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Fresh Roman Cheese

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  • Correus
    SALVETE OMNES! I found the following on another group.
    Message 1 of 30 , Sep 4, 2007
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      SALVETE OMNES!

      I found the following on another group.

      << Fresh Roman cheese is really easy to make - we made some saturday for a banquet in the evening.

      Just heat up whole milk to warm & add vinegar to curdle it - it doesn't really affect the taste. Then scoop up the solids and drain them through cheese cloth or muslin, add chopped herbs or onion of any other flavouring and press for a couple of hours to remove the last of the liquid.

      Then it is ready to eat. >>

      Have any of you done this? Do you know what quantities to us and what type of vinegar?

      VALETE
      APPIVS·IVLIANVS·CORREVS·APICIVS
      COLONIA BELLE LOCVS
      PROVINCIA AMERICA MEDIOCCIDENTALIS SVPERIOR



      The truth may be boring, and even unpleasant: But it is always better than half truths and out right lies.








      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • toast_y_toes
      Hi there! Yes i ve done this, and it works very well, but you don t get too much cheese for your milk! For around 6 pints of milk (which I think works out to
      Message 2 of 30 , Sep 4, 2007
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        Hi there!



        Yes i've done this, and it works very well, but you don't get too
        much cheese for your milk!

        For around 6 pints of milk (which I think works out to about 3.5
        Litres if memory serves) you will need to add around 1/4 cup of
        vinegar....if it doesn't curdle straight away heat up a bit more,
        and if it still doesn't add a dash more vinegar, you really can't go
        wrong. I use cider or white wine vinegar for it's mild taste.



        Use full fat milk, and if you can get hold on un homogenised then it
        will be even better. Goats milk works just as well.



        I recommend adding quite a lot of salt to the milk as it is heating
        (and I often throw in herbs or bay leaves at the same time- just
        scoop anything you won't want int he finished cheese out before
        adding the vinegar) if you add the salt afterwards it doesn't taste
        as good...it can be quite bland so salt and flavourings are needed.
        Garlic worked particularly well for me this summer.



        Alicia.



        --- In Apicius@yahoogroups.com, Correus <correus@...> wrote:
        >
        > SALVETE OMNES!
        >
        > I found the following on another group.
        >
        > << Fresh Roman cheese is really easy to make - we made some
        saturday for a banquet in the evening.
        >
        > Just heat up whole milk to warm & add vinegar to curdle it - it
        doesn't really affect the taste. Then scoop up the solids and drain
        them through cheese cloth or muslin, add chopped herbs or onion of
        any other flavouring and press for a couple of hours to remove the
        last of the liquid.
        >
        > Then it is ready to eat. >>
        >
        > Have any of you done this? Do you know what quantities to us
        and what type of vinegar?
        >
        > VALETE
        > APPIVS·IVLIANVS·CORREVS·APICIVS
        > COLONIA BELLE LOCVS
        > PROVINCIA AMERICA MEDIOCCIDENTALIS SVPERIOR
        >
        >
        >
        > The truth may be boring, and even unpleasant: But it is always
        better than half truths and out right lies.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • Lilinah
        ... Yes, i ve done this. First, whole milk is essential - and adding an additional cup or two of cream will improve the final product. Second, getting it to
        Message 3 of 30 , Sep 4, 2007
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          Correus wrote:
          >I found the following on another group.
          > >Fresh Roman cheese is really easy to make - we made some saturday
          >for a banquet in the evening.
          > >
          > > Just heat up whole milk to warm & add vinegar to curdle it - it
          >doesn't really affect the taste. Then
          > > scoop up the solids and drain them through cheese cloth or
          >muslin, add chopped herbs or onion of
          > > any other flavouring and press for a couple of hours to remove
          >the last of the liquid.
          >>
          > > Then it is ready to eat.
          >
          >Have any of you done this? Do you know what quantities to us[e] and
          >what type of vinegar?

          Yes, i've done this.

          First, whole milk is essential - and adding an additional cup or two
          of cream will improve the final product. Second, getting it to the
          appropriate temperature is important. The first time i did this, i
          didn't get it hot enough. It needs to get around 115F, IIRC (but
          maybe it's 125...). Third, non-homogenized milk is probably better.
          My curds were rather small, and i suspect that if it's not
          homogenized the curds would be larger. Homogenization breaks down the
          size of the fat particles in the milk so that the cream no longer
          floats to the top. Fourth, a friend swears by non-pasteurized (aka
          raw) milk, but the pasteurized milk i used seemed fine to me.

          What kind of vinegar? Well, i'd suspect that the Romans would use
          wine vinegar. Did they use other types of vinegar? I don't know. BTW,
          most of the vinegar goes into the whey, which is drained off, so i
          don't know how much it would affect the flavor of the cheese.

