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Re: [Apicius] Measurements and Such

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  • Correus
    LOL All clear! Correus sallygrain@aol.com wrote: Hi re the measurements Sorry guys I do forget about the language barrier You dont ask about a table spoon so
    Message 1 of 12 , Nov 6, 2006
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      LOL All clear!

      Correus

      sallygrain@... wrote:
      Hi

      re the measurements Sorry guys I do forget about the language barrier

      You dont ask about a table spoon so i suppose you know what i mean by that,
      well a desert spoon is the normal eating spoon for pudding soup etc - as
      apposed to the serving/table spoon. What matter of course is not how much you
      use but the ratio of quantities. 2 of that to 1 of this etc. If you want to
      make it in bulk it would be better to measure what ever quantity of spoonfulls
      make up a given volume and then multiply up.

      small coffee cup. Expresso cup is what i mean. Its just so that you get
      sufficient flavoured hydrogarum without having to measure it properly - ratio
      again you see, Its how the Roman cooks did It. They used a cyathum or a
      acetabulum but not always as precise measurements, which would be 45 ml(1 1/2
      floz) and 67 ml( 2 1/2 floz) respectively, but as a 'cup' Yes the Americam
      cups lives!

      Oh come on !! A4 is just the commonplace here for the normal bog standards
      printer size paper for documents

      all clear?

      S

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    • Gabor Bihari
      Dear all, Have you heared about the Seuso Treasure of Pannonia? Here is an article from the New York Times. The owner said, the treasure brought misfortune to
      Message 2 of 12 , Nov 6, 2006
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        Dear all,

        Have you heared about the Seuso Treasure of Pannonia? Here is an
        article from the New York Times. The owner said, the treasure
        brought misfortune to his family...


        14 Roman Treasures, on View and Debated
        The New York Times, October 25, 2006

        For the last week, scores of scholars, museum curators and collectors
        have been discreetly filing into a well-guarded gallery of the
        Bonhams auction house here to admire 14 richly decorated silver
        objects that lay buried for 1,500 years in a forgotten corner of what
        was once the Roman Empire. The excitement is palpable. Only once
        before — for one brief morning in 1990 in New York — has the so-
        called Sevso Treasure been displayed in public. Now the solid silver
        plates, ewers, basins and caskets, thought to be worth more than $187
        million, are again living up to their reputation as one of the finest
        collections of ancient Roman silver ever found. This work and others
        carry intricate designs and detailed reliefs of boar and bear
        hunting, feasting and mythological stories, as well as delicate
        geometric forms. Yet all this beauty carries a blemish. While the
        works are on display at Bonhams with a view to an eventual sale, they
        remain tainted by uncertainty over their provenance and by an
        outstanding claim by Hungary that they were illegally removed from
        its territory. At most, then, this private exhibition — viewing is by
        invitation or special request — is intended as a first step toward
        the treasure's rehabilitation.
      • jdm314
        ... Salve! (BTW, Lucia, there IS a Latin exclamation IO, basically pronounced yo! But that means, more or less, hurray! Of course, unlike our hurray! ,
        Message 3 of 12 , Nov 7, 2006
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          --- In Apicius@yahoogroups.com, Correus <correus@...> wrote:
          >
          > SALVETE OMNES!

          Salve!

          (BTW, Lucia, there IS a Latin exclamation "IO," basically pronounced "yo!" But
          that means, more or less, "hurray!" Of course, unlike our "hurray!", io is chiefly
          shouted at raucous religious festivals, especially the Saturnalia.)


          >
          > What are the equivalent measurements of the following: a 'coffee cup'; a
          'dessert spoon'; and A4 paper?

          Re. Dessert spoon, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dessert_spoon . From
          their description I might have expected it to be equal to a TBS, but actually
          they give it as 10 ml = 2 tsp.

