20, 46, 1+2).

                            Well, I better stop here because it would end up with some kind of endless discussion. There is – in my opinion – no real evidence for any difference of liquamen and garum, especially if we consider the Price Edict and the Geoponika. I think “liquamen” is just a word that may have been introduced by people like Apicius as a terminus technicus to substitute “garum” in technical language and then spread more and more until Anthimus did only use the term “liquamen” ("Nam liquamen ex omni parte prohibimus."). Even the “so called liquamen” in the Geoponika leads to this direction.

                            Best regards

                            RM
                            From: mailto:sallygrain%40aol.com
                            Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 5:06 PM
                            To: mailto:Apicius%40yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [Apicius] Garum and Liquamen (again)

                            OK

                            garum liquamen and the differences: i recently presented a paper at the British School at Rome to archaeologist of the fish trade in the Med. and therefore what follows is a pressi of what i said to them

                            To start with you talk about Apicius as if he was the sole author and originator of the text when it is clear from our textual analysis that the recipe collection has multiple authors and they are slave cooks rather than a single gourmet. In terms of food at this level there were consumers and producers and it is the producers - the cooks - who we must trust to use the terminology correctly. You cannot argue that Apicius wrote this or that way, logically all the slave cooks wrote liquamen rather than garum for a reason. Equally you cannot place Apicius as a text in the late Empire reflecting a late usage for fish sauce. The terms used in it must reflect the way in which cooks expressed themselves throughout the classical period. The whole argument and justification for Vulgar Latin/Late Latin is based on elite usage. You say garum was the more commonplace term but in fact it is the other way round: Caelius Aurelianus says that the vulgar latin term in every day usage is liquamen. You also state that liquamen only occurs in Apicius but this is not the case. It is found in the Greek agricultural manual The Geoponica - you do all know that Andrew Dalby has recently published a new translation of this dont you ? - where it is a direct translation of the Greek garon but wait ...garon does not necessarily mean garum. It is also found frequently along with garum in the same veterinary recipe collections, particularly Vegetius and Pelagonius.
                            (Pelagonius: liquamen: 9; 11.2; 13;98; 455; 457, garum: 428;13. Vegetius liquamen: 1.10.1; 1.17.10, 16; 2.91.2; 2.108.2; 2.132.4; 4.6.1, garum: 2.28.8; 3.28.10). In Galen it is also clear that two sauces were used: he refers simply to garon many times but only once or twice to garon melan. We have two names and two sauces so there shouldn't have been a problem!

                            (Pelagonius: liquamen: 9; 11.2; 13;98; 455; 457, garum: 428;13. Vegetius liquamen: 1.10.1; 1.17.10, 16; 2.91.2; 2.108.2; 2.132.4; 4.6.1, garum: 2.28.8; 3.28.10). In Galen it is also clear that two sauces were used: he refers simply to garon many times but only once or twice to garon melan. We have two names and two sauces so there shouldn't have been a problem!

                            Apicius - this is the title not the author - is an organic collection of recipes originally compiled, in it's earliest form, in Greek and we consider this to be in the late 1st century AD and possibly even earlier. We see no evidence of a formal publication date, only a finish date which is clearly 5/6th century. The chapter heading are in Greek and there are numerous terms that are not translated but transliterated i.e the Greek endings are converted into Latin endings so oenogaron: the Greek sauce made from the original Greek fish sauce and wine becomes oenogarum. Bare in mind the whole idea of fish sauce was originally Greek

                            So if the cooks dont use garum qua garum one has to ask why? At this point I am pasting from the delivered paper

                            What we first must do is acknowledge the presence of a blood and viscera sauce in the Ancient Mediterranean cuisine that we think of as Roman food. This sauce was a strong black and bloody condiment called in Greek garon melan or haimation that I believe was almost certainly handled by the consumer at table. This sauce was completely separate to the primary product in terms of archaeology (the amphora and fish bones) which was a cooking sauce made from whole-fish with extra viscera which provided enzymes which aided the liquefaction of the muscle tissue.
                            The development and use of the primary product: a fish sauce made with whole fish, initially began in Greece and was a simple sauce made of very small fish (otherwise of no value) and salt used in everyday cooking. It is clear from references in 3rd century new comedy in Athens that this sauce was used with oil and vinegar or wine as a dressing for vegetables and pulses and was not considered particularly elite. My colleague Andrew Dalby has stated it to be a commonplace ingredient and it is noteworthy that Archestratus, the 2nd century Greek gourmet poet writing from Sicily about the best fish does not mention fish sauce at all. Later Galen in the 2nd Century AD is also suggesting the use of garos in dressing of oil and vinegar to accompany simple vegetables. The Apicius recipes collection includes a whole section on vegetables which are also largely accompanied by oil, wine and fish sauce. These simple blended sauces are basically like vinaigrette and are throughout the Apicius recipe text in various forms. The most common was an oenogarum a transliterated term from the Greek. In fact when oenogarum is translated into Latin - it is found in Ps. Gargilius Martialis recipe - it appears as Confectio liquaminis. So there rearly is no garum in Apicius. This means of cause that there is no blood and viscera garum, because as a table sauce it was used on food rather than in the cooking and was also used to make elite oenogarum that may have been blended at table by the gourmet or slaves attendants.

                            This simple Greek whole fish sauce almost certainly came to Rome as garon transliterated into garum but was still this simple liquefied fish sauce. As fish sauce became popular in Rome the elite were concerned with differentiating their foods from everybody else’s and I believe they may have instigated new developments in fish sauce types, one of which was the blood and viscera sauce and one was the use of much larger fish that did have a market value such as mackerel and larger clupeidae and sparidae which could have been used as salted fish.
                            I believe the confusion over the terminology occurred when the elite retained the term garum - the transliterated and now fashionable Greek term to designate their new table sauce made from blood and viscera and the manufacturer, trader , merchant and cook had to coin a new term in Latin to designate the original and commonplace fish sauce, called garon made from whole fish. This was liquamen, the derivation of which is ‘to liquefy so it is aptly titled.
                            We have mentioned the absence of garum from Apicius but we must also mention the absence of the separate Latin blood garum from Diocletians price edict in 301 AD . Here liquamen is equivalent to garos not garum just as we find in the Geoponica. These two absences are of cause the primary reason for the 'single sauce hypothesis' advovated by Curtis. If however you see these absences as evidence that the blood garum was no longer sufficiently popular in the early 4th century AD to warrant its own price on the edict or a mention in the recipes, then the later dominance of liquamen is explained. In fact (a guess) I believe the elite blood viscera garum had a relatively small market in comparison to liquamen and was made to appear more important because of the unusually close view we get of the elite at table in the early empire through satire. It was still made in the late empire as we know Ausonius acquired a jar in the mid 4th century but it seems it was a special delivery and therefore probably not readily available in southern France, and he is also very confused as to what to call it!
                            The original Greek sauce – garos equivalent to liquamen - remained the primary product. We can I think come to see how it was that later sources began to say that garum was liquamen. Caelius Aurelianus says that the vulgar latin term in every day usage is liquamen – I don’t think he means just the poor here - and the elite prefer garum but in principle it’s the same product. if Pliny can fail to see the two sauces when it was popular, when the blood sauce has become rare it would seem quite logical to revert to the earlier usage and make the assumption that everyone has - ancient and modern - that the Greek and Latin meant the same thing'.
                            note: I have not pasted the bit from Pliny but he is the cause of most of the confusion as he conflates both sauces into one. His elite expensive garum is made from viscera and most interpretations of his definition of fish sauce presupposed that he also meant to say small fish as he goes on to suggest that allec was the residue of garum but the blood viscera sauce has no bones or fish paste to make an allec. Only the primary fish sauce generates a fish paste.
                            Hope this helps. It is a theory i will own but a thoroughly rational and logical one according to the archaeologists (and Robert Curtis who has been an adviser), I spoke to and they will be moving forward in analysing amphorae shapes and fish bone residues with the idea that there were two basic types of sauce in the 1st century AD when all the archaeology is most prolific.

                            Sally Grainger

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: RM <mailto:apicius%40maierphil.de>;;
                            To: Apicius <mailto:Apicius%40yahoogroups.com>;;
                            Sent: Sat, 14 Jul 2012 14:05
                            Subject: [Apicius] Garum and Liquamen (again)

                            I am sorry, but are you really sure that there is any evidence for a difference between garum and the Apician “liquamen”? “liquamen” is a word used only by Apicius instead of the more common word “garum”. A good example is the following recipe:
                            “Hydrogarata isicia sic facies: teres piper, ligusticum, pyrethrum minimum, suffundes liquamen. temperas aquam cisterninam, dum inducet, exinanies in caccabo, et tum isicia ad vaporem ignis pones, ut caleat, et sic sorbendum inferes.”
                            This means that to make “hydrogarum” Apicius used “liquamen” et “aqua cisternina”. “liquamen” for Apicius is just a terminus technicus. The word “liquamen” has been used in antiquity just by Columella (who used it in a different context) and once by Flavius Vopiscus Syracusius on Aurelius where it meant “garum”. The hypothesis of a difference between garum and liquamen sounds interesting but I think Apicius just introduced the word “liquamen” as a t.t. in order to substitute the common word “garum”.

                            Best regards

                            RM

                            From: mailto:sallygrain%40aol.com
                            Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2012 1:49 PM
                            To: mailto:Apicius%40yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [Apicius] Recent Cook Out

                            good to know the dishes worked
                            Can i just point out - as i am a bit of a stickler for such things - that the recipes in Apicius use the word liquamen rather than garum because they represent two different sauces - one whole-fish sauce, one a blood viscera fish sauce and I don't want to see an inaccurate ref that puports to be from my book where you have changed liquamen into garum in the belief that they are synonymous - they were not.

                            thanks so much
                            sally

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                          • Donna
                            Colatura di Alici di Cetara is what I used. I couldn t remember the name when I was typing my earlier post ... I just remembered it said anchovie extract on
                            Message 13 of 25 , Jul 18, 2012
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Colatura di Alici di Cetara is what I used. I couldn't remember the name when I was typing my earlier post ... I just remembered it said anchovie extract on the label.

                              Donna.

                              --- In Apicius@yahoogroups.com, "RM" <apicius@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > I prefer the Colatura di Alici which is quite salty (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colatura_di_alici_di_Cetara). The Colatura is still made in many households in the Sorrento region but commercially you will almost find the Colatura di Alici di Cetara â€" and you can buy it from Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00126WGIK/).
                              >
                              > As I pointed out in my other mail, there is no evidence that “liquamen” and “garum” were different. It seems that “liquamen” was just a synonym used in late antiquity for “garum”. As we learn from Pliny the Elder there were many different types of “garum”, of course.
                              >
                              > Best regards
                              >
                              > RM
                              >
                              >
                              > From: Donna
                              > Sent: Monday, July 16, 2012 5:55 PM
                              > To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
                              > Subject: [Apicius] Re: Recent Cook Out
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > No problem ... actually what I used was an anchovie extract sauce that I bought. It was quite tasty, and if I'm reading your other post correctly, is closer to liquamen than garum anyway.
                              >
                              > Thanks,
                              >
                              > Donna
                              >
                              > --- In mailto:Apicius%40yahoogroups.com, sallygrain@ wrote:
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > good to know the dishes worked
                              > > Can i just point out - as i am a bit of a stickler for such things - that the recipes in Apicius use the word liquamen rather than garum because they represent two different sauces - one whole-fish sauce, one a blood viscera fish sauce and I don't want to see an inaccurate ref that puports to be from my book where you have changed liquamen into garum in the belief that they are synonymous - they were not.
                              > >
                              > > thanks so much
                              > > sally
                              > >
                              > > -----Original Message-----
                              > > From: Donna <donnaegreen@>
                              > > To: Apicius <mailto:Apicius%40yahoogroups.com>
                              > > Sent: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 23:53
                              > > Subject: [Apicius] Recent Cook Out
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Last week I went to a five day long SCA event. I camped with a group of cooks and we cooked over fire the whole time. I made a few dishes from Apicius ...
                              > >
                              > > Apicius (Grainger)
                              > > Book 4
                              > > 4.1.1
                              > > Sala cattabia. Pepper, mint, celery seed, dried pennyroyal, cheese, pine nuts, honey, vinegar, garum, yolks of eggs, fresh water. Squeeze dry bread soaked in some posca (dilute sour wine), cow's cheese and cucumer in a small pot, interlayered with pine nuts. Put in finely chopped capers with little chicken livers. Pour the sauce over it. Stand it in cold water and set it forth.
                              > >
                              > > Apicius (Grainger)
                              > > Book 4
                              > > 4.2.24
                              > > Patina of fish. Scale any fish you like, clean and put to one side. Chop dried Ascalonian onions or another type of onion, into a dish and put the fish on top. Add garum and oil, bring it to heat; when it is cooked, place cooked salt fish in the middle; vinegar should be added; sprinkle with pepper and a circle of savory.
                              > >
                              > > Apicius (Grainger)
                              > > Book 4
                              > > 4.5.4
                              > > Hors-d'oeuvre of apricots; take firm, early or undersized fruits, wash them, remove the stone and put them (to cook) in cold water and arrange them in a dish. Pound pepper, dried mint; pour garum; add honey; passum, wine and vinegar; pour over the apricots in the dish, add a little oil and let it come to heat over a gentle fir. When it is simmering, thicken it with starch, sprinkle with pepper and serve.
                              > >
                              > > Apicius (Grainger)
                              > > Book 9
                              > > 9.6 Sauce for Oysters
                              > > Pepper, loveage, egg yolk, vinegar, garum, oil and wine. You can also add honey if you like.
                              > >
                              > > All were very yummy.
                              > >
                              > > Donna
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                            • RM
                              Sorry for the late answer. I wasn’t at home yesterday and therefore not able to sit down and reply immediately. Meanwhile I had a look at some editions of
                              Message 14 of 25 , Jul 18, 2012
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                                Sorry for the late answer. I wasn’t at home yesterday and therefore not able to sit down and reply immediately.
                                Meanwhile I had a look at some editions of the Naturalis Historia – one by Roderich König with German translation, the other the one by John Bostock et al. included in Perseus (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0137%3Abook%3D31%3Achapter%3D44). Essentially those two interpreted the passage as to be referred not only to allex but also to garum (“In process of time, alex has become quite an object of luxury, and the various kinds that are now made are infinite in number. The same, too, with garum, which is now prepared in imitation of the colour of old honied wine, and so pleasantly flavoured as to admit of being taken as a drink.” from: The Natural History. Pliny the Elder. John Bostock, M.D., F.R.S. H.T. Riley, Esq., B.A. London. Taylor and Francis, Red Lion Court, Fleet Street. 1855.). So, at least, I am not hopelessly alone with my interpretation.
                                Certainly there were a lot of different types of garum during and before the 1st century and even after. Martial cites the garum made from the blood of scomber, Plinius said that the most praised garum was indeed made from scomber – this implies that there were other, less praised types of garum – and that intestina and other parts of the fish were used. The fishermen of Manilius seem to use tunny. Horace mentioned garum “de sucis piscis” (Hor. Serm. 2, 8, 46). But those citations are all about garum, not about liquamen because the word “liquamen” was a very new creation in the 1st century that hadn’t made yet its way into the language of Pliny, Horace, Seneca and Martial. Ausonius said that he wasn’t used to and couldn’t say the Latin word (“nec solere nec posse dicere”) for “garum” and that those who knew well old Latin and were disgusted with Greek vocabulary (“scientissimi veterum et Graeca vocabula fastidientes”) hadn’t a Latin word for it. So he called it “liquor iste sociorum” instead – but the normal Latin word at the time of Ausonius was “liquamen” (which wasn’t an old Latin word and Ausonius obviously didn’t like it; “muria” has been mentioned in a similar context by Plinius in 31, 94 – probabely this muria wasn’t just salty water). And this is what we can deduce also from the Price Edict: “garum” is doubtlessly a Greek word, equal to “garon”, and the correct Latin translation is “liquamen” at those times, i. e. at the beginning of the 4th century. As it is a legal text, what we find in the Price Edict is certainly not an arbitrary appellation. So if therein “liquamen” is the translation of “garon” (which is identical to the Latin “garum” which, according to Ausonius, is still a Greek word) why should we believe that there was a fundamental difference between those two? There were certainly varieties that may have had different trade names sometimes but the Geoponika show us that in late antiquity the word “likouamen” could substitute the original “garon” even in Greek. The same, of course in Apic. 7, 13, 1: “ita ut piper cum liquamine teres” is an specification for “in garo piper<ato>” (I prefer this version because the other one is grammatically disputable and we have Petronius using a “garum piperatum” in Sat. 36, 3). Probabely this is an old recipe of the 1st century where someone added the explanation because he was in doubt if the people could understand what “garum piperatum” meant.
                                From the references we have we can derive that the word “liquamen” has been created in the 1st century and was used more and more – perhaps driven by culinary experts like Apicius – until being an equivalent of the word “garum” at the beginning of the 4th century even in legal texts like the Price Edict. It has also been accepted as a synonym of “garon” in Greek as we see from the Geoponika. There are some detailled descriptions of the production of “garum” but only in the Geoponika we find the same for “likouamen” which in that context is to be considered a synonym of “garon”. The word “liquamen” is used in a similar way – i.e. as a translation of “garum” or “garon” – in the Price Edict and in Apic. 7.13.1. Well, we may get much more examplesfor “liquamen” and “garum” out of the epigraphic data base (http://oracle-vm.ku-eichstaett.de:8888/epigr/epigraphik_de) but we wouldn’t find many differences between “liquamen” and “garum” there. We have “liquamen optimum scombri” and “garum flos scombri” and so on. From my point of view it is not possible to clearly distinguish the both, “garum” and “liquamen”, as both appear to be exchangeable in various contexts. They vary in frequency of occurrence: “Garum” was used more frequently before the 2nd century, “liquamen” was used more frequently from the end of the 1st century.

                                Best wishes,

                                Robert


                                From: sallygrain@...
                                Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 2:11 PM
                                To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: Re: [Apicius] Garum and Liquamen (again)



                                Your ref to Pliny is as follows in English for the rest ' then allec became a luxury and its various kinds have come to be inumerable' These refer to enumerable kinds of allec or fish paste made from sea food and not neccesarily the liquid fish sauce derived from one kind of allec. The liquid fish sauce was not enumerable in kind but basically 2 types or 3 if you include muria 1, liquefied whole fish sauce. 2 fish blood and viscera 3. brine from salted fish which corresponds to coluratura die alici from the Naples area as this is made with eviscerated salted anchovy.

                                Ultimately then, you are basing your argument that liquamen is not a synonym for garum but is for garon on Apicius 7.13.1 which is one recipes out of 450+ That garum and liquamen appear in this recipes and only this one suggest to me that the pepper is ground with liquamen and them served with garum at table. Otherwise it makes no sence to use both terms. If they are there because whome ever wanted to translate the one with the other we would at least find this construction - using both terms more often in the rest of the text. The use of garum in the compound terms oenogarum, hydrogarum etc is not relavant as they are transliterated Greek.

                                You almost get it - The generic term only exists in Greek In latin technically there is no generic term but as they are so similar many ancient as well as modern scholars assume that the generic function was transferred to the Latin when it was translated. I will even allow that some ancients used garum when they actually meant liquamen but the manufacturer, trader, merchant and cook never would have got them mixed up - one was black and bloody, dark and strong used in drops while the other was pale brown and used in quantity. There simply had to be a way to distinguish them in trade. The acetabulum little vinegar cup in some recipes (p 83 ff our edition) hold 60ml and was blended with a similar amount of wine and fish sauce. The resulting oenogarum was delicious as i am sure you know. I have made blood garum and it is disgusting in those quantities. Check out http://www.ishiri.jp/en/ for the Japanese squid blood and viscera fish sauce which is pitch black and smells distinctly of blood - iron in fact, a frind who was a nurse told me it smells of digested blood after smelling the human gut in surgery.

                                You do know Ausonius' letter I am sure. He specifically says there is no latin word that he can use instead of garum which he rejects as its Greek in origin and he rejects Greek words. If liquamen was the equivelent of garum in Latin he would have no problem. Instead of cause he fuels our confussion with the use of muria which we cannot get tied up in now.

                                sally

                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: RM <mailto:apicius%40maierphil.de>
                                To: Apicius <mailto:Apicius%40yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 0:15
                                Subject: Re: [Apicius] Garum and Liquamen (again)

                                Hi Sally,

                                the fact that a lot of differt types of “garum” existed is obviously true but it is not my idea. This has already been reported by Pliny in the half sentence I cited before: “... , creveruntque genera ad infinitum, ...” (Plin. NH 31, 95). So why shouldn’t Pliny be right? I am sure that there were not only the two forms of “garum” that you mentioned but a lot of other varieties, too. So why shouldn’t they have been sold eventually under the same name “garum”? In the Price Edict and even in the Geoponika “liquamen” (or in Greek letters “likouamen”) is clearly a synonym / translation of the Greek word garon. The Price Edict has a first and a second quality of garon / liquamen. The name of both qualities was the same but to produce different qualities probabely the ingredients were somewhat different. And then there is also the Apicius recipe 7, 13, 1 garum and liquamen do mean exactly the same: “fungi farnei: elixi, calidi, exsiccati in garo piper<ato> accipiuntur, ita ut piper cum liquamine teres.” – I cited this from my own Apicius edition where it is numbered 7, 15, 1 (ed. Robert Maier, Reclam, Stuttgart 1991), the text of your edition has “piper” instead of “piper<ato>”. Unfortunately Manilius doesn’t tell us the names of what his fishermen were creating in the Astronomica 5, 667 sqq.
                                To conclude: I think it’s an alluring hypothesis to believe in a real difference between “garum” and “liquamen” but it’s a hypothesis that lacks evidence. As we can deduce from the Price Edict and the Geoponika “liquamen” was a synonym at least of the Greek “garon” and probabely also of the Roman “garum”, as we see in Apic. 7, 13, 1. What we eventually could assume is that “liquamen” in some contexts might have been understood as a specific quality of “garum” (some filtered high quality “garum”) but there is certainly no general distinction. On the amphorae one should expect some trade names, as we use today the word “balsamico” for a specific type of vinegar, while the product class remains “vinegar”. So in our case the product class would be “garum” including more specific appellations like “garum sociorum”, “garum scombri”, “liquamen” etc. At the end “liquamen” was used as a general term (because everyone tends to use only the very best quality), just as it happened in the case of “iecur” which, at the end, was called always “ficatum” and became “fegato”, “foie” etc. in the different modern languages.

                                Best wishes,

                                Robert

                                From: mailto:sallygrain%40aol.com
                                Sent: Monday, July 16, 2012 7:57 PM
                                To: mailto:Apicius%40yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: Re: [Apicius] Garum and Liquamen (again)

                                Hi

                                Your approach to fish sauce is too simplistic I am afraid. Do you not even recognise the fact of a separate blood and viscera sauce different from the whole-fish sauce. They cannot both be garum!, the former black and bloody, the latter pale golden according to Pliny. They have different uses, the garon melan was used at table and so became a fashionable ingredient to discuss in satire, the cooking liquamen was only used in the kitchen by slaves and therefore was not recognised as a separate sauce by the elite. The tituli picti associated with amphorae from Pompeii and Rome reflect the frequent usage of liquamen in the 1st century along side garum. We find garum scombri flos and liquamen flos in contempory sites: they have to mean two separate sauces, there is no way out of that one!

                                sally

                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: RM <mailto:apicius%40maierphil.de>;
                                To: Apicius <mailto:Apicius%40yahoogroups.com>;
                                Sent: Sun, 15 Jul 2012 22:24
                                Subject: Re: [Apicius] Garum and Liquamen (again)

                                Just a little correction and an addition: The Geoponika have been written down about 600 years after the Price Edict (not 800!). The word “garum” is found twice within the Apicius recipes, in 7, 13, 1 (with “liquamen” in the same recipe!) and Exc. 29 (according to Vollmer & Milham).

                                Best regards

                                RM

                                From: RM
                                Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 8:36 PM
                                To: mailto:Apicius%40yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: Re: [Apicius] Garum and Liquamen (again)

                                Well, we don’t know exactly when the Apicius collection has been compiled but it is quite sure that has been compiled from a base of earlier recipes from which about a third is to be considered to be from an original cookbook probabely written by the same Apicius who has been mentioned in Plinius’ Naturalis Historia (see Brandt: “Untersuchungen zum römischen Kochbuch” in Philologus Suppl. XIX, 3). From the Historia Augusta we learn that Aelius Verus who died in 138 took three books into his bed: Amores by Ovid, Apicius and Martial. We may believe this or not. If we believe it there should have been an edition of Apicius at those times. I didn’t say that Apicius was the only one who ever mentioned “liquamen” – I said he was the only one who used it in this sense in antiquity, Vegetius and Pelagonius lived in very late antiquity, but you wouldn’t find the term before Columella where it signified just a liquid. The question is therefore if your “liquamen”, that may differ from “garum”, was invented after the 1st or 2nd century. There is no doubt that there were many different types and qualities of garum (“... , creveruntque genera ad infinitum, ...” Plin. NH 31, 95). Plinius tells us that Apicius used the so called “garum sociorum” which is just a type of garum. In his Naturalis Historia Plinius mentioned “garum” sometimes – liquamen never. I personally believe that Plinius did know very well what he was writing about in book 31 where he describes the production of “garum” – there he calls it a “liquor” (not “liquamen” of course). What you can find in the Diocletian’s Price Edict are two terms (3.6): “garou geúmatos prwteíou” in Greek, “liquaminis primi” in Latin – there the word “liquamen” appears as a simple translation of “garon” (why do you think it should be “garos”?). The Geoponika, of course, has been compiled 800 years later, using authors of the late antiquity but it is very interesting that in the Geoponika the Latin word “liquamen” appears twice as “tò kaloúmenon likouamen” (=“the so called liquamen”) in the chapter "Garwn piohsis" (20, 46, 1+2).

                                Well, I better stop here because it would end up with some kind of endless discussion. There is – in my opinion – no real evidence for any difference of liquamen and garum, especially if we consider the Price Edict and the Geoponika. I think “liquamen” is just a word that may have been introduced by people like Apicius as a terminus technicus to substitute “garum” in technical language and then spread more and more until Anthimus did only use the term “liquamen” ("Nam liquamen ex omni parte prohibimus."). Even the “so called liquamen” in the Geoponika leads to this direction.

                                Best regards

                                RM
                                From: mailto:sallygrain%40aol.com
                                Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 5:06 PM
                                To: mailto:Apicius%40yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: Re: [Apicius] Garum and Liquamen (again)

                                OK

                                garum liquamen and the differences: i recently presented a paper at the British School at Rome to archaeologist of the fish trade in the Med. and therefore what follows is a pressi of what i said to them

                                To start with you talk about Apicius as if he was the sole author and originator of the text when it is clear from our textual analysis that the recipe collection has multiple authors and they are slave cooks rather than a single gourmet. In terms of food at this level there were consumers and producers and it is the producers - the cooks - who we must trust to use the terminology correctly. You cannot argue that Apicius wrote this or that way, logically all the slave cooks wrote liquamen rather than garum for a reason. Equally you cannot place Apicius as a text in the late Empire reflecting a late usage for fish sauce. The terms used in it must reflect the way in which cooks expressed themselves throughout the classical period. The whole argument and justification for Vulgar Latin/Late Latin is based on elite usage. You say garum was the more commonplace term but in fact it is the other way round: Caelius Aurelianus says that the vulgar latin term in every day usage is liquamen. You also state that liquamen only occurs in Apicius but this is not the case. It is found in the Greek agricultural manual The Geoponica - you do all know that Andrew Dalby has recently published a new translation of this dont you ? - where it is a direct translation of the Greek garon but wait ...garon does not necessarily mean garum. It is also found frequently along with garum in the same veterinary recipe collections, particularly Vegetius and Pelagonius.
                                (Pelagonius: liquamen: 9; 11.2; 13;98; 455; 457, garum: 428;13. Vegetius liquamen: 1.10.1; 1.17.10, 16; 2.91.2; 2.108.2; 2.132.4; 4.6.1, garum: 2.28.8; 3.28.10). In Galen it is also clear that two sauces were used: he refers simply to garon many times but only once or twice to garon melan. We have two names and two sauces so there shouldn't have been a problem!

                                (Pelagonius: liquamen: 9; 11.2; 13;98; 455; 457, garum: 428;13. Vegetius liquamen: 1.10.1; 1.17.10, 16; 2.91.2; 2.108.2; 2.132.4; 4.6.1, garum: 2.28.8; 3.28.10). In Galen it is also clear that two sauces were used: he refers simply to garon many times but only once or twice to garon melan. We have two names and two sauces so there shouldn't have been a problem!

