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Re: [Apicius] Frank's Steak

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  • Heather Rose Jones
    ... The fact that he starts the description of the history with legend has it suggests to me that all bets are off. If you follow the description carefully,
    Message 1 of 6 , Feb 8, 2009
      On Feb 8, 2009, at 8:43 AM, jdm314@... wrote:

      > http://video.nytimes.com/video/2009/01/27/dining/1231546403635/franks-steak.html
      > http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/28/dining/28mini.html
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > A recipe which, according to restaurateur Frank de Carlo, dates to
      > the fifth century. He says nothing about sources (my suspicion is
      > Venetian folk tradition), but inasmuch as it's meat marinated in
      > wine and spices it's plausible enough, even if the nutmeg is
      > anachronistic.

      The fact that he starts the description of the history with "legend
      has it" suggests to me that all bets are off. If you follow the
      description carefully, the implication is that only the marinating in
      wine is ascribed to the 5th century; and that the spices used in the
      modern recipe are ascribed to "1000 years ago". Even at that, the
      spicing is more reminiscent of 14-15th century cuisine than what
      little we know of earlier.

      If I had to bet money, it would be that the recipe is a modern
      invention, inspired to some extent by late medieval cuisine, and
      dressed up in a historic fiction to make it sound more interesting and
      in the expectation that nobody who matters will care about the
      details. That is, my money is on it being Frank de Carlo's steak, not
      the steak of the Frankish invaders of Italy.

      It does sound delicious.

      Heather
    • RM
      There is certainly nothing(!) with sugar and orange from the 5th century in Europe - perhaps from the 13th century or later. So it s better not to believe it
      Message 2 of 6 , Feb 8, 2009
        There is certainly nothing(!) with sugar and orange from the 5th century in Europe - perhaps from the 13th century or later. So it's better not to believe it at all ;-)

        :-) RM

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Heather Rose Jones
        To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 6:52 PM
        Subject: Re: [Apicius] Frank's Steak



        On Feb 8, 2009, at 8:43 AM, jdm314@... wrote:

        > http://video.nytimes.com/video/2009/01/27/dining/1231546403635/franks-steak.html
        > http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/28/dining/28mini.html
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > A recipe which, according to restaurateur Frank de Carlo, dates to
        > the fifth century. He says nothing about sources (my suspicion is
        > Venetian folk tradition), but inasmuch as it's meat marinated in
        > wine and spices it's plausible enough, even if the nutmeg is
        > anachronistic.

        The fact that he starts the description of the history with "legend
        has it" suggests to me that all bets are off. If you follow the
        description carefully, the implication is that only the marinating in
        wine is ascribed to the 5th century; and that the spices used in the
        modern recipe are ascribed to "1000 years ago". Even at that, the
        spicing is more reminiscent of 14-15th century cuisine than what
        little we know of earlier.

        If I had to bet money, it would be that the recipe is a modern
        invention, inspired to some extent by late medieval cuisine, and
        dressed up in a historic fiction to make it sound more interesting and
        in the expectation that nobody who matters will care about the
        details. That is, my money is on it being Frank de Carlo's steak, not
        the steak of the Frankish invaders of Italy.

        It does sound delicious.

        Heather



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • jdm314@aol.com
        There is certainly nothing(!) with sugar and orange from the 5th century in Europe - perhaps from the 13th century or later. So it s better not to believe it
        Message 3 of 6 , Feb 8, 2009
          There is certainly nothing(!) with sugar and orange from the 5th century in Europe - perhaps from the 13th century or later. So it's better not to believe it at all ;-)

          Oh, I somehow missed that an actual redaction is available at http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/28/dining/281mrex.html?ref=dining



          My assumption in any case was that this is some sort of traditional Venetian dish that legend connects to that historical incident. If that's even the case, it's at least possible the dish evolved from that source, but even so that's not much to go on!


          -----Original Message-----
          From: RM <apicius@...>
          To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Sun, 8 Feb 2009 6:06 pm
          Subject: Re: [Apicius] Frank's Steak





























          There is certainly nothing(!) with sugar and orange from the 5th century in Europe - perhaps from the 13th century or later. So it's better not to believe it at all ;-)



          :-) RM



          ----- Original Message -----

          From: Heather Rose Jones

          To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com

          Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 6:52 PM

          Subject: Re: [Apicius] Frank's Steak



          On Feb 8, 2009, at 8:43 AM, jdm314@... wrote:



          > http://video.nytimes.com/video/2009/01/27/dining/1231546403635/franks-steak.html

          > http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/28/dining/28mini.html

          >

          >

          >

          >

          >

          > A recipe which, according to restaurateur Frank de Carlo, dates to

          > the fifth century.
          He says nothing about sources (my suspicion is

          > Venetian folk tradition), but inasmuch as it's meat marinated in

          > wine and spices it's plausible enough, even if the nutmeg is

          > anachronistic.



