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  • James Matterer
    http://johnsonlyryme.chat.ru
    Message 1 of 7 , Jun 2, 2010
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    • richard robinson
      Hi some of us australian romans are planning a five day trek in our springtime (October) and are discussing how long corned beef keep before it goes wrong- and
      Message 2 of 7 , Jun 2, 2010
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        Hi
        some of us australian romans are planning a five day trek in our springtime (October)
        and are discussing how long corned beef keep before it goes wrong- and other meats also.
        If we pack it in salt does that preserve it enough?
        Hungry for Info
        Richard





         
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      • Lucia Clark
        Have you tried prosciutto? It is salt cured pork. I found a recipe by Cato the Elder on how to cure it. Of course it is a well known Italian cold cut so you
        Message 3 of 7 , Jun 3, 2010
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          Have you tried prosciutto? It is salt cured pork. I found a recipe by Cato
          the Elder on how to cure it. Of course it is a well known Italian cold cut
          so you should find it in an Italian store. If you bring a chunk that you
          will slice as needed it should keep.

          Lucia



          _____

          From: Apicius@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Apicius@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
          richard robinson
          Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2010 1:40 AM
          To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [Apicius] salted meat longevity





          Hi
          some of us australian romans are planning a five day trek in our springtime
          (October)
          and are discussing how long corned beef keep before it goes wrong- and other
          meats also.
          If we pack it in salt does that preserve it enough?
          Hungry for Info
          Richard


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        • Brent Nielsen
          Read Master and Commander by PAtrick Obrian, he also wrote a historical piece on the British Royal Navy including a chapter on ships bisquit and the
          Message 4 of 7 , Jun 3, 2010
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            Read Master and Commander by PAtrick Obrian, he also wrote a historical piece on the British Royal Navy including a chapter on ships bisquit and the preservation of salt pork. The Brits salted it so heavily it had to be dragged under the ship (in slat water) to rinse the salt off enough to make it edible, but the meat was preserved! As long as it is kept out of the air it will keep!



            ________________________________
            From: richard robinson <helmetwise@...>
            To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Wed, June 2, 2010 10:39:56 PM
            Subject: [Apicius] salted meat longevity

             
            Hi
            some of us australian romans are planning a five day trek in our springtime (October)
            and are discussing how long corned beef keep before it goes wrong- and other meats also.
            If we pack it in salt does that preserve it enough?
            Hungry for Info
            Richard

             
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          • Julien Courtois
            Hello You may want to check the Wikipedia article on curing : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curing_%28food_preservation%29 Salt is one possibility, but you may
            Message 5 of 7 , Jun 6, 2010
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              Hello



              You may want to check the Wikipedia article on curing :



              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curing_%28food_preservation%29



              Salt is one possibility, but you may want to try sugar too (Apicius 1.8) :



              « How to keep meat fresh whenewer you like without salt : any meat you want to keep fresh should be covered with honey, so long as the vesse lis hung up ; you can use it when you like. This is better done in winter ; in summer i twill last only a few days. You may do the same with cooked meat.“ (translation from the book of Christopher Grocock an Sally Grainger)



              There are more preseving recipes in Apicius 1.9 to 1.14.


              Preservation with Nitrates and nitrites is (I think) a more modern way of preservation. If somebody could check that.


              As you are saying that you go on a treck, there is the excellent book on Roman military food : « Panis Militars/Die Ernährung des Römisches Soldaten/Marcus Junkelmans“, in German only!


              If you’re doing your own salted meat, please use common sense and throw it away if it’s smelling funny !! (But there are already a ton of commercial products)


              Be aware that salting meat needs a lot of time (6 months to 2 years !!! Information taken from the French and German Wikipedia on salting http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einsalzen and http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salaison )


              Hope that helps !


              Julien








              De : Apicius@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Apicius@yahoogroups.com] De la part de richard robinson
              Envoyé : jeudi 3 juin 2010 07:40
              À : Apicius@yahoogroups.com
              Objet : [Apicius] salted meat longevity





              Hi
              some of us australian romans are planning a five day trek in our springtime (October)
              and are discussing how long corned beef keep before it goes wrong- and other meats also.
              If we pack it in salt does that preserve it enough?
              Hungry for Info
              Richard


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            • Andrew Fenton
              As an amateur charcutier who is fanatical about food safety, this strikes me as a case in which historical accuracy should probably take a backseat to safety.
              Message 6 of 7 , Jun 6, 2010
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                As an amateur charcutier who is fanatical about food safety, this strikes me
                as a case in which historical accuracy should probably take a backseat to
                safety. There are lots of good references out there that have to do with
                preserving meats (I've listed a couple at the end), but much as I like
                Apicius and Cato, I wouldn't take my cues from them. That said, here are my
                thoughts on a few options:

                Corned beef is probably a bad idea. The sort of corned beef we buy (or
                make- it's not hard) today has a high water content and won't last on a
                hike. I wouldn't even consider keeping it out at room temperature for more
                than a few hours before cooking.

                Salt beef (as mentioned with reference to Master and Commander) would last
                on a hike. However, it's impractical: it has to be soaked in several
                changes of water over the course of a day in order for it to be edible. I
                don't know how you'd manage that on a hike; and dumping a whole bunch of
                salt water at your campsite strikes me a nasty thing to do, unless you're
                pretending to be the Romans at Carthage. Moreover, I don't know where you'd
                buy salt beef; it's not eaten much nowadays- from Patrick O'Brien, it sounds
                pretty nasty. Salt cod (baccala) is widely available and is delicious, but
                presents the same problems of water use as does beef.