          How much vinegar to use? about 1/4 vinegar (or lemon juice, if you're
          making something more modern) per gallon of milk.

          Next, what is sold as "cheesecloth" in the US is pretty useless for
          cheese - it's much too loosely woven. Muslin works fine. Muslin in
          the US is, IIRC, called "calico" in the UK - it's unbleached cotton,
          undyed, unprinted, usually used to make garment mock-ups for fitting
          (before cutting into the good fabric). Whatever you use, wash it
          first - fabric often contains all sorts of chemicals to make it feel
          better or stiffer in the store - and just use plain washing
          detergent, no "brighteners", no scents, etc. - you don't want this to
          affect the flavor your cheese...

          This type of cheese isn't particularly Roman. It's basic fresh
          cheese. I served what i made (with no flavoring additives) at an SCA
          event and a young man was there with his lady, who was actually
          (South Asian) Indian, and she said it was like the panir her mother
          made.

          As for the additives for flavor, is there any evidence the Romans
          used them? It has been a while since i've read over Roman recipes, so
          i don't remember.

          While not Roman, grated lemon rind (from well-washed organic lemons)
          is something i like a lot. A friend found a European
          Medieval/Renaissance recipe that used ground cinnamon. And a 13th C.
          'Abbasid recipe (from al-Baghdadi's cookbook) (Shiras bi-Buqal) adds
          mint leaves, celery leaves, vegetable leeks (not clear what these are
          - i used a mix of scallions and chives), salt to taste, and fine
          ground mustard, and is garnished with coarsely chopped walnuts.

          I hope i've said something helpful,

          Anahita
        • Aurelia (Laura Sweet)
          I ve done it, but I ve had better results with fresh lemon juice. It gives the cheese a tasty lemon flavor too! I think I used a half gallon of whole milk and
          Message 4 of 30 , Sep 4, 2007
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            I've done it, but I've had better results with fresh lemon juice. It
            gives the cheese a tasty lemon flavor too!

            I think I used a half gallon of whole milk and the juice of four
            lemons.

            Easy!!



            --- In Apicius@yahoogroups.com, Correus <correus@...> wrote:
            >
            > SALVETE OMNES!
            >
            > I found the following on another group.
            >
            > << Fresh Roman cheese is really easy to make - we made some
            saturday for a banquet in the evening.
            >
            > Just heat up whole milk to warm & add vinegar to curdle it - it
            doesn't really affect the taste. Then scoop up the solids and drain
            them through cheese cloth or muslin, add chopped herbs or onion of
            any other flavouring and press for a couple of hours to remove the
            last of the liquid.
            >
            > Then it is ready to eat. >>
            >
            > Have any of you done this? Do you know what quantities to us and
            what type of vinegar?
            >
            > VALETE
            > APPIVS·IVLIANVS·CORREVS·APICIVS
            > COLONIA BELLE LOCVS
            > PROVINCIA AMERICA MEDIOCCIDENTALIS SVPERIOR
            >
            >
            >
            > The truth may be boring, and even unpleasant: But it is always
            better than half truths and out right lies.
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • ranvaig@columbus.rr.com
            ... I add a few tablespoons of yogurt with active cultures and let it sit at room temp for an hour or two. Heat it slowly to just barely simmer for 30 mins,
            Message 5 of 30 , Sep 4, 2007
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              >I've done it, but I've had better results with fresh lemon juice. It
              >gives the cheese a tasty lemon flavor too!
              >
              >I think I used a half gallon of whole milk and the juice of four
              >lemons.

              I add a few tablespoons of yogurt with active cultures and let it sit at room temp for an hour or two. Heat it slowly to just barely simmer for 30 mins, then add the acid, a little at a time. Sometimes it will curdle just from the culture. Add just enough acid until the whey to turns clear yellow instead of milky. Don't add any more than necessary. Don't stir much as its curdling, just a gentle swoosh with the skimmer to mix it in, then wait a few minutes before adding more. When its right it will clear quite suddenly.

              For a half a gallon of unhomogenized whole milk or 3 quarts of homogenized whole milk, I use the juice of two lemons, or about 1/4 c. of cider or wine vinegar or bottled lemon juice. This gives about 2 cups of cheese. Lemon makes much better cheese than vinegar.

              If the bottom scorches, dont try to stir it up, or you will have burned bits in the cheese, just take the cheese off the top. When the pot is empty, fill it with water and let soak before you try to wash it.

              For the cheese cloth, any closely woven cotton will do, but make sure to rinse it well before using, you don't want soapy cheese. Let it drain for 30 mins before wrapping in the cloth and weighting it.

              Is there any documentation for Roman cheese made with acid and not with rennet? I would think rennet cheeses were much more likely.