                                Apicius - this is the title not the author - is an organic collection of recipes originally compiled, in it's earliest form, in Greek and we consider this to be in the late 1st century AD and possibly even earlier. We see no evidence of a formal publication date, only a finish date which is clearly 5/6th century. The chapter heading are in Greek and there are numerous terms that are not translated but transliterated i.e the Greek endings are converted into Latin endings so oenogaron: the Greek sauce made from the original Greek fish sauce and wine becomes oenogarum. Bare in mind the whole idea of fish sauce was originally Greek

                                So if the cooks dont use garum qua garum one has to ask why? At this point I am pasting from the delivered paper

                                What we first must do is acknowledge the presence of a blood and viscera sauce in the Ancient Mediterranean cuisine that we think of as Roman food. This sauce was a strong black and bloody condiment called in Greek garon melan or haimation that I believe was almost certainly handled by the consumer at table. This sauce was completely separate to the primary product in terms of archaeology (the amphora and fish bones) which was a cooking sauce made from whole-fish with extra viscera which provided enzymes which aided the liquefaction of the muscle tissue.
                                The development and use of the primary product: a fish sauce made with whole fish, initially began in Greece and was a simple sauce made of very small fish (otherwise of no value) and salt used in everyday cooking. It is clear from references in 3rd century new comedy in Athens that this sauce was used with oil and vinegar or wine as a dressing for vegetables and pulses and was not considered particularly elite. My colleague Andrew Dalby has stated it to be a commonplace ingredient and it is noteworthy that Archestratus, the 2nd century Greek gourmet poet writing from Sicily about the best fish does not mention fish sauce at all. Later Galen in the 2nd Century AD is also suggesting the use of garos in dressing of oil and vinegar to accompany simple vegetables. The Apicius recipes collection includes a whole section on vegetables which are also largely accompanied by oil, wine and fish sauce. These simple blended sauces are basically like vinaigrette and are throughout the Apicius recipe text in various forms. The most common was an oenogarum a transliterated term from the Greek. In fact when oenogarum is translated into Latin - it is found in Ps. Gargilius Martialis recipe - it appears as Confectio liquaminis. So there rearly is no garum in Apicius. This means of cause that there is no blood and viscera garum, because as a table sauce it was used on food rather than in the cooking and was also used to make elite oenogarum that may have been blended at table by the gourmet or slaves attendants.

                                This simple Greek whole fish sauce almost certainly came to Rome as garon transliterated into garum but was still this simple liquefied fish sauce. As fish sauce became popular in Rome the elite were concerned with differentiating their foods from everybody else’s and I believe they may have instigated new developments in fish sauce types, one of which was the blood and viscera sauce and one was the use of much larger fish that did have a market value such as mackerel and larger clupeidae and sparidae which could have been used as salted fish.
                                I believe the confusion over the terminology occurred when the elite retained the term garum - the transliterated and now fashionable Greek term to designate their new table sauce made from blood and viscera and the manufacturer, trader , merchant and cook had to coin a new term in Latin to designate the original and commonplace fish sauce, called garon made from whole fish. This was liquamen, the derivation of which is ‘to liquefy so it is aptly titled.
                                We have mentioned the absence of garum from Apicius but we must also mention the absence of the separate Latin blood garum from Diocletians price edict in 301 AD . Here liquamen is equivalent to garos not garum just as we find in the Geoponica. These two absences are of cause the primary reason for the 'single sauce hypothesis' advovated by Curtis. If however you see these absences as evidence that the blood garum was no longer sufficiently popular in the early 4th century AD to warrant its own price on the edict or a mention in the recipes, then the later dominance of liquamen is explained. In fact (a guess) I believe the elite blood viscera garum had a relatively small market in comparison to liquamen and was made to appear more important because of the unusually close view we get of the elite at table in the early empire through satire. It was still made in the late empire as we know Ausonius acquired a jar in the mid 4th century but it seems it was a special delivery and therefore probably not readily available in southern France, and he is also very confused as to what to call it!
                                The original Greek sauce – garos equivalent to liquamen - remained the primary product. We can I think come to see how it was that later sources began to say that garum was liquamen. Caelius Aurelianus says that the vulgar latin term in every day usage is liquamen – I don’t think he means just the poor here - and the elite prefer garum but in principle it’s the same product. if Pliny can fail to see the two sauces when it was popular, when the blood sauce has become rare it would seem quite logical to revert to the earlier usage and make the assumption that everyone has - ancient and modern - that the Greek and Latin meant the same thing'.
                                note: I have not pasted the bit from Pliny but he is the cause of most of the confusion as he conflates both sauces into one. His elite expensive garum is made from viscera and most interpretations of his definition of fish sauce presupposed that he also meant to say small fish as he goes on to suggest that allec was the residue of garum but the blood viscera sauce has no bones or fish paste to make an allec. Only the primary fish sauce generates a fish paste.
                                Hope this helps. It is a theory i will own but a thoroughly rational and logical one according to the archaeologists (and Robert Curtis who has been an adviser), I spoke to and they will be moving forward in analysing amphorae shapes and fish bone residues with the idea that there were two basic types of sauce in the 1st century AD when all the archaeology is most prolific.

                                Sally Grainger

                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: RM <mailto:apicius%40maierphil.de>;;
                                To: Apicius <mailto:Apicius%40yahoogroups.com>;;
                                Sent: Sat, 14 Jul 2012 14:05
                                Subject: [Apicius] Garum and Liquamen (again)

                                I am sorry, but are you really sure that there is any evidence for a difference between garum and the Apician “liquamen”? “liquamen” is a word used only by Apicius instead of the more common word “garum”. A good example is the following recipe:
                                “Hydrogarata isicia sic facies: teres piper, ligusticum, pyrethrum minimum, suffundes liquamen. temperas aquam cisterninam, dum inducet, exinanies in caccabo, et tum isicia ad vaporem ignis pones, ut caleat, et sic sorbendum inferes.”
                                This means that to make “hydrogarum” Apicius used “liquamen” et “aqua cisternina”. “liquamen” for Apicius is just a terminus technicus. The word “liquamen” has been used in antiquity just by Columella (who used it in a different context) and once by Flavius Vopiscus Syracusius on Aurelius where it meant “garum”. The hypothesis of a difference between garum and liquamen sounds interesting but I think Apicius just introduced the word “liquamen” as a t.t. in order to substitute the common word “garum”.

                                Best regards

                                RM

                                From: mailto:sallygrain%40aol.com
                                Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2012 1:49 PM
                                To: mailto:Apicius%40yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: Re: [Apicius] Recent Cook Out

                                good to know the dishes worked
                                Can i just point out - as i am a bit of a stickler for such things - that the recipes in Apicius use the word liquamen rather than garum because they represent two different sauces - one whole-fish sauce, one a blood viscera fish sauce and I don't want to see an inaccurate ref that puports to be from my book where you have changed liquamen into garum in the belief that they are synonymous - they were not.

                                thanks so much
                                sally

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                              • sallygrain@aol.com
                                Hi So why shouldn’t Pliny be right? I am sure that there were not only the two forms of “garum” that you mentioned but a lot of other varieties The
                                Message 15 of 25 , Jul 19, 2012
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Hi


                                  'So why shouldn’t Pliny be right? I am sure that there were not only the two forms of “garum” that you mentioned but a lot of other varieties'

                                  The varieties are determined by the species of fish, their quality and origin. The fish bone evidence from ship wrecks which I have studies extensively reveal tiny anchovy or sardine or a mixed variety of small clupiedae and sparidae and they would make one kind - the most basic i think - of fish sauce, while mackerel is common in fish sauce amphorae and the tituli picti make it clear this was the best. Apicius - the gourmet rather than the recipe text - suggest mullet or nd we can assume any other specified and selected fish would make a superior kind. The subsequent sauce would not be named by its fish type but by the process it underwent. To liquefy i.e. liquamen or the juice from them i.e. the blood and viscera sauce.



                                  You still havnt explained to me how the manufacturer, merchant trader and cook was able to distinguish between the blood and viscera sauce and the whole fish variety. You cannot deny the existance of a blood viscera sauce - its in the Geoponica as a distinctly separate entity and it is also defined as 'luxury' Martial 'made from the blood of a still breathing mackerel' afirms its existance. As i said it matters not one jot what the stupid ill informed gourmet thinks he is eating - the manufacturer needs to be able to distinguish between them. You note that liquamen is rare and late but it is also only found in didactic texts written by the practitioner and producer - slave cook, vet, writers of agricultural material. The same kind of people as the manufacturer and merchant who need specific and precise terminology to identify their products. The absence of liquamen in elite literature as I have already said is due to the obvious fact that poets such as Martial etc consume garum at table and do not cook so they dont recognise the existence of a separate cooking sauce which is weaker.


                                  (“In process of time, alex has become quite an object of luxury, and the various kinds that are now made are infinite in number. The same, too, with garum, which is now prepared in imitation of the colour of old honied wine, and so pleasantly flavoured as to admit of being taken as a drink'

                                  This is very poor translation i think - Justine jump in when ever you want! 'The same too' does not sound right at all for secuti garum The loeb has 'for instance' implying a single example ' garum for instance ... rather than suggesting that garum had multiple varieties as well.

                                  'this implies that there were other, less praised types of garum – and that intestina and other parts of the fish were used'

                                  You cannot separate the blood and viscera here and suggest that blood is valuable and viscera not - thats utterly confused. The
                                  most prized type of garum was made from mackerel viscera and blood with salt and nothing else.

                                  'but the normal Latin word at the time of Ausonius was “liquamen” (which wasn’t an old Latin word and Ausonius obviously didn’t like it'
                                  You simply cannot say this, Its the worst kind of special pleading when your argument fails you. Ausonius didnt use the term liquamen because he didn't receive liquamen, he received garum He calls it liquor iste sociorum. 'that liquor of our allies' which directly links in with Martials' 'made from the blood of a still breathing mackerel' which he also calls garum sociorum, the most expensive kind of garum according to Pliny too, when garum is a blood/viscera sauce. Garum can also be cheap and cheerful and made from any old bit of fish blood and viscera.

                                  The crucial thing about the epigraphic evidence which you have failed to recognise is that in Pompeii there are amphorae with garum and there are amphorae with liquamen labels in the same context. This is indisputable evidence, that makes it absolutely clear, without a doubt, that for the people who made and bought fish sauce in Pompeii in 69 AD garum and liquamen represented different products. By the 4th century as i have already said the blood viscera sauce was insufficiently popular to warrant attention - in Apicius or the price edict and as a result the differences had ceased to mean anything which is why they appear to be the same in the late Empire

                                  all the best sally

                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: RM <apicius@...>
                                  To: Apicius <Apicius@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Thu, 19 Jul 2012 0:18
                                  Subject: Re: [Apicius] Garum and Liquamen (again)




                                  Sorry for the late answer. I wasn’t at home yesterday and therefore not able to sit down and reply immediately.
                                  Meanwhile I had a look at some editions of the Naturalis Historia – one by Roderich König with German translation, the other the one by John Bostock et al. included in Perseus (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0137%3Abook%3D31%3Achapter%3D44). Essentially those two interpreted the passage as to be referred not only to allex but also to garum (“In process of time, alex has become quite an object of luxury, and the various kinds that are now made are infinite in number. The same, too, with garum, which is now prepared in imitation of the colour of old honied wine, and so pleasantly flavoured as to admit of being taken as a drink.” from: The Natural History. Pliny the Elder. John Bostock, M.D., F.R.S. H.T. Riley, Esq., B.A. London. Taylor and Francis, Red Lion Court, Fleet Street. 1855.). So, at least, I am not hopelessly alone with my interpretation.
                                  Certainly there were a lot of different types of garum during and before the 1st century and even after. Martial cites the garum made from the blood of scomber, Plinius said that the most praised garum was indeed made from scomber – this implies that there were other, less praised types of garum – and that intestina and other parts of the fish were used. The fishermen of Manilius seem to use tunny. Horace mentioned garum “de sucis piscis” (Hor. Serm. 2, 8, 46). But those citations are all about garum, not about liquamen because the word “liquamen” was a very new creation in the 1st century that hadn’t made yet its way into the language of Pliny, Horace, Seneca and Martial. Ausonius said that he wasn’t used to and couldn’t say the Latin word (“nec solere nec posse dicere”) for “garum” and that those who knew well old Latin and were disgusted with Greek vocabulary (“scientissimi veterum et Graeca vocabula fastidientes”) hadn’t a Latin word for it. So he called it “liquor iste sociorum” instead – but the normal Latin word at the time of Ausonius was “liquamen” (which wasn’t an old Latin word and Ausonius obviously didn’t like it; “muria” has been mentioned in a similar context by Plinius in 31, 94 – probabely this muria wasn’t just salty water). And this is what we can deduce also from the Price Edict: “garum” is doubtlessly a Greek word, equal to “garon”, and the correct Latin translation is “liquamen” at those times, i. e. at the beginning of the 4th century. As it is a legal text, what we find in the Price Edict is certainly not an arbitrary appellation. So if therein “liquamen” is the translation of “garon” (which is identical to the Latin “garum” which, according to Ausonius, is still a Greek word) why should we believe that there was a fundamental difference between those two? There were certainly varieties that may have had different trade names sometimes but the Geoponika show us that in late antiquity the word “likouamen” could substitute the original “garon” even in Greek. The same, of course in Apic. 7, 13, 1: “ita ut piper cum liquamine teres” is an specification for “in garo piper<ato>” (I prefer this version because the other one is grammatically disputable and we have Petronius using a “garum piperatum” in Sat. 36, 3). Probabely this is an old recipe of the 1st century where someone added the explanation because he was in doubt if the people could understand what “garum piperatum” meant.
                                  From the references we have we can derive that the word “liquamen” has been created in the 1st century and was used more and more – perhaps driven by culinary experts like Apicius – until being an equivalent of the word “garum” at the beginning of the 4th century even in legal texts like the Price Edict. It has also been accepted as a synonym of “garon” in Greek as we see from the Geoponika. There are some detailled descriptions of the production of “garum” but only in the Geoponika we find the same for “likouamen” which in that context is to be considered a synonym of “garon”. The word “liquamen” is used in a similar way – i.e. as a translation of “garum” or “garon” – in the Price Edict and in Apic. 7.13.1. Well, we may get much more examplesfor “liquamen” and “garum” out of the epigraphic data base (http://oracle-vm.ku-eichstaett.de:8888/epigr/epigraphik_de) but we wouldn’t find many differences between “liquamen” and “garum” there. We have “liquamen optimum scombri” and “garum flos scombri” and so on. From my point of view it is not possible to clearly distinguish the both, “garum” and “liquamen”, as both appear to be exchangeable in various contexts. They vary in frequency of occurrence: “Garum” was used more frequently before the 2nd century, “liquamen” was used more frequently from the end of the 1st century.

                                  Best wishes,

                                  Robert

                                  From: sallygrain@...
                                  Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 2:11 PM
                                  To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [Apicius] Garum and Liquamen (again)

                                  Your ref to Pliny is as follows in English for the rest ' then allec became a luxury and its various kinds have come to be inumerable' These refer to enumerable kinds of allec or fish paste made from sea food and not neccesarily the liquid fish sauce derived from one kind of allec. The liquid fish sauce was not enumerable in kind but basically 2 types or 3 if you include muria 1, liquefied whole fish sauce. 2 fish blood and viscera 3. brine from salted fish which corresponds to coluratura die alici from the Naples area as this is made with eviscerated salted anchovy.

                                  Ultimately then, you are basing your argument that liquamen is not a synonym for garum but is for garon on Apicius 7.13.1 which is one recipes out of 450+ That garum and liquamen appear in this recipes and only this one suggest to me that the pepper is ground with liquamen and them served with garum at table. Otherwise it makes no sence to use both terms. If they are there because whome ever wanted to translate the one with the other we would at least find this construction - using both terms more often in the rest of the text. The use of garum in the compound terms oenogarum, hydrogarum etc is not relavant as they are transliterated Greek.

                                  You almost get it - The generic term only exists in Greek In latin technically there is no generic term but as they are so similar many ancient as well as modern scholars assume that the generic function was transferred to the Latin when it was translated. I will even allow that some ancients used garum when they actually meant liquamen but the manufacturer, trader, merchant and cook never would have got them mixed up - one was black and bloody, dark and strong used in drops while the other was pale brown and used in quantity. There simply had to be a way to distinguish them in trade. The acetabulum little vinegar cup in some recipes (p 83 ff our edition) hold 60ml and was blended with a similar amount of wine and fish sauce. The resulting oenogarum was delicious as i am sure you know. I have made blood garum and it is disgusting in those quantities. Check out http://www.ishiri.jp/en/ for the Japanese squid blood and viscera fish sauce which is pitch black and smells distinctly of blood - iron in fact, a frind who was a nurse told me it smells of digested blood after smelling the human gut in surgery.

                                  You do know Ausonius' letter I am sure. He specifically says there is no latin word that he can use instead of garum which he rejects as its Greek in origin and he rejects Greek words. If liquamen was the equivelent of garum in Latin he would have no problem. Instead of cause he fuels our confussion with the use of muria which we cannot get tied up in now.

                                  sally

                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: RM <mailto:apicius%40maierphil.de>;
                                  To: Apicius <mailto:Apicius%40yahoogroups.com>;
                                  Sent: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 0:15
                                  Subject: Re: [Apicius] Garum and Liquamen (again)

                                  Hi Sally,

                                  the fact that a lot of differt types of “garum” existed is obviously true but it is not my idea. This has already been reported by Pliny in the half sentence I cited before: “... , creveruntque genera ad infinitum, ...” (Plin. NH 31, 95). So why shouldn’t Pliny be right? I am sure that there were not only the two forms of “garum” that you mentioned but a lot of other varieties, too. So why shouldn’t they have been sold eventually under the same name “garum”? In the Price Edict and even in the Geoponika “liquamen” (or in Greek letters “likouamen”) is clearly a synonym / translation of the Greek word garon. The Price Edict has a first and a second quality of garon / liquamen. The name of both qualities was the same but to produce different qualities probabely the ingredients were somewhat different. And then there is also the Apicius recipe 7, 13, 1 garum and liquamen do mean exactly the same: “fungi farnei: elixi, calidi, exsiccati in garo piper<ato> accipiuntur, ita ut piper cum liquamine teres.” – I cited this from my own Apicius edition where it is numbered 7, 15, 1 (ed. Robert Maier, Reclam, Stuttgart 1991), the text of your edition has “piper” instead of “piper<ato>”. Unfortunately Manilius doesn’t tell us the names of what his fishermen were creating in the Astronomica 5, 667 sqq.
                                  To conclude: I think it’s an alluring hypothesis to believe in a real difference between “garum” and “liquamen” but it’s a hypothesis that lacks evidence. As we can deduce from the Price Edict and the Geoponika “liquamen” was a synonym at least of the Greek “garon” and probabely also of the Roman “garum”, as we see in Apic. 7, 13, 1. What we eventually could assume is that “liquamen” in some contexts might have been understood as a specific quality of “garum” (some filtered high quality “garum”) but there is certainly no general distinction. On the amphorae one should expect some trade names, as we use today the word “balsamico” for a specific type of vinegar, while the product class remains “vinegar”. So in our case the product class would be “garum” including more specific appellations like “garum sociorum”, “garum scombri”, “liquamen” etc. At the end “liquamen” was used as a general term (because everyone tends to use only the very best quality), just as it happened in the case of “iecur” which, at the end, was called always “ficatum” and became “fegato”, “foie” etc. in the different modern languages.

                                  Best wishes,

                                  Robert

                                  From: mailto:sallygrain%40aol.com
                                  Sent: Monday, July 16, 2012 7:57 PM
                                  To: mailto:Apicius%40yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [Apicius] Garum and Liquamen (again)

                                  Hi

                                  Your approach to fish sauce is too simplistic I am afraid. Do you not even recognise the fact of a separate blood and viscera sauce different from the whole-fish sauce. They cannot both be garum!, the former black and bloody, the latter pale golden according to Pliny. They have different uses, the garon melan was used at table and so became a fashionable ingredient to discuss in satire, the cooking liquamen was only used in the kitchen by slaves and therefore was not recognised as a separate sauce by the elite. The tituli picti associated with amphorae from Pompeii and Rome reflect the frequent usage of liquamen in the 1st century along side garum. We find garum scombri flos and liquamen flos in contempory sites: they have to mean two separate sauces, there is no way out of that one!

                                  sally

                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: RM <mailto:apicius%40maierphil.de>;;
                                  To: Apicius <mailto:Apicius%40yahoogroups.com>;;
                                  Sent: Sun, 15 Jul 2012 22:24
                                  Subject: Re: [Apicius] Garum and Liquamen (again)

                                  Just a little correction and an addition: The Geoponika have been written down about 600 years after the Price Edict (not 800!). The word “garum” is found twice within the Apicius recipes, in 7, 13, 1 (with “liquamen” in the same recipe!) and Exc. 29 (according to Vollmer & Milham).

                                  Best regards

                                  RM

                                  From: RM
                                  Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 8:36 PM
                                  To: mailto:Apicius%40yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [Apicius] Garum and Liquamen (again)

                                  Well, we don’t know exactly when the Apicius collection has been compiled but it is quite sure that has been compiled from a base of earlier recipes from which about a third is to be considered to be from an original cookbook probabely written by the same Apicius who has been mentioned in Plinius’ Naturalis Historia (see Brandt: “Untersuchungen zum römischen Kochbuch” in Philologus Suppl. XIX, 3). From the Historia Augusta we learn that Aelius Verus who died in 138 took three books into his bed: Amores by Ovid, Apicius and Martial. We may believe this or not. If we believe it there should have been an edition of Apicius at those times. I didn’t say that Apicius was the only one who ever mentioned “liquamen” – I said he was the only one who used it in this sense in antiquity, Vegetius and Pelagonius lived in very late antiquity, but you wouldn’t find the term before Columella where it signified just a liquid. The question is therefore if your “liquamen”, that may differ from “garum”, was invented after the 1st or 2nd century. There is no doubt that there were many different types and qualities of garum (“... , creveruntque genera ad infinitum, ...” Plin. NH 31, 95). Plinius tells us that Apicius used the so called “garum sociorum” which is just a type of garum. In his Naturalis Historia Plinius mentioned “garum” sometimes – liquamen never. I personally believe that Plinius did know very well what he was writing about in book 31 where he describes the production of “garum” – there he calls it a “liquor” (not “liquamen” of course). What you can find in the Diocletian’s Price Edict are two terms (3.6): “garou geúmatos prwteíou” in Greek, “liquaminis primi” in Latin – there the word “liquamen” appears as a simple translation of “garon” (why do you think it should be “garos”?). The Geoponika, of course, has been compiled 800 years later, using authors of the late antiquity but it is very interesting that in the Geoponika the Latin word “liquamen” appears twice as “tò kaloúmenon likouamen” (=“the so called liquamen”) in the chapter "Garwn piohsis" (20, 46, 1+2).

                                  Well, I better stop here because it would end up with some kind of endless discussion. There is – in my opinion – no real evidence for any difference of liquamen and garum, especially if we consider the Price Edict and the Geoponika. I think “liquamen” is just a word that may have been introduced by people like Apicius as a terminus technicus to substitute “garum” in technical language and then spread more and more until Anthimus did only use the term “liquamen” ("Nam liquamen ex omni parte prohibimus."). Even the “so called liquamen” in the Geoponika leads to this direction.

                                  Best regards

                                  RM
                                  From: mailto:sallygrain%40aol.com
                                  Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 5:06 PM
                                  To: mailto:Apicius%40yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [Apicius] Garum and Liquamen (again)

                                  OK

                                  garum liquamen and the differences: i recently presented a paper at the British School at Rome to archaeologist of the fish trade in the Med. and therefore what follows is a pressi of what i said to them

                                  To start with you talk about Apicius as if he was the sole author and originator of the text when it is clear from our textual analysis that the recipe collection has multiple authors and they are slave cooks rather than a single gourmet. In terms of food at this level there were consumers and producers and it is the producers - the cooks - who we must trust to use the terminology correctly. You cannot argue that Apicius wrote this or that way, logically all the slave cooks wrote liquamen rather than garum for a reason. Equally you cannot place Apicius as a text in the late Empire reflecting a late usage for fish sauce. The terms used in it must reflect the way in which cooks expressed themselves throughout the classical period. The whole argument and justification for Vulgar Latin/Late Latin is based on elite usage. You say garum was the more commonplace term but in fact it is the other way round: Caelius Aurelianus says that the vulgar latin term in every day usage is liquamen. You also state that liquamen only occurs in Apicius but this is not the case. It is found in the Greek agricultural manual The Geoponica - you do all know that Andrew Dalby has recently published a new translation of this dont you ? - where it is a direct translation of the Greek garon but wait ...garon does not necessarily mean garum. It is also found frequently along with garum in the same veterinary recipe collections, particularly Vegetius and Pelagonius.
                                  (Pelagonius: liquamen: 9; 11.2; 13;98; 455; 457, garum: 428;13. Vegetius liquamen: 1.10.1; 1.17.10, 16; 2.91.2; 2.108.2; 2.132.4; 4.6.1, garum: 2.28.8; 3.28.10). In Galen it is also clear that two sauces were used: he refers simply to garon many times but only once or twice to garon melan. We have two names and two sauces so there shouldn't have been a problem!

                                  (Pelagonius: liquamen: 9; 11.2; 13;98; 455; 457, garum: 428;13. Vegetius liquamen: 1.10.1; 1.17.10, 16; 2.91.2; 2.108.2; 2.132.4; 4.6.1, garum: 2.28.8; 3.28.10). In Galen it is also clear that two sauces were used: he refers simply to garon many times but only once or twice to garon melan. We have two names and two sauces so there shouldn't have been a problem!

                                  Apicius - this is the title not the author - is an organic collection of recipes originally compiled, in it's earliest form, in Greek and we consider this to be in the late 1st century AD and possibly even earlier. We see no evidence of a formal publication date, only a finish date which is clearly 5/6th century. The chapter heading are in Greek and there are numerous terms that are not translated but transliterated i.e the Greek endings are converted into Latin endings so oenogaron: the Greek sauce made from the original Greek fish sauce and wine becomes oenogarum. Bare in mind the whole idea of fish sauce was originally Greek

                                  So if the cooks dont use garum qua garum one has to ask why? At this point I am pasting from the delivered paper

                                  What we first must do is acknowledge the presence of a blood and viscera sauce in the Ancient Mediterranean cuisine that we think of as Roman food. This sauce was a strong black and bloody condiment called in Greek garon melan or haimation that I believe was almost certainly handled by the consumer at table. This sauce was completely separate to the primary product in terms of archaeology (the amphora and fish bones) which was a cooking sauce made from whole-fish with extra viscera which provided enzymes which aided the liquefaction of the muscle tissue.
                                  The development and use of the primary product: a fish sauce made with whole fish, initially began in Greece and was a simple sauce made of very small fish (otherwise of no value) and salt used in everyday cooking. It is clear from references in 3rd century new comedy in Athens that this sauce was used with oil and vinegar or wine as a dressing for vegetables and pulses and was not considered particularly elite. My colleague Andrew Dalby has stated it to be a commonplace ingredient and it is noteworthy that Archestratus, the 2nd century Greek gourmet poet writing from Sicily about the best fish does not mention fish sauce at all. Later Galen in the 2nd Century AD is also suggesting the use of garos in dressing of oil and vinegar to accompany simple vegetables. The Apicius recipes collection includes a whole section on vegetables which are also largely accompanied by oil, wine and fish sauce. These simple blended sauces are basically like vinaigrette and are throughout the Apicius recipe text in various forms. The most common was an oenogarum a transliterated term from the Greek. In fact when oenogarum is translated into Latin - it is found in Ps. Gargilius Martialis recipe - it appears as Confectio liquaminis. So there rearly is no garum in Apicius. This means of cause that there is no blood and viscera garum, because as a table sauce it was used on food rather than in the cooking and was also used to make elite oenogarum that may have been blended at table by the gourmet or slaves attendants.

