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Ancient Product Branding

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  • Correus
    SALVETE OMNES! For those of you interested in baking mold imprints: http://blog.epromos.com/archives/2006/07/ It s almost half way down the page. VALETE
    Message 1 of 9 , Aug 15, 2007
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      SALVETE OMNES!

      For those of you interested in baking mold imprints:

      http://blog.epromos.com/archives/2006/07/

      It's almost half way down the page.

      VALETE
      CORREVS·APPIVS·IVLIANVS·APICIVS

      The truth may be boring, and even unpleasant: But it is always better than half truths and out right lies ~ Tw Moran








      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Samia al-Kaslaania
      I thought that imprints were used during the rising step, rather than baked into the bottom and flipped. ? Samia
      Message 2 of 9 , Aug 15, 2007
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        I thought that imprints were used during the rising step, rather than
        baked into the bottom and flipped. ?

        Samia

        Correus wrote:
        > SALVETE OMNES!
        >
        > For those of you interested in baking mold imprints:
        >
        > http://blog.epromos.com/archives/2006/07/
        >
        > It's almost half way down the page.
      • Kevin McDermott
        ... Thanks for the link, Correus; good to see some action on the list! The silence following my post about Sally s OFELLAE was deafening. Justin did make them
        Message 3 of 9 , Aug 16, 2007
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          --- In Apicius@yahoogroups.com, Correus <correus@...> wrote:
          > For those of you interested in baking mold imprints:
          > http://blog.epromos.com/archives/2006/07/
          > It's almost half way down the page.

          Thanks for the link, Correus; good to see some action on the list! The silence
          following my post about Sally's OFELLAE was deafening. Justin did make
          them for his CENA ROMANA, and they received very high marks from the
          diners. But I'll leave him to tell that story, if he has the time/inclination.

          The mold--if that is indeed what this is--has been cited before on this list in
          message 3513, which also give this link to a description of the object:
          <http://cil.bbaw.de/pdf/reflections.pdf>

          What's not mentioned is the material of which the original is made; it might be
          metal, but it seems somewhat more likely that it's stone, like all the other
          epigraphic squeezes in the volume. And, if stone, then it becomes more
          difficult to see it as an actual breadstamp--although, of course, this doesn't at
          all rule out the fact that it might REPRODUCE the stamp used on the product,
          and the stone effigy was, if you will, a shopsign reproducing the trademark
          label, i.e., "None genuine without this signature" like the 19C patent bottles
          have it. And, were that to be true, yes: product branding.

          Martial mentions a tuscan cheese from the town of Luni, whose trademark in
          Roman times was.....a crescent moon. (APOPHORETA XIII:30 CASEVS
          LVNENSIS Caseus Etruscae signatus imagine Lunae praestabit pueris
          prandia mille tuis.

          I'd be interested in knowing if anyone out there knows of any other
          documented "trademarks" for food from the Roman world?

          COIVINIX·DERVMODIGIS·F·PISTOR
        • Kevin McDermott
          ... Well, Samia: you ve touched on a vexed subject, and one that we batted around a good bit last autumn. I think you re right: it s unlikely to be the bottom.
          Message 4 of 9 , Aug 16, 2007
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            --- In Apicius@yahoogroups.com, Samia al-Kaslaania <samia@...> wrote:
            > I thought that imprints were used during the rising step, rather than
            > baked into the bottom and flipped. ?

            Well, Samia: you've touched on a vexed subject, and one that we batted
            around a good bit last autumn. I think you're right: it's unlikely to be the
            bottom. But when, and how, such a stamp might be added to the top of a loaf
            and remain undeformed during rising is a good question. I think this particular
            object, for reasons adduced in my earlier email and also below, is unlikely to
            be for table bread. But, regarding stamps such as that seen on the carbonized
            loaves from Pompeii--You'll find some URLs in last autumn's discussions that
            will provide food for thought, if nothing else.

            But that was my point, in fact: a stone "mold" is unlikely to be used for molding
            actual bread, because of the weight involved. When this particular object was
            discussed last autumn, I opined that it might well have been for some
            honeyed treat, more like Roman gingerbread (cf. belgian and dutch wooden
            molds from the 16-19th C of comparable size and detail) than "bread" as we
            normally think of it. This would rise less and be a stiff enough dough to
            release from such a large, detailed, mold.