              Ranvaig
            • Correus
              Hmm...what is it about the lemon juice and vinegar that cause the reaction? Correus Aurelia (Laura Sweet) wrote: I ve done it,
              Message 6 of 30 , Sep 4, 2007
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                Hmm...what is it about the lemon juice and vinegar that cause the reaction?

                Correus

                "Aurelia (Laura Sweet)" <aurelia_coritana@...> wrote:

                I've done it, but I've had better results with fresh lemon juice. It
                gives the cheese a tasty lemon flavor too!

                I think I used a half gallon of whole milk and the juice of four
                lemons.

                Easy!!

                --- In Apicius@yahoogroups.com, Correus <correus@...> wrote:
                >
                > SALVETE OMNES!
                >
                > I found the following on another group.
                >
                > << Fresh Roman cheese is really easy to make - we made some
                saturday for a banquet in the evening.
                >
                > Just heat up whole milk to warm & add vinegar to curdle it - it
                doesn't really affect the taste. Then scoop up the solids and drain
                them through cheese cloth or muslin, add chopped herbs or onion of
                any other flavouring and press for a couple of hours to remove the
                last of the liquid.
                >
                > Then it is ready to eat. >>
                >
                > Have any of you done this? Do you know what quantities to us and
                what type of vinegar?
                >
                > VALETE
                > APPIVS·IVLIANVS·CORREVS·APICIVS
                > COLONIA BELLE LOCVS
                > PROVINCIA AMERICA MEDIOCCIDENTALIS SVPERIOR
                >
                >
                >
                > The truth may be boring, and even unpleasant: But it is always
                better than half truths and out right lies.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >






                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Aurelia Rufinia
                The acidity in both makes the milk curdle. It s a method of making quick, soft cheeses. I don t remember what it is in rennet that makes harder cheeses, but
                Message 7 of 30 , Sep 4, 2007
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                  The acidity in both makes the milk curdle. It's a
                  method of making quick, soft cheeses. I don't
                  remember what it is in rennet that makes harder
                  cheeses, but it's the same concept.

                  Rufinia


                  --- Correus <correus@...> wrote:

                  > Hmm...what is it about the lemon juice and vinegar
                  > that cause the reaction?
                  >
                  > Correus
                  >
                  > "Aurelia (Laura Sweet)" <aurelia_coritana@...>
                  > wrote:
                  >
                  > I've done it, but I've had better results with fresh
                  > lemon juice. It
                  > gives the cheese a tasty lemon flavor too!
                  >
                  > I think I used a half gallon of whole milk and the
                  > juice of four
                  > lemons.
                  >
                  > Easy!!
                  >
                  > --- In Apicius@yahoogroups.com, Correus
                  > <correus@...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > SALVETE OMNES!
                  > >
                  > > I found the following on another group.
                  > >
                  > > << Fresh Roman cheese is really easy to make - we
                  > made some
                  > saturday for a banquet in the evening.
                  > >
                  > > Just heat up whole milk to warm & add vinegar to
                  > curdle it - it
                  > doesn't really affect the taste. Then scoop up the
                  > solids and drain
                  > them through cheese cloth or muslin, add chopped
                  > herbs or onion of
                  > any other flavouring and press for a couple of hours
                  > to remove the
                  > last of the liquid.
                  > >
                  > > Then it is ready to eat. >>
                  > >
                  > > Have any of you done this? Do you know what
                  > quantities to us and
                  > what type of vinegar?
                  > >
                  > > VALETE
                  > > APPIVS·IVLIANVS·CORREVS·APICIVS
                  > > COLONIA BELLE LOCVS
                  > > PROVINCIA AMERICA MEDIOCCIDENTALIS SVPERIOR
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > The truth may be boring, and even unpleasant: But
                  > it is always
                  > better than half truths and out right lies.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                  > removed]
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                  > removed]
                  >
                  >


                  Baroness Aurelia Rufinia
                  Barony of Carolingia,
                  East Kingdom, Northshield Ex-Pat

                  "I think we've all arrived at a very special place. Spiritually, ecumenically, grammatically..."



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                • Adam MacDonald
                  Avete! There is an enzyme that causes the curdling reaction. We ve been making cheeses in camp for a decade or so, using various methods. I ve used a small bit
                  Message 8 of 30 , Sep 4, 2007
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                    Avete!

                    There is an enzyme that causes the curdling reaction. We've been making
                    cheeses in camp for a decade or so, using various methods.

                    I've used a small bit of sheep's (or cow) stomach to geed effect - put it in
                    the simmering milk until the reaction starts, then pull it out - I usually
                    pierce the gobbet and run a string through it for easy retrieval.