          The fact that he starts the description of the history with "legend

          has it" suggests to me that all bets are off. If you follow the

          description carefully, the implication is that only the marinating in

          wine is ascribed to the 5th century; and that the spices used in the

          modern recipe are ascribed to "1000 years ago". Even at that, the

          spicing is more reminiscent of 14-15th century cuisine than what

          little we know of earlier.



          If I had to bet money, it would be that the recipe is a modern

          invention, inspired to some extent by late medieval cuisine, and

          dressed up in a historic fiction to make it sound more interesting and

          in the expectation that nobody who matters will care about the

          details. That is, my money is on it being Frank de Carlo's steak, not

          the steak of the Frankish invaders of Italy.



          It does sound delicious.



          Heather



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]









































          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Crystal
          ... http://video.nytimes.com/video/2009/01/27/dining/1231546403635/franks- steak.html ... the fifth century. He says nothing about sources (my suspicion is
          Message 4 of 6 , Feb 9, 2009
            --- In Apicius@yahoogroups.com, jdm314@... wrote:
            >
            >
            http://video.nytimes.com/video/2009/01/27/dining/1231546403635/franks-
            steak.html
            > http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/28/dining/28mini.html

            > A recipe which, according to restaurateur Frank de Carlo, dates to
            the fifth century. He says nothing about sources (my suspicion is
            Venetian folk tradition), but inasmuch as it's meat marinated in wine
            and spices it's plausible enough, even if the nutmeg is
            anachronistic. 
            >

            > Can anyone provide more information? Lucia, do you know anything
            about this recipe? The fact that he gives no official name, not even
            whatever they call it in Venice, makes it a little difficult to check.
            >

            People love to feel like they're getting part of history, right? Or
            that something sounds exotic. Reminds me of going to a Mario Batali
            restaurant in Vegas recently and on the menu they had some dish cooked
            with "Apician spices." When I asked what the spices happened to be,
            it turned out to be cinnamon, cardamom and nutmeg. Cinnamon was a
            medicine in ancient Rome, if I'm not mistaken, and nutmeg didn't
            appear until the Middle Ages. So maybe it was a substitution of some
            sort but really I think it's all about the marketing spin sometimes...
          • jdm314@aol.com
            Cinnamon was a medicine in ancient Rome, if I m not mistaken,  I don t know offhand if it shows up in food (if it does, it certainly isn t common), but I do
            Message 5 of 6 , Feb 9, 2009
              Cinnamon was a medicine in ancient Rome, if I'm not mistaken, 
              I don't know offhand if it shows up in food (if it does, it certainly isn't common), but I do know that it shows up in at least one medical conditum. So, there's medical, and then there's medical. What I'm trying to say is that cinnamon may have been medical, but that doesn't mean it was as foreign to cuisine as, say, sugar.
              and nutmeg didn't appear until the Middle Ages.
              Agreed.

              -----Original Message-----
              From: Crystal <crystallyn@...>
              To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 2:28 pm
              Subject: [Apicius] Re: Frank's Steak





























              --- In Apicius@yahoogroups.com, jdm314@... wrote:

              >

              >

              http://video.nytimes.com/video/2009/01/27/dining/1231546403635/franks-

              steak.html

              > http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/28/dining/28mini.html



              > A recipe which, according to restaurateur Frank de Carlo, dates to

              the fifth century. He says nothing about sources (my suspicion is

              Venetian folk tradition), but inasmuch as it's meat marinated in wine

              and spices it's plausible enough, even if the nutmeg is

              anachronistic. 

              >



              > Can anyone provide more information? Lucia, do you know anything

              about this recipe? The fact that he gives no official name, not even

              whatever they call it in Venice, makes it a little difficult to check.

              >



              People love to feel like they're getting part of history, right? Or

              that something=2
              0sounds exotic. Reminds me of going to a Mario Batali

              restaurant in Vegas recently and on the menu they had some dish cooked

              with "Apician spices." When I asked what the spices happened to be,

              it turned out to be cinnamon, cardamom and nutmeg. Cinnamon was a

              medicine in ancient Rome, if I'm not mistaken, and nutmeg didn't

              appear until the Middle Ages. So maybe it was a substitution of some

              sort but really I think it's all about the marketing spin sometimes...







































              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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