            VALE
            COIVINIX
          • Kevin McDermott
            ... Well, Samia: you ve touched on a vexed subject, and one that we batted around a good bit last autumn. I think you re right: it s unlikely to be the bottom.
            Message 5 of 9 , Aug 16, 2007
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              --- In Apicius@yahoogroups.com, Samia al-Kaslaania <samia@...> wrote:
              > I thought that imprints were used during the rising step, rather than
              > baked into the bottom and flipped. ?

              Well, Samia: you've touched on a vexed subject, and one that we batted
              around a good bit last autumn. I think you're right: it's unlikely to be the
              bottom. But when, and how, such a stamp might be added to the top of a loaf
              and remain undeformed during rising is a good question. I think this particular
              object, for reasons adduced in my earlier email and also below, is unlikely to
              be for table bread. But, regarding stamps such as that seen on the carbonized
              loaves from Pompeii--You'll find some URLs in last autumn's discussions that
              will provide food for thought, if nothing else.

              But that was my point, in fact: a stone "mold" is unlikely to be used for molding
              actual bread, because of the weight involved. When this particular object was
              discussed last autumn, I opined that it might well have been for some
              honeyed treat, more like Roman gingerbread (cf. belgian and dutch wooden
              molds from the 16-19th C of comparable size and detail) than "bread" as we
              normally think of it. This would rise less and be a stiff enough dough to
              release from such a large, detailed, mold.

              VALE
              COIVINIX
            • Correus
              Has it really been since last Autumn?!?! WOW!!! Time really does fly.... It seems like only a couple months ago. Correus ... Well, Samia: you ve touched on a
              Message 6 of 9 , Aug 16, 2007
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                Has it really been since last Autumn?!?! WOW!!! Time really does fly....

                It seems like only a couple months ago.

                Correus

                Kevin McDermott <pncmcdermott@...> wrote:
                --- In Apicius@yahoogroups.com, Samia al-Kaslaania <samia@...> wrote:
                > I thought that imprints were used during the rising step, rather than
                > baked into the bottom and flipped. ?

                Well, Samia: you've touched on a vexed subject, and one that we batted
                around a good bit last autumn. I think you're right: it's unlikely to be the
                bottom. But when, and how, such a stamp might be added to the top of a loaf
                and remain undeformed during rising is a good question. I think this particular
                object, for reasons adduced in my earlier email and also below, is unlikely to
                be for table bread. But, regarding stamps such as that seen on the carbonized
                loaves from Pompeii--You'll find some URLs in last autumn's discussions that
                will provide food for thought, if nothing else.

                But that was my point, in fact: a stone "mold" is unlikely to be used for molding
                actual bread, because of the weight involved. When this particular object was
                discussed last autumn, I opined that it might well have been for some
                honeyed treat, more like Roman gingerbread (cf. belgian and dutch wooden
                molds from the 16-19th C of comparable size and detail) than "bread" as we
                normally think of it. This would rise less and be a stiff enough dough to
                release from such a large, detailed, mold.

                VALE
                COIVINIX






                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Howard Major,J
                Wasn t Garum actually a brand name for one variety of liquamen that became a generic term (like Coke for soft drinks in general)? Britannicus
                Message 7 of 9 , Jan 1, 2013
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                  Wasn't "Garum" actually a "brand" name for one variety of liquamen that became a "generic" term (like "Coke" for soft drinks in general)?