                    Scithius
                    www.legio-ix-hispana.org
                  • ranvaig@columbus.rr.com
                    ... My understanding is that it needs to be a calf or lamb stomach, some young suckling animal. The enzymes that would let the calf digest the milk, turn it
                    Message 9 of 30 , Sep 4, 2007
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                      >Avete!
                      >
                      >There is an enzyme that causes the curdling reaction. We've been making
                      >cheeses in camp for a decade or so, using various methods.
                      >
                      >I've used a small bit of sheep's (or cow) stomach to geed effect -

                      My understanding is that it needs to be a calf or lamb stomach, some young suckling animal. The enzymes that would let the calf digest the milk, turn it into curds.

                      Ranvaig
                    • Correus
                      I would just about bet the villa rustica it would be from a lamb. My wife and I rehabilitate wild animals that have been injured or abandoned by their
                      Message 10 of 30 , Sep 5, 2007
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                        I would just about bet the villa rustica it would be from a lamb. My wife and I rehabilitate wild animals that have been injured or abandoned by their mothers. The hardest baby animal to raise is the rabbit. Turns out that the vast majority of people have no idea that a baby rabbit is born without the ability to digest it's mother's milk without 'help'. They are missing an enzyme that is found in the droppings of adult rabbits. It needs to mashed up and mixed with the milk formula. When talking to the vet about this he said to skip it and go with goat milk. Goat milk naturally has the enzyme the baby rabbit, as well as squirrels, etc., need.

                        Evidently lamps, and sheep have an excess of the enzyme.

                        Correus

                        ranvaig@... wrote:
                        >Avete!
                        >
                        >There is an enzyme that causes the curdling reaction. We've been making
                        >cheeses in camp for a decade or so, using various methods.
                        >
                        >I've used a small bit of sheep's (or cow) stomach to geed effect -

                        My understanding is that it needs to be a calf or lamb stomach, some young suckling animal. The enzymes that would let the calf digest the milk, turn it into curds.

                        Ranvaig





                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Correus
                        How different would the cheese made from milk & vinegar be from yogurt cheese? Correus ... My understanding is that it needs to be a calf or lamb stomach, some
                        Message 11 of 30 , Sep 5, 2007
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                          How different would the cheese made from milk & vinegar be from yogurt cheese?

                          Correus

                          ranvaig@... wrote:
                          >Avete!
                          >
                          >There is an enzyme that causes the curdling reaction. We've been making
                          >cheeses in camp for a decade or so, using various methods.
                          >
                          >I've used a small bit of sheep's (or cow) stomach to geed effect -

                          My understanding is that it needs to be a calf or lamb stomach, some young suckling animal. The enzymes that would let the calf digest the milk, turn it into curds.

                          Ranvaig





                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Courtois Julien
                          A quick search (in French) told me that curdling in modern cheese is made with part of Calves stomaches (Caillettes de veau in French). But it wasn t always
                          Message 12 of 30 , Sep 5, 2007
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                            A quick search (in French) told me that curdling in modern cheese is made
                            with part of Calves stomaches (Caillettes de veau in French).

                            But it wasn't always so, and in fact calf rennet wasn't mainstream until
                            last century.

                            So for Roman cheese, we might probably want some vegetable rennet.

                            Here the Wikipedia entry on Renet:

                            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rennet

                            Hope that helps

                            Julien


                            On 05/09/07, Correus <correus@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > How different would the cheese made from milk & vinegar be from yogurt
                            > cheese?
                            >
                            > Correus
                            >
                            > ranvaig@... <ranvaig%40columbus.rr.com> wrote:
                            > >Avete!
                            > >
                            > >There is an enzyme that causes the curdling reaction. We've been making
                            > >cheeses in camp for a decade or so, using various methods.
                            > >
                            > >I've used a small bit of sheep's (or cow) stomach to geed effect -
                            >
                            > My understanding is that it needs to be a calf or lamb stomach, some young
                            > suckling animal. The enzymes that would let the calf digest the milk, turn
                            > it into curds.
                            >
                            > Ranvaig
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            >
                            >


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • ranvaig@columbus.rr.com
                            ... I think that might be saying that you could buy processed calf rennet then, instead of having to soak a lamb s stomach and make it yourself. Everything I
                            Message 13 of 30 , Sep 5, 2007
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                              >A quick search (in French) told me that curdling in modern cheese is made
                              >with part of Calves stomaches (Caillettes de veau in French).
                              >
                              >But it wasn't always so, and in fact calf rennet wasn't mainstream until
                              >last century.
                              >
                              >So for Roman cheese, we might probably want some vegetable rennet.
                              >

                              I think that might be saying that you could buy processed calf rennet then, instead of having to soak a lamb's stomach and make it yourself. Everything I have read says that cheese from animal rennet is very ancient, long before Roman times.

