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Camp cooking

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  • CeltSarah@xxx.xxx
    Hi im new to this list. Im in an ancient reenactment club ( no not the sca, This one JUST does ancients) Anyway im looking for a book or something on cooking
    Message 1 of 24 , Sep 5, 1999
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      Hi im new to this list. Im in an ancient reenactment club ( no not the sca,
      This one JUST does ancients) Anyway im looking for a book or something on
      cooking period food that I can actualy do at the campout events. Any help?

      Sarah

      http://members.aol.com/agamedes
    • terelleterry@xxxxx.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx)
      i know some viking camp resources through capriest@vassar.edu who got her basic recepie from the tassajara bread book. she made unleavened barley buns
      Message 2 of 24 , Sep 5, 1999
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        i know some viking camp resources through capriest@... who got
        her basic recepie from the tassajara bread book. she made unleavened
        barley buns authenticated from organic remains on viking sites. " the
        viking lady " has been very kind to me in providing many types of
        recepies.

        you may not want to do beserker food, but it is quite tasty. i have
        webtv so i can't give you direct links.

        bon appetit
      • Asseri@xxx.xxx
        In a message dated 9/5/99 8:52:49 PM US Eastern Standard Time, terelleterry@webtv.net writes:
        Message 3 of 24 , Sep 5, 1999
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          In a message dated 9/5/99 8:52:49 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
          terelleterry@... writes:

          << you may not want to do beserker food, but it is quite tasty. i have
          webtv so i can't give you direct links.

          bon appetit >>
          OK I am curious could you please type out the address for the Viking food! I
          have baked bread, pies and roasts in a Dutch oven. here is a lot of good food
          that doesn't require a lot of modern equiopemnt
        • terelleterry@xxxxx.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx)
          the viking lady is the reference. there are numerous sites under viking which list foodstuffs and feasts. lots of them are linked together. my web tv does
          Message 4 of 24 , Sep 5, 1999
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            the viking lady is the reference. there are numerous sites under
            viking which list foodstuffs and feasts. lots of them are linked
            together. my web tv does not give me the web address, just the name of
            the site.
          • JSA
            ahem, couldn t you just find these in a typical Medieval Cookery book, of which there are many on the market? L. Licinius Varro Murena ...
            Message 5 of 24 , Sep 5, 1999
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              ahem, couldn't you just find these in a typical
              Medieval Cookery book, of which there are many on the
              market?

              L. Licinius Varro Murena

              --- terelle terry <terelleterry@...> wrote:
              > From: terelleterry@... (terelle terry)
              >
              > the viking lady is the reference. there are
              > numerous sites under
              > viking which list foodstuffs and feasts. lots of
              > them are linked
              > together. my web tv does not give me the web
              > address, just the name of
              > the site.
              >
              >
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            • CeltSarah@xxx.xxx
              In a message dated 9/5/99 8:28:08 PM Mountain Daylight Time, terelleterry@webtv.net writes:
              Message 6 of 24 , Sep 5, 1999
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                In a message dated 9/5/99 8:28:08 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
                terelleterry@... writes:

                << the viking lady is the reference. there are numerous sites under
                viking which list foodstuffs and feasts. lots of them are linked
                together. my web tv does not give me the web address, just the name of
                the site.
                >>

                You can do "the viking lady" as a word search on the internet then. make
                sure you use the "" in case you didnt know. I'll look there, thank you :-)
                Im also looking for anything EARLIER if thats possable, our clubs cut off
                date is 500 AD. Last time we did the fruits and breads of egypt and rome.

                Sarah
              • LrdRas@xxx.xxx
                In a message dated 9/5/99 11:49:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, varromurena@yahoo.com writes:
                Message 7 of 24 , Sep 5, 1999
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                  In a message dated 9/5/99 11:49:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
                  varromurena@... writes:

                  << ahem, couldn't you just find these in a typical
                  Medieval Cookery book, of which there are many on the
                  market?

                  L. Licinius Varro Murena >>

                  No. Medieval cookery as presented through commercial and university presses
                  and as documented in actual surviving period manuscripts can be dated no
                  earlier than the 13th century. This is far outside the Viking period. For the
                  purposes of this list though, Apicius' cookery book gained much favor during
                  the Carolingian period. I also know of at least one untranslated Arabic
                  cookery book that dates to the 10th century.

                  I am curious as to why you think that medieval cookery has anything in common
                  with Viking cookery though.

