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  • LrdRas@aol.com
    In a message dated 11/30/99 6:07:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, correus@yahoo.com writes: The link to the recipes is
    Message 1 of 3 , Nov 30, 1999
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      In a message dated 11/30/99 6:07:04 PM Eastern Standard Time,
      correus@... writes:

      << www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/8337 >>

      The link to the recipes is the Living History button and then you have to
      scroll down the page past the stove description until you get to them.

      This part of the site on Garum is particularly interesting:

      Enjoy! :-)

    • ChannonM@xxx.xxx
      I had promised last week to post some discussion that took place on another list regarding garum. I would like to note that there are 3 people discussing the
      Message 2 of 3 , Dec 2, 1999
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        I had promised last week to post some discussion that took place on another
        list regarding garum. I would like to note that there are 3 people discussing
        the issue and all three have given permission to use these posts. The posters
        are Anahita, Adamantius and our own Marco Bernini. I have edited some of the
        content, but I have not altered the information presented.

        I hope this is enlightening to all who read it.

        A Discussion on Garum
        The difference between anchovy paste, soy sauce, nuac mam (Asian fish sauces)
        and garum;
        The process is different, to say the least. Soybeans are boiled,drained,
        mashed and formed into cakes, which are then left in a darkplace to grow a
        particular mold (as you mention in another context, astarter may be added) in
        a process pretty similar to that used formaking sake. The mold-converted
        cakes are then steeped several times toproduce different grades f soy sauce,
        and some people eat the leftovercakes, which are believed to be the cause of
        the extremely high rate ofstomach cancer in populations where soy sauce is
        made locally. Nevermind that so many Asians, even now, are chain smokers. But
        this is also,I believe, the source of Charles Perry's theory that murri may
        be acarcinogen, or contain carcinogens, because soy sauce is far, far
        morelike murri than like Asian fish sauce.

        > >What happens is that the fish liquefy over time as the coarse salt melts
        and> >a thick lumpy brine is formed.

        And this is due not to the salt, either, but to the presence of enzymes in
        great amounts in the fish entrails, and to a lesser extent in the muscle
        itself (Some Philipino versions of bagoong, I think it's called,are made with
        gutted fish: they'd likely be the source of the idea that these sauces are
        supposed to be sour as well as salty and fishy).
        > What i'm not certain of is: how different is the liquid from this> stuff,
        finely strained, is from fish sauce? How different is the> process of
        producing Southeast Asian fish sauce from that of> producing liquamen/garum?
        According to some authorities, not much, provided there's enough salt
        toprevent lactic fermentation, which does occur in some Asian fish sauces,but
        not in all.

        > I've watched the beginnings of making some shrimp paste in an> Indonesian
        village (strictly for local use), and it was basically> layering tiny shrimp
        with salt and letting it stand, although i don't> know if there was some
        sort of "starter" (along the lines of mother
        > of vinegar, or yeast, or using yogurt to start a new batch) or
        > something was introduced later in the process...

        No starter, AFAIK. I've seen this shrimp paste in jars in my
        neighborhood, in several forms, some made from dried shrimp, producing a
        mysterious purplish paste, others grey or nearly white, depending on
        differences in the process according to different regional traditions.

        > After reading enough old
        > cookbooks, it seems to me that some things have disappeared from
        > cuisines, while new things have become popular. I don't think it can
        > be assumed that if something was important in the Roman Empire it
        > would necessarily survive virtually unchanged for 1500 years. Maybe
        > it did, but it seems to me highly likely that time did not stand
        > still even in isolated Italian country villages.

        Ya think? ; ) As I said, the toga, real Latin, and a dislike for
        Certain North African Empires comes to mind as social factors that have
        simply become extinct. I'm sure there are other culinary examples that
        come to mind: certain of the wine preparations, for example, the habit
        of boiling and pureeing vegetables only to thicken them again into
        custards, probably the extensive use of pennyroyal. I'm sure there are others.

        > However, i like anchovies on my pizza and in my Caesar salad (yeah, i
        > know, not Italian).