                              Ranvaig
                            • ranvaig@columbus.rr.com
                              ... Cheese from milk and vinegar is fairly solid. Like Indian paneer. Or like Feta cheese, but without the salt. You can slice or crumble it. It doesnt
                              Message 14 of 30 , Sep 5, 2007
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                                >How different would the cheese made from milk & vinegar be from yogurt cheese?
                                >
                                Cheese from milk and vinegar is fairly solid. Like Indian paneer. Or like Feta cheese, but without the salt. You can slice or crumble it. It doesnt melt, and can be fried. Yogurt cheese is much softer, you spread it.

                                Ranvaig
                              • Linda Wills
                                this sounds alot like the easy mozzarella cheese recipe that I have. you can also add citric acid powder it make the curdles, Correus
                                Message 15 of 30 , Sep 5, 2007
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                                  this sounds alot like the easy mozzarella cheese recipe that I have. you can also add citric acid powder it make the curdles,
                                  Correus <correus@...> wrote: I would just about bet the villa rustica it would be from a lamb. My wife and I rehabilitate wild animals that have been injured or abandoned by their mothers. The hardest baby animal to raise is the rabbit. Turns out that the vast majority of people have no idea that a baby rabbit is born without the ability to digest it's mother's milk without 'help'. They are missing an enzyme that is found in the droppings of adult rabbits. It needs to mashed up and mixed with the milk formula. When talking to the vet about this he said to skip it and go with goat milk. Goat milk naturally has the enzyme the baby rabbit, as well as squirrels, etc., need.

                                  Evidently lamps, and sheep have an excess of the enzyme.
                                  Corrrus, just how old does the lamp have to be before it strarts making the right enzyme? linda

                                  Correus

                                  ranvaig@... wrote:
                                  >Avete!
                                  >
                                  >There is an enzyme that causes the curdling reaction. We've been making
                                  >cheeses in camp for a decade or so, using various methods.
                                  >
                                  >I've used a small bit of sheep's (or cow) stomach to geed effect -

                                  My understanding is that it needs to be a calf or lamb stomach, some young suckling animal. The enzymes that would let the calf digest the milk, turn it into curds.

                                  Ranvaig

                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Correus
                                  What about taste though? ranvaig@columbus.rr.com wrote: How different would the cheese made from milk & vinegar be from yogurt cheese? ... Cheese
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Sep 5, 2007
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                                    What about taste though?

                                    ranvaig@... wrote: >How different would the cheese made from milk & vinegar be from yogurt cheese?
                                    >
                                    Cheese from milk and vinegar is fairly solid. Like Indian paneer. Or like Feta cheese, but without the salt. You can slice or crumble it. It doesnt melt, and can be fried. Yogurt cheese is much softer, you spread it.

                                    Ranvaig





                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • jdm314@aol.com
                                    I think that might be saying that you could buy processed calf rennet then, instead of having to soak a lamb s stomach and make it yourself. Everything I
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Sep 5, 2007
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                                      I think that might be saying that you could buy processed calf rennet then, instead of having to soak a lamb's stomach and make it yourself. Everything I have read says that cheese from animal rennet is very ancient, long before Roman times.




                                      There's that locus classicus, I think in Pliny, where the different ways to curdle cheese are listed. It includes both vegetable and animal methods. Our own Andrew Dalby in his Food in the Ancient World: A to Z lists as one of the perils of ancient vegetarianism that it would be highly unlikely that one could find out which cheeses used which rennets.

                                      I'm swamped in a paper that must be written at the moment, otherwise I'd track it down and translate it for you all. However, I'm sure there is a translation of it in one of our books. Try Around the Roman Table maybe?

                                      JDM





                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      From: ranvaig@...
                                      To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 10:31 am
                                      Subject: Re: [Apicius] Re: Fresh Roman Cheese

























                                      >A quick search (in French) told me that curdling in modern cheese is made

                                      >with part of Calves stomaches (Caillettes de veau in French).

                                      >

                                      >But it wasn't always so, and in fact calf rennet wasn't mainstream until

                                      >last century.

                                      >

                                      >So for Roman cheese, we might probably want some vegetable rennet.

                                      >



                                      I think that might be saying that you could buy processed calf rennet then, instead of having to soak a lamb's stomach and make it yourself. Everything I have read says that cheese from animal rennet is very ancient, long before Roman times.



                                      Ranvaig



















                                      ________________________________________________________________________
                                      Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com


                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • ranvaig@columbus.rr.com
                                      Both of them are quite bland. Yogurt cheese tastes like unsweetened yogurt. Vinegar cheese is a little sour because of the vinegar, but its not a big
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Sep 5, 2007
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                                        Both of them are quite bland. Yogurt cheese tastes like unsweetened yogurt. Vinegar cheese is a little sour because of the vinegar, but its not a big difference.

                                        >What about taste though?
                                      • Correus
                                        Hey, since we are on this subject.... I have a cheese cloth bad filled with yogurt in the fridge right now. The liquid is straining off okay, however, it has
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Sep 5, 2007
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                                          Hey, since we are on this subject....