                  Britannicus

                  --- In Apicius@yahoogroups.com, "Kevin McDermott" <pncmcdermott@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > --- In Apicius@yahoogroups.com, Correus <correus@> wrote:
                  > > For those of you interested in baking mold imprints:
                  > > http://blog.epromos.com/archives/2006/07/
                  > > It's almost half way down the page.
                  >
                  > Thanks for the link, Correus; good to see some action on the list! The silence
                  > following my post about Sally's OFELLAE was deafening. Justin did make
                  > them for his CENA ROMANA, and they received very high marks from the
                  > diners. But I'll leave him to tell that story, if he has the time/inclination.
                  >
                  > The mold--if that is indeed what this is--has been cited before on this list in
                  > message 3513, which also give this link to a description of the object:
                  > <http://cil.bbaw.de/pdf/reflections.pdf>
                  >
                  > What's not mentioned is the material of which the original is made; it might be
                  > metal, but it seems somewhat more likely that it's stone, like all the other
                  > epigraphic squeezes in the volume. And, if stone, then it becomes more
                  > difficult to see it as an actual breadstamp--although, of course, this doesn't at
                  > all rule out the fact that it might REPRODUCE the stamp used on the product,
                  > and the stone effigy was, if you will, a shopsign reproducing the trademark
                  > label, i.e., "None genuine without this signature" like the 19C patent bottles
                  > have it. And, were that to be true, yes: product branding.
                  >
                  > Martial mentions a tuscan cheese from the town of Luni, whose trademark in
                  > Roman times was.....a crescent moon. (APOPHORETA XIII:30 CASEVS
                  > LVNENSIS Caseus Etruscae signatus imagine Lunae praestabit pueris
                  > prandia mille tuis.
                  >
                  > I'd be interested in knowing if anyone out there knows of any other
                  > documented "trademarks" for food from the Roman world?
                  >
                  > COIVINIX�DERVMODIGIS�F�PISTOR
                  >
                • sallygrain@aol.com
                  Hi all My take would be that there was a specific sauce made with v small fish which was originally Greek and was called garon. A fish brine - from salted
                  Message 8 of 9 , Jan 2, 2013
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                    Hi all

                    My take would be that there was a specific sauce made with v small fish which was originally Greek and was called garon. A fish brine - from salted fish - was lighter in colour but similar in flavours when aged but was not another type of garon in Greek but had a separate name halmer, (muria in latin).
                    Then when garon came to Rome it was transliterated into garum but still the same sauce, then other sauces are developed including a blood viscera sauce which is considerd elite and is used at table by the gourmet who out of ignorance of the differeneces between the various types of sauce continue to use garum at table and in their literature while the manufacturer,trader and cook, to distinguish the black bloody sauce from the light brown v small fish sauce coined the new term liquamen from to liquefy so garon = liquamen. The primary product was always garon/liquamen. There is technically no generic term in latin or Greek per se as the manufacturer, cook trader only ever used specific terms while the literatti - who did not understand - used garum or liquamen in the belief that they functioned generically. As the blood viscera sauce eventually became less popular and less visable - it was not sufficiently popular to warrent its own price on Diocletians price edict - the term liquamen became the one most commonly used and therfore appeared to function generically.

                    It is v complex and I do not claim to have it all but the basic - that the Greek and latin terms garon/garum meant different sauces - I would stake my life on!
                    Sally Grainger


                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Howard Major,J <pirusvi@...>
                    To: Apicius <Apicius@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 5:56
                    Subject: [Apicius] Re: Ancient Product Branding





                    Wasn't "Garum" actually a "brand" name for one variety of liquamen that became a "generic" term (like "Coke" for soft drinks in general)?

                    Britannicus

                    --- In Apicius@yahoogroups.com, "Kevin McDermott" <pncmcdermott@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > --- In Apicius@yahoogroups.com, Correus <correus@> wrote:
                    > > For those of you interested in baking mold imprints:
                    > > http://blog.epromos.com/archives/2006/07/
                    > > It's almost half way down the page.
                    >
                    > Thanks for the link, Correus; good to see some action on the list! The silence
                    > following my post about Sally's OFELLAE was deafening. Justin did make
                    > them for his CENA ROMANA, and they received very high marks from the
                    > diners. But I'll leave him to tell that story, if he has the time/inclination.
                    >
                    > The mold--if that is indeed what this is--has been cited before on this list in
                    > message 3513, which also give this link to a description of the object:
                    > <http://cil.bbaw.de/pdf/reflections.pdf>
                    >
                    > What's not mentioned is the material of which the original is made; it might be
                    > metal, but it seems somewhat more likely that it's stone, like all the other
                    > epigraphic squeezes in the volume. And, if stone, then it becomes more
                    > difficult to see it as an actual breadstamp--although, of course, this doesn't at
                    > all rule out the fact that it might REPRODUCE the stamp used on the product,
                    > and the stone effigy was, if you will, a shopsign reproducing the trademark
                    > label, i.e., "None genuine without this signature" like the 19C patent bottles
                    > have it. And, were that to be true, yes: product branding.
                    >
                    > Martial mentions a tuscan cheese from the town of Luni, whose trademark in
                    > Roman times was.....a crescent moon. (APOPHORETA XIII:30 CASEVS
                    > LVNENSIS Caseus Etruscae signatus imagine Lunae praestabit pueris
                    > prandia mille tuis.
                    >
                    > I'd be interested in knowing if anyone out there knows of any other
                    > documented "trademarks" for food from the Roman world?
                    >
                    > COIVINIX�DERVMODIGIS�F�PISTOR
                    >









