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Re: [Apicius] Frank's Steak

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  • RM
    There is certainly nothing(!) with sugar and orange from the 5th century in Europe - perhaps from the 13th century or later. So it s better not to believe it
    Message 1 of 6 , Feb 8, 2009
      There is certainly nothing(!) with sugar and orange from the 5th century in Europe - perhaps from the 13th century or later. So it's better not to believe it at all ;-)

      :-) RM

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Heather Rose Jones
      To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 6:52 PM
      Subject: Re: [Apicius] Frank's Steak



      On Feb 8, 2009, at 8:43 AM, jdm314@... wrote:

      > http://video.nytimes.com/video/2009/01/27/dining/1231546403635/franks-steak.html
      > http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/28/dining/28mini.html
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > A recipe which, according to restaurateur Frank de Carlo, dates to
      > the fifth century. He says nothing about sources (my suspicion is
      > Venetian folk tradition), but inasmuch as it's meat marinated in
      > wine and spices it's plausible enough, even if the nutmeg is
      > anachronistic.

      The fact that he starts the description of the history with "legend
      has it" suggests to me that all bets are off. If you follow the
      description carefully, the implication is that only the marinating in
      wine is ascribed to the 5th century; and that the spices used in the
      modern recipe are ascribed to "1000 years ago". Even at that, the
      spicing is more reminiscent of 14-15th century cuisine than what
      little we know of earlier.

      If I had to bet money, it would be that the recipe is a modern
      invention, inspired to some extent by late medieval cuisine, and
      dressed up in a historic fiction to make it sound more interesting and
      in the expectation that nobody who matters will care about the
      details. That is, my money is on it being Frank de Carlo's steak, not
      the steak of the Frankish invaders of Italy.

      It does sound delicious.

      Heather



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • jdm314@aol.com
      There is certainly nothing(!) with sugar and orange from the 5th century in Europe - perhaps from the 13th century or later. So it s better not to believe it
      Message 2 of 6 , Feb 8, 2009
        There is certainly nothing(!) with sugar and orange from the 5th century in Europe - perhaps from the 13th century or later. So it's better not to believe it at all ;-)

        Oh, I somehow missed that an actual redaction is available at http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/28/dining/281mrex.html?ref=dining



        My assumption in any case was that this is some sort of traditional Venetian dish that legend connects to that historical incident. If that's even the case, it's at least possible the dish evolved from that source, but even so that's not much to go on!


        -----Original Message-----
        From: RM <apicius@...>
        To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Sun, 8 Feb 2009 6:06 pm
        Subject: Re: [Apicius] Frank's Steak





























        There is certainly nothing(!) with sugar and orange from the 5th century in Europe - perhaps from the 13th century or later. So it's better not to believe it at all ;-)



        :-) RM



        ----- Original Message -----

        From: Heather Rose Jones

        To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com

        Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 6:52 PM

        Subject: Re: [Apicius] Frank's Steak



        On Feb 8, 2009, at 8:43 AM, jdm314@... wrote:



        > http://video.nytimes.com/video/2009/01/27/dining/1231546403635/franks-steak.html

        > http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/28/dining/28mini.html

        >

        >

        >

        >

        >

        > A recipe which, according to restaurateur Frank de Carlo, dates to

        > the fifth century.
        He says nothing about sources (my suspicion is

        > Venetian folk tradition), but inasmuch as it's meat marinated in

        > wine and spices it's plausible enough, even if the nutmeg is

        > anachronistic.



        The fact that he starts the description of the history with "legend

        has it" suggests to me that all bets are off. If you follow the

        description carefully, the implication is that only the marinating in

        wine is ascribed to the 5th century; and that the spices used in the

        modern recipe are ascribed to "1000 years ago". Even at that, the

        spicing is more reminiscent of 14-15th century cuisine than what

        little we know of earlier.



        If I had to bet money, it would be that the recipe is a modern

        invention, inspired to some extent by late medieval cuisine, and

        dressed up in a historic fiction to make it sound more interesting and

        in the expectation that nobody who matters will care about the

        details. That is, my money is on it being Frank de Carlo's steak, not

        the steak of the Frankish invaders of Italy.



        It does sound delicious.



        Heather



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]









































        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Crystal
        ... http://video.nytimes.com/video/2009/01/27/dining/1231546403635/franks- steak.html ... the fifth century. He says nothing about sources (my suspicion is
        Message 3 of 6 , Feb 9, 2009
          --- In Apicius@yahoogroups.com, jdm314@... wrote:
          >
          >
          http://video.nytimes.com/video/2009/01/27/dining/1231546403635/franks-
          steak.html
          > http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/28/dining/28mini.html

          > A recipe which, according to restaurateur Frank de Carlo, dates to
          the fifth century. He says nothing about sources (my suspicion is
          Venetian folk tradition), but inasmuch as it's meat marinated in wine
          and spices it's plausible enough, even if the nutmeg is
          anachronistic. 
          >

          > Can anyone provide more information? Lucia, do you know anything
          about this recipe? The fact that he gives no official name, not even
          whatever they call it in Venice, makes it a little difficult to check.
          >

          People love to feel like they're getting part of history, right? Or
          that something sounds exotic. Reminds me of going to a Mario Batali
          restaurant in Vegas recently and on the menu they had some dish cooked
          with "Apician spices." When I asked what the spices happened to be,
          it turned out to be cinnamon, cardamom and nutmeg. Cinnamon was a
          medicine in ancient Rome, if I'm not mistaken, and nutmeg didn't
          appear until the Middle Ages. So maybe it was a substitution of some
          sort but really I think it's all about the marketing spin sometimes...
        • jdm314@aol.com
          Cinnamon was a medicine in ancient Rome, if I m not mistaken,  I don t know offhand if it shows up in food (if it does, it certainly isn t common), but I do
          Message 4 of 6 , Feb 9, 2009
            Cinnamon was a medicine in ancient Rome, if I'm not mistaken, 
            I don't know offhand if it shows up in food (if it does, it certainly isn't common), but I do know that it shows up in at least one medical conditum. So, there's medical, and then there's medical. What I'm trying to say is that cinnamon may have been medical, but that doesn't mean it was as foreign to cuisine as, say, sugar.
            and nutmeg didn't appear until the Middle Ages.
            Agreed.

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Crystal <crystallyn@...>
            To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 2:28 pm
            Subject: [Apicius] Re: Frank's Steak





























            --- In Apicius@yahoogroups.com, jdm314@... wrote:

            >

            >

            http://video.nytimes.com/video/2009/01/27/dining/1231546403635/franks-

            steak.html

            > http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/28/dining/28mini.html



            > A recipe which, according to restaurateur Frank de Carlo, dates to

            the fifth century. He says nothing about sources (my suspicion is

            Venetian folk tradition), but inasmuch as it's meat marinated in wine

            and spices it's plausible enough, even if the nutmeg is

            anachronistic. 

            >



            > Can anyone provide more information? Lucia, do you know anything

            about this recipe? The fact that he gives no official name, not even

            whatever they call it in Venice, makes it a little difficult to check.

            >



            People love to feel like they're getting part of history, right? Or

            that something=2
            0sounds exotic. Reminds me of going to a Mario Batali

            restaurant in Vegas recently and on the menu they had some dish cooked

            with "Apician spices." When I asked what the spices happened to be,

            it turned out to be cinnamon, cardamom and nutmeg. Cinnamon was a

            medicine in ancient Rome, if I'm not mistaken, and nutmeg didn't

            appear until the Middle Ages. So maybe it was a substitution of some

            sort but really I think it's all about the marketing spin sometimes...







































            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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