                                  This simple Greek whole fish sauce almost certainly came to Rome as garon transliterated into garum but was still this simple liquefied fish sauce. As fish sauce became popular in Rome the elite were concerned with differentiating their foods from everybody else’s and I believe they may have instigated new developments in fish sauce types, one of which was the blood and viscera sauce and one was the use of much larger fish that did have a market value such as mackerel and larger clupeidae and sparidae which could have been used as salted fish.
                                  I believe the confusion over the terminology occurred when the elite retained the term garum - the transliterated and now fashionable Greek term to designate their new table sauce made from blood and viscera and the manufacturer, trader , merchant and cook had to coin a new term in Latin to designate the original and commonplace fish sauce, called garon made from whole fish. This was liquamen, the derivation of which is ‘to liquefy so it is aptly titled.
                                  We have mentioned the absence of garum from Apicius but we must also mention the absence of the separate Latin blood garum from Diocletians price edict in 301 AD . Here liquamen is equivalent to garos not garum just as we find in the Geoponica. These two absences are of cause the primary reason for the 'single sauce hypothesis' advovated by Curtis. If however you see these absences as evidence that the blood garum was no longer sufficiently popular in the early 4th century AD to warrant its own price on the edict or a mention in the recipes, then the later dominance of liquamen is explained. In fact (a guess) I believe the elite blood viscera garum had a relatively small market in comparison to liquamen and was made to appear more important because of the unusually close view we get of the elite at table in the early empire through satire. It was still made in the late empire as we know Ausonius acquired a jar in the mid 4th century but it seems it was a special delivery and therefore probably not readily available in southern France, and he is also very confused as to what to call it!
                                  The original Greek sauce – garos equivalent to liquamen - remained the primary product. We can I think come to see how it was that later sources began to say that garum was liquamen. Caelius Aurelianus says that the vulgar latin term in every day usage is liquamen – I don’t think he means just the poor here - and the elite prefer garum but in principle it’s the same product. if Pliny can fail to see the two sauces when it was popular, when the blood sauce has become rare it would seem quite logical to revert to the earlier usage and make the assumption that everyone has - ancient and modern - that the Greek and Latin meant the same thing'.
                                  note: I have not pasted the bit from Pliny but he is the cause of most of the confusion as he conflates both sauces into one. His elite expensive garum is made from viscera and most interpretations of his definition of fish sauce presupposed that he also meant to say small fish as he goes on to suggest that allec was the residue of garum but the blood viscera sauce has no bones or fish paste to make an allec. Only the primary fish sauce generates a fish paste.
                                  Hope this helps. It is a theory i will own but a thoroughly rational and logical one according to the archaeologists (and Robert Curtis who has been an adviser), I spoke to and they will be moving forward in analysing amphorae shapes and fish bone residues with the idea that there were two basic types of sauce in the 1st century AD when all the archaeology is most prolific.

                                  Sally Grainger

                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: RM <mailto:apicius%40maierphil.de>;;;
                                  To: Apicius <mailto:Apicius%40yahoogroups.com>;;;
                                  Sent: Sat, 14 Jul 2012 14:05
                                  Subject: [Apicius] Garum and Liquamen (again)

                                  I am sorry, but are you really sure that there is any evidence for a difference between garum and the Apician “liquamen”? “liquamen” is a word used only by Apicius instead of the more common word “garum”. A good example is the following recipe:
                                  “Hydrogarata isicia sic facies: teres piper, ligusticum, pyrethrum minimum, suffundes liquamen. temperas aquam cisterninam, dum inducet, exinanies in caccabo, et tum isicia ad vaporem ignis pones, ut caleat, et sic sorbendum inferes.”
                                  This means that to make “hydrogarum” Apicius used “liquamen” et “aqua cisternina”. “liquamen” for Apicius is just a terminus technicus. The word “liquamen” has been used in antiquity just by Columella (who used it in a different context) and once by Flavius Vopiscus Syracusius on Aurelius where it meant “garum”. The hypothesis of a difference between garum and liquamen sounds interesting but I think Apicius just introduced the word “liquamen” as a t.t. in order to substitute the common word “garum”.

                                  Best regards

                                  RM

                                  From: mailto:sallygrain%40aol.com
                                  Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2012 1:49 PM
                                  To: mailto:Apicius%40yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [Apicius] Recent Cook Out

                                  good to know the dishes worked
                                  Can i just point out - as i am a bit of a stickler for such things - that the recipes in Apicius use the word liquamen rather than garum because they represent two different sauces - one whole-fish sauce, one a blood viscera fish sauce and I don't want to see an inaccurate ref that puports to be from my book where you have changed liquamen into garum in the belief that they are synonymous - they were not.

                                  thanks so much
                                  sally

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                                • Justin Mansfield
                                  ... I have been summoned. I just hope you re pronouncing Justine as three syllables! ;) Sorry, I haven t had time to follow this debate in any detail: I m
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Jul 20, 2012
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    >
                                    > Justine jump in when ever you want!


                                    I have been summoned. I just hope you're pronouncing "Justine" as three
                                    syllables! ;)

                                    Sorry, I haven't had time to follow this debate in any detail: I'm rushing
                                    around in my final days before the Conventiculum Latinum Lexintoniense,
                                    which is of course when I have my annual Cena Romana (Incidentally I tried
                                    making Columella's recipe for pickled purslane... but I suspect I did it
                                    wrong. We'll see how it tastes when I open the jar) Not much focus to spare
                                    on so detailed an argument.

                                    This just gets worse when I look at the text:

                                    (�In process of time, alex has become quite an object of luxury, and the
                                    > various kinds that are now made are infinite in number. The same, too, with
                                    > garum, which is now prepared in imitation of the colour of old honied wine,
                                    > and so pleasantly flavoured as to admit of being taken as a drink'
                                    > This is very poor translation i think - Justine jump in when ever you
                                    > want! 'The same too' does not sound right at all for secuti garum The loeb
                                    > has 'for instance' implying a single example ' garum for instance ...
                                    > rather than suggesting that garum had multiple varieties as well.


                                    Oy vey. My first instinct is indeed "for instance," but yeah, given that
                                    its most basic meaning is "just as," I can see how "the same, too" is a
                                    possibility. But as is so often the case with Pliny it's not so much a
                                    question of what the word could or could not mean, the real problem is
                                    trying to follow his stream of thought. For starters:

                                    *Vitium huius est allex atque inperfecta nec colata faex. coepit tamen et
                                    privatim ex inutili pisciculo minimoque confici. *
                                    Its blemish and unfinished, unstrained dregs is *allex*. But it was
                                    originally made specifically from useless, tiny finish.

                                    What was originally made this way? On first reading it sounds like he means
                                    *allex*. But I'm pretty sure the topic of this entire paragraph is fish
                                    sauce in general (the *huius* of the first sentence), not the *vitium *thereof.
                                    In other words, the "it" in the second sentence refers back not to *allex* but
                                    rather the "Its" of the first sentence! I mean, why would he be talking
                                    about what kind of fish they use to make lees with in *Forum Iulii*, right?
                                    You don't set out to make *faex*, *faex* is a byproduct of something else.

                                    If you still think those sentences are only about *allex*, then yeah, he
                                    must be saying something like "[*allex*] became a luxury, and its varieties
                                    grew to be innumerable, *just as* [happened with] *garum*, which
                                    has [nowadays] been diluted to the color of old *mulsum*, and such
                                    sweetness that you could drink it."

                                    But if you accept that he's talking about fish sauce in general, he seems
                                    to be saying "[fish sauce] became a luxury, and its varieties grew to be
                                    innumerable, *for instance* [the variety of] *garum* which is diluted to
                                    the color of old *mulsum*, and such sweetness that you could drink it."

                                    It seems to me pretty clear that the latter translation is preferable, and
                                    this jibes well with my point that the rest of the paragraph makes better
                                    sense if we assume the sentence about *allex* was essentially a
                                    parenthetical gloss.

                                    I tell you, every time I read Pliny the Elder something like this happens:
                                    every sentence in the paragraph could be interpreted in multiple ways, and
                                    the key is finding the thread so that it all makes sense.

                                    As I said, I'm very distracted right now, so please forgive any sloppiness,
                                    or inattention to what has already been said.

                                    Valete

                                    On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 12:06 PM, <sallygrain@...> wrote:

                                    > **
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Hi
                                    >
                                    > 'So why shouldn�t Pliny be right? I am sure that there were not only the
                                    > two forms of �garum� that you mentioned but a lot of other varieties'
                                    >
                                    > The varieties are determined by the species of fish, their quality and
                                    > origin. The fish bone evidence from ship wrecks which I have studies
                                    > extensively reveal tiny anchovy or sardine or a mixed variety of small
                                    > clupiedae and sparidae and they would make one kind - the most basic i
                                    > think - of fish sauce, while mackerel is common in fish sauce amphorae and
                                    > the tituli picti make it clear this was the best. Apicius - the gourmet
                                    > rather than the recipe text - suggest mullet or nd we can assume any other
                                    > specified and selected fish would make a superior kind. The subsequent
                                    > sauce would not be named by its fish type but by the process it underwent.
                                    > To liquefy i.e. liquamen or the juice from them i.e. the blood and viscera
                                    > sauce.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > You still havnt explained to me how the manufacturer, merchant trader and
                                    > cook was able to distinguish between the blood and viscera sauce and the
                                    > whole fish variety. You cannot deny the existance of a blood viscera sauce
                                    > - its in the Geoponica as a distinctly separate entity and it is also
                                    > defined as 'luxury' Martial 'made from the blood of a still breathing
                                    > mackerel' afirms its existance. As i said it matters not one jot what the
                                    > stupid ill informed gourmet thinks he is eating - the manufacturer needs to
                                    > be able to distinguish between them. You note that liquamen is rare and
                                    > late but it is also only found in didactic texts written by the
                                    > practitioner and producer - slave cook, vet, writers of agricultural
                                    > material. The same kind of people as the manufacturer and merchant who need
                                    > specific and precise terminology to identify their products. The absence of
                                    > liquamen in elite literature as I have already said is due to the obvious
                                    > fact that poets such as Martial etc consume garum at table and do not cook
                                    > so they dont recognise the existence of a separate cooking sauce which is
                                    > weaker.
                                    >
                                    > (�In process of time, alex has become quite an object of luxury, and the
                                    > various kinds that are now made are infinite in number. The same, too, with
                                    > garum, which is now prepared in imitation of the colour of old honied wine,
                                    > and so pleasantly flavoured as to admit of being taken as a drink'
                                    >
                                    > This is very poor translation i think - Justine jump in when ever you
                                    > want! 'The same too' does not sound right at all for secuti garum The loeb
                                    > has 'for instance' implying a single example ' garum for instance ...
                                    > rather than suggesting that garum had multiple varieties as well.
                                    >
                                    > 'this implies that there were other, less praised types of garum � and
                                    > that intestina and other parts of the fish were used'
                                    >
                                    > You cannot separate the blood and viscera here and suggest that blood is
                                    > valuable and viscera not - thats utterly confused. The
                                    > most prized type of garum was made from mackerel viscera and blood with
                                    > salt and nothing else.
                                    >
                                    > 'but the normal Latin word at the time of Ausonius was �liquamen� (which
                                    > wasn�t an old Latin word and Ausonius obviously didn�t like it'
                                    > You simply cannot say this, Its the worst kind of special pleading when
                                    > your argument fails you. Ausonius didnt use the term liquamen because he
                                    > didn't receive liquamen, he received garum He calls it liquor iste
                                    > sociorum. 'that liquor of our allies' which directly links in with
                                    > Martials' 'made from the blood of a still breathing mackerel' which he also
                                    > calls garum sociorum, the most expensive kind of garum according to Pliny
                                    > too, when garum is a blood/viscera sauce. Garum can also be cheap and
                                    > cheerful and made from any old bit of fish blood and viscera.
                                    >
                                    > The crucial thing about the epigraphic evidence which you have failed to
                                    > recognise is that in Pompeii there are amphorae with garum and there are
                                    > amphorae with liquamen labels in the same context. This is indisputable
                                    > evidence, that makes it absolutely clear, without a doubt, that for the
                                    > people who made and bought fish sauce in Pompeii in 69 AD garum and
                                    > liquamen represented different products. By the 4th century as i have
                                    > already said the blood viscera sauce was insufficiently popular to warrant
                                    > attention - in Apicius or the price edict and as a result the differences
                                    > had ceased to mean anything which is why they appear to be the same in the
                                    > late Empire
                                    >
                                    > all the best sally
                                    >
                                    > -----Original Message-----
                                    > From: RM <apicius@...>
                                    > To: Apicius <Apicius@yahoogroups.com>
                                    > Sent: Thu, 19 Jul 2012 0:18
                                    > Subject: Re: [Apicius] Garum and Liquamen (again)
                                    >
                                    > Sorry for the late answer. I wasn�t at home yesterday and therefore not
                                    > able to sit down and reply immediately.
                                    > Meanwhile I had a look at some editions of the Naturalis Historia � one by
                                    > Roderich K�nig with German translation, the other the one by John Bostock
                                    > et al. included in Perseus (
                                    > http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0137%3Abook%3D31%3Achapter%3D44).
                                    > Essentially those two interpreted the passage as to be referred not only to
                                    > allex but also to garum (�In process of time, alex has become quite an
                                    > object of luxury, and the various kinds that are now made are infinite in
                                    > number. The same, too, with garum, which is now prepared in imitation of
                                    > the colour of old honied wine, and so pleasantly flavoured as to admit of
                                    > being taken as a drink.� from: The Natural History. Pliny the Elder. John
                                    > Bostock, M.D., F.R.S. H.T. Riley, Esq., B.A. London. Taylor and Francis,
                                    > Red Lion Court, Fleet Street. 1855.). So, at least, I am not hopelessly
                                    > alone with my interpretation.
                                    > Certainly there were a lot of different types of garum during and before
                                    > the 1st century and even after. Martial cites the garum made from the blood
                                    > of scomber, Plinius said that the most praised garum was indeed made from
                                    > scomber � this implies that there were other, less praised types of garum �
                                    > and that intestina and other parts of the fish were used. The fishermen of
                                    > Manilius seem to use tunny. Horace mentioned garum �de sucis piscis� (Hor.
                                    > Serm. 2, 8, 46). But those citations are all about garum, not about
                                    > liquamen because the word �liquamen� was a very new creation in the 1st
                                    > century that hadn�t made yet its way into the language of Pliny, Horace,
                                    > Seneca and Martial. Ausonius said that he wasn�t used to and couldn�t say
                                    > the Latin word (�nec solere nec posse dicere�) for �garum� and that those
                                    > who knew well old Latin and were disgusted with Greek vocabulary
                                    > (�scientissimi veterum et Graeca vocabula fastidientes�) hadn�t a Latin
                                    > word for it. So he called it �liquor iste sociorum� instead � but the
                                    > normal Latin word at the time of Ausonius was �liquamen� (which wasn�t an
                                    > old Latin word and Ausonius obviously didn�t like it; �muria� has been
                                    > mentioned in a similar context by Plinius in 31, 94 � probabely this muria
                                    > wasn�t just salty water). And this is what we can deduce also from the
                                    > Price Edict: �garum� is doubtlessly a Greek word, equal to �garon�, and the
                                    > correct Latin translation is �liquamen� at those times, i. e. at the
                                    > beginning of the 4th century. As it is a legal text, what we find in the
                                    > Price Edict is certainly not an arbitrary appellation. So if therein
                                    > �liquamen� is the translation of �garon� (which is identical to the Latin
                                    > �garum� which, according to Ausonius, is still a Greek word) why should we
                                    > believe that there was a fundamental difference between those two? There
                                    > were certainly varieties that may have had different trade names sometimes
                                    > but the Geoponika show us that in late antiquity the word �likouamen� could
                                    > substitute the original �garon� even in Greek. The same, of course in Apic.
                                    > 7, 13, 1: �ita ut piper cum liquamine teres� is an specification for �in
                                    > garo piper<ato>� (I prefer this version because the other one is
                                    > grammatically disputable and we have Petronius using a �garum piperatum� in
                                    > Sat. 36, 3). Probabely this is an old recipe of the 1st century where
                                    > someone added the explanation because he was in doubt if the people could
                                    > understand what �garum piperatum� meant.
                                    > From the references we have we can derive that the word �liquamen� has
                                    > been created in the 1st century and was used more and more � perhaps driven
                                    > by culinary experts like Apicius � until being an equivalent of the word
                                    > �garum� at the beginning of the 4th century even in legal texts like the
                                    > Price Edict. It has also been accepted as a synonym of �garon� in Greek as
                                    > we see from the Geoponika. There are some detailled descriptions of the
                                    > production of �garum� but only in the Geoponika we find the same for
                                    > �likouamen� which in that context is to be considered a synonym of �garon�.
                                    > The word �liquamen� is used in a similar way � i.e. as a translation of
                                    > �garum� or �garon� � in the Price Edict and in Apic. 7.13.1. Well, we may
                                    > get much more examplesfor �liquamen� and �garum� out of the epigraphic data
                                    > base (http://oracle-vm.ku-eichstaett.de:8888/epigr/epigraphik_de) but we
                                    > wouldn�t find many differences between �liquamen� and �garum� there. We
                                    > have �liquamen optimum scombri� and �garum flos scombri� and so on. From my
                                    > point of view it is not possible to clearly distinguish the both, �garum�
                                    > and �liquamen�, as both appear to be exchangeable in various contexts. They
                                    > vary in frequency of occurrence: �Garum� was used more frequently before
                                    > the 2nd century, �liquamen� was used more frequently from the end of the
                                    > 1st century.
                                    >
                                    > Best wishes,
                                    >
                                    > Robert
                                    >
                                    > From: sallygrain@...
                                    > Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 2:11 PM
                                    > To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Subject: Re: [Apicius] Garum and Liquamen (again)
                                    >
                                    > Your ref to Pliny is as follows in English for the rest ' then allec
                                    > became a luxury and its various kinds have come to be inumerable' These
                                    > refer to enumerable kinds of allec or fish paste made from sea food and not
                                    > neccesarily the liquid fish sauce derived from one kind of allec. The
                                    > liquid fish sauce was not enumerable in kind but basically 2 types or 3 if
                                    > you include muria 1, liquefied whole fish sauce. 2 fish blood and viscera
                                    > 3. brine from salted fish which corresponds to coluratura die alici from
                                    > the Naples area as this is made with eviscerated salted anchovy.
                                    >
                                    > Ultimately then, you are basing your argument that liquamen is not a
                                    > synonym for garum but is for garon on Apicius 7.13.1 which is one recipes
                                    > out of 450+ That garum and liquamen appear in this recipes and only this
                                    > one suggest to me that the pepper is ground with liquamen and them served
                                    > with garum at table. Otherwise it makes no sence to use both terms. If they
                                    > are there because whome ever wanted to translate the one with the other we
                                    > would at least find this construction - using both terms more often in the
                                    > rest of the text. The use of garum in the compound terms oenogarum,
                                    > hydrogarum etc is not relavant as they are transliterated Greek.
                                    >
                                    > You almost get it - The generic term only exists in Greek In latin
                                    > technically there is no generic term but as they are so similar many
                                    > ancient as well as modern scholars assume that the generic function was
                                    > transferred to the Latin when it was translated. I will even allow that
                                    > some ancients used garum when they actually meant liquamen but the
                                    > manufacturer, trader, merchant and cook never would have got them mixed up
                                    > - one was black and bloody, dark and strong used in drops while the other
                                    > was pale brown and used in quantity. There simply had to be a way to
                                    > distinguish them in trade. The acetabulum little vinegar cup in some
                                    > recipes (p 83 ff our edition) hold 60ml and was blended with a similar
                                    > amount of wine and fish sauce. The resulting oenogarum was delicious as i
                                    > am sure you know. I have made blood garum and it is disgusting in those
                                    > quantities. Check out http://www.ishiri.jp/en/ for the Japanese squid
                                    > blood and viscera fish sauce which is pitch black and smells distinctly of
                                    > blood - iron in fact, a frind who was a nurse told me it smells of digested
                                    > blood after smelling the human gut in surgery.
                                    >
                                    > You do know Ausonius' letter I am sure. He specifically says there is no
                                    > latin word that he can use instead of garum which he rejects as its Greek
                                    > in origin and he rejects Greek words. If liquamen was the equivelent of
                                    > garum in Latin he would have no problem. Instead of cause he fuels our
                                    > confussion with the use of muria which we cannot get tied up in now.
                                    >
                                    > sally
                                    >
                                    > -----Original Message-----
                                    > From: RM <mailto:apicius%40maierphil.de>;
                                    > To: Apicius <mailto:Apicius%40yahoogroups.com>;
                                    > Sent: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 0:15
                                    > Subject: Re: [Apicius] Garum and Liquamen (again)
                                    >
                                    > Hi Sally,
                                    >
                                    > the fact that a lot of differt types of �garum� existed is obviously true
                                    > but it is not my idea. This has already been reported by Pliny in the half
                                    > sentence I cited before: �... , creveruntque genera ad infinitum, ...�
                                    > (Plin. NH 31, 95). So why shouldn�t Pliny be right? I am sure that there
                                    > were not only the two forms of �garum� that you mentioned but a lot of
                                    > other varieties, too. So why shouldn�t they have been sold eventually under
                                    > the same name �garum�? In the Price Edict and even in the Geoponika
                                    > �liquamen� (or in Greek letters �likouamen�) is clearly a synonym /
                                    > translation of the Greek word garon. The Price Edict has a first and a
                                    > second quality of garon / liquamen. The name of both qualities was the same
                                    > but to produce different qualities probabely the ingredients were somewhat
                                    > different. And then there is also the Apicius recipe 7, 13, 1 garum and
                                    > liquamen do mean exactly the same: �fungi farnei: elixi, calidi, exsiccati
                                    > in garo piper<ato> accipiuntur, ita ut piper cum liquamine teres.� � I
                                    > cited this from my own Apicius edition where it is numbered 7, 15, 1 (ed.
                                    > Robert Maier, Reclam, Stuttgart 1991), the text of your edition has �piper�
                                    > instead of �piper<ato>�. Unfortunately Manilius doesn�t tell us the names
                                    > of what his fishermen were creating in the Astronomica 5, 667 sqq.
                                    > To conclude: I think it�s an alluring hypothesis to believe in a real
                                    > difference between �garum� and �liquamen� but it�s a hypothesis that lacks
                                    > evidence. As we can deduce from the Price Edict and the Geoponika
                                    > �liquamen� was a synonym at least of the Greek �garon� and probabely also
                                    > of the Roman �garum�, as we see in Apic. 7, 13, 1. What we eventually could
                                    > assume is that �liquamen� in some contexts might have been understood as a
                                    > specific quality of �garum� (some filtered high quality �garum�) but there
                                    > is certainly no general distinction. On the amphorae one should expect some
                                    > trade names, as we use today the word �balsamico� for a specific type of
                                    > vinegar, while the product class remains �vinegar�. So in our case the
                                    > product class would be �garum� including more specific appellations like
                                    > �garum sociorum�, �garum scombri�, �liquamen� etc. At the end �liquamen�
                                    > was used as a general term (because everyone tends to use only the very
                                    > best quality), just as it happened in the case of �iecur� which, at the
                                    > end, was called always �ficatum� and became �fegato�, �foie� etc. in the
                                    > different modern languages.
                                    >
                                    > Best wishes,
                                    >
                                    > Robert
                                    >
                                    > From: mailto:sallygrain%40aol.com
                                    > Sent: Monday, July 16, 2012 7:57 PM
                                    > To: mailto:Apicius%40yahoogroups.com
                                    > Subject: Re: [Apicius] Garum and Liquamen (again)
                                    >
                                    > Hi
                                    >
                                    > Your approach to fish sauce is too simplistic I am afraid. Do you not even
                                    > recognise the fact of a separate blood and viscera sauce different from the
                                    > whole-fish sauce. They cannot both be garum!, the former black and bloody,
                                    > the latter pale golden according to Pliny. They have different uses, the
                                    > garon melan was used at table and so became a fashionable ingredient to
                                    > discuss in satire, the cooking liquamen was only used in the kitchen by
                                    > slaves and therefore was not recognised as a separate sauce by the elite.
                                    > The tituli picti associated with amphorae from Pompeii and Rome reflect the
                                    > frequent usage of liquamen in the 1st century along side garum. We find
                                    > garum scombri flos and liquamen flos in contempory sites: they have to mean
                                    > two separate sauces, there is no way out of that one!
                                    >
                                    > sally
                                    >
                                    > -----Original Message-----
                                    > From: RM <mailto:apicius%40maierphil.de>;;
                                    > To: Apicius <mailto:Apicius%40yahoogroups.com>;;
                                    > Sent: Sun, 15 Jul 2012 22:24
                                    > Subject: Re: [Apicius] Garum and Liquamen (again)
                                    >
                                    > Just a little correction and an addition: The Geoponika have been written
                                    > down about 600 years after the Price Edict (not 800!). The word �garum� is
                                    > found twice within the Apicius recipes, in 7, 13, 1 (with �liquamen� in the
                                    > same recipe!) and Exc. 29 (according to Vollmer & Milham).
                                    >
                                    > Best regards
                                    >
                                    > RM
                                    >
                                    > From: RM
                                    > Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 8:36 PM
                                    > To: mailto:Apicius%40yahoogroups.com
                                    > Subject: Re: [Apicius] Garum and Liquamen (again)
                                    >
                                    > Well, we don�t know exactly when the Apicius collection has been compiled
                                    > but it is quite sure that has been compiled from a base of earlier recipes
                                    > from which about a third is to be considered to be from an original
                                    > cookbook probabely written by the same Apicius who has been mentioned in
                                    > Plinius� Naturalis Historia (see Brandt: �Untersuchungen zum r�mischen
                                    > Kochbuch� in Philologus Suppl. XIX, 3). From the Historia Augusta we learn
                                    > that Aelius Verus who died in 138 took three books into his bed: Amores by
                                    > Ovid, Apicius and Martial. We may believe this or not. If we believe it
                                    > there should have been an edition of Apicius at those times. I didn�t say
                                    > that Apicius was the only one who ever mentioned �liquamen� � I said he was
                                    > the only one who used it in this sense in antiquity, Vegetius and
                                    > Pelagonius lived in very late antiquity, but you wouldn�t find the term
                                    > before Columella where it signified just a liquid. The question is
                                    > therefore if your �liquamen�, that may differ from �garum�, was invented
                                    > after the 1st or 2nd century. There is no doubt that there were many
                                    > different types and qualities of garum (�... , creveruntque genera ad
                                    > infinitum, ...� Plin. NH 31, 95). Plinius tells us that Apicius used the so
                                    > called �garum sociorum� which is just a type of garum. In his Naturalis
                                    > Historia Plinius mentioned �garum� sometimes � liquamen never. I personally
                                    > believe that Plinius did know very well what he was writing about in book
                                    > 31 where he describes the production of �garum� � there he calls it a
                                    > �liquor� (not �liquamen� of course). What you can find in the Diocletian�s
                                    > Price Edict are two terms (3.6): �garou ge�matos prwte�ou� in Greek,
                                    > �liquaminis primi� in Latin � there the word �liquamen� appears as a simple
                                    > translation of �garon� (why do you think it should be �garos�?). The
                                    > Geoponika, of course, has been compiled 800 years later, using authors of
                                    > the late antiquity but it is very interesting that in the Geoponika the
                                    > Latin word �liquamen� appears twice as �t� kalo�menon likouamen� (=�the so
                                    > called liquamen�) in the chapter "Garwn piohsis" (20, 46, 1+2).
                                    >
                                    > Well, I better stop here because it would end up with some kind of endless
                                    > discussion. There is � in my opinion � no real evidence for any difference
                                    > of liquamen and garum, especially if we consider the Price Edict and the
                                    > Geoponika. I think �liquamen� is just a word that may have been introduced
                                    > by people like Apicius as a terminus technicus to substitute �garum� in
                                    > technical language and then spread more and more until Anthimus did only
                                    > use the term �liquamen� ("Nam liquamen ex omni parte prohibimus."). Even
                                    > the �so called liquamen� in the Geoponika leads to this direction.
                                    >
                                    > Best regards
                                    >
                                    > RM
                                    > From: mailto:sallygrain%40aol.com
                                    > Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 5:06 PM
                                    > To: mailto:Apicius%40yahoogroups.com
                                    > Subject: Re: [Apicius] Garum and Liquamen (again)
                                    >
                                    > OK
                                    >
                                    > garum liquamen and the differences: i recently presented a paper at the
                                    > British School at Rome to archaeologist of the fish trade in the Med. and
                                    > therefore what follows is a pressi of what i said to them
                                    >
                                    > To start with you talk about Apicius as if he was the sole author and
                                    > originator of the text when it is clear from our textual analysis that the
                                    > recipe collection has multiple authors and they are slave cooks rather than
                                    > a single gourmet. In terms of food at this level there were consumers and
                                    > producers and it is the producers - the cooks - who we must trust to use
                                    > the terminology correctly. You cannot argue that Apicius wrote this or that
                                    > way, logically all the slave cooks wrote liquamen rather than garum for a
                                    > reason. Equally you cannot place Apicius as a text in the late Empire
                                    > reflecting a late usage for fish sauce. The terms used in it must reflect
                                    > the way in which cooks expressed themselves throughout the classical
                                    > period. The whole argument and justification for Vulgar Latin/Late Latin is
                                    > based on elite usage. You say garum was the more commonplace term but in
                                    > fact it is the other way round: Caelius Aurelianus says that the vulgar
                                    > latin term in every day usage is liquamen. You also state that liquamen
                                    > only occurs in Apicius but this is not the case. It is found in the Greek
                                    > agricultural manual The Geoponica - you do all know that Andrew Dalby has
                                    > recently published a new translation of this dont you ? - where it is a
                                    > direct translation of the Greek garon but wait ...garon does not
                                    > necessarily mean garum. It is also found frequently along with garum in the
                                    > same veterinary recipe collections, particularly Vegetius and Pelagonius.
                                    > (Pelagonius: liquamen: 9; 11.2; 13;98; 455; 457, garum: 428;13. Vegetius
                                    > liquamen: 1.10.1; 1.17.10, 16; 2.91.2; 2.108.2; 2.132.4; 4.6.1, garum:
                                    > 2.28.8; 3.28.10). In Galen it is also clear that two sauces were used: he
                                    > refers simply to garon many times but only once or twice to garon melan. We
                                    > have two names and two sauces so there shouldn't have been a problem!
                                    >
                                    > (Pelagonius: liquamen: 9; 11.2; 13;98; 455; 457, garum: 428;13. Vegetius
                                    > liquamen: 1.10.1; 1.17.10, 16; 2.91.2; 2.108.2; 2.132.4; 4.6.1, garum:
                                    > 2.28.8; 3.28.10). In Galen it is also clear that two sauces were used: he
                                    > refers simply to garon many times but only once or twice to garon melan. We
                                    > have two names and two sauces so there shouldn't have been a problem!
                                    >
                                    > Apicius - this is the title not the author - is an organic collection of
                                    > recipes originally compiled, in it's earliest form, in Greek and we
                                    > consider this to be in the late 1st century AD and possibly even earlier.
                                    > We see no evidence of a formal publication date, only a finish date which
                                    > is clearly 5/6th century. The chapter heading are in Greek and there are
                                    > numerous terms that are not translated but transliterated i.e the Greek
                                    > endings are converted into Latin endings so oenogaron: the Greek sauce made
                                    > from the original Greek fish sauce and wine becomes oenogarum. Bare in mind
                                    > the whole idea of fish sauce was originally Greek
                                    >
                                    > So if the cooks dont use garum qua garum one has to ask why? At this point
                                    > I am pasting from the delivered paper
                                    >
                                    > What we first must do is acknowledge the presence of a blood and viscera
                                    > sauce in the Ancient Mediterranean cuisine that we think of as Roman food.
                                    > This sauce was a strong black and bloody condiment called in Greek garon
                                    > melan or haimation that I believe was almost certainly handled by the
                                    > consumer at table. This sauce was completely separate to the primary
                                    > product in terms of archaeology (the amphora and fish bones) which was a
                                    > cooking sauce made from whole-fish with extra viscera which provided
                                    > enzymes which aided the liquefaction of the muscle tissue.
                                    > The development and use of the primary product: a fish sauce made with
                                    > whole fish, initially began in Greece and was a simple sauce made of very
                                    > small fish (otherwise of no value) and salt used in everyday cooking. It is
                                    > clear from references in 3rd century new comedy in Athens that this sauce
                                    > was used with oil and vinegar or wine as a dressing for vegetables and
                                    > pulses and was not considered particularly elite. My colleague Andrew Dalby
                                    > has stated it to be a commonplace ingredient and it is noteworthy that
                                    > Archestratus, the 2nd century Greek gourmet poet writing from Sicily about
                                    > the best fish does not mention fish sauce at all. Later Galen in the 2nd
                                    > Century AD is also suggesting the use of garos in dressing of oil and
                                    > vinegar to accompany simple vegetables. The Apicius recipes collection
                                    > includes a whole section on vegetables which are also largely accompanied
                                    > by oil, wine and fish sauce. These simple blended sauces are basically like
                                    > vinaigrette and are throughout the Apicius recipe text in various forms.
                                    > The most common was an oenogarum a transliterated term from the Greek. In
                                    > fact when oenogarum is translated into Latin - it is found in Ps. Gargilius
                                    > Martialis recipe - it appears as Confectio liquaminis. So there rearly is
                                    > no garum in Apicius. This means of cause that there is no blood and viscera
                                    > garum, because as a table sauce it was used on food rather than in the
                                    > cooking and was also used to make elite oenogarum that may have been
                                    > blended at table by the gourmet or slaves attendants.
                                    >
                                    > This simple Greek whole fish sauce almost certainly came to Rome as garon
                                    > transliterated into garum but was still this simple liquefied fish sauce.
                                    > As fish sauce became popular in Rome the elite were concerned with
                                    > differentiating their foods from everybody else�s and I believe they may
                                    > have instigated new developments in fish sauce types, one of which was the
                                    > blood and viscera sauce and one was the use of much larger fish that did
                                    > have a market value such as mackerel and larger clupeidae and sparidae
                                    > which could have been used as salted fish.
                                    > I believe the confusion over the terminology occurred when the elite
                                    > retained the term garum - the transliterated and now fashionable Greek term
                                    > to designate their new table sauce made from blood and viscera and the
                                    > manufacturer, trader , merchant and cook had to coin a new term in Latin to
                                    > designate the original and commonplace fish sauce, called garon made from
                                    > whole fish. This was liquamen, the derivation of which is �to liquefy so it
                                    > is aptly titled.
                                    > We have mentioned the absence of garum from Apicius but we must also
                                    > mention the absence of the separate Latin blood garum from Diocletians
                                    > price edict in 301 AD . Here liquamen is equivalent to garos not garum just
                                    > as we find in the Geoponica. These two absences are of cause the primary
                                    > reason for the 'single sauce hypothesis' advovated by Curtis. If however
                                    > you see these absences as evidence that the blood garum was no longer
                                    > sufficiently popular in the early 4th century AD to warrant its own price
                                    > on the edict or a mention in the recipes, then the later dominance of
                                    > liquamen is explained. In fact (a guess) I believe the elite blood viscera
                                    > garum had a relatively small market in comparison to liquamen and was made
                                    > to appear more important because of the unusually close view we get of the
                                    > elite at table in the early empire through satire. It was still made in the
                                    > late empire as we know Ausonius acquired a jar in the mid 4th century but
                                    > it seems it was a special delivery and therefore probably not readily
                                    > available in southern France, and he is also very confused as to what to
                                    > call it!
                                    > The original Greek sauce � garos equivalent to liquamen - remained the
                                    > primary product. We can I think come to see how it was that later sources
                                    > began to say that garum was liquamen. Caelius Aurelianus says that the
                                    > vulgar latin term in every day usage is liquamen � I don�t think he means
                                    > just the poor here - and the elite prefer garum but in principle it�s the
                                    > same product. if Pliny can fail to see the two sauces when it was popular,
                                    > when the blood sauce has become rare it would seem quite logical to revert
                                    > to the earlier usage and make the assumption that everyone has - ancient
                                    > and modern - that the Greek and Latin meant the same thing'.
                                    > note: I have not pasted the bit from Pliny but he is the cause of most of
                                    > the confusion as he conflates both sauces into one. His elite expensive
                                    > garum is made from viscera and most interpretations of his definition of
                                    > fish sauce presupposed that he also meant to say small fish as he goes on
                                    > to suggest that allec was the residue of garum but the blood viscera sauce
                                    > has no bones or fish paste to make an allec. Only the primary fish sauce
                                    > generates a fish paste.
                                    > Hope this helps. It is a theory i will own but a thoroughly rational and
                                    > logical one according to the archaeologists (and Robert Curtis who has been
                                    > an adviser), I spoke to and they will be moving forward in analysing
                                    > amphorae shapes and fish bone residues with the idea that there were two
                                    > basic types of sauce in the 1st century AD when all the archaeology is most
                                    > prolific.
                                    >
                                    > Sally Grainger
                                    >
                                    > -----Original Message-----
                                    > From: RM <mailto:apicius%40maierphil.de>;;;
                                    > To: Apicius <mailto:Apicius%40yahoogroups.com>;;;
                                    > Sent: Sat, 14 Jul 2012 14:05
                                    > Subject: [Apicius] Garum and Liquamen (again)
                                    >
                                    > I am sorry, but are you really sure that there is any evidence for a
                                    > difference between garum and the Apician �liquamen�? �liquamen� is a word
                                    > used only by Apicius instead of the more common word �garum�. A good
                                    > example is the following recipe:
                                    > �Hydrogarata isicia sic facies: teres piper, ligusticum, pyrethrum
                                    > minimum, suffundes liquamen. temperas aquam cisterninam, dum inducet,
                                    > exinanies in caccabo, et tum isicia ad vaporem ignis pones, ut caleat, et
                                    > sic sorbendum inferes.�
                                    > This means that to make �hydrogarum� Apicius used �liquamen� et �aqua
                                    > cisternina�. �liquamen� for Apicius is just a terminus technicus. The word
                                    > �liquamen� has been used in antiquity just by Columella (who used it in a
                                    > different context) and once by Flavius Vopiscus Syracusius on Aurelius
                                    > where it meant �garum�. The hypothesis of a difference between garum and
                                    > liquamen sounds interesting but I think Apicius just introduced the word
                                    > �liquamen� as a t.t. in order to substitute the common word �garum�.
                                    >
                                    > Best regards
                                    >
                                    > RM
                                    >
                                    > From: mailto:sallygrain%40aol.com
                                    > Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2012 1:49 PM
                                    > To: mailto:Apicius%40yahoogroups.com
                                    > Subject: Re: [Apicius] Recent Cook Out
                                    >
                                    > good to know the dishes worked
                                    > Can i just point out - as i am a bit of a stickler for such things - that
                                    > the recipes in Apicius use the word liquamen rather than garum because they
                                    > represent two different sauces - one whole-fish sauce, one a blood viscera
                                    > fish sauce and I don't want to see an inaccurate ref that puports to be
                                    > from my book where you have changed liquamen into garum in the belief that
                                    > they are synonymous - they were not.
                                    >
                                    > thanks so much
                                    > sally
                                    >
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                                  • Justin Mansfield
                                    ... Distracted? I ll say! Sorry about that, please read useless, tiny fish. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Jul 20, 2012
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      >
                                      > ... But it was originally made specifically from useless, tiny finish.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      Distracted? I'll say!