                  Ras
                • CeltSarah@xxx.xxx
                  In a message dated 9/5/99 10:10:33 PM Mountain Daylight Time, LrdRas@aol.com writes:
                  Message 8 of 24 , Sep 5, 1999
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                    In a message dated 9/5/99 10:10:33 PM Mountain Daylight Time, LrdRas@...
                    writes:

                    << I am curious as to why you think that medieval cookery has anything in
                    common
                    with Viking cookery though.
                    >>
                    Didnt the Vikings cook went they went "viking"? didnt they extend into the
                    Medieval period? Maybe your thinking Medieval means European.

                    maybe not.
                    sarah
                  • Ulrike Grassnick
                    of course, viking cooking is medieval cooking. We do not know much abióut ist because this has not been a widely literate society, wherefor there is no direct
                    Message 9 of 24 , Sep 5, 1999
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                      of course, viking cooking is medieval cooking. We do not know much abi�ut
                      ist because this has not been a widely literate society, wherefor there is
                      no direct evidence of their food. What we know about their cooking habits
                      largely derives from 'fictional' literary sources. The genre of medieval
                      cookbooks had its start and success in the later Middle Ages and the
                      intended reader is clearly upper class, aristocratic or bourgois. I have
                      worked on food and drink in Chaucer's Canterbury Tales and did some
                      research on cooking in the middle ages and cannot remember finding much in
                      regard of the vikings. You may want to check A. Hagen, A handbook on
                      Anglo-Saxon food, 1993.

                      Ulli

                      At 01:10 06.09.99 EDT, you wrote:
                      >From: CeltSarah@...
                      >
                      >In a message dated 9/5/99 10:10:33 PM Mountain Daylight Time, LrdRas@...
                      >writes:
                      >
                      ><< I am curious as to why you think that medieval cookery has anything in
                      >common
                      > with Viking cookery though.
                      > >>
                      > Didnt the Vikings cook went they went "viking"? didnt they extend into the
                      >Medieval period? Maybe your thinking Medieval means European.
                      >
                      >maybe not.
                      >sarah
                      >
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                      >The best antique Roman recipes are at:
                      http://www.dplanet.ch/users/julien.courtois/orgy/index.html
                      >

                      -----------------------------------------------------------------
                      Ulrike Grassnick, M.A.
                      Westf�lische Wilhelms-Universit�t
                      Englisches Seminar
                      Johannisstr. 12-20
                      48143 M�nster
                      Tel: +49 251/83 2 92 77
                      Fax: + 49 251/83 2 56 17
                    • hrjones@xxxxxxxx.xxxxxxxx.xxxx
                      ... From the discussion to date, I m a bit confused as to what culture and period you re asking for help on. Ancient covers so much territory! Are you
                      Message 10 of 24 , Sep 5, 1999
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                        On Sun, 5 Sep 1999 CeltSarah@... wrote:

                        > Hi im new to this list. Im in an ancient reenactment club ( no not the sca,
                        > This one JUST does ancients) Anyway im looking for a book or something on
                        > cooking period food that I can actualy do at the campout events. Any help?

                        From the discussion to date, I'm a bit confused as to what culture and
                        period you're asking for help on. "Ancient" covers so much territory! Are
                        you primarily interested in references on recipes or on cooking methods
                        and equipment?

                        *********************************************************
                        Heather Rose Jones hrjones@...
                        **********************************************************
                      • ChannonM@aol.com
                        In a message dated 9/6/99 12:10:41 AM Eastern Daylight Time, LrdRas@aol.com writes:
                        Message 11 of 24 , Sep 6, 1999
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                          In a message dated 9/6/99 12:10:41 AM Eastern Daylight Time, LrdRas@...
                          writes:

                          << Apicius' cookery book gained much favor during
                          the Carolingian period. I also know of at least one untranslated Arabic
                          cookery book that dates to the 10th century.
                          >>

                          I am working on a class for an SCA session on Roman cooking and it's
                          influence on the middle ages. Would you be so kind as to send me the
                          reference so that I can incorporate this into my information. I would be very
                          greatful.