        Mexican of Italian descent, however.

        > And i have no objection to anchovy paste. So if
        > anchovy paste is like liquamen/garum, i can live with that.

        > So, since you've tasted a liquamen made the old
        > Roman way, how different is it from fish sauce? How different from
        > liquified anchovy paste? Would a blend of the two in any way
        > approximate it, or would that be far too different?

        Real garum seems to taste pretty close to anchovy paste, but the color
        and texture aren't even close, and the aroma of either is actually
        rather mild compared to what you might expect. I guess it would depend
        on your use. What I tasted was a clear yellowish-to-amber liquid, with a
        body or "mouth feel" like ale; it's as if it had a high enough specific
        gravity you could taste it -- it's a bit heavier than the SE Asian fish
        sauces I'm familiar with. A slight oiliness, but not much -- I assume
        this is natural fish oil. Garum was always thought to be an extremely
        healthy food product, provided you're not a tunny or a mackerel... . It
        definitely tasted of anchovies, and then so did the nam pla that was
        placed alongside it for comparison, but they weren't the same. I think
        perhaps the trace of oil was missing from the nam pla. Maybe if one were
        to blenderize a can of anchovies in oil in nam pla or another
        non-vinegar-based fish sauce, then let the solids settle out, that'd be
        a closer approximation. I'm also a bit surprised that some of the
        "quick" boiled versions haven't been experimented with more. I think
        it's what Flower and Rosenbaum used for their various trials of Roman

        > (i don't think i'm ready to keep a jar of fish and salt layered in my
        > kitchen, although possibly some day...)

        No, silly, you keep it in a sunny part of the back yard!


        Marco Bernini writes,
        Below is a recipe from Gargilius Martialis 3rd C AD as published in the
        excellent book �A Cena da Lucullo� by Ilaria Gozzini Giacosa (published in
        English as �A Taste of Ancient Rome�) plus a quick and clean variation that I
        have developed myself from a modern day Roman salad dressing.

        Garum (Gargilius Martialis 3C AD)
        Use fresh fatty fish e.g.. anchovies, sardines or mackerel.
        Dried aromatic herbs such as: dill, coriander, fennel, celery seed, mint,
        oregano and rosemary.
        Coarse sea salt
        Clean and wash the fish removing heads fins and guts if desired. (the guts
        impart a bitter flavour) Taking a large preserving or pickling jar (the wider
        the better) place a generous layer of herbs on the the bottom of the jar then
        place a layer of fish on the top (cutting the fish into sections if it is
        large) placing them fairly tightly packed.
        Over this add a layer of coarse sea salt (must be sea salt) about � inch
        thick! Repeat these three layers till you have filled the jar to the top.
        Let the container rest in the sun for seven days (this is the traditional
        Then mix the sauce daily for a further twenty days. After that time it
        becomes a liquid and can be filtered if necessary.
        Here is a quickish clean garum of my own:

        6 tubes of anchovy paste, (or 12 small tins of anchovy fillets drained and
        liquidized) � teaspoon of each of the above herbs but fresh if possible.
        1 clove of Garlic (crush it with the side of a knife)
        Good olive oil
        Wine vinegar
        Finely chop the herbs and place in a bowl. Add the anchovy paste, add the
        crushed garlic clove, ground black pepper (the quantity will dictate the
        �hotness� of the garum) a little vinegar and the olive oil, mix well (in
        ablender if necessary)
        The resulting sauce should pour easily, if not add more oil or white wine if
        you like. Store in the fridge for a day before use and always shake well
        adding to recipes. Use sparingly as it is salty and often replaces salt in
        recipes. Makes an excellent dressing for lettuce and rocket salads, the
        traditional Roman hors d�oeuvre and is used in Rome today to dress
        �puntarelle� a salad leaf from the dandelion family that has been eaten in
        and around Rome for more than 2,000 years.Enjoy!
        P.S. If you should keel over with food poisoning after trying the ancient
        recipe I deny any responsibility! :)
        Marco Berni
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