                Dry-cured sausages (salami and so forth) are a good bet. Buy one that is
                sold and stored at room temperature and you'll be fine. Beef jerky isn't to
                my knowledge Roman, but it will last indefinitely, and is easy to make
                yourself. Always a good bet for camping.

                Two good charcuterie references (for food safety, and for preservation) are
                Ruhlman and Polcyn, _Charcuterie_
                Marianski and Marianski, _The Art of Making Fermented Sausages_

                Good luck, and enjoy your trek!

                Andrew

                On Sun, Jun 6, 2010 at 5:23 AM, Julien Courtois <
                julien.courtois@...> wrote:

                >
                >
                > Hello
                >
                > You may want to check the Wikipedia article on curing :
                >
                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curing_%28food_preservation%29
                >
                > Salt is one possibility, but you may want to try sugar too (Apicius 1.8) :
                >
                > � How to keep meat fresh whenewer you like without salt : any meat you want
                > to keep fresh should be covered with honey, so long as the vesse lis hung up
                > ; you can use it when you like. This is better done in winter ; in summer i
                > twill last only a few days. You may do the same with cooked meat.�
                > (translation from the book of Christopher Grocock an Sally Grainger)
                >
                > There are more preseving recipes in Apicius 1.9 to 1.14.
                >
                > Preservation with Nitrates and nitrites is (I think) a more modern way of
                > preservation. If somebody could check that.
                >
                > As you are saying that you go on a treck, there is the excellent book on
                > Roman military food : � Panis Militars/Die Ern�hrung des R�misches
                > Soldaten/Marcus Junkelmans�, in German only!
                >
                > If you�re doing your own salted meat, please use common sense and throw it
                > away if it�s smelling funny !! (But there are already a ton of commercial
                > products)
                >
                > Be aware that salting meat needs a lot of time (6 months to 2 years !!!
                > Information taken from the French and German Wikipedia on salting
                > http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einsalzen and
                > http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salaison )
                >
                > Hope that helps !
                >
                > Julien
                >
                > De : Apicius@yahoogroups.com <Apicius%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:
                > Apicius@yahoogroups.com <Apicius%40yahoogroups.com>] De la part de richard
                > robinson
                > Envoy� : jeudi 3 juin 2010 07:40
                > � : Apicius@yahoogroups.com <Apicius%40yahoogroups.com>
                > Objet : [Apicius] salted meat longevity
                >
                >
                > Hi
                > some of us australian romans are planning a five day trek in our springtime
                > (October)
                > and are discussing how long corned beef keep before it goes wrong- and
                > other meats also.
                > If we pack it in salt does that preserve it enough?
                > Hungry for Info
                > Richard
                >
                > Recent Activity:
                >
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                >


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              • richard robinson
                Thankyou Julien et al I was not aware that salting took so long I have a German friend that has said book and he is one of our organisers. Being German and a
                Message 7 of 7 , Jun 6, 2010
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                  Thankyou Julien et al
                  I was not aware that salting took so long
                  I have a German friend that has said book and he is one of our organisers. Being German and
                  a baker he will be supplying us with zwiebeck which will be a change from the hardtack I normally prepare.
                  I have enjoyed the responses to this question and have found them joyful and educational
                  regards
                  Richard
                  www.nemas.org.au



                   

                  From: Julien Courtois <julien.courtois@...>
                  Subject: RE: [Apicius] salted meat longevity
                  To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
                  Received: Sunday, 6 June, 2010, 2:23 AM


                   



                  Hello

                  You may want to check the Wikipedia article on curing :

                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curing_%28food_preservation%29

                  Salt is one possibility, but you may want to try sugar too (Apicius 1.8) :

                  « How to keep meat fresh whenewer you like without salt : any meat you want to keep fresh should be covered with honey, so long as the vesse lis hung up ; you can use it when you like. This is better done in winter ; in summer i twill last only a few days. You may do the same with cooked meat.“ (translation from the book of Christopher Grocock an Sally Grainger)

                  There are more preseving recipes in Apicius 1.9 to 1.14.

                  Preservation with Nitrates and nitrites is (I think) a more modern way of preservation. If somebody could check that.

                  As you are saying that you go on a treck, there is the excellent book on Roman military food : « Panis Militars/Die Ernährung des Römisches Soldaten/Marcus Junkelmans“, in German only!

                  If you’re doing your own salted meat, please use common sense and throw it away if it’s smelling funny !! (But there are already a ton of commercial products)

                  Be aware that salting meat needs a lot of time (6 months to 2 years !!! Information taken from the French and German Wikipedia on salting http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einsalzen and http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salaison )

                  Hope that helps !

                  Julien

                  De : Apicius@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Apicius@yahoogroups.com] De la part de richard robinson
                  Envoyé : jeudi 3 juin 2010 07:40
                  À : Apicius@yahoogroups.com
                  Objet : [Apicius] salted meat longevity

                  Hi
                  some of us australian romans are planning a five day trek in our springtime (October)
                  and are discussing how long corned beef keep before it goes wrong- and other meats also.
                  If we pack it in salt does that preserve it enough?
                  Hungry for Info
                  Richard

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