                                      Sorry about that, please read "useless, tiny fish."


                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • sallygrain@aol.com
                                      Hi justine and all this is getting wonderfully complicated but as i have always wanted to get to grips with what Pliny says here i do think we might continue
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Jul 21, 2012
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Hi justine and all

                                        this is getting wonderfully complicated but as i have always wanted to get to grips with what Pliny says here i do think we might continue if no one minds ? Take care of your feast first by all means! Hope it goes well.

                                        Your theory is probably not on the case as it is pretty certain that allec was made specifically, that was somewhat the point of the
                                        sentance. It was a residue - ie a fish paste derived from the manufacture of fish sauce and now it is being made especially from very small fish - tiny 'born of rain ' he says which means no bones at all. It resembles pissalat - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pissalat and anchovy pate generally as it is not fermented and made to be a fish paste. There are a few ref to this product becoming a desirable item at table though it is always difficult to comprehend. Martial epi gram III. 77 where capers and onions are served with allec. There is another but i cannot find it where a women devoures a platter of allec. He then goes on to say that allec was then a luxury item when made from bone free sea food such as oysters and mullet livers etc.

                                        So i would maintain that the allec was still enumerable i.e. made with every kind of fish and sea food and that seems to be the point here.

                                        i have some what lost the point of the original argument - no - it was that garum or liquamen could be enumerable in kind but i would maintain that the differences are all about what kind of fish are used - the process remains either to liquefy = liquamen or to take the juice from = blood viscera garum

                                        sally


                                        -----Original Message-----
                                        From: Justin Mansfield <iustinus@...>
                                        To: Apicius <Apicius@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Sent: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 18:55
                                        Subject: Re: [Apicius] Garum and Liquamen (again)


                                        >
                                        Justine jump in when ever you want!

                                        have been summoned. I just hope you're pronouncing "Justine" as three
                                        yllables! ;)
                                        Sorry, I haven't had time to follow this debate in any detail: I'm rushing
                                        round in my final days before the Conventiculum Latinum Lexintoniense,
                                        hich is of course when I have my annual Cena Romana (Incidentally I tried
                                        aking Columella's recipe for pickled purslane... but I suspect I did it
                                        rong. We'll see how it tastes when I open the jar) Not much focus to spare
                                        n so detailed an argument.
                                        This just gets worse when I look at the text:
                                        (�In process of time, alex has become quite an object of luxury, and the
                                        various kinds that are now made are infinite in number. The same, too, with
                                        garum, which is now prepared in imitation of the colour of old honied wine,
                                        and so pleasantly flavoured as to admit of being taken as a drink'
                                        This is very poor translation i think - Justine jump in when ever you
                                        want! 'The same too' does not sound right at all for secuti garum The loeb
                                        has 'for instance' implying a single example ' garum for instance ...
                                        rather than suggesting that garum had multiple varieties as well.

                                        y vey. My first instinct is indeed "for instance," but yeah, given that
                                        ts most basic meaning is "just as," I can see how "the same, too" is a
                                        ossibility. But as is so often the case with Pliny it's not so much a
                                        uestion of what the word could or could not mean, the real problem is
                                        rying to follow his stream of thought. For starters:
                                        *Vitium huius est allex atque inperfecta nec colata faex. coepit tamen et
                                        rivatim ex inutili pisciculo minimoque confici. *
                                        ts blemish and unfinished, unstrained dregs is *allex*. But it was
                                        riginally made specifically from useless, tiny finish.
                                        What was originally made this way? On first reading it sounds like he means
                                        allex*. But I'm pretty sure the topic of this entire paragraph is fish
                                        auce in general (the *huius* of the first sentence), not the *vitium *thereof.
                                        n other words, the "it" in the second sentence refers back not to *allex* but
                                        ather the "Its" of the first sentence! I mean, why would he be talking
                                        bout what kind of fish they use to make lees with in *Forum Iulii*, right?
                                        ou don't set out to make *faex*, *faex* is a byproduct of something else.
                                        If you still think those sentences are only about *allex*, then yeah, he
                                        ust be saying something like "[*allex*] became a luxury, and its varieties
                                        rew to be innumerable, *just as* [happened with] *garum*, which
                                        as [nowadays] been diluted to the color of old *mulsum*, and such
                                        weetness that you could drink it."
                                        But if you accept that he's talking about fish sauce in general, he seems
                                        o be saying "[fish sauce] became a luxury, and its varieties grew to be
                                        nnumerable, *for instance* [the variety of] *garum* which is diluted to
                                        he color of old *mulsum*, and such sweetness that you could drink it."
                                        It seems to me pretty clear that the latter translation is preferable, and
                                        his jibes well with my point that the rest of the paragraph makes better
                                        ense if we assume the sentence about *allex* was essentially a
                                        arenthetical gloss.
                                        I tell you, every time I read Pliny the Elder something like this happens:
                                        very sentence in the paragraph could be interpreted in multiple ways, and
                                        he key is finding the thread so that it all makes sense.
                                        As I said, I'm very distracted right now, so please forgive any sloppiness,
                                        r inattention to what has already been said.
                                        Valete
                                        On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 12:06 PM, <sallygrain@...> wrote:
                                        > **



                                        Hi

                                        'So why shouldn�t Pliny be right? I am sure that there were not only the
                                        two forms of �garum� that you mentioned but a lot of other varieties'

                                        The varieties are determined by the species of fish, their quality and
                                        origin. The fish bone evidence from ship wrecks which I have studies
                                        extensively reveal tiny anchovy or sardine or a mixed variety of small
                                        clupiedae and sparidae and they would make one kind - the most basic i
                                        think - of fish sauce, while mackerel is common in fish sauce amphorae and
                                        the tituli picti make it clear this was the best. Apicius - the gourmet
                                        rather than the recipe text - suggest mullet or nd we can assume any other
                                        specified and selected fish would make a superior kind. The subsequent
                                        sauce would not be named by its fish type but by the process it underwent.
                                        To liquefy i.e. liquamen or the juice from them i.e. the blood and viscera
                                        sauce.



                                        You still havnt explained to me how the manufacturer, merchant trader and
                                        cook was able to distinguish between the blood and viscera sauce and the
                                        whole fish variety. You cannot deny the existance of a blood viscera sauce
                                        - its in the Geoponica as a distinctly separate entity and it is also
                                        defined as 'luxury' Martial 'made from the blood of a still breathing
                                        mackerel' afirms its existance. As i said it matters not one jot what the
                                        stupid ill informed gourmet thinks he is eating - the manufacturer needs to
                                        be able to distinguish between them. You note that liquamen is rare and
                                        late but it is also only found in didactic texts written by the
                                        practitioner and producer - slave cook, vet, writers of agricultural
                                        material. The same kind of people as the manufacturer and merchant who need
                                        specific and precise terminology to identify their products. The absence of
                                        liquamen in elite literature as I have already said is due to the obvious
                                        fact that poets such as Martial etc consume garum at table and do not cook
                                        so they dont recognise the existence of a separate cooking sauce which is
                                        weaker.

                                        (�In process of time, alex has become quite an object of luxury, and the
                                        various kinds that are now made are infinite in number. The same, too, with
                                        garum, which is now prepared in imitation of the colour of old honied wine,
                                        and so pleasantly flavoured as to admit of being taken as a drink'

                                        This is very poor translation i think - Justine jump in when ever you
                                        want! 'The same too' does not sound right at all for secuti garum The loeb
                                        has 'for instance' implying a single example ' garum for instance ...
                                        rather than suggesting that garum had multiple varieties as well.

                                        'this implies that there were other, less praised types of garum � and
                                        that intestina and other parts of the fish were used'

                                        You cannot separate the blood and viscera here and suggest that blood is
                                        valuable and viscera not - thats utterly confused. The
                                        most prized type of garum was made from mackerel viscera and blood with
                                        salt and nothing else.

                                        'but the normal Latin word at the time of Ausonius was �liquamen� (which
                                        wasn�t an old Latin word and Ausonius obviously didn�t like it'
                                        You simply cannot say this, Its the worst kind of special pleading when
                                        your argument fails you. Ausonius didnt use the term liquamen because he
                                        didn't receive liquamen, he received garum He calls it liquor iste
                                        sociorum. 'that liquor of our allies' which directly links in with
                                        Martials' 'made from the blood of a still breathing mackerel' which he also
                                        calls garum sociorum, the most expensive kind of garum according to Pliny
                                        too, when garum is a blood/viscera sauce. Garum can also be cheap and
                                        cheerful and made from any old bit of fish blood and viscera.

                                        The crucial thing about the epigraphic evidence which you have failed to
                                        recognise is that in Pompeii there are amphorae with garum and there are
                                        amphorae with liquamen labels in the same context. This is indisputable
                                        evidence, that makes it absolutely clear, without a doubt, that for the
                                        people who made and bought fish sauce in Pompeii in 69 AD garum and
                                        liquamen represented different products. By the 4th century as i have
                                        already said the blood viscera sauce was insufficiently popular to warrant
                                        attention - in Apicius or the price edict and as a result the differences
                                        had ceased to mean anything which is why they appear to be the same in the
                                        late Empire

                                        all the best sally

                                        -----Original Message-----
                                        From: RM <apicius@...>
                                        To: Apicius <Apicius@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Sent: Thu, 19 Jul 2012 0:18
                                        Subject: Re: [Apicius] Garum and Liquamen (again)

                                        Sorry for the late answer. I wasn�t at home yesterday and therefore not
                                        able to sit down and reply immediately.
                                        Meanwhile I had a look at some editions of the Naturalis Historia � one by
                                        Roderich K�nig with German translation, the other the one by John Bostock
                                        et al. included in Perseus (
                                        http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0137%3Abook%3D31%3Achapter%3D44).
                                        Essentially those two interpreted the passage as to be referred not only to
                                        allex but also to garum (�In process of time, alex has become quite an
                                        object of luxury, and the various kinds that are now made are infinite in
                                        number. The same, too, with garum, which is now prepared in imitation of
                                        the colour of old honied wine, and so pleasantly flavoured as to admit of
                                        being taken as a drink.� from: The Natural History. Pliny the Elder. John
                                        Bostock, M.D., F.R.S. H.T. Riley, Esq., B.A. London. Taylor and Francis,
                                        Red Lion Court, Fleet Street. 1855.). So, at least, I am not hopelessly
                                        alone with my interpretation.
                                        Certainly there were a lot of different types of garum during and before
                                        the 1st century and even after. Martial cites the garum made from the blood
                                        of scomber, Plinius said that the most praised garum was indeed made from
                                        scomber � this implies that there were other, less praised types of garum �
                                        and that intestina and other parts of the fish were used. The fishermen of
                                        Manilius seem to use tunny. Horace mentioned garum �de sucis piscis� (Hor.
                                        Serm. 2, 8, 46). But those citations are all about garum, not about
                                        liquamen because the word �liquamen� was a very new creation in the 1st
                                        century that hadn�t made yet its way into the language of Pliny, Horace,
                                        Seneca and Martial. Ausonius said that he wasn�t used to and couldn�t say
                                        the Latin word (�nec solere nec posse dicere�) for �garum� and that those
                                        who knew well old Latin and were disgusted with Greek vocabulary
                                        (�scientissimi veterum et Graeca vocabula fastidientes�) hadn�t a Latin
                                        word for it. So he called it �liquor iste sociorum� instead � but the
                                        normal Latin word at the time of Ausonius was �liquamen� (which wasn�t an
                                        old Latin word and Ausonius obviously didn�t like it; �muria� has been
                                        mentioned in a similar context by Plinius in 31, 94 � probabely this muria
                                        wasn�t just salty water). And this is what we can deduce also from the
                                        Price Edict: �garum� is doubtlessly a Greek word, equal to �garon�, and the
                                        correct Latin translation is �liquamen� at those times, i. e. at the
                                        beginning of the 4th century. As it is a legal text, what we find in the
                                        Price Edict is certainly not an arbitrary appellation. So if therein
                                        �liquamen� is the translation of �garon� (which is identical to the Latin
                                        �garum� which, according to Ausonius, is still a Greek word) why should we
                                        believe that there was a fundamental difference between those two? There
                                        were certainly varieties that may have had different trade names sometimes
                                        but the Geoponika show us that in late antiquity the word �likouamen� could
                                        substitute the original �garon� even in Greek. The same, of course in Apic.
                                        7, 13, 1: �ita ut piper cum liquamine teres� is an specification for �in
                                        garo piper<ato>� (I prefer this version because the other one is
                                        grammatically disputable and we have Petronius using a �garum piperatum� in
                                        Sat. 36, 3). Probabely this is an old recipe of the 1st century where
                                        someone added the explanation because he was in doubt if the people could
                                        understand what �garum piperatum� meant.
                                        From the references we have we can derive that the word �liquamen� has
                                        been created in the 1st century and was used more and more � perhaps driven
                                        by culinary experts like Apicius � until being an equivalent of the word
                                        �garum� at the beginning of the 4th century even in legal texts like the
                                        Price Edict. It has also been accepted as a synonym of �garon� in Greek as
                                        we see from the Geoponika. There are some detailled descriptions of the
                                        production of �garum� but only in the Geoponika we find the same for
                                        �likouamen� which in that context is to be considered a synonym of �garon�.
                                        The word �liquamen� is used in a similar way � i.e. as a translation of
                                        �garum� or �garon� � in the Price Edict and in Apic. 7.13.1. Well, we may
                                        get much more examplesfor �liquamen� and �garum� out of the epigraphic data
                                        base (http://oracle-vm.ku-eichstaett.de:8888/epigr/epigraphik_de) but we
                                        wouldn�t find many differences between �liquamen� and �garum� there. We
                                        have �liquamen optimum scombri� and �garum flos scombri� and so on. From my
                                        point of view it is not possible to clearly distinguish the both, �garum�
                                        and �liquamen�, as both appear to be exchangeable in various contexts. They
                                        vary in frequency of occurrence: �Garum� was used more frequently before
                                        the 2nd century, �liquamen� was used more frequently from the end of the
                                        1st century.

                                        Best wishes,

                                        Robert

                                        From: sallygrain@...
                                        Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 2:11 PM
                                        To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: Re: [Apicius] Garum and Liquamen (again)

                                        Your ref to Pliny is as follows in English for the rest ' then allec
                                        became a luxury and its various kinds have come to be inumerable' These
                                        refer to enumerable kinds of allec or fish paste made from sea food and not
                                        neccesarily the liquid fish sauce derived from one kind of allec. The
                                        liquid fish sauce was not enumerable in kind but basically 2 types or 3 if
                                        you include muria 1, liquefied whole fish sauce. 2 fish blood and viscera
                                        3. brine from salted fish which corresponds to coluratura die alici from
                                        the Naples area as this is made with eviscerated salted anchovy.

                                        Ultimately then, you are basing your argument that liquamen is not a
                                        synonym for garum but is for garon on Apicius 7.13.1 which is one recipes
                                        out of 450+ That garum and liquamen appear in this recipes and only this
                                        one suggest to me that the pepper is ground with liquamen and them served
                                        with garum at table. Otherwise it makes no sence to use both terms. If they
                                        are there because whome ever wanted to translate the one with the other we
                                        would at least find this construction - using both terms more often in the
                                        rest of the text. The use of garum in the compound terms oenogarum,
                                        hydrogarum etc is not relavant as they are transliterated Greek.

                                        You almost get it - The generic term only exists in Greek In latin
                                        technically there is no generic term but as they are so similar many
                                        ancient as well as modern scholars assume that the generic function was
                                        transferred to the Latin when it was translated. I will even allow that
                                        some ancients used garum when they actually meant liquamen but the
                                        manufacturer, trader, merchant and cook never would have got them mixed up
                                        - one was black and bloody, dark and strong used in drops while the other
                                        was pale brown and used in quantity. There simply had to be a way to
                                        distinguish them in trade. The acetabulum little vinegar cup in some
                                        recipes (p 83 ff our edition) hold 60ml and was blended with a similar
                                        amount of wine and fish sauce. The resulting oenogarum was delicious as i
                                        am sure you know. I have made blood garum and it is disgusting in those
                                        quantities. Check out http://www.ishiri.jp/en/ for the Japanese squid
                                        blood and viscera fish sauce which is pitch black and smells distinctly of
                                        blood - iron in fact, a frind who was a nurse told me it smells of digested
                                        blood after smelling the human gut in surgery.

                                        You do know Ausonius' letter I am sure. He specifically says there is no
                                        latin word that he can use instead of garum which he rejects as its Greek
                                        in origin and he rejects Greek words. If liquamen was the equivelent of
                                        garum in Latin he would have no problem. Instead of cause he fuels our
                                        confussion with the use of muria which we cannot get tied up in now.

                                        sally

                                        -----Original Message-----
                                        From: RM <mailto:apicius%40maierphil.de>;
                                        To: Apicius <mailto:Apicius%40yahoogroups.com>;
                                        Sent: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 0:15
                                        Subject: Re: [Apicius] Garum and Liquamen (again)

                                        Hi Sally,

                                        the fact that a lot of differt types of �garum� existed is obviously true
                                        but it is not my idea. This has already been reported by Pliny in the half
                                        sentence I cited before: �... , creveruntque genera ad infinitum, ...�
                                        (Plin. NH 31, 95). So why shouldn�t Pliny be right? I am sure that there
                                        were not only the two forms of �garum� that you mentioned but a lot of
                                        other varieties, too. So why shouldn�t they have been sold eventually under
                                        the same name �garum�? In the Price Edict and even in the Geoponika
                                        �liquamen� (or in Greek letters �likouamen�) is clearly a synonym /
                                        translation of the Greek word garon. The Price Edict has a first and a
                                        second quality of garon / liquamen. The name of both qualities was the same
                                        but to produce different qualities probabely the ingredients were somewhat
                                        different. And then there is also the Apicius recipe 7, 13, 1 garum and
                                        liquamen do mean exactly the same: �fungi farnei: elixi, calidi, exsiccati
                                        in garo piper<ato> accipiuntur, ita ut piper cum liquamine teres.� � I
                                        cited this from my own Apicius edition where it is numbered 7, 15, 1 (ed.
                                        Robert Maier, Reclam, Stuttgart 1991), the text of your edition has �piper�
                                        instead of �piper<ato>�. Unfortunately Manilius doesn�t tell us the names
                                        of what his fishermen were creating in the Astronomica 5, 667 sqq.
                                        To conclude: I think it�s an alluring hypothesis to believe in a real
                                        difference between �garum� and �liquamen� but it�s a hypothesis that lacks
                                        evidence. As we can deduce from the Price Edict and the Geoponika
                                        �liquamen� was a synonym at least of the Greek �garon� and probabely also
                                        of the Roman �garum�, as we see in Apic. 7, 13, 1. What we eventually could
                                        assume is that �liquamen� in some contexts might have been understood as a
                                        specific quality of �garum� (some filtered high quality �garum�) but there
                                        is certainly no general distinction. On the amphorae one should expect some
                                        trade names, as we use today the word �balsamico� for a specific type of
                                        vinegar, while the product class remains �vinegar�. So in our case the
                                        product class would be �garum� including more specific appellations like
                                        �garum sociorum�, �garum scombri�, �liquamen� etc. At the end �liquamen�
                                        was used as a general term (because everyone tends to use only the very
                                        best quality), just as it happened in the case of �iecur� which, at the
                                        end, was called always �ficatum� and became �fegato�, �foie� etc. in the
                                        different modern languages.