          On UK (or rather non-US) paper sizes, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
          ISO_216 . A4 is 210 mm x 297 mm ? 8.27" x 11.7" -- not that far from our US
          standard of 8.5" x 11"

          vale
        • Lucia Clark
          BTW, Lucia, there IS a Latin exclamation IO, basically pronounced yo! So it could not be the Eu or whatever (my books are back home but I am in Florida for
          Message 4 of 12 , Nov 8, 2006
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            BTW, Lucia, there IS a Latin exclamation "IO," basically pronounced "yo!

            So it could not be the Eu or whatever (my books are back home but I
            am in Florida for a few days) of the Testamentum Asini. My professor
            translated as Oh no!
            But for the Saturnalia YO! is so much in character
            Ciao
            Lucia.




            At 12:54 PM 11/7/2006, you wrote:

            >--- In <mailto:Apicius%40yahoogroups.com>Apicius@yahoogroups.com,
            >Correus <correus@...> wrote:
            > >
            > > SALVETE OMNES!
            >
            >Salve!
            >
            >(BTW, Lucia, there IS a Latin exclamation "IO," basically pronounced
            >"yo!" But
            >that means, more or less, "hurray!" Of course, unlike our "hurray!",
            >io is chiefly
            >shouted at raucous religious festivals, especially the Saturnalia.)
            >
            > >
            > > What are the equivalent measurements of the following: a 'coffee cup'; a
            >'dessert spoon'; and A4 paper?
            >
            >Re. Dessert spoon, see
            ><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dessert_spoon>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dessert_spoon
            >. From
            >their description I might have expected it to be equal to a TBS, but actually
            >they give it as 10 ml = 2 tsp.
            >
            >On UK (or rather non-US) paper sizes, see
            ><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
            >ISO_216 . A4 is 210 mm x 297 mm ? 8.27" x 11.7" -- not that far from our US
            >standard of 8.5" x 11"
            >
            >vale
            >
            >

            ----------



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          • jdm314@aol.com
            ... The oh no one is heu! At the Conventiculum, all the younger participants seem to really enjoy saying Heu, heu! when somethign is wrong. Of course this
            Message 5 of 12 , Nov 8, 2006
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              In a message dated 11/8/06 10:16:00 AM, luciaclark@... writes:


              >
              >
              >
              > BTW, Lucia, there IS a Latin exclamation "IO," basically pronounced "yo!
              >
              > So it could not be the Eu or whatever (my books are back home but I
              > am in Florida for a few days) of the Testamentum Asini. My professor
              > translated as Oh no!
              >
              The "oh no" one is heu! At the Conventiculum, all the younger participants
              seem to really enjoy saying "Heu, heu!" when somethign is wrong. Of course this
              should be pronounced something like "o" with a Cockney accent, but a lot of
              people pronounce it like the name "Hugh" for some reason.

              At first when you said "eu" (which could at least technically be correct,
              since the Romans often dropped aitches) I could only think of euge "hooray!" or
              eugepae "goody gumdrops!" I have never seen those exclamations written any way
              except as one word, but the Greek expressions they are borrowed from are
              written as two and three words respectively--eu ge (pai) "well done indeed, (my
              child)"

              > But for the Saturnalia YO! is so much in character
              >
              Certainly a more cheary way to great people. And more in line with a Roman
              banquet! (There, this post is on topic at last ;) )