                                          I have a cheese cloth bad filled with yogurt in the fridge right now. The liquid is straining off okay, however, it has been in there 24 hours and is not completely finished.

                                          The other times I have done this the weather was cooler and I could leave it in a cool cabinet to strain. With the heat and humidity I'm afraid to do it this time.

                                          How long do you think it will take for it to completely strain in the fridge? Should I try to force the liquid out? When I've left it in a cool cabinet it is done in less than 24 hours.

                                          Correus

                                          ranvaig@... wrote:
                                          Both of them are quite bland. Yogurt cheese tastes like unsweetened yogurt. Vinegar cheese is a little sour because of the vinegar, but its not a big difference.

                                          >What about taste though?





                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Lucia Clark
                                          Columella lists fig milk as a rennet. It is the milky liquid that comes off unripe figs or fig leaves. Lucia ... [Non-text portions of this message have been
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Sep 5, 2007
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                                            Columella lists "fig milk" as a rennet. It is the milky liquid that
                                            comes off unripe figs or fig leaves.
                                            Lucia




                                            At 11:34 AM 9/5/2007, you wrote:

                                            > >How different would the cheese made from milk & vinegar be from
                                            > yogurt cheese?
                                            > >
                                            >Cheese from milk and vinegar is fairly solid. Like Indian paneer. Or
                                            >like Feta cheese, but without the salt. You can slice or crumble it.
                                            >It doesnt melt, and can be fried. Yogurt cheese is much softer, you spread it.
                                            >
                                            >Ranvaig
                                            >



                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • Correus
                                            Interesting....I know it isn t the same thing, but I have some fig vinegar. Correus Lucia Clark wrote: Columella lists fig milk
                                            Message 21 of 30 , Sep 5, 2007
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                                              Interesting....I know it isn't the same thing, but I have some fig vinegar.

                                              Correus

                                              Lucia Clark <luciaclark@...> wrote:
                                              Columella lists "fig milk" as a rennet. It is the milky liquid that
                                              comes off unripe figs or fig leaves.
                                              Lucia

                                              At 11:34 AM 9/5/2007, you wrote:

                                              > >How different would the cheese made from milk & vinegar be from
                                              > yogurt cheese?
                                              > >
                                              >Cheese from milk and vinegar is fairly solid. Like Indian paneer. Or
                                              >like Feta cheese, but without the salt. You can slice or crumble it.
                                              >It doesnt melt, and can be fried. Yogurt cheese is much softer, you spread it.
                                              >
                                              >Ranvaig
                                              >

                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • mz_nite_gardener
                                              The A Taste of Ancient Rome author uses only clean, unbleached untreated Linen instead of cheese cloth when straining fresh cheeses. Cheese cloth has a tight
                                              Message 22 of 30 , Sep 5, 2007
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                                                The "A Taste of Ancient Rome" author uses only clean, unbleached
                                                untreated Linen instead of cheese cloth when straining fresh cheeses.
                                                Cheese cloth has a tight weave, wheras Linen has a looser weave
                                                allowing for quicker straining.

                                                Octavia

                                                --- In Apicius@yahoogroups.com, Correus <correus@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > Hey, since we are on this subject....
                                                >
                                                > I have a cheese cloth bad filled with yogurt in the fridge right
                                                now. The liquid is straining off okay, however, it has been in there
                                                24 hours and is not completely finished.
                                                >
                                                > The other times I have done this the weather was cooler and I
                                                could leave it in a cool cabinet to strain. With the heat and
                                                humidity I'm afraid to do it this time.
                                                >
                                                > How long do you think it will take for it to completely strain in
                                                the fridge? Should I try to force the liquid out? When I've left it
                                                in a cool cabinet it is done in less than 24 hours.
                                                >
                                                > Correus
                                                >
                                                > ranvaig@... wrote:
                                                > Both of them are quite bland. Yogurt cheese tastes like
                                                unsweetened yogurt. Vinegar cheese is a little sour because of the
                                                vinegar, but its not a big difference.
                                                >
                                                > >What about taste though?
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                >
                                              • ranvaig@columbus.rr.com
                                                ... I ve never left it longer than overnight. You could put a weight on it, I wouldn t do that until it was already partially drained. I put a clean bowl on
                                                Message 23 of 30 , Sep 5, 2007
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                                                  >Hey, since we are on this subject....
                                                  >
                                                  > I have a cheese cloth bad filled with yogurt in the fridge right now. The liquid is straining off okay, however, it has been in there 24 hours and is not completely finished.
                                                  >
                                                  I've never left it longer than overnight. You could put a weight on it, I wouldn't do that until it was already partially drained. I put a clean bowl on top, and fill it with water for whatever weight I want. You can start with a little and add more.