                                        Best wishes,

                                        Robert

                                        From: mailto:sallygrain%40aol.com
                                        Sent: Monday, July 16, 2012 7:57 PM
                                        To: mailto:Apicius%40yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: Re: [Apicius] Garum and Liquamen (again)

                                        Hi

                                        Your approach to fish sauce is too simplistic I am afraid. Do you not even
                                        recognise the fact of a separate blood and viscera sauce different from the
                                        whole-fish sauce. They cannot both be garum!, the former black and bloody,
                                        the latter pale golden according to Pliny. They have different uses, the
                                        garon melan was used at table and so became a fashionable ingredient to
                                        discuss in satire, the cooking liquamen was only used in the kitchen by
                                        slaves and therefore was not recognised as a separate sauce by the elite.
                                        The tituli picti associated with amphorae from Pompeii and Rome reflect the
                                        frequent usage of liquamen in the 1st century along side garum. We find
                                        garum scombri flos and liquamen flos in contempory sites: they have to mean
                                        two separate sauces, there is no way out of that one!

                                        sally

                                        -----Original Message-----
                                        From: RM <mailto:apicius%40maierphil.de>;;
                                        To: Apicius <mailto:Apicius%40yahoogroups.com>;;
                                        Sent: Sun, 15 Jul 2012 22:24
                                        Subject: Re: [Apicius] Garum and Liquamen (again)

                                        Just a little correction and an addition: The Geoponika have been written
                                        down about 600 years after the Price Edict (not 800!). The word �garum� is
                                        found twice within the Apicius recipes, in 7, 13, 1 (with �liquamen� in the
                                        same recipe!) and Exc. 29 (according to Vollmer & Milham).

                                        Best regards

                                        RM

                                        From: RM
                                        Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 8:36 PM
                                        To: mailto:Apicius%40yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: Re: [Apicius] Garum and Liquamen (again)

                                        Well, we don�t know exactly when the Apicius collection has been compiled
                                        but it is quite sure that has been compiled from a base of earlier recipes
                                        from which about a third is to be considered to be from an original
                                        cookbook probabely written by the same Apicius who has been mentioned in
                                        Plinius� Naturalis Historia (see Brandt: �Untersuchungen zum r�mischen
                                        Kochbuch� in Philologus Suppl. XIX, 3). From the Historia Augusta we learn
                                        that Aelius Verus who died in 138 took three books into his bed: Amores by
                                        Ovid, Apicius and Martial. We may believe this or not. If we believe it
                                        there should have been an edition of Apicius at those times. I didn�t say
                                        that Apicius was the only one who ever mentioned �liquamen� � I said he was
                                        the only one who used it in this sense in antiquity, Vegetius and
                                        Pelagonius lived in very late antiquity, but you wouldn�t find the term
                                        before Columella where it signified just a liquid. The question is
                                        therefore if your �liquamen�, that may differ from �garum�, was invented
                                        after the 1st or 2nd century. There is no doubt that there were many
                                        different types and qualities of garum (�... , creveruntque genera ad
                                        infinitum, ...� Plin. NH 31, 95). Plinius tells us that Apicius used the so
                                        called �garum sociorum� which is just a type of garum. In his Naturalis
                                        Historia Plinius mentioned �garum� sometimes � liquamen never. I personally
                                        believe that Plinius did know very well what he was writing about in book
                                        31 where he describes the production of �garum� � there he calls it a
                                        �liquor� (not �liquamen� of course). What you can find in the Diocletian�s
                                        Price Edict are two terms (3.6): �garou ge�matos prwte�ou� in Greek,
                                        �liquaminis primi� in Latin � there the word �liquamen� appears as a simple
                                        translation of �garon� (why do you think it should be �garos�?). The
                                        Geoponika, of course, has been compiled 800 years later, using authors of
                                        the late antiquity but it is very interesting that in the Geoponika the
                                        Latin word �liquamen� appears twice as �t� kalo�menon likouamen� (=�the so
                                        called liquamen�) in the chapter "Garwn piohsis" (20, 46, 1+2).

                                        Well, I better stop here because it would end up with some kind of endless
                                        discussion. There is � in my opinion � no real evidence for any difference
                                        of liquamen and garum, especially if we consider the Price Edict and the
                                        Geoponika. I think �liquamen� is just a word that may have been introduced
                                        by people like Apicius as a terminus technicus to substitute �garum� in
                                        technical language and then spread more and more until Anthimus did only
                                        use the term �liquamen� ("Nam liquamen ex omni parte prohibimus."). Even
                                        the �so called liquamen� in the Geoponika leads to this direction.

                                        Best regards

                                        RM
                                        From: mailto:sallygrain%40aol.com
                                        Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 5:06 PM
                                        To: mailto:Apicius%40yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: Re: [Apicius] Garum and Liquamen (again)

                                        OK

                                        garum liquamen and the differences: i recently presented a paper at the
                                        British School at Rome to archaeologist of the fish trade in the Med. and
                                        therefore what follows is a pressi of what i said to them

                                        To start with you talk about Apicius as if he was the sole author and
                                        originator of the text when it is clear from our textual analysis that the
                                        recipe collection has multiple authors and they are slave cooks rather than
                                        a single gourmet. In terms of food at this level there were consumers and
                                        producers and it is the producers - the cooks - who we must trust to use
                                        the terminology correctly. You cannot argue that Apicius wrote this or that
                                        way, logically all the slave cooks wrote liquamen rather than garum for a
                                        reason. Equally you cannot place Apicius as a text in the late Empire
                                        reflecting a late usage for fish sauce. The terms used in it must reflect
                                        the way in which cooks expressed themselves throughout the classical
                                        period. The whole argument and justification for Vulgar Latin/Late Latin is
                                        based on elite usage. You say garum was the more commonplace term but in
                                        fact it is the other way round: Caelius Aurelianus says that the vulgar
                                        latin term in every day usage is liquamen. You also state that liquamen
                                        only occurs in Apicius but this is not the case. It is found in the Greek
                                        agricultural manual The Geoponica - you do all know that Andrew Dalby has
                                        recently published a new translation of this dont you ? - where it is a
                                        direct translation of the Greek garon but wait ...garon does not
                                        necessarily mean garum. It is also found frequently along with garum in the
                                        same veterinary recipe collections, particularly Vegetius and Pelagonius.
                                        (Pelagonius: liquamen: 9; 11.2; 13;98; 455; 457, garum: 428;13. Vegetius
                                        liquamen: 1.10.1; 1.17.10, 16; 2.91.2; 2.108.2; 2.132.4; 4.6.1, garum:
                                        2.28.8; 3.28.10). In Galen it is also clear that two sauces were used: he
                                        refers simply to garon many times but only once or twice to garon melan. We
                                        have two names and two sauces so there shouldn't have been a problem!

                                        (Pelagonius: liquamen: 9; 11.2; 13;98; 455; 457, garum: 428;13. Vegetius
                                        liquamen: 1.10.1; 1.17.10, 16; 2.91.2; 2.108.2; 2.132.4; 4.6.1, garum:
                                        2.28.8; 3.28.10). In Galen it is also clear that two sauces were used: he
                                        refers simply to garon many times but only once or twice to garon melan. We
                                        have two names and two sauces so there shouldn't have been a problem!

                                        Apicius - this is the title not the author - is an organic collection of
                                        recipes originally compiled, in it's earliest form, in Greek and we
                                        consider this to be in the late 1st century AD and possibly even earlier.
                                        We see no evidence of a formal publication date, only a finish date which
                                        is clearly 5/6th century. The chapter heading are in Greek and there are
                                        numerous terms that are not translated but transliterated i.e the Greek
                                        endings are converted into Latin endings so oenogaron: the Greek sauce made
                                        from the original Greek fish sauce and wine becomes oenogarum. Bare in mind
                                        the whole idea of fish sauce was originally Greek

                                        So if the cooks dont use garum qua garum one has to ask why? At this point
                                        I am pasting from the delivered paper

                                        What we first must do is acknowledge the presence of a blood and viscera
                                        sauce in the Ancient Mediterranean cuisine that we think of as Roman food.
                                        This sauce was a strong black and bloody condiment called in Greek garon
                                        melan or haimation that I believe was almost certainly handled by the
                                        consumer at table. This sauce was completely separate to the primary
                                        product in terms of archaeology (the amphora and fish bones) which was a
                                        cooking sauce made from whole-fish with extra viscera which provided
                                        enzymes which aided the liquefaction of the muscle tissue.
                                        The development and use of the primary product: a fish sauce made with
                                        whole fish, initially began in Greece and was a simple sauce made of very
                                        small fish (otherwise of no value) and salt used in everyday cooking. It is
                                        clear from references in 3rd century new comedy in Athens that this sauce
                                        was used with oil and vinegar or wine as a dressing for vegetables and
                                        pulses and was not considered particularly elite. My colleague Andrew Dalby
                                        has stated it to be a commonplace ingredient and it is noteworthy that
                                        Archestratus, the 2nd century Greek gourmet poet writing from Sicily about
                                        the best fish does not mention fish sauce at all. Later Galen in the 2nd
                                        Century AD is also suggesting the use of garos in dressing of oil and
                                        vinegar to accompany simple vegetables. The Apicius recipes collection
                                        includes a whole section on vegetables which are also largely accompanied
                                        by oil, wine and fish sauce. These simple blended sauces are basically like
                                        vinaigrette and are throughout the Apicius recipe text in various forms.
                                        The most common was an oenogarum a transliterated term from the Greek. In
                                        fact when oenogarum is translated into Latin - it is found in Ps. Gargilius
                                        Martialis recipe - it appears as Confectio liquaminis. So there rearly is
                                        no garum in Apicius. This means of cause that there is no blood and viscera
                                        garum, because as a table sauce it was used on food rather than in the
                                        cooking and was also used to make elite oenogarum that may have been
                                        blended at table by the gourmet or slaves attendants.

                                        This simple Greek whole fish sauce almost certainly came to Rome as garon
                                        transliterated into garum but was still this simple liquefied fish sauce.
                                        As fish sauce became popular in Rome the elite were concerned with
                                        differentiating their foods from everybody else�s and I believe they may
                                        have instigated new developments in fish sauce types, one of which was the
                                        blood and viscera sauce and one was the use of much larger fish that did
                                        have a market value such as mackerel and larger clupeidae and sparidae
                                        which could have been used as salted fish.
                                        I believe the confusion over the terminology occurred when the elite
                                        retained the term garum - the transliterated and now fashionable Greek term
                                        to designate their new table sauce made from blood and viscera and the
                                        manufacturer, trader , merchant and cook had to coin a new term in Latin to
                                        designate the original and commonplace fish sauce, called garon made from
                                        whole fish. This was liquamen, the derivation of which is �to liquefy so it
                                        is aptly titled.
                                        We have mentioned the absence of garum from Apicius but we must also
                                        mention the absence of the separate Latin blood garum from Diocletians
                                        price edict in 301 AD . Here liquamen is equivalent to garos not garum just
                                        as we find in the Geoponica. These two absences are of cause the primary
                                        reason for the 'single sauce hypothesis' advovated by Curtis. If however
                                        you see these absences as evidence that the blood garum was no longer
                                        sufficiently popular in the early 4th century AD to warrant its own price
                                        on the edict or a mention in the recipes, then the later dominance of
                                        liquamen is explained. In fact (a guess) I believe the elite blood viscera
                                        garum had a relatively small market in comparison to liquamen and was made
                                        to appear more important because of the unusually close view we get of the
                                        elite at table in the early empire through satire. It was still made in the
                                        late empire as we know Ausonius acquired a jar in the mid 4th century but
                                        it seems it was a special delivery and therefore probably not readily
                                        available in southern France, and he is also very confused as to what to
                                        call it!
                                        The original Greek sauce � garos equivalent to liquamen - remained the
                                        primary product. We can I think come to see how it was that later sources
                                        began to say that garum was liquamen. Caelius Aurelianus says that the
                                        vulgar latin term in every day usage is liquamen � I don�t think he means
                                        just the poor here - and the elite prefer garum but in principle it�s the
                                        same product. if Pliny can fail to see the two sauces when it was popular,
                                        when the blood sauce has become rare it would seem quite logical to revert
                                        to the earlier usage and make the assumption that everyone has - ancient
                                        and modern - that the Greek and Latin meant the same thing'.
                                        note: I have not pasted the bit from Pliny but he is the cause of most of
                                        the confusion as he conflates both sauces into one. His elite expensive
                                        garum is made from viscera and most interpretations of his definition of
                                        fish sauce presupposed that he also meant to say small fish as he goes on
                                        to suggest that allec was the residue of garum but the blood viscera sauce
                                        has no bones or fish paste to make an allec. Only the primary fish sauce
                                        generates a fish paste.
                                        Hope this helps. It is a theory i will own but a thoroughly rational and
                                        logical one according to the archaeologists (and Robert Curtis who has been
                                        an adviser), I spoke to and they will be moving forward in analysing
                                        amphorae shapes and fish bone residues with the idea that there were two
                                        basic types of sauce in the 1st century AD when all the archaeology is most
                                        prolific.

                                        Sally Grainger

                                        -----Original Message-----
                                        From: RM <mailto:apicius%40maierphil.de>;;;
                                        To: Apicius <mailto:Apicius%40yahoogroups.com>;;;
                                        Sent: Sat, 14 Jul 2012 14:05
                                        Subject: [Apicius] Garum and Liquamen (again)

                                        I am sorry, but are you really sure that there is any evidence for a
                                        difference between garum and the Apician �liquamen�? �liquamen� is a word
                                        used only by Apicius instead of the more common word �garum�. A good
                                        example is the following recipe:
                                        �Hydrogarata isicia sic facies: teres piper, ligusticum, pyrethrum
                                        minimum, suffundes liquamen. temperas aquam cisterninam, dum inducet,
                                        exinanies in caccabo, et tum isicia ad vaporem ignis pones, ut caleat, et
                                        sic sorbendum inferes.�
                                        This means that to make �hydrogarum� Apicius used �liquamen� et �aqua
                                        cisternina�. �liquamen� for Apicius is just a terminus technicus. The word
                                        �liquamen� has been used in antiquity just by Columella (who used it in a
                                        different context) and once by Flavius Vopiscus Syracusius on Aurelius
                                        where it meant �garum�. The hypothesis of a difference between garum and
                                        liquamen sounds interesting but I think Apicius just introduced the word
                                        �liquamen� as a t.t. in order to substitute the common word �garum�.

                                        Best regards

                                        RM

                                        From: mailto:sallygrain%40aol.com
                                        Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2012 1:49 PM
                                        To: mailto:Apicius%40yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: Re: [Apicius] Recent Cook Out

                                        good to know the dishes worked
                                        Can i just point out - as i am a bit of a stickler for such things - that
                                        the recipes in Apicius use the word liquamen rather than garum because they
                                        represent two different sauces - one whole-fish sauce, one a blood viscera
                                        fish sauce and I don't want to see an inaccurate ref that puports to be
                                        from my book where you have changed liquamen into garum in the belief that
                                        they are synonymous - they were not.

                                        thanks so much
                                        sally

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                                      • Phoenix
                                        Salve Iustino, I have a nice small crop of white goosefoot (lambs quarters) in my garden. You are welcome to it if it can help you with a second preparation
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Jul 21, 2012
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Salve Iustino,

                                          I have a nice small crop of white goosefoot (lambs' quarters) in my
                                          garden.
                                          You are welcome to it if it can help you with a second preparation for
                                          the C.L.L.

                                          It is very nice raw or cooked.

                                          Good luck with your purslane pickles.