                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Howard Major,J
                    I yield to your superior knowledge. Have one of your books. Britannicus
                    Message 9 of 9 , Jan 4, 2013
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                      I yield to your superior knowledge. Have one of your books.

                      Britannicus

                      --- In Apicius@yahoogroups.com, sallygrain@... wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > Hi all
                      >
                      > My take would be that there was a specific sauce made with v small fish which was originally Greek and was called garon. A fish brine - from salted fish - was lighter in colour but similar in flavours when aged but was not another type of garon in Greek but had a separate name halmer, (muria in latin).
                      > Then when garon came to Rome it was transliterated into garum but still the same sauce, then other sauces are developed including a blood viscera sauce which is considerd elite and is used at table by the gourmet who out of ignorance of the differeneces between the various types of sauce continue to use garum at table and in their literature while the manufacturer,trader and cook, to distinguish the black bloody sauce from the light brown v small fish sauce coined the new term liquamen from to liquefy so garon = liquamen. The primary product was always garon/liquamen. There is technically no generic term in latin or Greek per se as the manufacturer, cook trader only ever used specific terms while the literatti - who did not understand - used garum or liquamen in the belief that they functioned generically. As the blood viscera sauce eventually became less popular and less visable - it was not sufficiently popular to warrent its own price on Diocletians price edict - the term liquamen became the one most commonly used and therfore appeared to function generically.
                      >
                      > It is v complex and I do not claim to have it all but the basic - that the Greek and latin terms garon/garum meant different sauces - I would stake my life on!
                      > Sally Grainger
                      >
                      >
                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: Howard Major,J
                      > To: Apicius
                      > Sent: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 5:56
                      > Subject: [Apicius] Re: Ancient Product Branding
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Wasn't "Garum" actually a "brand" name for one variety of liquamen that became a "generic" term (like "Coke" for soft drinks in general)?
                      >
                      > Britannicus
                      >
                      > --- In Apicius@yahoogroups.com, "Kevin McDermott" wrote:
                      > >
                      > > --- In Apicius@yahoogroups.com, Correus wrote:
                      > > > For those of you interested in baking mold imprints:
                      > > > http://blog.epromos.com/archives/2006/07/
                      > > > It's almost half way down the page.
                      > >
                      > > Thanks for the link, Correus; good to see some action on the list! The silence
                      > > following my post about Sally's OFELLAE was deafening. Justin did make
                      > > them for his CENA ROMANA, and they received very high marks from the
                      > > diners. But I'll leave him to tell that story, if he has the time/inclination.
                      > >
                      > > The mold--if that is indeed what this is--has been cited before on this list in
                      > > message 3513, which also give this link to a description of the object:
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > What's not mentioned is the material of which the original is made; it might be
                      > > metal, but it seems somewhat more likely that it's stone, like all the other
                      > > epigraphic squeezes in the volume. And, if stone, then it becomes more
                      > > difficult to see it as an actual breadstamp--although, of course, this doesn't at
                      > > all rule out the fact that it might REPRODUCE the stamp used on the product,
                      > > and the stone effigy was, if you will, a shopsign reproducing the trademark
                      > > label, i.e., "None genuine without this signature" like the 19C patent bottles
                      > > have it. And, were that to be true, yes: product branding.
                      > >
                      > > Martial mentions a tuscan cheese from the town of Luni, whose trademark in
                      > > Roman times was.....a crescent moon. (APOPHORETA XIII:30 CASEVS
                      > > LVNENSIS Caseus Etruscae signatus imagine Lunae praestabit pueris
                      > > prandia mille tuis.
                      > >
                      > > I'd be interested in knowing if anyone out there knows of any other
                      > > documented "trademarks" for food from the Roman world?
                      > >
                      > > COIVINIX�DERVMODIGIS�F�PISTOR
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
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