                                                  Ranvaig
                                                • J H
                                                  Sorry folks! The author of A Taste of Ancient Rome recommened MUSLIN, not Linen when making fresh cheese. ... [Non-text portions of this message have been
                                                  Message 24 of 30 , Sep 5, 2007
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                                                    Sorry folks! The author of A Taste of Ancient Rome recommened MUSLIN, not
                                                    Linen when making fresh cheese.
                                                    On 9/4/07, Correus <correus@...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > SALVETE OMNES!
                                                    >
                                                    > I found the following on another group.
                                                    >
                                                    > << Fresh Roman cheese is really easy to make - we made some saturday for a
                                                    > banquet in the evening.
                                                    >
                                                    > Just heat up whole milk to warm & add vinegar to curdle it - it doesn't
                                                    > really affect the taste. Then scoop up the solids and drain them through
                                                    > cheese cloth or muslin, add chopped herbs or onion of any other flavouring
                                                    > and press for a couple of hours to remove the last of the liquid.
                                                    >
                                                    > Then it is ready to eat. >>
                                                    >
                                                    > Have any of you done this? Do you know what quantities to us and what
                                                    > type of vinegar?
                                                    >
                                                    > VALETE
                                                    > APPIVS·IVLIANVS·CORREVS·APICIVS
                                                    > COLONIA BELLE LOCVS
                                                    > PROVINCIA AMERICA MEDIOCCIDENTALIS SVPERIOR
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > The truth may be boring, and even unpleasant: But it is always better than
                                                    > half truths and out right lies.
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > Post message: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
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                                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  • Correus
                                                    We have had a cool front move through, so I m going to leave it in a cool spot outside the fridge. Hopefully that will work. ranvaig@columbus.rr.com wrote:
                                                    Message 25 of 30 , Sep 5, 2007
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                                                      We have had a cool front move through, so I'm going to leave it in a cool spot outside the fridge. Hopefully that will work.

                                                      ranvaig@... wrote: >Hey, since we are on this subject....
                                                      >
                                                      > I have a cheese cloth bad filled with yogurt in the fridge right now. The liquid is straining off okay, however, it has been in there 24 hours and is not completely finished.
                                                      >
                                                      I've never left it longer than overnight. You could put a weight on it, I wouldn't do that until it was already partially drained. I put a clean bowl on top, and fill it with water for whatever weight I want. You can start with a little and add more.

                                                      Ranvaig





                                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                    • Samantha
                                                      Salve Omnes, Rennet is the lining of the fourth stomach of suckling, grazing animals. It is rich in the enzyme, rennin, which causes milk to coagulate. Some
                                                      Message 26 of 30 , Sep 5, 2007
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                                                        Salve Omnes,

                                                        Rennet is the lining of the fourth stomach of suckling, grazing
                                                        animals. It is rich in the enzyme, rennin, which causes milk to
                                                        coagulate.

                                                        Some food historians speculate that cheese was initially discovered
                                                        when someone filled a bladder made from one of these organs with milk
                                                        and then went trekking; only to find the contents had clotted during
                                                        the journey.

                                                        In any event rennet, sold under that name, is readily available in
                                                        supermarkets, here in the south. It is also the active ingredient in
                                                        an old-fashioned pudding called Junket.

                                                        As for the cheese cloth, I make my own yogurt cheese and have found
                                                        that a fine mesh sieve lined with a coffee filter does a fine job of
                                                        separating the curds from the whey.

                                                        Samantha


                                                        --- In Apicius@yahoogroups.com, ranvaig@... wrote:
                                                        >
                                                        > >A quick search (in French) told me that curdling in modern cheese
                                                        is made
                                                        > >with part of Calves stomaches (Caillettes de veau in French).
                                                        > >
                                                        > >But it wasn't always so, and in fact calf rennet wasn't mainstream
                                                        until
                                                        > >last century.
                                                        > >
                                                        > >So for Roman cheese, we might probably want some vegetable rennet.
                                                        > >
                                                        >
                                                        > I think that might be saying that you could buy processed calf
                                                        rennet then, instead of having to soak a lamb's stomach and make it
                                                        yourself. Everything I have read says that cheese from animal rennet
                                                        is very ancient, long before Roman times.
                                                        >
                                                        > Ranvaig
                                                        >
                                                      • toast_y_toes
                                                        I ve heard of a tribe somewhere (can t for the life of me think where now) that traditionally hang a sheeps stomach with milk outside the door of their homes,
                                                        Message 27 of 30 , Sep 6, 2007
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                                                          I've heard of a tribe somewhere (can't for the life of me think
                                                          where now) that traditionally hang a sheeps stomach with milk
                                                          outside the door of their homes, and every family member or visitor
                                                          that goes in or out has to stir it as a blessing or welcome, until
                                                          it becomes cheese.....