                                          Vale,
                                          Demetria


                                          --- In Apicius@yahoogroups.com, Justin Mansfield <iustinus@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > >
                                          > > Justine jump in when ever you want!
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > I have been summoned. I just hope you're pronouncing "Justine" as
                                          three
                                          > syllables! ;)
                                          >
                                          > Sorry, I haven't had time to follow this debate in any detail: I'm
                                          rushing
                                          > around in my final days before the Conventiculum Latinum
                                          Lexintoniense,
                                          > which is of course when I have my annual Cena Romana (Incidentally I
                                          tried
                                          > making Columella's recipe for pickled purslane... but I suspect I did
                                          it
                                          > wrong. We'll see how it tastes when I open the jar) Not much focus to
                                          spare
                                          > on so detailed an argument.
                                          >
                                          > This just gets worse when I look at the text:
                                          >
                                          > (�In process of time, alex has become quite an object of luxury,
                                          and the
                                          > > various kinds that are now made are infinite in number. The same,
                                          too, with
                                          > > garum, which is now prepared in imitation of the colour of old
                                          honied wine,
                                          > > and so pleasantly flavoured as to admit of being taken as a drink'
                                          > > This is very poor translation i think - Justine jump in when ever
                                          you
                                          > > want! 'The same too' does not sound right at all for secuti garum
                                          The loeb
                                          > > has 'for instance' implying a single example ' garum for instance
                                          ...
                                          > > rather than suggesting that garum had multiple varieties as well.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Oy vey. My first instinct is indeed "for instance," but yeah, given
                                          that
                                          > its most basic meaning is "just as," I can see how "the same, too" is
                                          a
                                          > possibility. But as is so often the case with Pliny it's not so much
                                          a
                                          > question of what the word could or could not mean, the real problem is
                                          > trying to follow his stream of thought. For starters:
                                          >
                                          > *Vitium huius est allex atque inperfecta nec colata faex. coepit tamen
                                          et
                                          > privatim ex inutili pisciculo minimoque confici. *
                                          > Its blemish and unfinished, unstrained dregs is *allex*. But it was
                                          > originally made specifically from useless, tiny finish.
                                          >
                                          > What was originally made this way? On first reading it sounds like he
                                          means
                                          > *allex*. But I'm pretty sure the topic of this entire paragraph is
                                          fish
                                          > sauce in general (the *huius* of the first sentence), not the *vitium
                                          *thereof.
                                          > In other words, the "it" in the second sentence refers back not to
                                          *allex* but
                                          > rather the "Its" of the first sentence! I mean, why would he be
                                          talking
                                          > about what kind of fish they use to make lees with in *Forum Iulii*,
                                          right?
                                          > You don't set out to make *faex*, *faex* is a byproduct of something
                                          else.
                                          >
                                          > If you still think those sentences are only about *allex*, then yeah,
                                          he
                                          > must be saying something like "[*allex*] became a luxury, and its
                                          varieties
                                          > grew to be innumerable, *just as* [happened with] *garum*, which
                                          > has [nowadays] been diluted to the color of old *mulsum*, and such
                                          > sweetness that you could drink it."
                                          >
                                          > But if you accept that he's talking about fish sauce in general, he
                                          seems
                                          > to be saying "[fish sauce] became a luxury, and its varieties grew to
                                          be
                                          > innumerable, *for instance* [the variety of] *garum* which is diluted
                                          to
                                          > the color of old *mulsum*, and such sweetness that you could drink
                                          it."
                                          >
                                          > It seems to me pretty clear that the latter translation is preferable,
                                          and
                                          > this jibes well with my point that the rest of the paragraph makes
                                          better
                                          > sense if we assume the sentence about *allex* was essentially a
                                          > parenthetical gloss.
                                          >
                                          > I tell you, every time I read Pliny the Elder something like this
                                          happens:
                                          > every sentence in the paragraph could be interpreted in multiple ways,
                                          and
                                          > the key is finding the thread so that it all makes sense.
                                          >
                                          > As I said, I'm very distracted right now, so please forgive any
                                          sloppiness,
                                          > or inattention to what has already been said.
                                          >
                                          > Valete
                                          >
                                          > On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 12:06 PM, sallygrain@... wrote:
                                          >
                                          > > **
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > Hi
                                          > >
                                          > > 'So why shouldn�t Pliny be right? I am sure that there were not
                                          only the
                                          > > two forms of �garum� that you mentioned but a lot of other
                                          varieties'
                                          > >
                                          > > The varieties are determined by the species of fish, their quality
                                          and
                                          > > origin. The fish bone evidence from ship wrecks which I have studies
                                          > > extensively reveal tiny anchovy or sardine or a mixed variety of
                                          small
                                          > > clupiedae and sparidae and they would make one kind - the most basic
                                          i
                                          > > think - of fish sauce, while mackerel is common in fish sauce
                                          amphorae and
                                          > > the tituli picti make it clear this was the best. Apicius - the
                                          gourmet
                                          > > rather than the recipe text - suggest mullet or nd we can assume any
                                          other
                                          > > specified and selected fish would make a superior kind. The
                                          subsequent
                                          > > sauce would not be named by its fish type but by the process it
                                          underwent.
                                          > > To liquefy i.e. liquamen or the juice from them i.e. the blood and
                                          viscera
                                          > > sauce.
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > You still havnt explained to me how the manufacturer, merchant
                                          trader and
                                          > > cook was able to distinguish between the blood and viscera sauce and
                                          the
                                          > > whole fish variety. You cannot deny the existance of a blood viscera
                                          sauce
                                          > > - its in the Geoponica as a distinctly separate entity and it is
                                          also
                                          > > defined as 'luxury' Martial 'made from the blood of a still
                                          breathing
                                          > > mackerel' afirms its existance. As i said it matters not one jot
                                          what the
                                          > > stupid ill informed gourmet thinks he is eating - the manufacturer
                                          needs to
                                          > > be able to distinguish between them. You note that liquamen is rare
                                          and
                                          > > late but it is also only found in didactic texts written by the
                                          > > practitioner and producer - slave cook, vet, writers of agricultural
                                          > > material. The same kind of people as the manufacturer and merchant
                                          who need
                                          > > specific and precise terminology to identify their products. The
                                          absence of
                                          > > liquamen in elite literature as I have already said is due to the
                                          obvious
                                          > > fact that poets such as Martial etc consume garum at table and do
                                          not cook
                                          > > so they dont recognise the existence of a separate cooking sauce
                                          which is
                                          > > weaker.
                                          > >
                                          > > (�In process of time, alex has become quite an object of
                                          luxury, and the
                                          > > various kinds that are now made are infinite in number. The same,
                                          too, with
                                          > > garum, which is now prepared in imitation of the colour of old
                                          honied wine,
                                          > > and so pleasantly flavoured as to admit of being taken as a drink'
                                          > >
                                          > > This is very poor translation i think - Justine jump in when ever
                                          you
                                          > > want! 'The same too' does not sound right at all for secuti garum
                                          The loeb
                                          > > has 'for instance' implying a single example ' garum for instance
                                          ...
                                          > > rather than suggesting that garum had multiple varieties as well.
                                          > >
                                          > > 'this implies that there were other, less praised types of garum
                                          � and
                                          > > that intestina and other parts of the fish were used'
                                          > >
                                          > > You cannot separate the blood and viscera here and suggest that
                                          blood is
                                          > > valuable and viscera not - thats utterly confused. The
                                          > > most prized type of garum was made from mackerel viscera and blood
                                          with
                                          > > salt and nothing else.
                                          > >
                                          > > 'but the normal Latin word at the time of Ausonius was
                                          �liquamen� (which
                                          > > wasn�t an old Latin word and Ausonius obviously didn�t
                                          like it'
                                          > > You simply cannot say this, Its the worst kind of special pleading
                                          when
                                          > > your argument fails you. Ausonius didnt use the term liquamen
                                          because he
                                          > > didn't receive liquamen, he received garum He calls it liquor iste
                                          > > sociorum. 'that liquor of our allies' which directly links in with
                                          > > Martials' 'made from the blood of a still breathing mackerel' which
                                          he also
                                          > > calls garum sociorum, the most expensive kind of garum according to
                                          Pliny
                                          > > too, when garum is a blood/viscera sauce. Garum can also be cheap
                                          and
                                          > > cheerful and made from any old bit of fish blood and viscera.
                                          > >
                                          > > The crucial thing about the epigraphic evidence which you have
                                          failed to
                                          > > recognise is that in Pompeii there are amphorae with garum and there
                                          are
                                          > > amphorae with liquamen labels in the same context. This is
                                          indisputable
                                          > > evidence, that makes it absolutely clear, without a doubt, that for
                                          the
                                          > > people who made and bought fish sauce in Pompeii in 69 AD garum and
                                          > > liquamen represented different products. By the 4th century as i
                                          have
                                          > > already said the blood viscera sauce was insufficiently popular to
                                          warrant
                                          > > attention - in Apicius or the price edict and as a result the
                                          differences
                                          > > had ceased to mean anything which is why they appear to be the same
                                          in the
                                          > > late Empire
                                          > >
                                          > > all the best sally
                                          > >
                                          > > -----Original Message-----
                                          > > From: RM apicius@...
                                          > > To: Apicius Apicius@yahoogroups.com
                                          > > Sent: Thu, 19 Jul 2012 0:18
                                          > > Subject: Re: [Apicius] Garum and Liquamen (again)
                                          > >
                                          > > Sorry for the late answer. I wasn�t at home yesterday and
                                          therefore not
                                          > > able to sit down and reply immediately.
                                          > > Meanwhile I had a look at some editions of the Naturalis Historia
                                          � one by
                                          > > Roderich K�nig with German translation, the other the one by
                                          John Bostock
                                          > > et al. included in Perseus (
                                          > >
                                          http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.01\
                                          37%3Abook%3D31%3Achapter%3D44).
                                          > > Essentially those two interpreted the passage as to be referred not
                                          only to
                                          > > allex but also to garum (�In process of time, alex has become
                                          quite an
                                          > > object of luxury, and the various kinds that are now made are
                                          infinite in
                                          > > number. The same, too, with garum, which is now prepared in
                                          imitation of
                                          > > the colour of old honied wine, and so pleasantly flavoured as to
                                          admit of
                                          > > being taken as a drink.� from: The Natural History. Pliny the
                                          Elder. John
                                          > > Bostock, M.D., F.R.S. H.T. Riley, Esq., B.A. London. Taylor and
                                          Francis,
                                          > > Red Lion Court, Fleet Street. 1855.). So, at least, I am not
                                          hopelessly
                                          > > alone with my interpretation.
                                          > > Certainly there were a lot of different types of garum during and
                                          before
                                          > > the 1st century and even after. Martial cites the garum made from
                                          the blood
                                          > > of scomber, Plinius said that the most praised garum was indeed made
                                          from
                                          > > scomber � this implies that there were other, less praised
                                          types of garum �
                                          > > and that intestina and other parts of the fish were used. The
                                          fishermen of
                                          > > Manilius seem to use tunny. Horace mentioned garum �de sucis
                                          piscis� (Hor.
                                          > > Serm. 2, 8, 46). But those citations are all about garum, not about
                                          > > liquamen because the word �liquamen� was a very new
                                          creation in the 1st
                                          > > century that hadn�t made yet its way into the language of
                                          Pliny, Horace,
                                          > > Seneca and Martial. Ausonius said that he wasn�t used to and
                                          couldn�t say
                                          > > the Latin word (�nec solere nec posse dicere�) for
                                          �garum� and that those
                                          > > who knew well old Latin and were disgusted with Greek vocabulary
                                          > > (�scientissimi veterum et Graeca vocabula fastidientes�)
                                          hadn�t a Latin
                                          > > word for it. So he called it �liquor iste sociorum�
                                          instead � but the
                                          > > normal Latin word at the time of Ausonius was �liquamen�
                                          (which wasn�t an
                                          > > old Latin word and Ausonius obviously didn�t like it;
                                          �muria� has been
                                          > > mentioned in a similar context by Plinius in 31, 94 � probabely
                                          this muria
                                          > > wasn�t just salty water). And this is what we can deduce also
                                          from the
                                          > > Price Edict: �garum� is doubtlessly a Greek word, equal to
                                          �garon�, and the
                                          > > correct Latin translation is �liquamen� at those times, i.
                                          e. at the
                                          > > beginning of the 4th century. As it is a legal text, what we find in
                                          the
                                          > > Price Edict is certainly not an arbitrary appellation. So if therein
                                          > > �liquamen� is the translation of �garon� (which
                                          is identical to the Latin
                                          > > �garum� which, according to Ausonius, is still a Greek
                                          word) why should we
                                          > > believe that there was a fundamental difference between those two?
                                          There
                                          > > were certainly varieties that may have had different trade names
                                          sometimes
                                          > > but the Geoponika show us that in late antiquity the word
                                          �likouamen� could
                                          > > substitute the original �garon� even in Greek. The same,
                                          of course in Apic.
                                          > > 7, 13, 1: �ita ut piper cum liquamine teres� is an
                                          specification for �in
                                          > > garo piper<ato>� (I prefer this version because the other one
                                          is
                                          > > grammatically disputable and we have Petronius using a �garum
                                          piperatum� in
                                          > > Sat. 36, 3). Probabely this is an old recipe of the 1st century
                                          where
                                          > > someone added the explanation because he was in doubt if the people
                                          could
                                          > > understand what �garum piperatum� meant.
                                          > > From the references we have we can derive that the word
                                          �liquamen� has
                                          > > been created in the 1st century and was used more and more �
                                          perhaps driven
                                          > > by culinary experts like Apicius � until being an equivalent of
                                          the word
                                          > > �garum� at the beginning of the 4th century even in legal
                                          texts like the
                                          > > Price Edict. It has also been accepted as a synonym of
                                          �garon� in Greek as
                                          > > we see from the Geoponika. There are some detailled descriptions of
                                          the
                                          > > production of �garum� but only in the Geoponika we find
                                          the same for
                                          > > �likouamen� which in that context is to be considered a
                                          synonym of �garon�.
                                          > > The word �liquamen� is used in a similar way � i.e.
                                          as a translation of
                                          > > �garum� or �garon� � in the Price Edict and
                                          in Apic. 7.13.1. Well, we may
                                          > > get much more examplesfor �liquamen� and �garum�
                                          out of the epigraphic data
                                          > > base (http://oracle-vm.ku-eichstaett.de:8888/epigr/epigraphik_de)
                                          but we
                                          > > wouldn�t find many differences between �liquamen� and
                                          �garum� there. We
                                          > > have �liquamen optimum scombri� and �garum flos
                                          scombri� and so on. From my
                                          > > point of view it is not possible to clearly distinguish the both,
                                          �garum�
                                          > > and �liquamen�, as both appear to be exchangeable in
                                          various contexts. They
                                          > > vary in frequency of occurrence: �Garum� was used more
                                          frequently before
                                          > > the 2nd century, �liquamen� was used more frequently from
                                          the end of the
                                          > > 1st century.
                                          > >
                                          > > Best wishes,
                                          > >
                                          > > Robert
                                          > >
                                          > > From: sallygrain@...
                                          > > Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 2:11 PM
                                          > > To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
                                          > > Subject: Re: [Apicius] Garum and Liquamen (again)
                                          > >
                                          > > Your ref to Pliny is as follows in English for the rest ' then allec
                                          > > became a luxury and its various kinds have come to be inumerable'
                                          These
                                          > > refer to enumerable kinds of allec or fish paste made from sea food
                                          and not
                                          > > neccesarily the liquid fish sauce derived from one kind of allec.
                                          The
                                          > > liquid fish sauce was not enumerable in kind but basically 2 types
                                          or 3 if
                                          > > you include muria 1, liquefied whole fish sauce. 2 fish blood and
                                          viscera
                                          > > 3. brine from salted fish which corresponds to coluratura die alici
                                          from
                                          > > the Naples area as this is made with eviscerated salted anchovy.
                                          > >
                                          > > Ultimately then, you are basing your argument that liquamen is not a
                                          > > synonym for garum but is for garon on Apicius 7.13.1 which is one
                                          recipes
                                          > > out of 450+ That garum and liquamen appear in this recipes and only
                                          this
                                          > > one suggest to me that the pepper is ground with liquamen and them
                                          served
                                          > > with garum at table. Otherwise it makes no sence to use both terms.
                                          If they
                                          > > are there because whome ever wanted to translate the one with the
                                          other we
                                          > > would at least find this construction - using both terms more often
                                          in the
                                          > > rest of the text. The use of garum in the compound terms oenogarum,
                                          > > hydrogarum etc is not relavant as they are transliterated Greek.
                                          > >
                                          > > You almost get it - The generic term only exists in Greek In latin
                                          > > technically there is no generic term but as they are so similar many
                                          > > ancient as well as modern scholars assume that the generic function
                                          was
                                          > > transferred to the Latin when it was translated. I will even allow
                                          that
                                          > > some ancients used garum when they actually meant liquamen but the
                                          > > manufacturer, trader, merchant and cook never would have got them
                                          mixed up
                                          > > - one was black and bloody, dark and strong used in drops while the
                                          other
                                          > > was pale brown and used in quantity. There simply had to be a way to
                                          > > distinguish them in trade. The acetabulum little vinegar cup in some
                                          > > recipes (p 83 ff our edition) hold 60ml and was blended with a
                                          similar
                                          > > amount of wine and fish sauce. The resulting oenogarum was delicious
                                          as i
                                          > > am sure you know. I have made blood garum and it is disgusting in
                                          those
                                          > > quantities. Check out http://www.ishiri.jp/en/ for the Japanese
                                          squid
                                          > > blood and viscera fish sauce which is pitch black and smells
                                          distinctly of
                                          > > blood - iron in fact, a frind who was a nurse told me it smells of
                                          digested
                                          > > blood after smelling the human gut in surgery.
                                          > >
                                          > > You do know Ausonius' letter I am sure. He specifically says there
                                          is no
                                          > > latin word that he can use instead of garum which he rejects as its
                                          Greek
                                          > > in origin and he rejects Greek words. If liquamen was the equivelent
                                          of
                                          > > garum in Latin he would have no problem. Instead of cause he fuels
                                          our
                                          > > confussion with the use of muria which we cannot get tied up in now.
                                          > >
                                          > > sally
                                          > >
                                          > > -----Original Message-----
                                          > > From: RM <mailto:apicius%40maierphil.de>;
                                          > > To: Apicius <mailto:Apicius%40yahoogroups.com>;
                                          > > Sent: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 0:15
                                          > > Subject: Re: [Apicius] Garum and Liquamen (again)
                                          > >
                                          > > Hi Sally,
                                          > >
                                          > > the fact that a lot of differt types of �garum� existed is
                                          obviously true
                                          > > but it is not my idea. This has already been reported by Pliny in
                                          the half
                                          > > sentence I cited before: �... , creveruntque genera ad
                                          infinitum, ...�
                                          > > (Plin. NH 31, 95). So why shouldn�t Pliny be right? I am sure
                                          that there
                                          > > were not only the two forms of �garum� that you mentioned
                                          but a lot of
                                          > > other varieties, too. So why shouldn�t they have been sold
                                          eventually under
                                          > > the same name �garum�? In the Price Edict and even in the
                                          Geoponika
                                          > > �liquamen� (or in Greek letters �likouamen�) is
                                          clearly a synonym /
                                          > > translation of the Greek word garon. The Price Edict has a first and
                                          a
                                          > > second quality of garon / liquamen. The name of both qualities was
                                          the same
                                          > > but to produce different qualities probabely the ingredients were
                                          somewhat
                                          > > different. And then there is also the Apicius recipe 7, 13, 1 garum
                                          and
                                          > > liquamen do mean exactly the same: �fungi farnei: elixi,
                                          calidi, exsiccati
                                          > > in garo piper<ato> accipiuntur, ita ut piper cum liquamine
                                          teres.� � I
                                          > > cited this from my own Apicius edition where it is numbered 7, 15, 1
                                          (ed.
                                          > > Robert Maier, Reclam, Stuttgart 1991), the text of your edition has
                                          �piper�
                                          > > instead of �piper<ato>�. Unfortunately Manilius
                                          doesn�t tell us the names
                                          > > of what his fishermen were creating in the Astronomica 5, 667 sqq.
                                          > > To conclude: I think it�s an alluring hypothesis to believe in
                                          a real
                                          > > difference between �garum� and �liquamen� but
                                          it�s a hypothesis that lacks
                                          > > evidence. As we can deduce from the Price Edict and the Geoponika
                                          > > �liquamen� was a synonym at least of the Greek
                                          �garon� and probabely also
                                          > > of the Roman �garum�, as we see in Apic. 7, 13, 1. What we
                                          eventually could
                                          > > assume is that �liquamen� in some contexts might have been
                                          understood as a
                                          > > specific quality of �garum� (some filtered high quality
                                          �garum�) but there
                                          > > is certainly no general distinction. On the amphorae one should
                                          expect some
                                          > > trade names, as we use today the word �balsamico� for a
                                          specific type of
                                          > > vinegar, while the product class remains �vinegar�. So in
                                          our case the
                                          > > product class would be �garum� including more specific
                                          appellations like
                                          > > �garum sociorum�, �garum scombri�,
                                          �liquamen� etc. At the end �liquamen�
                                          > > was used as a general term (because everyone tends to use only the
                                          very
                                          > > best quality), just as it happened in the case of �iecur�
                                          which, at the
                                          > > end, was called always �ficatum� and became
                                          �fegato�, �foie� etc. in the
                                          > > different modern languages.
                                          > >
                                          > > Best wishes,
                                          > >
                                          > > Robert
                                          > >
                                          > > From: mailto:sallygrain%40aol.com
                                          > > Sent: Monday, July 16, 2012 7:57 PM
                                          > > To: mailto:Apicius%40yahoogroups.com
                                          > > Subject: Re: [Apicius] Garum and Liquamen (again)
                                          > >
                                          > > Hi
                                          > >
                                          > > Your approach to fish sauce is too simplistic I am afraid. Do you
                                          not even
                                          > > recognise the fact of a separate blood and viscera sauce different
                                          from the
                                          > > whole-fish sauce. They cannot both be garum!, the former black and
                                          bloody,
                                          > > the latter pale golden according to Pliny. They have different uses,
                                          the
                                          > > garon melan was used at table and so became a fashionable ingredient
                                          to
                                          > > discuss in satire, the cooking liquamen was only used in the kitchen
                                          by
                                          > > slaves and therefore was not recognised as a separate sauce by the
                                          elite.
                                          > > The tituli picti associated with amphorae from Pompeii and Rome
                                          reflect the
                                          > > frequent usage of liquamen in the 1st century along side garum. We
                                          find
                                          > > garum scombri flos and liquamen flos in contempory sites: they have
                                          to mean
                                          > > two separate sauces, there is no way out of that one!
                                          > >
                                          > > sally
                                          > >
                                          > > -----Original Message-----
                                          > > From: RM <mailto:apicius%40maierphil.de>;;
                                          > > To: Apicius <mailto:Apicius%40yahoogroups.com>;;
                                          > > Sent: Sun, 15 Jul 2012 22:24
                                          > > Subject: Re: [Apicius] Garum and Liquamen (again)
                                          > >
                                          > > Just a little correction and an addition: The Geoponika have been
                                          written
                                          > > down about 600 years after the Price Edict (not 800!). The word
                                          �garum� is
                                          > > found twice within the Apicius recipes, in 7, 13, 1 (with
                                          �liquamen� in the
                                          > > same recipe!) and Exc. 29 (according to Vollmer & Milham).
                                          > >
                                          > > Best regards
                                          > >
                                          > > RM
                                          > >
                                          > > From: RM
                                          > > Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 8:36 PM
                                          > > To: mailto:Apicius%40yahoogroups.com
                                          > > Subject: Re: [Apicius] Garum and Liquamen (again)
                                          > >
                                          > > Well, we don�t know exactly when the Apicius collection has
                                          been compiled
                                          > > but it is quite sure that has been compiled from a base of earlier
                                          recipes
                                          > > from which about a third is to be considered to be from an original
                                          > > cookbook probabely written by the same Apicius who has been
                                          mentioned in
                                          > > Plinius� Naturalis Historia (see Brandt: �Untersuchungen
                                          zum r�mischen
                                          > > Kochbuch� in Philologus Suppl. XIX, 3). From the Historia
                                          Augusta we learn
                                          > > that Aelius Verus who died in 138 took three books into his bed:
                                          Amores by
                                          > > Ovid, Apicius and Martial. We may believe this or not. If we believe
                                          it
                                          > > there should have been an edition of Apicius at those times. I
                                          didn�t say
                                          > > that Apicius was the only one who ever mentioned
                                          �liquamen� � I said he was
                                          > > the only one who used it in this sense in antiquity, Vegetius and
                                          > > Pelagonius lived in very late antiquity, but you wouldn�t find
                                          the term
                                          > > before Columella where it signified just a liquid. The question is
                                          > > therefore if your �liquamen�, that may differ from
                                          �garum�, was invented
                                          > > after the 1st or 2nd century. There is no doubt that there were many
                                          > > different types and qualities of garum (�... , creveruntque
                                          genera ad
                                          > > infinitum, ...� Plin. NH 31, 95). Plinius tells us that Apicius
                                          used the so
                                          > > called �garum sociorum� which is just a type of garum. In
                                          his Naturalis
                                          > > Historia Plinius mentioned �garum� sometimes �
                                          liquamen never. I personally
                                          > > believe that Plinius did know very well what he was writing about in
                                          book
                                          > > 31 where he describes the production of �garum� �
                                          there he calls it a
                                          > > �liquor� (not �liquamen� of course). What you
                                          can find in the Diocletian�s
                                          > > Price Edict are two terms (3.6): �garou ge�matos
                                          prwte�ou� in Greek,
                                          > > �liquaminis primi� in Latin � there the word
                                          �liquamen� appears as a simple
                                          > > translation of �garon� (why do you think it should be
                                          �garos�?). The
                                          > > Geoponika, of course, has been compiled 800 years later, using
                                          authors of
                                          > > the late antiquity but it is very interesting that in the Geoponika
                                          the
                                          > > Latin word �liquamen� appears twice as �t�
                                          kalo�menon likouamen� (=�the so
                                          > > called liquamen�) in the chapter "Garwn piohsis" (20, 46, 1+2).
                                          > >
                                          > > Well, I better stop here because it would end up with some kind of
                                          endless
                                          > > discussion. There is � in my opinion � no real evidence
                                          for any difference
                                          > > of liquamen and garum, especially if we consider the Price Edict and
                                          the
                                          > > Geoponika. I think �liquamen� is just a word that may have
                                          been introduced
                                          > > by people like Apicius as a terminus technicus to substitute
                                          �garum� in
                                          > > technical language and then spread more and more until Anthimus did
                                          only
                                          > > use the term �liquamen� ("Nam liquamen ex omni parte
                                          prohibimus."). Even
                                          > > the �so called liquamen� in the Geoponika leads to this
                                          direction.
                                          > >
                                          > > Best regards
                                          > >
                                          > > RM
                                          > > From: mailto:sallygrain%40aol.com
                                          > > Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 5:06 PM
                                          > > To: mailto:Apicius%40yahoogroups.com
                                          > > Subject: Re: [Apicius] Garum and Liquamen (again)
                                          > >
                                          > > OK
                                          > >
                                          > > garum liquamen and the differences: i recently presented a paper at
                                          the
                                          > > British School at Rome to archaeologist of the fish trade in the
                                          Med. and
                                          > > therefore what follows is a pressi of what i said to them
                                          > >
                                          > > To start with you talk about Apicius as if he was the sole author
                                          and
                                          > > originator of the text when it is clear from our textual analysis
                                          that the
                                          > > recipe collection has multiple authors and they are slave cooks
                                          rather than
                                          > > a single gourmet. In terms of food at this level there were
                                          consumers and
                                          > > producers and it is the producers - the cooks - who we must trust to
                                          use
                                          > > the terminology correctly. You cannot argue that Apicius wrote this
                                          or that
                                          > > way, logically all the slave cooks wrote liquamen rather than garum
                                          for a
                                          > > reason. Equally you cannot place Apicius as a text in the late
                                          Empire
                                          > > reflecting a late usage for fish sauce. The terms used in it must
                                          reflect
                                          > > the way in which cooks expressed themselves throughout the classical
                                          > > period. The whole argument and justification for Vulgar Latin/Late
                                          Latin is
                                          > > based on elite usage. You say garum was the more commonplace term
                                          but in
                                          > > fact it is the other way round: Caelius Aurelianus says that the
                                          vulgar
                                          > > latin term in every day usage is liquamen. You also state that
                                          liquamen
                                          > > only occurs in Apicius but this is not the case. It is found in the
                                          Greek
                                          > > agricultural manual The Geoponica - you do all know that Andrew
                                          Dalby has
                                          > > recently published a new translation of this dont you ? - where it
                                          is a
                                          > > direct translation of the Greek garon but wait ...garon does not
                                          > > necessarily mean garum. It is also found frequently along with garum
                                          in the
                                          > > same veterinary recipe collections, particularly Vegetius and
                                          Pelagonius.
                                          > > (Pelagonius: liquamen: 9; 11.2; 13;98; 455; 457, garum: 428;13.
                                          Vegetius
                                          > > liquamen: 1.10.1; 1.17.10, 16; 2.91.2; 2.108.2; 2.132.4; 4.6.1,
                                          garum:
                                          > > 2.28.8; 3.28.10). In Galen it is also clear that two sauces were
                                          used: he
                                          > > refers simply to garon many times but only once or twice to garon
                                          melan. We
                                          > > have two names and two sauces so there shouldn't have been a
                                          problem!
                                          > >
                                          > > (Pelagonius: liquamen: 9; 11.2; 13;98; 455; 457, garum: 428;13.
                                          Vegetius
                                          > > liquamen: 1.10.1; 1.17.10, 16; 2.91.2; 2.108.2; 2.132.4; 4.6.1,
                                          garum:
                                          > > 2.28.8; 3.28.10). In Galen it is also clear that two sauces were
                                          used: he
                                          > > refers simply to garon many times but only once or twice to garon
                                          melan. We
                                          > > have two names and two sauces so there shouldn't have been a
                                          problem!
                                          > >
                                          > > Apicius - this is the title not the author - is an organic
                                          collection of
                                          > > recipes originally compiled, in it's earliest form, in Greek and we
                                          > > consider this to be in the late 1st century AD and possibly even
                                          earlier.
                                          > > We see no evidence of a formal publication date, only a finish date
                                          which
                                          > > is clearly 5/6th century. The chapter heading are in Greek and there
                                          are
                                          > > numerous terms that are not translated but transliterated i.e the
                                          Greek
                                          > > endings are converted into Latin endings so oenogaron: the Greek
                                          sauce made
                                          > > from the original Greek fish sauce and wine becomes oenogarum. Bare
                                          in mind
                                          > > the whole idea of fish sauce was originally Greek
                                          > >
                                          > > So if the cooks dont use garum qua garum one has to ask why? At this
                                          point
                                          > > I am pasting from the delivered paper
                                          > >
                                          > > What we first must do is acknowledge the presence of a blood and
                                          viscera
                                          > > sauce in the Ancient Mediterranean cuisine that we think of as Roman
                                          food.
                                          > > This sauce was a strong black and bloody condiment called in Greek
                                          garon
                                          > > melan or haimation that I believe was almost certainly handled by
                                          the
                                          > > consumer at table. This sauce was completely separate to the primary
                                          > > product in terms of archaeology (the amphora and fish bones) which
                                          was a
                                          > > cooking sauce made from whole-fish with extra viscera which provided
                                          > > enzymes which aided the liquefaction of the muscle tissue.
                                          > > The development and use of the primary product: a fish sauce made
                                          with
                                          > > whole fish, initially began in Greece and was a simple sauce made of
                                          very
                                          > > small fish (otherwise of no value) and salt used in everyday
                                          cooking. It is
                                          > > clear from references in 3rd century new comedy in Athens that this
                                          sauce
                                          > > was used with oil and vinegar or wine as a dressing for vegetables
                                          and
                                          > > pulses and was not considered particularly elite. My colleague
                                          Andrew Dalby
                                          > > has stated it to be a commonplace ingredient and it is noteworthy
                                          that
                                          > > Archestratus, the 2nd century Greek gourmet poet writing from Sicily
                                          about
                                          > > the best fish does not mention fish sauce at all. Later Galen in the
                                          2nd
                                          > > Century AD is also suggesting the use of garos in dressing of oil
                                          and
                                          > > vinegar to accompany simple vegetables. The Apicius recipes
                                          collection
                                          > > includes a whole section on vegetables which are also largely
                                          accompanied
                                          > > by oil, wine and fish sauce. These simple blended sauces are
                                          basically like
                                          > > vinaigrette and are throughout the Apicius recipe text in various
                                          forms.
                                          > > The most common was an oenogarum a transliterated term from the
                                          Greek. In
                                          > > fact when oenogarum is translated into Latin - it is found in Ps.
                                          Gargilius
                                          > > Martialis recipe - it appears as Confectio liquaminis. So there
                                          rearly is
                                          > > no garum in Apicius. This means of cause that there is no blood and
                                          viscera
                                          > > garum, because as a table sauce it was used on food rather than in
                                          the
                                          > > cooking and was also used to make elite oenogarum that may have been
                                          > > blended at table by the gourmet or slaves attendants.
                                          > >
                                          > > This simple Greek whole fish sauce almost certainly came to Rome as
                                          garon
                                          > > transliterated into garum but was still this simple liquefied fish
                                          sauce.
                                          > > As fish sauce became popular in Rome the elite were concerned with
                                          > > differentiating their foods from everybody else�s and I believe
                                          they may
                                          > > have instigated new developments in fish sauce types, one of which
                                          was the
                                          > > blood and viscera sauce and one was the use of much larger fish that
                                          did
                                          > > have a market value such as mackerel and larger clupeidae and
                                          sparidae
                                          > > which could have been used as salted fish.
                                          > > I believe the confusion over the terminology occurred when the elite
                                          > > retained the term garum - the transliterated and now fashionable
                                          Greek term
                                          > > to designate their new table sauce made from blood and viscera and
                                          the
                                          > > manufacturer, trader , merchant and cook had to coin a new term in
                                          Latin to
                                          > > designate the original and commonplace fish sauce, called garon made
                                          from
                                          > > whole fish. This was liquamen, the derivation of which is �to
                                          liquefy so it
                                          > > is aptly titled.
                                          > > We have mentioned the absence of garum from Apicius but we must also
                                          > > mention the absence of the separate Latin blood garum from
                                          Diocletians
                                          > > price edict in 301 AD . Here liquamen is equivalent to garos not
                                          garum just
                                          > > as we find in the Geoponica. These two absences are of cause the
                                          primary
                                          > > reason for the 'single sauce hypothesis' advovated by Curtis. If
                                          however
                                          > > you see these absences as evidence that the blood garum was no
                                          longer
                                          > > sufficiently popular in the early 4th century AD to warrant its own
                                          price
                                          > > on the edict or a mention in the recipes, then the later dominance
                                          of
                                          > > liquamen is explained. In fact (a guess) I believe the elite blood
                                          viscera
                                          > > garum had a relatively small market in comparison to liquamen and
                                          was made
                                          > > to appear more important because of the unusually close view we get
                                          of the
                                          > > elite at table in the early empire through satire. It was still made
                                          in the
                                          > > late empire as we know Ausonius acquired a jar in the mid 4th
                                          century but
                                          > > it seems it was a special delivery and therefore probably not
                                          readily
                                          > > available in southern France, and he is also very confused as to
                                          what to
                                          > > call it!
                                          > > The original Greek sauce � garos equivalent to liquamen -
                                          remained the
                                          > > primary product. We can I think come to see how it was that later
                                          sources
                                          > > began to say that garum was liquamen. Caelius Aurelianus says that
                                          the
                                          > > vulgar latin term in every day usage is liquamen � I don�t
                                          think he means
                                          > > just the poor here - and the elite prefer garum but in principle
                                          it�s the
                                          > > same product. if Pliny can fail to see the two sauces when it was
                                          popular,
                                          > > when the blood sauce has become rare it would seem quite logical to
                                          revert
                                          > > to the earlier usage and make the assumption that everyone has -
                                          ancient
                                          > > and modern - that the Greek and Latin meant the same thing'.
                                          > > note: I have not pasted the bit from Pliny but he is the cause of
                                          most of
                                          > > the confusion as he conflates both sauces into one. His elite
                                          expensive
                                          > > garum is made from viscera and most interpretations of his
                                          definition of
                                          > > fish sauce presupposed that he also meant to say small fish as he
                                          goes on
                                          > > to suggest that allec was the residue of garum but the blood viscera
                                          sauce
                                          > > has no bones or fish paste to make an allec. Only the primary fish
                                          sauce
                                          > > generates a fish paste.
                                          > > Hope this helps. It is a theory i will own but a thoroughly rational
                                          and
                                          > > logical one according to the archaeologists (and Robert Curtis who
                                          has been
                                          > > an adviser), I spoke to and they will be moving forward in analysing
                                          > > amphorae shapes and fish bone residues with the idea that there were
                                          two
                                          > > basic types of sauce in the 1st century AD when all the archaeology
                                          is most
                                          > > prolific.
                                          > >
                                          > > Sally Grainger
                                          > >
                                          > > -----Original Message-----
                                          > > From: RM <mailto:apicius%40maierphil.de>;;;
                                          > > To: Apicius <mailto:Apicius%40yahoogroups.com>;;;
                                          > > Sent: Sat, 14 Jul 2012 14:05
                                          > > Subject: [Apicius] Garum and Liquamen (again)
                                          > >
                                          > > I am sorry, but are you really sure that there is any evidence for a
                                          > > difference between garum and the Apician �liquamen�?
                                          �liquamen� is a word
                                          > > used only by Apicius instead of the more common word
                                          �garum�. A good
                                          > > example is the following recipe:
                                          > > �Hydrogarata isicia sic facies: teres piper, ligusticum,
                                          pyrethrum
                                          > > minimum, suffundes liquamen. temperas aquam cisterninam, dum
                                          inducet,
                                          > > exinanies in caccabo, et tum isicia ad vaporem ignis pones, ut
                                          caleat, et
                                          > > sic sorbendum inferes.�
                                          > > This means that to make �hydrogarum� Apicius used
                                          �liquamen� et �aqua
                                          > > cisternina�. �liquamen� for Apicius is just a
                                          terminus technicus. The word
                                          > > �liquamen� has been used in antiquity just by Columella
                                          (who used it in a
                                          > > different context) and once by Flavius Vopiscus Syracusius on
                                          Aurelius
                                          > > where it meant �garum�. The hypothesis of a difference
                                          between garum and
                                          > > liquamen sounds interesting but I think Apicius just introduced the
                                          word
                                          > > �liquamen� as a t.t. in order to substitute the common
                                          word �garum�.
                                          > >
                                          > > Best regards
                                          > >
                                          > > RM
                                          > >
                                          > > From: mailto:sallygrain%40aol.com
                                          > > Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2012 1:49 PM
                                          > > To: mailto:Apicius%40yahoogroups.com
                                          > > Subject: Re: [Apicius] Recent Cook Out
                                          > >
                                          > > good to know the dishes worked
                                          > > Can i just point out - as i am a bit of a stickler for such things -
                                          that
                                          > > the recipes in Apicius use the word liquamen rather than garum
                                          because they
                                          > > represent two different sauces - one whole-fish sauce, one a blood
                                          viscera
                                          > > fish sauce and I don't want to see an inaccurate ref that puports to
                                          be
                                          > > from my book where you have changed liquamen into garum in the
                                          belief that
                                          > > they are synonymous - they were not.
                                          > >
                                          > > thanks so much
                                          > > sally
                                          > >
                                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          > >
                                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          > >
                                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          > >
                                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          > >
                                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          > >
                                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          > >
                                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          > >
                                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          > >
                                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          >
                                        • Justin Mansfield
                                          A quick reply while my conditum melancholicis cools down. Sally, not to impugn my own impartiality in this discussion, but generally if you say something about
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Jul 21, 2012
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                                            A quick reply while my conditum melancholicis cools down.

                                            Sally, not to impugn my own impartiality in this discussion, but generally
                                            if you say something about fish-fermented products in the Roman Empire, I
                                            am inclined to defer to you. You are, as far as I'm concerned, the expert
                                            on the topic, and as I've already made abundantly clear, I tend to find
                                            Pliny a difficult read, for reasons not entirely related to his Latin, and
                                            this is doubly so when I am reading a paragraph out of context, and on the
                                            fly.