              IVSTINVS


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            • Lucia Clark
              OK paido mou (which may not be classical, but in the places in Southern Italy where Griko is used, that s what they say), let s talk about that dinner for 90.
              Message 6 of 12 , Nov 8, 2006
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                OK paido mou (which may not be classical, but in the places in
                Southern Italy where Griko is used, that's what they say), let's talk
                about that dinner for 90. It came as an idea when we were
                brainstorming for new events for our celebrations of Italian
                heritage. An ancient Roman dinner would be fun, and a good fund
                raiser. (It was) You must understand that this dinner was geared
                toward the general public and not academics, but I did not want to
                take shortcuts or compromises. So I chose dishes that had a
                corresponding Italian dish. The Tisana Farrica was the obvious
                precursor of minestrone, the Patina Apiciana of lasagne, tripe in
                besciamella sauce proved to me that the Romans had besciamella, which
                to me was an exciting moment, the lamb rubbed in coriander was a
                funky change from the Italian Lamb with rosmarino, and the cucumber
                with rugola and garum was a variant of a green salad, and
                the savllum the precursor of pastiera. The difference was in the use
                of Roman spices versus Italian spices. The dinner was to take place
                at Filippo's Restaurant in Boston, at the North End, and I was
                assigned two cooks to help me.
                That's when I started my little battle with the cooks.
                Two days before the dinner, we met to make the sauces, the defruta,
                the boiled down juices and honey. Questions: why do we have to use
                honey, let's use sugar. Answer: The Romans did not have sugar. They
                used honey. Reply: So who's to know. My reply: ME!!! To avoid a
                mutiny, I made Garum at home and brought it to the restaurant in a
                nice little jar. I had read (again, my books are in Boxford, MA,
                while I am in Florida) that garum had different versions, and the one
                made from fermented entrails was the generic brand sort of thing,
                while the nice garum was made using small fish. So I felt justified
                in using anchovy paste and boiling it down with grape juice, wine and
                honey. I use sweet Marsala wine or Moscato for vinum passum.
                A day before the dinner, we met to assemble the main dishes. For the
                ingredients of the Tisana, we did compromise by using canned beans
                and cheek peas and lentils, but I used my entire crop of lovage from
                my garden. No more lovage for me until next spring. I found that the
                fenugreek gave the soup a nice kick. As I mentioned in another email,
                to mix the spices I threw the spices in a dish, kept adding until the
                mixture smelled good, and tossed it in the cauldron. I added the
                garum sparingly and kept tasting. Now, for the patina. I had made it
                a few weeks before, using the established method of using either
                crepes or a very thin panem depsticium, but I was not convinced. The
                texture was all wrong. At this point I had found this group, and if
                you remember I tried to find a clear photo of that tomb reliefs in
                Cerveteri with an "alleged" pasta drying rack. Fortunately, Kevin
                came to my rescue with a great paper by Susan Weingarden on tracta
                and boiled lagana. That made so much better sense to me. I was
                convinced that I could boil the lagana. So that morning, I found my
                two cooks with proud smiles: they had fresh commercial lasagna
                sheets! At this point I realized that I had to lead by painful
                example. I asked for flour, whole wheat and unbleached (another
                compromise) oil, water, decided to forego the eggs, and a place to
                work. I mixed the dough and rolled it by hand, all 56 sheets of them,
                and collapsed for a few minutes. The filling was composed of pork and
                chicken, eggs, soft cheese, some flour to keep it together, and
                spices. Apicius mentions fish, but the idea din not appeal to me,
                and, by Jove, I WAS THE COOK! The result was much more plausible, we
                scalded the lagana briefly and baked the patina for an hour or so.
                And it was good.
                My cooks flatly refused to make panem depsticium, so I compromised,
                again, and we had focaccia, which my cooks cut in tiny pieces. I did
                not ask why. The Savillum I made without the tracta, simply because
                it is something I have to work on. The pear patina became stewed
                pears, again because the cooks refused to work on the pudding part of it.
                All in all, all my little battles notwithstanding, it was a good
                dinner (Kevin will add some comments, I think). It was meant for the
                general public, and it introduced the idea of ancient food to lots of
                people. We are thinking to make it an annual event, but not at
                Filippo's! All I need is a couple of enthusiastic helpers. Kevin has
                offered, and with him I would have a real expert! Anybody in the
                Boston area wants to try for next year?
                Salvete
                Lucia



                At 12:49 PM 11/8/2006, you wrote:


                >In a message dated 11/8/06 10:16:00 AM,
                ><mailto:luciaclark%40luciadentice.com>luciaclark@... writes:
                >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > BTW, Lucia, there IS a Latin exclamation "IO," basically pronounced "yo!
                > >
                > > So it could not be the Eu or whatever (my books are back home but I
                > > am in Florida for a few days) of the Testamentum Asini. My professor
                > > translated as Oh no!
                > >
                >The "oh no" one is heu! At the Conventiculum, all the younger participants
                >seem to really enjoy saying "Heu, heu!" when somethign is wrong. Of
                >course this
                >should be pronounced something like "o" with a Cockney accent, but a lot of
                >people pronounce it like the name "Hugh" for some reason.
                >
                >At first when you said "eu" (which could at least technically be correct,
                >since the Romans often dropped aitches) I could only think of euge
                >"hooray!" or
                >eugepae "goody gumdrops!" I have never seen those exclamations
                >written any way
                >except as one word, but the Greek expressions they are borrowed from are
                >written as two and three words respectively--eu ge (pai) "well done
                >indeed, (my
                >child)"
                >
                > > But for the Saturnalia YO! is so much in character
                > >
                >Certainly a more cheary way to great people. And more in line with a Roman
                >banquet! (There, this post is on topic at last ;) )
                >
                >IVSTINVS
                >
                >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Kevin McDermott
                SALVETE ... Well, it WAS a good dinner--and I did make a few comments at the time: The important
                Message 7 of 12 , Nov 8, 2006
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                  SALVETE
                  --- In Apicius@yahoogroups.com, Lucia Clark <luciaclark@...> wrote:
                  >it was a good dinner (Kevin will add some comments, I think).
                  Well, it WAS a good dinner--and I did make a few comments at the time:
                  <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Apicius/message/3471>

                  The important thing--from the front of the house; Lucia had vaguely mentioned
                  "difficulties" with the staff--was that this was really for the HOI POLLOI--they
                  weren't remotely a scholarly crowd. I saw very few dishes that weren't empty
                  at the end of the evening, a good buzz of conversation during it, and (at least
                  from my vantage point) everyone got in the spirit and cut their wines....and,
                  from my perspective, that makes it an EXTREMELY successful event. The fact
                  that the organization wants to do it again is another indication of just how well
                  this event went off, thanks to Lucia's interest, drive, and talent.

                  Regarding the dishes: nothing was too highly spiced or seasoned, but they
                  were both recognizable as Roman cooking and accessible to first-timers.
                  Speaking as someone who ADORES salt, I found them alittle deficient in that
                  regard: but I'm at the FAR end of salaphilia; the TISAMEN FARRICAM I
                  thought could particularly have benefitted by a bit. I thought the LAGANA was
                  wonderful. The tripe in besciamella was...challenging if you don't eat a lot of
                  tripe (like me :>/); the blandness of the sauce didn't do much to improve the
                  attractiveness of the meat. But, as I say: it disappeared.

                  >All I need is a couple of enthusiastic helpers. Kevin has
                  > offered, and with him I would have a real expert! Anybody in the
                  > Boston area wants to try for next year?
                  Well, Lucia is massively overstating the case here...but I will happily claim
                  being a real enthusiast! And I'm looking forward to working with Lucia next
                  year....who wouldn't want the chance to stand in the kitchen with a real Italian
                  grandmother and learn something from her? If there's anybody out there
                  within striking distance of Boston we don't know about....we'd like to meet you!

                  Kevin/COIVINIX
                • Lucia Clark
                  The difference in taste is what makes Roman cooking so cook oriented . I like subtle, mild flavors, and Kevin likes his stuff very robust. Our Savilla are so
                  Message 8 of 12 , Nov 9, 2006
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                    The difference in taste is what makes Roman cooking so "cook
                    oriented". I like subtle, mild flavors, and Kevin likes his stuff
                    very robust. Our Savilla are so different they can hardly be
                    recognized as the same thing. I hope he likes mine because I like
                    his, even if I will continue to make it my way. So every dinner is an
                    unique experience, full of surprises as life itself. But yes, the
                    event went well.
                    And after 4 weeks, my back is recovering from rolling out the lagana.
                    Cheers
                    Lucia



                    At 12:41 AM 11/9/2006, you wrote:

                    >SALVETE
                    >--- In <mailto:Apicius%40yahoogroups.com>Apicius@yahoogroups.com,
                    >Lucia Clark <luciaclark@...> wrote:
                    > >it was a good dinner (Kevin will add some comments, I think).
                    >Well, it WAS a good dinner--and I did make a few comments at the time:
                    ><<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Apicius/message/3471>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Apicius/message/3471>
                    >
                    >The important thing--from the front of the house; Lucia had vaguely mentioned
                    >"difficulties" with the staff--was that this was really for the HOI
                    >POLLOI--they
                    >weren't remotely a scholarly crowd. I saw very few dishes that weren't empty
                    >at the end of the evening, a good buzz of conversation during it,
                    >and (at least
                    >from my vantage point) everyone got in the spirit and cut their wines....and,
                    >from my perspective, that makes it an EXTREMELY successful event. The fact
                    >that the organization wants to do it again is another indication of
                    >just how well
                    >this event went off, thanks to Lucia's interest, drive, and talent.
                    >
                    >Regarding the dishes: nothing was too highly spiced or seasoned, but they
                    >were both recognizable as Roman cooking and accessible to first-timers.
                    >Speaking as someone who ADORES salt, I found them alittle deficient in that
                    >regard: but I'm at the FAR end of salaphilia; the TISAMEN FARRICAM I
                    >thought could particularly have benefitted by a bit. I thought the LAGANA was
                    >wonderful. The tripe in besciamella was...challenging if you don't
                    >eat a lot of
                    >tripe (like me :>/); the blandness of the sauce didn't do much to improve the
                    >attractiveness of the meat. But, as I say: it disappeared.
                    >
                    > >All I need is a couple of enthusiastic helpers. Kevin has
                    > > offered, and with him I would have a real expert! Anybody in the
                    > > Boston area wants to try for next year?
                    >Well, Lucia is massively overstating the case here...but I will happily claim
                    >being a real enthusiast! And I'm looking forward to working with Lucia next
                    >year....who wouldn't want the chance to stand in the kitchen with a
                    >real Italian
                    >grandmother and learn something from her? If there's anybody out there
                    >within striking distance of Boston we don't know about....we'd like
                    >to meet you!
                    >
                    >Kevin/COIVINIX
                    >
                    >



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Kevin McDermott
                    ... This is very true...and (to tell a tale on myself and praise Lucia at the same time)...when she came by for that first PRANDIVM I had made a MORETVM, with
                    Message 9 of 12 , Nov 9, 2006
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                      --- In Apicius@yahoogroups.com, Lucia Clark <luciaclark@...> wrote:
                      > The difference in taste is what makes Roman cooking so "cook
                      > oriented". I like subtle, mild flavors, and Kevin likes his stuff
                      > very robust.
                      This is very true...and (to tell a tale on myself and praise Lucia at the same
                      time)...when she came by for that first PRANDIVM I had made a MORETVM,
                      with a good 20 cloves of garlic in it. It was stern stuff, even for me--and I LIKE
                      garlic. Lucia ate it dutifully and with a smile. It was only later that I
                      discovered...she prefers milder seasoning and doesn't really care for garlic
                      that much. Now, that's a gracious guest!

                      >I hope he likes mine because I like his, even if I will continue to make it my
                      >way.
                      Yes indeed: in point of fact, I've had the pleasure of having two different
                      iterations of Lucia's SAVILLUM, quite different, and both very good.

                      >So every dinner is an unique experience, full of surprises as life itself.
                      This has been an unexpected pleasure, the very kind of surprise Lucia
                      means--of meeting Lucia and having a partner in crime in classical
                      cooking...so many of us, I think, work pretty much in the vacuum of our own
                      experiments. They are (hopefully) very good...and exactly the way WE like
                      them...but one loses the sense of the BREADTH of a living culinary
                      tradition...where every cook has their own particular way with a dish...and we
                      lose it without even being aware of the loss. Being able to be a guest at
                      someone else's table and eat THEIR roman cuisine has been a real
                      eye-opener--I hope all of us are lucky enough at some point to have the
                      chance to experience it.

                      So: thank you, Lucia! You keep doing it your way! And....it will be interesting,
                      after a few years, to see whether our individual preferences/techniques have
                      rubbed off on each other...I wonder what our SAVILLA will look like in 2010?

                      VALETE
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