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Re: [Apicius] Non-Roman Foods

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  • Freydis the Good
    I was told bell peppers were new world too and some varieties of squash. Though I ve found nothing on the squash, I have read tidbits on the peppers. And now
    Message 1 of 33 , Sep 30, 2009
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      I was told bell peppers were new world too and some varieties of squash.
      Though I've found nothing on the squash, I have read tidbits on the peppers.

      And now that I am looking into this, have also found these foods not native
      to Rome:
      Prickly Pear
      Mamey Sapote
      Boniato


      Interesting question though!

      SMILES!
      Freydis



      On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 9:31 AM, Samia al-Kaslaania <samia@...>
      wrote:
      >
      >
      >
      > I believe that _Around the Roman Table_ indicates that rosemary and
      > basil were used as fragrant table setting and switched between courses.
      >
      > Samia
      >
      > Lucia Clark wrote:
      > > Tomatoes, potatoes, sugar and rosemary (used in medicine not in the
      > > kitchen), probably basil, which occurs in only one recipe by Giacosa who
      > > does not give the source, and it is mentioned by Celsus among the
      > > Medicamenta, the medications, but not in the foods. Rosemary is included
      in
      > > cooking only in 900 AD by Tragus. Any more anyone? This is interesting
      > >
      > > Lucia
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Phoenix
      I didn t say they didn t eat any beans or legumes - merely that I remebered the story of the black & white beans, while not recalling the source. I simply
      Message 33 of 33 , Oct 9, 2009
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        I didn't say they didn't eat any beans or legumes - merely that I remebered the story of the black & white beans, while not recalling the source. I simply asked if anyone else had heard of this situation or story.

        Thanks, Steve. You are a bay leaf amongst we whole-grain folks.
        Happy Weekend,
        Demetria

        --- In Apicius@yahoogroups.com, "kristin_steven" <steve.thompson@...> wrote:
        >
        > While I'm reluctant to correct someone named Demetria on matters Greek, her assertion that ancient Greeks did not eat beans seems incorrect. Legumes, including some bean varieties, made up part of the diet of your typical ancient Greek-on-the-street. They were boiled and eaten, or ground and added to flour for bread. Pythagoras apparently urged his followers to avoid beans, for the reason Demetria mentioned. Roman bean consumption is attested by archaeological discoveries in several food preparation sites in Pompei.
        >
        > Steve
        >
        >
        > --- In Apicius@yahoogroups.com, "Phoenix" <hail_isis@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Perhaps someone else will remember this: The Greeks had white beans and black beans ( not 'spotted'). They used them in the drawing of lots and to feed livestock. Humans didn't eat them because beans sprout so readily that they bring to mind: rebirth. Resultant gaseous expressions if eaten may have been superstitiously thought by some to be 'spirits', whether from the ancestors or the elements I do not remember.
        > >
        > > Rosemary was probably used in the 1st Millennium BCE for cooking, though I have to find evidence. It is placed into little cuts all over a piece of meat, even as some stud a ham with cloves today. I have seen elders stuff garlic cloves and rosemary together into these little "seasoning cuts", and there is no written recipe for it.
        > >
        > > There were "... marrows, bottle-gourds (lagenaria), cucumbers and a species of watermelon." p.118, Art, Cuisine, & Culture, Phyllis Pray Bober, University of Chicago Press, ©1999. Professor Bober mentions that watermelons were cultivated at least as early as 2000 BCE by the Egyptians. "Legumes were also grown in the Near East from Neolithic times: lentils, lupins, chickpeas, vetches, peas, and broad beans." pp. 69-70, ibid.
        > >
        > > This book is great for what it offers, and the bibliography is a bookworm's dream for anyone trying to research about ancient foods.
        > > we can also look at texts that list inventories of trade goods to see what the import market was like back in the earlier days of globalization.
        > >
        > > What a great thread to follow! Maybe sometime we can explore gardens that we grow to supply us with these tasty items.
        > >
        > > Happy Weekend to All,
        > > Demetria
        > >
        > > --- In Apicius@yahoogroups.com, "Lucia Clark" <luciaclark@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > Celsus lists "Faba, Lenticula atque pisum", Fava, lentils and peas. He also
        > > > mentions, among the "weak" foods, anything that grows on soft stalks, like
        > > > cucumbers and, we can surmise, fresh peas and fava. However, when I was in
        > > > Perugia I was told that a local type of beans, quite small, the size of
        > > > peas, is autochthonous of Umbria and we could possibly infer that the Romans
        > > > knew about it. Not sure what the name is. Will look it up un November on my
        > > > next trip.
        > > >
        > > > Lucia
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > _____
        > > >
        > > > From: Apicius@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Apicius@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
        > > > jdm314@
        > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2009 1:35 PM
        > > > To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
        > > > Subject: Re: [Apicius] Non-Roman Foods
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > > -- All Dried Beans, other than favas (there are other pulses, such as
        > > >
        > > > > garbanzos & lentils, but they aren't beans)
        > > >
        > > > The Romance languages distinguish between fava/fève/haba/etc, and
        > > > faggiolo/haricot/frijol/etc. The Romans had the former, but not the
        > > > latter... with the qualification that the latter set of terms comes from
        > > > Latin "fasellus," which obviously meant something the Romans did have. Dalby
        > > > identifies it with the black-eyed pea.
        > > >
        > > > > -- Sweet Potatoes - these is North American and was fairly quickly
        > > >
        > > > > adopted in 16th c. Europe (some Americans call yam, but it's a sweet
        > > >
        > > > > potato)
        > > >
        > > > Well, it's pointless to insist on the distinction between "sweet potato" and
        > > > "yam" in this context, because they're *both* New World plants.
        > > >
        > > > > -- Allspice (called something else in Europe)
        > > >
        > > > Interesting. Wikipedia lists several alternate names, but says nothing about
        > > > the distribution thereof. Any European anglophones want to clarify?
        > > >
        > > > > -- Citrus - some made it in Roman times, such as citron, but most
        > > >
        > > > > hadn't, and sweet oranges didn't exist until the 16th c.
        > > >
        > > > And, critically, the citron is not really edible.
        > > >
        > > > > -- Fresh green peas - dried field peas are European (i don't recall
        > > >
        > > > > if they're Roman), but tender fresh ones don't show up until the 16th
        > > >
        > > > > c.
        > > >
        > > > The Romans definitely had peas, though if they were different from ours I
        > > > cannot say.
        > > >
        > > > But I'm confusd about the distinction you draw here and above between fresh
        > > > legumes and dried legumes. I had thou
        > > > ght this was was a difference of preparation, not of variety.
        > > >
        > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > >
        >
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