                                                          a practice that seems to have gone on forever. (for what it's worth)
                                                          lol.



                                                          --- In Apicius@yahoogroups.com, jdm314@... wrote:
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > I think that might be saying that you could buy processed calf
                                                          rennet then, instead of having to soak a lamb's stomach and make it
                                                          yourself. Everything I have read says that cheese from animal
                                                          rennet is very ancient, long before Roman times.
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > There's that locus classicus, I think in Pliny, where the
                                                          different ways to curdle cheese are listed. It includes both
                                                          vegetable and animal methods. Our own Andrew Dalby in his Food in
                                                          the Ancient World: A to Z lists as one of the perils of ancient
                                                          vegetarianism that it would be highly unlikely that one could find
                                                          out which cheeses used which rennets.
                                                          >
                                                          > I'm swamped in a paper that must be written at the moment,
                                                          otherwise I'd track it down and translate it for you all. However,
                                                          I'm sure there is a translation of it in one of our books. Try
                                                          Around the Roman Table maybe?
                                                          >
                                                          > JDM
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > -----Original Message-----
                                                          > From: ranvaig@...
                                                          > To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
                                                          > Sent: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 10:31 am
                                                          > Subject: Re: [Apicius] Re: Fresh Roman Cheese
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > >A quick search (in French) told me that curdling in modern cheese
                                                          is made
                                                          >
                                                          > >with part of Calves stomaches (Caillettes de veau in French).
                                                          >
                                                          > >
                                                          >
                                                          > >But it wasn't always so, and in fact calf rennet wasn't
                                                          mainstream until
                                                          >
                                                          > >last century.
                                                          >
                                                          > >
                                                          >
                                                          > >So for Roman cheese, we might probably want some vegetable rennet.
                                                          >
                                                          > >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > I think that might be saying that you could buy processed calf
                                                          rennet then, instead of having to soak a lamb's stomach and make it
                                                          yourself. Everything I have read says that cheese from animal
                                                          rennet is very ancient, long before Roman times.
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > Ranvaig
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
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                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          _____________________________________________________________________
                                                          ___
                                                          > Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL
                                                          Mail! - http://mail.aol.com
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                          >
                                                        • Lilinah
                                                          ... Do you mean a cloth sold by cheese supply vendors? Because here in the US, cheese cloth sold in supermarkets is extremely loosely woven... and even the
                                                          Message 28 of 30 , Sep 6, 2007
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                                                            >The "A Taste of Ancient Rome" author uses only clean, unbleached
                                                            >untreated Linen instead of cheese cloth when straining fresh cheeses.
                                                            >Cheese cloth has a tight weave, wheras Linen has a looser weave
                                                            >allowing for quicker straining.
                                                            >
                                                            >Octavia

                                                            Do you mean a cloth sold by cheese supply vendors?

                                                            Because here in the US, cheese cloth sold in supermarkets is
                                                            extremely loosely woven... and even the wimpy "handkerchief" linen
                                                            sold in fabric stores is more tightly woven.

                                                            Or are you somewhere not in the US, where cheese cloth is something else?

                                                            Anahita
                                                          • Aurelia (Laura Sweet)
                                                            I m pretty sure it s a matter of preference. Both work equally well, in my experience. Now I just use cheesecloth from the gorcery store. A ... not
                                                            Message 29 of 30 , Sep 6, 2007
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                                                              I'm pretty sure it's a matter of preference. Both work equally well, in
                                                              my experience. Now I just use cheesecloth from the gorcery store.

                                                              A

                                                              --- In Apicius@yahoogroups.com, "J H" <research.cybrarian@...> wrote:
                                                              >
                                                              > Sorry folks! The author of A Taste of Ancient Rome recommened MUSLIN,
                                                              not
                                                              > Linen when making fresh cheese.
                                                            • Samia al-Kaslaania
                                                              That s a Mongolian folk tradition. I don t believe there is evidence of it being practiced in period. And they re making fermented mare s milk in the process.
                                                              Message 30 of 30 , Sep 15, 2007
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                                                                That's a Mongolian folk tradition. I don't believe there is evidence of
                                                                it being practiced in period.

                                                                And they're making fermented mare's milk in the process. :)

                                                                Samia

                                                                toast_y_toes wrote:
                                                                > I've heard of a tribe somewhere (can't for the life of me think
                                                                > where now) that traditionally hang a sheeps stomach with milk
                                                                > outside the door of their homes, and every family member or visitor
                                                                > that goes in or out has to stir it as a blessing or welcome, until
                                                                > it becomes cheese.....
                                                                >
                                                                > a practice that seems to have gone on forever. (for what it's worth)
                                                                > lol.
                                                                >
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