                                            However, this does leave me looking again at his paragraph on the topic, a
                                            bit confused. It seems like the first sentence is definitely about allex
                                            (since, you know, he names it specifically), and it seems generally agreed
                                            that "ad colorem ... dilutum" refers to garum (as opposed to allex). And it
                                            seems to be generally assumed that the reference to kosher products would
                                            be about garum, or fish-sauce in general. But then in the last sentence he
                                            explicitly mentions allex again (where he mentions oysters, sea urchins,
                                            jelly fish, mullet livers, and so on). So I don't know what to tell you.

                                            Futhermore, I'm not sure how you're taking that *sicuti*. You suggested
                                            that "for instance" would be a better translation here than "just as," but
                                            then we seem to be implying that diluted garum is a type of allex, which I
                                            know you don't think.

                                            Let's have a go at the whole paragraph, for those who don't have Latin.
                                            I'll avoid out *sicuti* problem by using "like," which is just about as
                                            ambiguous in English ;)

                                            "Its blemish and unfinished, unstrained dregs is *allex*. But it was
                                            originally made specifically from useless, tiny fish. The Greeks call our *
                                            apua* (≈"whitebait") *aphye*, because this little fish is born from rain.
                                            The inhabitants of Forum Julii (Fréjus) call the fish from which they make
                                            it *lupus* ("wolf" -- according to Dalby, the European seabass). Then it became
                                            a luxury, and its varieties grew to be innumerable, like *garum*, which has
                                            been diluted to the color of old *mulsum*, and such sweetness that you
                                            could drink it. And another one is dedicated to the supertstition of
                                            purity, and holy rites of the Jews, which is made from scaleless fish (um,
                                            Pliny I think you have that backwards...). In this way *allex* has arrived
                                            at oysters, urchins, jellyfish, mullet livers, and in countless ways salt
                                            has begun to decay for the tastes of the gullet."

                                            ... that last sentence is particularly hard. I think it's just a fancy way
                                            of saying what he's already said: there's a lot of variety.


                                            On Sat, Jul 21, 2012 at 12:27 PM, <sallygrain@...> wrote:

                                            > **
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Hi justine and all
                                            >
                                            > this is getting wonderfully complicated but as i have always wanted to get
                                            > to grips with what Pliny says here i do think we might continue if no one
                                            > minds ? Take care of your feast first by all means! Hope it goes well.
                                            >
                                            > Your theory is probably not on the case as it is pretty certain that allec
                                            > was made specifically, that was somewhat the point of the
                                            > sentance. It was a residue - ie a fish paste derived from the manufacture
                                            > of fish sauce and now it is being made especially from very small fish -
                                            > tiny 'born of rain ' he says which means no bones at all. It resembles
                                            > pissalat - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pissalat and anchovy pate
                                            > generally as it is not fermented and made to be a fish paste. There are a
                                            > few ref to this product becoming a desirable item at table though it is
                                            > always difficult to comprehend. Martial epi gram III. 77 where capers and
                                            > onions are served with allec. There is another but i cannot find it where a
                                            > women devoures a platter of allec. He then goes on to say that allec was
                                            > then a luxury item when made from bone free sea food such as oysters and
                                            > mullet livers etc.
                                            >
                                            > So i would maintain that the allec was still enumerable i.e. made with
                                            > every kind of fish and sea food and that seems to be the point here.
                                            >
                                            > i have some what lost the point of the original argument - no - it was
                                            > that garum or liquamen could be enumerable in kind but i would maintain
                                            > that the differences are all about what kind of fish are used - the process
                                            > remains either to liquefy = liquamen or to take the juice from = blood
                                            > viscera garum
                                            >
                                            > sally
                                            >
                                            > -----Original Message-----
                                            > From: Justin Mansfield <iustinus@...>
                                            > To: Apicius <Apicius@yahoogroups.com>
                                            > Sent: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 18:55
                                            > Subject: Re: [Apicius] Garum and Liquamen (again)
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            > Justine jump in when ever you want!
                                            >
                                            > have been summoned. I just hope you're pronouncing "Justine" as three
                                            > yllables! ;)
                                            > Sorry, I haven't had time to follow this debate in any detail: I'm rushing
                                            > round in my final days before the Conventiculum Latinum Lexintoniense,
                                            > hich is of course when I have my annual Cena Romana (Incidentally I tried
                                            > aking Columella's recipe for pickled purslane... but I suspect I did it
                                            > rong. We'll see how it tastes when I open the jar) Not much focus to spare
                                            > n so detailed an argument.
                                            > This just gets worse when I look at the text:
                                            > (�In process of time, alex has become quite an object of luxury, and the
                                            > various kinds that are now made are infinite in number. The same, too, with
                                            > garum, which is now prepared in imitation of the colour of old honied wine,
                                            > and so pleasantly flavoured as to admit of being taken as a drink'
                                            > This is very poor translation i think - Justine jump in when ever you
                                            > want! 'The same too' does not sound right at all for secuti garum The loeb
                                            > has 'for instance' implying a single example ' garum for instance ...
                                            > rather than suggesting that garum had multiple varieties as well.
                                            >
                                            > y vey. My first instinct is indeed "for instance," but yeah, given that
                                            > ts most basic meaning is "just as," I can see how "the same, too" is a
                                            > ossibility. But as is so often the case with Pliny it's not so much a
                                            > uestion of what the word could or could not mean, the real problem is
                                            > rying to follow his stream of thought. For starters:
                                            > *Vitium huius est allex atque inperfecta nec colata faex. coepit tamen et
                                            > rivatim ex inutili pisciculo minimoque confici. *
                                            > ts blemish and unfinished, unstrained dregs is *allex*. But it was
                                            >
                                            > riginally made specifically from useless, tiny finish.
                                            > What was originally made this way? On first reading it sounds like he means
                                            > allex*. But I'm pretty sure the topic of this entire paragraph is fish
                                            > auce in general (the *huius* of the first sentence), not the *vitium
                                            > *thereof.
                                            > n other words, the "it" in the second sentence refers back not to *allex*
                                            > but
                                            >
                                            > ather the "Its" of the first sentence! I mean, why would he be talking
                                            > bout what kind of fish they use to make lees with in *Forum Iulii*, right?
                                            > ou don't set out to make *faex*, *faex* is a byproduct of something else.
                                            > If you still think those sentences are only about *allex*, then yeah, he
                                            > ust be saying something like "[*allex*] became a luxury, and its varieties
                                            > rew to be innumerable, *just as* [happened with] *garum*, which
                                            > as [nowadays] been diluted to the color of old *mulsum*, and such
                                            >
                                            > weetness that you could drink it."
                                            > But if you accept that he's talking about fish sauce in general, he seems
                                            > o be saying "[fish sauce] became a luxury, and its varieties grew to be
                                            > nnumerable, *for instance* [the variety of] *garum* which is diluted to
                                            > he color of old *mulsum*, and such sweetness that you could drink it."
                                            >
                                            > It seems to me pretty clear that the latter translation is preferable, and
                                            > his jibes well with my point that the rest of the paragraph makes better
                                            > ense if we assume the sentence about *allex* was essentially a
                                            >
                                            > arenthetical gloss.
                                            > I tell you, every time I read Pliny the Elder something like this happens:
                                            > very sentence in the paragraph could be interpreted in multiple ways, and
                                            > he key is finding the thread so that it all makes sense.
                                            > As I said, I'm very distracted right now, so please forgive any sloppiness,
                                            > r inattention to what has already been said.
                                            > Valete
                                            > On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 12:06 PM, <sallygrain@...> wrote:
                                            > > **
                                            >


                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • Justin Mansfield
                                            Iustinus Demetriae salutem plurimam dicit, Wow, thank you! I see that Pliny mentions atriplex a few times, and apparently it shows up in Hippocrates as well.
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Jul 21, 2012
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                                              Iustinus Demetriae salutem plurimam dicit,

                                              Wow, thank you! I see that Pliny mentions atriplex a few times, and
                                              apparently it shows up in Hippocrates as well. Pliny doesn't say what to do
                                              with it so far as I can see, and having lost the university proxy I cannot
                                              easily look up what Hippocrates says. Do you have some sort of recipe
                                              yourself?

                                              Thanks,
                                              JDM

                                              On Sat, Jul 21, 2012 at 1:54 PM, Phoenix <hail_isis@...> wrote:

                                              > **
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Salve Iustino,
                                              >
                                              > I have a nice small crop of white goosefoot (lambs' quarters) in my
                                              > garden.
                                              > You are welcome to it if it can help you with a second preparation for
                                              > the C.L.L.
                                              >
                                              > It is very nice raw or cooked.
                                              >
                                              > Good luck with your purslane pickles.
                                              >
                                              > Vale,
                                              > Demetria
                                              >
                                              > --- In Apicius@yahoogroups.com, Justin Mansfield <iustinus@...> wrote:
                                              > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Justine jump in when ever you want!
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > I have been summoned. I just hope you're pronouncing "Justine" as
                                              > three
                                              > > syllables! ;)
                                              > >
                                              > > Sorry, I haven't had time to follow this debate in any detail: I'm
                                              > rushing
                                              > > around in my final days before the Conventiculum Latinum
                                              > Lexintoniense,
                                              > > which is of course when I have my annual Cena Romana (Incidentally I
                                              > tried
                                              > > making Columella's recipe for pickled purslane... but I suspect I did
                                              > it
                                              > > wrong. We'll see how it tastes when I open the jar) Not much focus to
                                              > spare
                                              > > on so detailed an argument.
                                              > >
                                              > > This just gets worse when I look at the text:
                                              > >
                                              > > (���In process of time, alex has become quite an object of luxury,
                                              > and the
                                              > > > various kinds that are now made are infinite in number. The same,
                                              > too, with
                                              > > > garum, which is now prepared in imitation of the colour of old
                                              > honied wine,
                                              > > > and so pleasantly flavoured as to admit of being taken as a drink'
                                              > > > This is very poor translation i think - Justine jump in when ever
                                              > you
                                              > > > want! 'The same too' does not sound right at all for secuti garum
                                              > The loeb
                                              > > > has 'for instance' implying a single example ' garum for instance
                                              > ...
                                              > > > rather than suggesting that garum had multiple varieties as well.
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > Oy vey. My first instinct is indeed "for instance," but yeah, given
                                              > that
                                              > > its most basic meaning is "just as," I can see how "the same, too" is
                                              > a
                                              > > possibility. But as is so often the case with Pliny it's not so much
                                              > a
                                              > > question of what the word could or could not mean, the real problem is
                                              > > trying to follow his stream of thought. For starters:
                                              > >
                                              > > *Vitium huius est allex atque inperfecta nec colata faex. coepit tamen
                                              > et
                                              > > privatim ex inutili pisciculo minimoque confici. *
                                              > > Its blemish and unfinished, unstrained dregs is *allex*. But it was
                                              > > originally made specifically from useless, tiny finish.
                                              > >
                                              > > What was originally made this way? On first reading it sounds like he
                                              > means
                                              > > *allex*. But I'm pretty sure the topic of this entire paragraph is
                                              > fish
                                              > > sauce in general (the *huius* of the first sentence), not the *vitium
                                              > *thereof.
                                              > > In other words, the "it" in the second sentence refers back not to
                                              > *allex* but
                                              > > rather the "Its" of the first sentence! I mean, why would he be
                                              > talking
                                              > > about what kind of fish they use to make lees with in *Forum Iulii*,
                                              > right?
                                              > > You don't set out to make *faex*, *faex* is a byproduct of something
                                              > else.
                                              > >
                                              > > If you still think those sentences are only about *allex*, then yeah,
                                              > he
                                              > > must be saying something like "[*allex*] became a luxury, and its
                                              > varieties
                                              > > grew to be innumerable, *just as* [happened with] *garum*, which
                                              > > has [nowadays] been diluted to the color of old *mulsum*, and such
                                              > > sweetness that you could drink it."
                                              > >
                                              > > But if you accept that he's talking about fish sauce in general, he
                                              > seems
                                              > > to be saying "[fish sauce] became a luxury, and its varieties grew to
                                              > be
                                              > > innumerable, *for instance* [the variety of] *garum* which is diluted
                                              > to
                                              > > the color of old *mulsum*, and such sweetness that you could drink
                                              > it."
                                              > >
                                              > > It seems to me pretty clear that the latter translation is preferable,
                                              > and
                                              > > this jibes well with my point that the rest of the paragraph makes
                                              > better
                                              > > sense if we assume the sentence about *allex* was essentially a
                                              > > parenthetical gloss.
                                              > >
                                              > > I tell you, every time I read Pliny the Elder something like this
                                              > happens:
                                              > > every sentence in the paragraph could be interpreted in multiple ways,
                                              > and
                                              > > the key is finding the thread so that it all makes sense.
                                              > >
                                              > > As I said, I'm very distracted right now, so please forgive any
                                              > sloppiness,
                                              > > or inattention to what has already been said.
                                              > >
                                              > > Valete
                                              > >
                                              > > On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 12:06 PM, sallygrain@... wrote:
                                              > >
                                              > > > **
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Hi
                                              > > >
                                              > > > 'So why shouldn���t Pliny be right? I am sure that there were not
                                              > only the
                                              > > > two forms of ���garum��� that you mentioned but a lot of other
                                              > varieties'
                                              > > >
                                              > > > The varieties are determined by the species of fish, their quality
                                              > and
                                              > > > origin. The fish bone evidence from ship wrecks which I have studies
                                              > > > extensively reveal tiny anchovy or sardine or a mixed variety of
                                              > small
                                              > > > clupiedae and sparidae and they would make one kind - the most basic
                                              > i
                                              > > > think - of fish sauce, while mackerel is common in fish sauce
                                              > amphorae and
                                              > > > the tituli picti make it clear this was the best. Apicius - the
                                              > gourmet
                                              > > > rather than the recipe text - suggest mullet or nd we can assume any
                                              > other
                                              > > > specified and selected fish would make a superior kind. The
                                              > subsequent
                                              > > > sauce would not be named by its fish type but by the process it
                                              > underwent.
                                              > > > To liquefy i.e. liquamen or the juice from them i.e. the blood and
                                              > viscera
                                              > > > sauce.
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > > You still havnt explained to me how the manufacturer, merchant
                                              > trader and
                                              > > > cook was able to distinguish between the blood and viscera sauce and
                                              > the
                                              > > > whole fish variety. You cannot deny the existance of a blood viscera
                                              > sauce
                                              > > > - its in the Geoponica as a distinctly separate entity and it is
                                              > also
                                              > > > defined as 'luxury' Martial 'made from the blood of a still
                                              > breathing
                                              > > > mackerel' afirms its existance. As i said it matters not one jot
                                              > what the
                                              > > > stupid ill informed gourmet thinks he is eating - the manufacturer
                                              > needs to
                                              > > > be able to distinguish between them. You note that liquamen is rare
                                              > and
                                              > > > late but it is also only found in didactic texts written by the
                                              > > > practitioner and producer - slave cook, vet, writers of agricultural
                                              > > > material. The same kind of people as the manufacturer and merchant
                                              > who need
                                              > > > specific and precise terminology to identify their products. The
                                              > absence of
                                              > > > liquamen in elite literature as I have already said is due to the
                                              > obvious
                                              > > > fact that poets such as Martial etc consume garum at table and do
                                              > not cook
                                              > > > so they dont recognise the existence of a separate cooking sauce
                                              > which is
                                              > > > weaker.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > (���In process of time, alex has become quite an object of
                                              > luxury, and the
                                              > > > various kinds that are now made are infinite in number. The same,
                                              > too, with
                                              > > > garum, which is now prepared in imitation of the colour of old
                                              > honied wine,
                                              > > > and so pleasantly flavoured as to admit of being taken as a drink'
                                              > > >
                                              > > > This is very poor translation i think - Justine jump in when ever
                                              > you
                                              > > > want! 'The same too' does not sound right at all for secuti garum
                                              > The loeb
                                              > > > has 'for instance' implying a single example ' garum for instance
                                              > ...
                                              > > > rather than suggesting that garum had multiple varieties as well.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > 'this implies that there were other, less praised types of garum
                                              > ��� and
                                              > > > that intestina and other parts of the fish were used'
                                              > > >
                                              > > > You cannot separate the blood and viscera here and suggest that
                                              > blood is
                                              > > > valuable and viscera not - thats utterly confused. The
                                              > > > most prized type of garum was made from mackerel viscera and blood
                                              > with
                                              > > > salt and nothing else.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > 'but the normal Latin word at the time of Ausonius was
                                              > ���liquamen��� (which
                                              > > > wasn���t an old Latin word and Ausonius obviously didn���t
                                              > like it'
                                              > > > You simply cannot say this, Its the worst kind of special pleading
                                              > when
                                              > > > your argument fails you. Ausonius didnt use the term liquamen
                                              > because he
                                              > > > didn't receive liquamen, he received garum He calls it liquor iste
                                              > > > sociorum. 'that liquor of our allies' which directly links in with
                                              > > > Martials' 'made from the blood of a still breathing mackerel' which
                                              > he also
                                              > > > calls garum sociorum, the most expensive kind of garum according to
                                              > Pliny
                                              > > > too, when garum is a blood/viscera sauce. Garum can also be cheap
                                              > and
                                              > > > cheerful and made from any old bit of fish blood and viscera.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > The crucial thing about the epigraphic evidence which you have
                                              > failed to
                                              > > > recognise is that in Pompeii there are amphorae with garum and there
                                              > are
                                              > > > amphorae with liquamen labels in the same context. This is
                                              > indisputable
                                              > > > evidence, that makes it absolutely clear, without a doubt, that for
                                              > the
                                              > > > people who made and bought fish sauce in Pompeii in 69 AD garum and
                                              > > > liquamen represented different products. By the 4th century as i
                                              > have
                                              > > > already said the blood viscera sauce was insufficiently popular to
                                              > warrant
                                              > > > attention - in Apicius or the price edict and as a result the
                                              > differences
                                              > > > had ceased to mean anything which is why they appear to be the same
                                              > in the
                                              > > > late Empire
                                              > > >
                                              > > > all the best sally
                                              > > >
                                              > > > -----Original Message-----
                                              > > > From: RM apicius@...
                                              > > > To: Apicius Apicius@yahoogroups.com
                                              > > > Sent: Thu, 19 Jul 2012 0:18
                                              > > > Subject: Re: [Apicius] Garum and Liquamen (again)
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Sorry for the late answer. I wasn���t at home yesterday and
                                              > therefore not
                                              > > > able to sit down and reply immediately.
                                              > > > Meanwhile I had a look at some editions of the Naturalis Historia
                                              > ��� one by
                                              > > > Roderich K���nig with German translation, the other the one by
                                              > John Bostock
                                              > > > et al. included in Perseus (
                                              > > >
                                              > http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.01\
                                              > 37%3Abook%3D31%3Achapter%3D44<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0137%3Abook%3D31%3Achapter%3D44>
                                              > ).
                                              > > > Essentially those two interpreted the passage as to be referred not
                                              > only to
                                              > > > allex but also to garum (���In process of time, alex has become
                                              > quite an
                                              > > > object of luxury, and the various kinds that are now made are
                                              > infinite in
                                              > > > number. The same, too, with garum, which is now prepared in
                                              > imitation of
                                              > > > the colour of old honied wine, and so pleasantly flavoured as to
                                              > admit of
                                              > > > being taken as a drink.��� from: The Natural History. Pliny the
                                              > Elder. John
                                              > > > Bostock, M.D., F.R.S. H.T. Riley, Esq., B.A. London. Taylor and
                                              > Francis,
                                              > > > Red Lion Court, Fleet Street. 1855.). So, at least, I am not
                                              > hopelessly
                                              > > > alone with my interpretation.
                                              > > > Certainly there were a lot of different types of garum during and
                                              > before
                                              > > > the 1st century and even after. Martial cites the garum made from
                                              > the blood
                                              > > > of scomber, Plinius said that the most praised garum was indeed made
                                              > from
                                              > > > scomber ��� this implies that there were other, less praised
                                              > types of garum ���
                                              > > > and that intestina and other parts of the fish were used. The
                                              > fishermen of
                                              > > > Manilius seem to use tunny. Horace mentioned garum ���de sucis
                                              > piscis��� (Hor.
                                              > > > Serm. 2, 8, 46). But those citations are all about garum, not about
                                              > > > liquamen because the word ���liquamen��� was a very new
                                              > creation in the 1st
                                              > > > century that hadn���t made yet its way into the language of
                                              > Pliny, Horace,
                                              > > > Seneca and Martial. Ausonius said that he wasn���t used to and
                                              > couldn���t say
                                              > > > the Latin word (���nec solere nec posse dicere���) for
                                              > ���garum��� and that those
                                              > > > who knew well old Latin and were disgusted with Greek vocabulary
                                              > > > (���scientissimi veterum et Graeca vocabula fastidientes���)
                                              > hadn���t a Latin
                                              > > > word for it. So he called it ���liquor iste sociorum���
                                              > instead ��� but the
                                              > > > normal Latin word at the time of Ausonius was ���liquamen���
                                              > (which wasn���t an
                                              > > > old Latin word and Ausonius obviously didn���t like it;
                                              > ���muria��� has been
                                              > > > mentioned in a similar context by Plinius in 31, 94 ��� probabely
                                              > this muria
                                              > > > wasn���t just salty water). And this is what we can deduce also
                                              > from the
                                              > > > Price Edict: ���garum��� is doubtlessly a Greek word, equal to
                                              > ���garon���, and the
                                              > > > correct Latin translation is ���liquamen��� at those times, i.
                                              > e. at the
                                              > > > beginning of the 4th century. As it is a legal text, what we find in
                                              > the
                                              > > > Price Edict is certainly not an arbitrary appellation. So if therein
                                              > > > ���liquamen��� is the translation of ���garon��� (which
                                              > is identical to the Latin
                                              > > > ���garum��� which, according to Ausonius, is still a Greek
                                              > word) why should we
                                              > > > believe that there was a fundamental difference between those two?
                                              > There
                                              > > > were certainly varieties that may have had different trade names
                                              > sometimes
                                              > > > but the Geoponika show us that in late antiquity the word
                                              > ���likouamen��� could
                                              > > > substitute the original ���garon��� even in Greek. The same,
                                              > of course in Apic.
                                              > > > 7, 13, 1: ���ita ut piper cum liquamine teres��� is an
                                              > specification for ���in
                                              > > > garo piper<ato>��� (I prefer this version because the other one
                                              > is
                                              > > > grammatically disputable and we have Petronius using a ���garum
                                              > piperatum��� in
                                              > > > Sat. 36, 3). Probabely this is an old recipe of the 1st century
                                              > where
                                              > > > someone added the explanation because he was in doubt if the people
                                              > could
                                              > > > understand what ���garum piperatum��� meant.
                                              > > > From the references we have we can derive that the word
                                              > ���liquamen��� has
                                              > > > been created in the 1st century and was used more and more ���
                                              > perhaps driven
                                              > > > by culinary experts like Apicius ��� until being an equivalent of
                                              > the word
                                              > > > ���garum��� at the beginning of the 4th century even in legal
                                              > texts like the
                                              > > > Price Edict. It has also been accepted as a synonym of
                                              > ���garon��� in Greek as
                                              > > > we see from the Geoponika. There are some detailled descriptions of
                                              > the
                                              > > > production of ���garum��� but only in the Geoponika we find
                                              > the same for
                                              > > > ���likouamen��� which in that context is to be considered a
                                              > synonym of ���garon���.
                                              > > > The word ���liquamen��� is used in a similar way ��� i.e.
                                              > as a translation of
                                              > > > ���garum��� or ���garon��� ��� in the Price Edict and
                                              > in Apic. 7.13.1. Well, we may
                                              > > > get much more examplesfor ���liquamen��� and ���garum���
                                              > out of the epigraphic data
                                              > > > base (http://oracle-vm.ku-eichstaett.de:8888/epigr/epigraphik_de)
                                              > but we
                                              > > > wouldn���t find many differences between ���liquamen��� and
                                              > ���garum��� there. We
                                              > > > have ���liquamen optimum scombri��� and ���garum flos
                                              > scombri��� and so on. From my
                                              > > > point of view it is not possible to clearly distinguish the both,
                                              > ���garum���
                                              > > > and ���liquamen���, as both appear to be exchangeable in
                                              > various contexts. They
                                              > > > vary in frequency of occurrence: ���Garum��� was used more
                                              > frequently before
                                              > > > the 2nd century, ���liquamen��� was used more frequently from
                                              > the end of the
                                              > > > 1st century.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Best wishes,
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Robert
                                              > > >
                                              > > > From: sallygrain@...
                                              > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 2:11 PM
                                              > > > To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
                                              > > > Subject: Re: [Apicius] Garum and Liquamen (again)
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Your ref to Pliny is as follows in English for the rest ' then allec
                                              > > > became a luxury and its various kinds have come to be inumerable'
                                              > These
                                              > > > refer to enumerable kinds of allec or fish paste made from sea food
                                              > and not
                                              > > > neccesarily the liquid fish sauce derived from one kind of allec.
                                              > The
                                              > > > liquid fish sauce was not enumerable in kind but basically 2 types
                                              > or 3 if
                                              > > > you include muria 1, liquefied whole fish sauce. 2 fish blood and
                                              > viscera
                                              > > > 3. brine from salted fish which corresponds to coluratura die alici
                                              > from
                                              > > > the Naples area as this is made with eviscerated salted anchovy.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Ultimately then, you are basing your argument that liquamen is not a
                                              > > > synonym for garum but is for garon on Apicius 7.13.1 which is one
                                              > recipes
                                              > > > out of 450+ That garum and liquamen appear in this recipes and only
                                              > this
                                              > > > one suggest to me that the pepper is ground with liquamen and them
                                              > served
                                              > > > with garum at table. Otherwise it makes no sence to use both terms.
                                              > If they
                                              > > > are there because whome ever wanted to translate the one with the
                                              > other we
                                              > > > would at least find this construction - using both terms more often
                                              > in the
                                              > > > rest of the text. The use of garum in the compound terms oenogarum,
                                              > > > hydrogarum etc is not relavant as they are transliterated Greek.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > You almost get it - The generic term only exists in Greek In latin
                                              > > > technically there is no generic term but as they are so similar many
                                              > > > ancient as well as modern scholars assume that the generic function
                                              > was
                                              > > > transferred to the Latin when it was translated. I will even allow
                                              > that
                                              > > > some ancients used garum when they actually meant liquamen but the
                                              > > > manufacturer, trader, merchant and cook never would have got them
                                              > mixed up
                                              > > > - one was black and bloody, dark and strong used in drops while the
                                              > other
                                              > > > was pale brown and used in quantity. There simply had to be a way to
                                              > > > distinguish them in trade. The acetabulum little vinegar cup in some
                                              > > > recipes (p 83 ff our edition) hold 60ml and was blended with a
                                              > similar
                                              > > > amount of wine and fish sauce. The resulting oenogarum was delicious
                                              > as i
                                              > > > am sure you know. I have made blood garum and it is disgusting in
                                              > those
                                              > > > quantities. Check out http://www.ishiri.jp/en/ for the Japanese
                                              > squid
                                              > > > blood and viscera fish sauce which is pitch black and smells
                                              > distinctly of
                                              > > > blood - iron in fact, a frind who was a nurse told me it smells of
                                              > digested
                                              > > > blood after smelling the human gut in surgery.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > You do know Ausonius' letter I am sure. He specifically says there
                                              > is no
                                              > > > latin word that he can use instead of garum which he rejects as its
                                              > Greek
                                              > > > in origin and he rejects Greek words. If liquamen was the equivelent
                                              > of
                                              > > > garum in Latin he would have no problem. Instead of cause he fuels
                                              > our
                                              > > > confussion with the use of muria which we cannot get tied up in now.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > sally
                                              > > >
                                              > > > -----Original Message-----
                                              > > > From: RM <mailto:apicius%40maierphil.de>;
                                              > > > To: Apicius <mailto:Apicius%40yahoogroups.com>;
                                              > > > Sent: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 0:15
                                              > > > Subject: Re: [Apicius] Garum and Liquamen (again)
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Hi Sally,
                                              > > >
                                              > > > the fact that a lot of differt types of ���garum��� existed is
                                              > obviously true
                                              > > > but it is not my idea. This has already been reported by Pliny in
                                              > the half
                                              > > > sentence I cited before: ���... , creveruntque genera ad
                                              > infinitum, ...���
                                              > > > (Plin. NH 31, 95). So why shouldn���t Pliny be right? I am sure
                                              > that there
                                              > > > were not only the two forms of ���garum��� that you mentioned
                                              > but a lot of
                                              > > > other varieties, too. So why shouldn���t they have been sold
                                              > eventually under
                                              > > > the same name ���garum���? In the Price Edict and even in the
                                              > Geoponika
                                              > > > ���liquamen��� (or in Greek letters ���likouamen���) is
                                              > clearly a synonym /
                                              > > > translation of the Greek word garon. The Price Edict has a first and
                                              > a
                                              > > > second quality of garon / liquamen. The name of both qualities was
                                              > the same
                                              > > > but to produce different qualities probabely the ingredients were
                                              > somewhat
                                              > > > different. And then there is also the Apicius recipe 7, 13, 1 garum
                                              > and
                                              > > > liquamen do mean exactly the same: ���fungi farnei: elixi,
                                              > calidi, exsiccati
                                              > > > in garo piper<ato> accipiuntur, ita ut piper cum liquamine
                                              > teres.��� ��� I
                                              > > > cited this from my own Apicius edition where it is numbered 7, 15, 1
                                              > (ed.
                                              > > > Robert Maier, Reclam, Stuttgart 1991), the text of your edition has
                                              > ���piper���
                                              > > > instead of ���piper<ato>���. Unfortunately Manilius
                                              > doesn���t tell us the names
                                              > > > of what his fishermen were creating in the Astronomica 5, 667 sqq.
                                              > > > To conclude: I think it���s an alluring hypothesis to believe in
                                              > a real
                                              > > > difference between ���garum��� and ���liquamen��� but
                                              > it���s a hypothesis that lacks
                                              > > > evidence. As we can deduce from the Price Edict and the Geoponika
                                              > > > ���liquamen��� was a synonym at least of the Greek
                                              > ���garon��� and probabely also
                                              > > > of the Roman ���garum���, as we see in Apic. 7, 13, 1. What we
                                              > eventually could
                                              > > > assume is that ���liquamen��� in some contexts might have been
                                              > understood as a
                                              > > > specific quality of ���garum��� (some filtered high quality
                                              > ���garum���) but there
                                              > > > is certainly no general distinction. On the amphorae one should
                                              > expect some
                                              > > > trade names, as we use today the word ���balsamico��� for a
                                              > specific type of
                                              > > > vinegar, while the product class remains ���vinegar���. So in
                                              > our case the
                                              > > > product class would be ���garum��� including more specific
                                              > appellations like
                                              > > > ���garum sociorum���, ���garum scombri���,
                                              > ���liquamen��� etc. At the end ���liquamen���
                                              > > > was used as a general term (because everyone tends to use only the
                                              > very
                                              > > > best quality), just as it happened in the case of ���iecur���
                                              > which, at the
                                              > > > end, was called always ���ficatum��� and became
                                              > ���fegato���, ���foie��� etc. in the
                                              > > > different modern languages.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Best wishes,
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Robert
                                              > > >
                                              > > > From: mailto:sallygrain%40aol.com
                                              > > > Sent: Monday, July 16, 2012 7:57 PM
                                              > > > To: mailto:Apicius%40yahoogroups.com
                                              > > > Subject: Re: [Apicius] Garum and Liquamen (again)
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Hi
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Your approach to fish sauce is too simplistic I am afraid. Do you
                                              > not even
                                              > > > recognise the fact of a separate blood and viscera sauce different
                                              > from the
                                              > > > whole-fish sauce. They cannot both be garum!, the former black and
                                              > bloody,
                                              > > > the latter pale golden according to Pliny. They have different uses,
                                              > the
                                              > > > garon melan was used at table and so became a fashionable ingredient
                                              > to
                                              > > > discuss in satire, the cooking liquamen was only used in the kitchen
                                              > by
                                              > > > slaves and therefore was not recognised as a separate sauce by the
                                              > elite.
                                              > > > The tituli picti associated with amphorae from Pompeii and Rome
                                              > reflect the
                                              > > > frequent usage of liquamen in the 1st century along side garum. We
                                              > find
                                              > > > garum scombri flos and liquamen flos in contempory sites: they have
                                              > to mean
                                              > > > two separate sauces, there is no way out of that one!
                                              > > >
                                              > > > sally
                                              > > >
                                              > > > -----Original Message-----
                                              > > > From: RM <mailto:apicius%40maierphil.de>;;
                                              > > > To: Apicius <mailto:Apicius%40yahoogroups.com>;;
                                              > > > Sent: Sun, 15 Jul 2012 22:24
                                              > > > Subject: Re: [Apicius] Garum and Liquamen (again)
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Just a little correction and an addition: The Geoponika have been
                                              > written
                                              > > > down about 600 years after the Price Edict (not 800!). The word
                                              > ���garum��� is
                                              > > > found twice within the Apicius recipes, in 7, 13, 1 (with
                                              > ���liquamen��� in the
                                              > > > same recipe!) and Exc. 29 (according to Vollmer & Milham).
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Best regards
                                              > > >
                                              > > > RM
                                              > > >
                                              > > > From: RM
                                              > > > Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 8:36 PM
                                              > > > To: mailto:Apicius%40yahoogroups.com
                                              > > > Subject: Re: [Apicius] Garum and Liquamen (again)
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Well, we don���t know exactly when the Apicius collection has
                                              > been compiled
                                              > > > but it is quite sure that has been compiled from a base of earlier
                                              > recipes
                                              > > > from which about a third is to be considered to be from an original
                                              > > > cookbook probabely written by the same Apicius who has been
                                              > mentioned in
                                              > > > Plinius��� Naturalis Historia (see Brandt: ���Untersuchungen
                                              > zum r���mischen
                                              > > > Kochbuch��� in Philologus Suppl. XIX, 3). From the Historia
                                              > Augusta we learn
                                              > > > that Aelius Verus who died in 138 took three books into his bed:
                                              > Amores by
                                              > > > Ovid, Apicius and Martial. We may believe this or not. If we believe
                                              > it
                                              > > > there should have been an edition of Apicius at those times. I
                                              > didn���t say
                                              > > > that Apicius was the only one who ever mentioned
                                              > ���liquamen��� ��� I said he was
                                              > > > the only one who used it in this sense in antiquity, Vegetius and
                                              > > > Pelagonius lived in very late antiquity, but you wouldn���t find
                                              > the term
                                              > > > before Columella where it signified just a liquid. The question is
                                              > > > therefore if your ���liquamen���, that may differ from
                                              > ���garum���, was invented
                                              > > > after the 1st or 2nd century. There is no doubt that there were many
                                              > > > different types and qualities of garum (���... , creveruntque
                                              > genera ad
                                              > > > infinitum, ...��� Plin. NH 31, 95). Plinius tells us that Apicius
                                              > used the so
                                              > > > called ���garum sociorum��� which is just a type of garum. In
                                              > his Naturalis
                                              > > > Historia Plinius mentioned ���garum��� sometimes ���
                                              > liquamen never. I personally
                                              > > > believe that Plinius did know very well what he was writing about in
                                              > book
                                              > > > 31 where he describes the production of ���garum��� ���
                                              > there he calls it a
                                              > > > ���liquor��� (not ���liquamen��� of course). What you
                                              > can find in the Diocletian���s
                                              > > > Price Edict are two terms (3.6): ���garou ge���matos
                                              > prwte���ou��� in Greek,
                                              > > > ���liquaminis primi��� in Latin ��� there the word
                                              > ���liquamen��� appears as a simple
                                              > > > translation of ���garon��� (why do you think it should be
                                              > ���garos���?). The
                                              > > > Geoponika, of course, has been compiled 800 years later, using
                                              > authors of
                                              > > > the late antiquity but it is very interesting that in the Geoponika
                                              > the
                                              > > > Latin word ���liquamen��� appears twice as ���t���
                                              > kalo���menon likouamen��� (=���the so
                                              > > > called liquamen���) in the chapter "Garwn piohsis" (20, 46, 1+2).
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Well, I better stop here because it would end up with some kind of
                                              > endless
                                              > > > discussion. There is ��� in my opinion ��� no real evidence
                                              > for any difference
                                              > > > of liquamen and garum, especially if we consider the Price Edict and
                                              > the
                                              > > > Geoponika. I think ���liquamen��� is just a word that may have
                                              > been introduced
                                              > > > by people like Apicius as a terminus technicus to substitute
                                              > ���garum��� in
                                              > > > technical language and then spread more and more until Anthimus did
                                              > only
                                              > > > use the term ���liquamen��� ("Nam liquamen ex omni parte
                                              > prohibimus."). Even
                                              > > > the ���so called liquamen��� in the Geoponika leads to this
                                              > direction.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Best regards
                                              > > >
                                              > > > RM
                                              > > > From: mailto:sallygrain%40aol.com
                                              > > > Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 5:06 PM
                                              > > > To: mailto:Apicius%40yahoogroups.com
                                              > > > Subject: Re: [Apicius] Garum and Liquamen (again)
                                              > > >
                                              > > > OK
                                              > > >
                                              > > > garum liquamen and the differences: i recently presented a paper at
                                              > the
                                              > > > British School at Rome to archaeologist of the fish trade in the
                                              > Med. and
                                              > > > therefore what follows is a pressi of what i said to them
                                              > > >
                                              > > > To start with you talk about Apicius as if he was the sole author
                                              > and
                                              > > > originator of the text when it is clear from our textual analysis
                                              > that the
                                              > > > recipe collection has multiple authors and they are slave cooks
                                              > rather than
                                              > > > a single gourmet. In terms of food at this level there were
                                              > consumers and
                                              > > > producers and it is the producers - the cooks - who we must trust to
                                              > use
                                              > > > the terminology correctly. You cannot argue that Apicius wrote this
                                              > or that
                                              > > > way, logically all the slave cooks wrote liquamen rather than garum
                                              > for a
                                              > > > reason. Equally you cannot place Apicius as a text in the late
                                              > Empire
                                              > > > reflecting a late usage for fish sauce. The terms used in it must
                                              > reflect
                                              > > > the way in which cooks expressed themselves throughout the classical
                                              > > > period. The whole argument and justification for Vulgar Latin/Late
                                              > Latin is
                                              > > > based on elite usage. You say garum was the more commonplace term
                                              > but in
                                              > > > fact it is the other way round: Caelius Aurelianus says that the
                                              > vulgar
                                              > > > latin term in every day usage is liquamen. You also state that
                                              > liquamen
                                              > > > only occurs in Apicius but this is not the case. It is found in the
                                              > Greek
                                              > > > agricultural manual The Geoponica - you do all know that Andrew
                                              > Dalby has
                                              > > > recently published a new translation of this dont you ? - where it
                                              > is a
                                              > > > direct translation of the Greek garon but wait ...garon does not
                                              > > > necessarily mean garum. It is also found frequently along with garum
                                              > in the
                                              > > > same veterinary recipe collections, particularly Vegetius and
                                              > Pelagonius.
                                              > > > (Pelagonius: liquamen: 9; 11.2; 13;98; 455; 457, garum: 428;13.
                                              > Vegetius
                                              > > > liquamen: 1.10.1; 1.17.10, 16; 2.91.2; 2.108.2; 2.132.4; 4.6.1,
                                              > garum:
                                              > > > 2.28.8; 3.28.10). In Galen it is also clear that two sauces were
                                              > used: he
                                              > > > refers simply to garon many times but only once or twice to garon
                                              > melan. We
                                              > > > have two names and two sauces so there shouldn't have been a
                                              > problem!
                                              > > >
                                              > > > (Pelagonius: liquamen: 9; 11.2; 13;98; 455; 457, garum: 428;13.
                                              > Vegetius
                                              > > > liquamen: 1.10.1; 1.17.10, 16; 2.91.2; 2.108.2; 2.132.4; 4.6.1,
                                              > garum:
                                              > > > 2.28.8; 3.28.10). In Galen it is also clear that two sauces were
                                              > used: he
                                              > > > refers simply to garon many times but only once or twice to garon
                                              > melan. We
                                              > > > have two names and two sauces so there shouldn't have been a
                                              > problem!
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Apicius - this is the title not the author - is an organic
                                              > collection of
                                              > > > recipes originally compiled, in it's earliest form, in Greek and we
                                              > > > consider this to be in the late 1st century AD and possibly even
                                              > earlier.
                                              > > > We see no evidence of a formal publication date, only a finish date
                                              > which
                                              > > > is clearly 5/6th century. The chapter heading are in Greek and there
                                              > are
                                              > > > numerous terms that are not translated but transliterated i.e the
                                              > Greek
                                              > > > endings are converted into Latin endings so oenogaron: the Greek
                                              > sauce made
                                              > > > from the original Greek fish sauce and wine becomes oenogarum. Bare
                                              > in mind
                                              > > > the whole idea of fish sauce was originally Greek
                                              > > >
                                              > > > So if the cooks dont use garum qua garum one has to ask why? At this
                                              > point
                                              > > > I am pasting from the delivered paper
                                              > > >
                                              > > > What we first must do is acknowledge the presence of a blood and
                                              > viscera
                                              > > > sauce in the Ancient Mediterranean cuisine that we think of as Roman
                                              > food.
                                              > > > This sauce was a strong black and bloody condiment called in Greek
                                              > garon
                                              > > > melan or haimation that I believe was almost certainly handled by
                                              > the
                                              > > > consumer at table. This sauce was completely separate to the primary
                                              > > > product in terms of archaeology (the amphora and fish bones) which
                                              > was a
                                              > > > cooking sauce made from whole-fish with extra viscera which provided
                                              > > > enzymes which aided the liquefaction of the muscle tissue.
                                              > > > The development and use of the primary product: a fish sauce made
                                              > with
                                              > > > whole fish, initially began in Greece and was a simple sauce made of
                                              > very
                                              > > > small fish (otherwise of no value) and salt used in everyday
                                              > cooking. It is
                                              > > > clear from references in 3rd century new comedy in Athens that this
                                              > sauce
                                              > > > was used with oil and vinegar or wine as a dressing for vegetables
                                              > and
                                              > > > pulses and was not considered particularly elite. My colleague
                                              > Andrew Dalby
                                              > > > has stated it to be a commonplace ingredient and it is noteworthy
                                              > that
                                              > > > Archestratus, the 2nd century Greek gourmet poet writing from Sicily
                                              > about
                                              > > > the best fish does not mention fish sauce at all. Later Galen in the
                                              > 2nd
                                              > > > Century AD is also suggesting the use of garos in dressing of oil
                                              > and
                                              > > > vinegar to accompany simple vegetables. The Apicius recipes
                                              > collection
                                              > > > includes a whole section on vegetables which are also largely
                                              > accompanied
                                              > > > by oil, wine and fish sauce. These simple blended sauces are
                                              > basically like
                                              > > > vinaigrette and are throughout the Apicius recipe text in various
                                              > forms.
                                              > > > The most common was an oenogarum a transliterated term from the
                                              > Greek. In
                                              > > > fact when oenogarum is translated into Latin - it is found in Ps.
                                              > Gargilius
                                              > > > Martialis recipe - it appears as Confectio liquaminis. So there
                                              > rearly is
                                              > > > no garum in Apicius. This means of cause that there is no blood and
                                              > viscera
                                              > > > garum, because as a table sauce it was used on food rather than in
                                              > the
                                              > > > cooking and was also used to make elite oenogarum that may have been
                                              > > > blended at table by the gourmet or slaves attendants.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > This simple Greek whole fish sauce almost certainly came to Rome as
                                              > garon
                                              > > > transliterated into garum but was still this simple liquefied fish
                                              > sauce.
                                              > > > As fish sauce became popular in Rome the elite were concerned with
                                              > > > differentiating their foods from everybody else���s and I believe
                                              > they may
                                              > > > have instigated new developments in fish sauce types, one of which
                                              > was the
                                              > > > blood and viscera sauce and one was the use of much larger fish that
                                              > did
                                              > > > have a market value such as mackerel and larger clupeidae and
                                              > sparidae
                                              > > > which could have been used as salted fish.
                                              > > > I believe the confusion over the terminology occurred when the elite
                                              > > > retained the term garum - the transliterated and now fashionable
                                              > Greek term
                                              > > > to designate their new table sauce made from blood and viscera and
                                              > the
                                              > > > manufacturer, trader , merchant and cook had to coin a new term in
                                              > Latin to
                                              > > > designate the original and commonplace fish sauce, called garon made
                                              > from
                                              > > > whole fish. This was liquamen, the derivation of which is ���to
                                              > liquefy so it
                                              > > > is aptly titled.
                                              > > > We have mentioned the absence of garum from Apicius but we must also
                                              > > > mention the absence of the separate Latin blood garum from
                                              > Diocletians
                                              > > > price edict in 301 AD . Here liquamen is equivalent to garos not
                                              > garum just
                                              > > > as we find in the Geoponica. These two absences are of cause the
                                              > primary
                                              > > > reason for the 'single sauce hypothesis' advovated by Curtis. If
                                              > however
                                              > > > you see these absences as evidence that the blood garum was no
                                              > longer
                                              > > > sufficiently popular in the early 4th century AD to warrant its own
                                              > price
                                              > > > on the edict or a mention in the recipes, then the later dominance
                                              > of
                                              > > > liquamen is explained. In fact (a guess) I believe the elite blood
                                              > viscera
                                              > > > garum had a relatively small market in comparison to liquamen and
                                              > was made
                                              > > > to appear more important because of the unusually close view we get
                                              > of the
                                              > > > elite at table in the early empire through satire. It was still made
                                              > in the
                                              > > > late empire as we know Ausonius acquired a jar in the mid 4th
                                              > century but
                                              > > > it seems it was a special delivery and therefore probably not
                                              > readily
                                              > > > available in southern France, and he is also very confused as to
                                              > what to
                                              > > > call it!
                                              > > > The original Greek sauce ��� garos equivalent to liquamen -
                                              > remained the
                                              > > > primary product. We can I think come to see how it was that later
                                              > sources
                                              > > > began to say that garum was liquamen. Caelius Aurelianus says that
                                              > the
                                              > > > vulgar latin term in every day usage is liquamen ��� I don���t
                                              > think he means
                                              > > > just the poor here - and the elite prefer garum but in principle
                                              > it���s the
                                              > > > same product. if Pliny can fail to see the two sauces when it was
                                              > popular,
                                              > > > when the blood sauce has become rare it would seem quite logical to
                                              > revert
                                              > > > to the earlier usage and make the assumption that everyone has -
                                              > ancient
                                              > > > and modern - that the Greek and Latin meant the same thing'.
                                              > > > note: I have not pasted the bit from Pliny but he is the cause of
                                              > most of
                                              > > > the confusion as he conflates both sauces into one. His elite
                                              > expensive
                                              > > > garum is made from viscera and most interpretations of his
                                              > definition of
                                              > > > fish sauce presupposed that he also meant to say small fish as he
                                              > goes on
                                              > > > to suggest that allec was the residue of garum but the blood viscera
                                              > sauce
                                              > > > has no bones or fish paste to make an allec. Only the primary fish
                                              > sauce
                                              > > > generates a fish paste.
                                              > > > Hope this helps. It is a theory i will own but a thoroughly rational
                                              > and
                                              > > > logical one according to the archaeologists (and Robert Curtis who
                                              > has been
                                              > > > an adviser), I spoke to and they will be moving forward in analysing
                                              > > > amphorae shapes and fish bone residues with the idea that there were
                                              > two
                                              > > > basic types of sauce in the 1st century AD when all the archaeology
                                              > is most
                                              > > > prolific.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Sally Grainger
                                              > > >
                                              > > > -----Original Message-----
                                              > > > From: RM <mailto:apicius%40maierphil.de>;;;
                                              > > > To: Apicius <mailto:Apicius%40yahoogroups.com>;;;
                                              > > > Sent: Sat, 14 Jul 2012 14:05
                                              > > > Subject: [Apicius] Garum and Liquamen (again)
                                              > > >
                                              > > > I am sorry, but are you really sure that there is any evidence for a
                                              > > > difference between garum and the Apician ���liquamen���?
                                              > ���liquamen��� is a word
                                              > > > used only by Apicius instead of the more common word
                                              > ���garum���. A good
                                              > > > example is the following recipe:
                                              > > > ���Hydrogarata isicia sic facies: teres piper, ligusticum,
                                              > pyrethrum
                                              > > > minimum, suffundes liquamen. temperas aquam cisterninam, dum
                                              > inducet,
                                              > > > exinanies in caccabo, et tum isicia ad vaporem ignis pones, ut
                                              > caleat, et
                                              > > > sic sorbendum inferes.���
                                              > > > This means that to make ���hydrogarum��� Apicius used
                                              > ���liquamen��� et ���aqua
                                              > > > cisternina���. ���liquamen��� for Apicius is just a
                                              > terminus technicus. The word
                                              > > > ���liquamen��� has been used in antiquity just by Columella
                                              > (who used it in a
                                              > > > different context) and once by Flavius Vopiscus Syracusius on
                                              > Aurelius
                                              > > > where it meant ���garum���. The hypothesis of a difference
                                              > between garum and
                                              > > > liquamen sounds interesting but I think Apicius just introduced the
                                              > word
                                              > > > ���liquamen��� as a t.t. in order to substitute the common
                                              > word ���garum���.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Best regards
                                              > > >
                                              > > > RM
                                              > > >
                                              > > > From: mailto:sallygrain%40aol.com
                                              > > > Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2012 1:49 PM
                                              > > > To: mailto:Apicius%40yahoogroups.com
                                              > > > Subject: Re: [Apicius] Recent Cook Out
                                              > > >
                                              > > > good to know the dishes worked
                                              > > > Can i just point out - as i am a bit of a stickler for such things -
                                              > that
                                              > > > the recipes in Apicius use the word liquamen rather than garum
                                              > because they
                                              > > > represent two different sauces - one whole-fish sauce, one a blood
                                              > viscera
                                              > > > fish sauce and I don't want to see an inaccurate ref that puports to
                                              > be
                                              > > > from my book where you have changed liquamen into garum in the
                                              > belief that
                                              > > > they are synonymous - they were not.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > thanks so much
                                              > > > sally
                                              > > >
                                              > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              > > >
                                              > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              > > >
                                              > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              > > >
                                              > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              > > >
                                              > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              > > >
                                              > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              > > >
                                              > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              > > >
                                              > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              > > >
                                              > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >


                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • Mercy Neumark
                                              This is a great discussion which I am enjoying greatly, but can the posts please be clipped? I read via digest, so if you just hit reply and leave all previous
                                              Message 22 of 25 , Jul 22, 2012
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                                                This is a great discussion which I am enjoying greatly, but can the posts please be clipped? I read via digest, so if you just hit reply and leave all previous posts, it gets a little bulky to read thru after a bit.

                                                Thank you so much! Sorry to bother you. :(

                                                --Mercy

                                                Sent from my iPhone
                                                Please excuse any typos or odd autocorrection errors
                                              • Saerlaith
                                                I don t mind so long as everyone starts trimming their posts to just their own reply and the pertinent lines of the previous post. The discussion is
                                                Message 23 of 25 , Jul 22, 2012
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                                                  I don't mind so long as everyone starts trimming their posts to just their own reply and the pertinent lines of the previous post.

                                                  The discussion is fascinating, but it's more than a little unecessary not to clip the post, especially when the replies are so long.

                                                  --- In Apicius@yahoogroups.com, sallygrain@... wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > Hi justine and all
                                                  >
                                                  > this is getting wonderfully complicated but as i have always wanted to get to grips with what Pliny says here i do think we might continue if no one minds ? Take care of your feast first by all means! Hope it goes well
                                                • Justin Mansfield
                                                  Yeah, sorry about that. The thought did occur to me, but not until my last reply. ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  Message 24 of 25 , Jul 22, 2012
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    Yeah, sorry about that. The thought did occur to me, but not until my last
                                                    reply.

                                                    On Sun, Jul 22, 2012 at 9:50 AM, Saerlaith <saerlaith.sca@...> wrote:

                                                    > **
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > I don't mind so long as everyone starts trimming their posts to just their
                                                    > own reply and the pertinent lines of the previous post.
                                                    >
                                                    > The discussion is fascinating, but it's more than a little unecessary not
                                                    > to clip the post, especially when the replies are so long.
                                                    >


                                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  • sallygrain@aol.com
                                                    However, this does leave me looking again at his paragraph on the topic, a bit confused. It seems like the first sentence is definitely about allex (since, you
                                                    Message 25 of 25 , Jul 24, 2012
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                                                      However, this does leave me looking again at his paragraph on the topic, a
                                                      bit confused. It seems like the first sentence is definitely about allex
                                                      (since, you know, he names it specifically), and it seems generally agreed
                                                      that "ad colorem ... dilutum" refers to garum (as opposed to allex). And it
                                                      seems to be generally assumed that the reference to kosher products would
                                                      be about garum, or fish-sauce in general. But then in the last sentence he
                                                      explicitly mentions allex again (where he mentions oysters, sea urchins,
                                                      jelly fish, mullet livers, and so on). So I don't know what to tell you.




                                                      I think you have hit the nail on the head re this bit of confused rambling by Pliny. I really dont think he knows what he is talking about to be honest It is one of the major problems we have with his work as he was inclined to just write out everything he could find about a given topic without any judgement or critical thinking and this often leads to confusion. I think this is the reason why it makes no sense, he didn't fully comprehend what the individual products were he was discussing, and in fact if that is the case then we cannot trust any of it! He was, according to his nephew, inclined to read everyone else's works on a given topic and then makes notes so that he could precis their knowledge for his own books (letter 3.5). We have to assume that the books he read were written by people with some empirical knowledge of the topic even if he clearly demonstrates limited empirical knowledge. The reversal of the kosher issue implies considerable lack of attention and I guess he was rather indifferent to the topic. His diet is also referred to in the letter above as being very simple and traditional. Pliny the elder would not be included among those who indulge in Roman delicacies I feel. Having determined that Pliny is somewhat confused we have to find other references to the issues that seem to make no sence and see how much of it is supported elsewhere Pliny should not be used as a primary source for garum that for sure.

                                                      Pliny but also the Romans generally do seem to be confused by the complex nomenclature of fish sauce and I think their confusion feeds ours.
                                                      Pliny refers to garum as a elite and expensive sauce made from fish viscera and waste matter generally and I have made the judgment that this must have originally referred to the blood viscera sauce which we know was considered elite and expensive according to the Geoponica. It does not follow that the waste matter he referr to would necessarily be other small fish - thus turning the blood viscera sauce into a general fish sauce. ( I originally did think this but have changed my mind) I assume the more expensive garum was made from selected fish ie all Spanish mackerel for instance from New carthage mentioned by Pliny as costing thousands of HS or all tuna viscera as mentioned by the Geoponica. Thus the ordinary garum would i think be made from a mixture of any old fish viscera and blood. It is not easy to harvest fish blood from mackerel, easier for tuna if large enough, but when done well - note - 'made from the blood of a still breathing mackerel' is indicative of the technique required - the resulting sauce could be both black and bloody which is how this sauce is described by Galen and also a bloody sauce is referred to in a papyrus fragment. If however the fish are not adequately bled then the sauce - here i can demonstrate through empirical experience as i tried to make a garum with already dead mackerel and could not get much blood out of them - would resemble an ordinary fish sauce made from whole small fish the liquefied liquamen . Ie it is pale - dark brown and they are indistinguishable from each other though the protein levels are actually quite high in the viscera one. Interesting! When at table how would a diner know what he was consuming? A black bloody viscera sauce blended with sweet wine would look brown - aged honey wine, a liquamen blended with wine would look like aged honey wine and an inadequately made garum would look like aged honey wine. Like most luxury foods if you dont know that you are eating expensive food you often could not guess.

                                                      Pliny then in the next paragraph talks about allec being the residue of this garum but believe me the residue from blood viscera garum is not fit for consumption even for Cato's slaves!. We know from the Geoponica that allec / alix was the residue from the sauce made from whole fish and here we see that Pliny thinks in terms of one sauce - the single sauce hypotheses - that Robert Curtis et al also edvocate. The Geoponica is quite clear that the two sauces were separate. Once we see Pliny's confusion and even why he might be confused i think it puts the paragraph about allec into perspective. We cannot look for any rational or logical thought processors within the Latin. Given this I will look again at the allec passage - maybe i am expecting too much of the latin as it stands.

                                                      sally

                                                      -----Original Message-----
                                                      From: Justin Mansfield <iustinus@...>
                                                      To: Apicius <Apicius@yahoogroups.com>
                                                      Sent: Sat, 21 Jul 2012 19:59
                                                      Subject: Re: [Apicius] Garum and Liquamen (again)





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