                          Channon
                        • ChannonM@xxx.xxx
                          In a message dated 9/6/99 1:10:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, CeltSarah@aol.com writes:
                          Message 12 of 24 , Sep 6, 1999
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                            In a message dated 9/6/99 1:10:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, CeltSarah@...
                            writes:

                            << Didnt the Vikings cook went they went "viking"? didnt they extend into the
                            Medieval period? >>

                            Yes they did cook but so far as I am aware the finds or data avail. on early
                            cooking come from digs. There are no written cookbooks to my knowledge (other
                            than an Icelandic Miscellanea, 11C) prior to 6C other than Apicius. The
                            recipes I have put together are based on foodstuffs and archeological items
                            found for example at the Osberg(sp?) Ship burial site and other archeological
                            digs.

                            There is one book in particular that comes to mind when discussing early
                            period foods (British Ilse) and that is Anne C. Wilson Food and Drink in
                            Britain. This is an excellent book with coverage from the early Celtic
                            (Romano-British not Irish) period thru to (if I recall correctly) the 18C. It
                            is not in print but you might be able to find it thru a book search or
                            library loan.

                            I have several early period recipes (Celtic and Viking) that I could offer if
                            you would like to email me personally. I don't wish to clog the Apicius list
                            with non related stuff.

                            I hope this helps.

                            Channon
                          • CeltSarah@xxx.xxx
                            In a message dated 9/6/99 12:32:40 AM Mountain Daylight Time, hrjones@socrates.berkeley.edu writes:
                            Message 13 of 24 , Sep 6, 1999
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                              In a message dated 9/6/99 12:32:40 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
                              hrjones@... writes:

                              << From the discussion to date, I'm a bit confused as to what culture and
                              period you're asking for help on. "Ancient" covers so much territory! Are
                              you primarily interested in references on recipes or on cooking methods
                              and equipment?
                              >>

                              Our club covers everything before 500 AD so yes thats a lot of territory. Id
                              LIKE Egyptian but doubt theres much besides maybe a few bread recipes so Id
                              settle for something else I could make in camp and all the fighters, drummers
                              and dancers would go "OHHHHH" over :-)
                              But Ive gotten a lot of help, I love it, thank you all sooo much

                              Sarah
                              http://members.aol.com/agamedes
                              Imperial Web Site
                            • LrdRas@xxx.xxx
                              In a message dated 9/6/99 10:41:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ChannonM@aol.com writes:
                              Message 14 of 24 , Sep 6, 1999
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                                In a message dated 9/6/99 10:41:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ChannonM@...
                                writes:

                                << << Apicius' cookery book gained much favor during
                                the Carolingian period. I also know of at least one untranslated Arabic
                                cookery book that dates to the 10th century.
                                >>

                                I am working on a class for an SCA session on Roman cooking and it's
                                influence on the middle ages. Would you be so kind as to send me the
                                reference so that I can incorporate this into my information. >>


                                Which references? The one on Apicus or the one on the Arabic cookery book?

                                Ras
                              • JSA
                                ... Probably because simple peasant food is not that different from one place to another within a certain region and within a certain period, given the
                                Message 15 of 24 , Sep 6, 1999
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                                  --- LrdRas@... wrote:
                                  > From: LrdRas@...
                                  >
                                  > In a message dated 9/5/99 11:49:45 PM Eastern
                                  > Daylight Time,
                                  > varromurena@... writes:
                                  >
                                  > << ahem, couldn't you just find these in a typical
                                  > Medieval Cookery book, of which there are many on
                                  > the
                                  > market?
                                  >
                                  > L. Licinius Varro Murena >>
                                  >
                                  > No. Medieval cookery as presented through commercial
                                  > and university presses
                                  > and as documented in actual surviving period
                                  > manuscripts can be dated no
                                  > earlier than the 13th century. This is far outside
                                  > the Viking period. For the
                                  > purposes of this list though, Apicius' cookery book
                                  > gained much favor during
                                  > the Carolingian period. I also know of at least one
                                  > untranslated Arabic
                                  > cookery book that dates to the 10th century.
                                  >
                                  > I am curious as to why you think that medieval
                                  > cookery has anything in common
                                  > with Viking cookery though.
                                  >

                                  Probably because simple "peasant" food is not that
                                  different from one place to another within a certain
                                  region and within a certain period, given the
                                  foodstuffs available, the problem of storage
                                  associated with such foodstuffs, and then-current
                                  culinary tastes. I doubt, for example, that those in
                                  the Danelagh and those in Wessex ate food items and
                                  dishes remarkably different from each other, at least
                                  at the peasant level. Nor, I imagine, would the Danes
                                  in Dublin and the Irish outside it eat remarkably
                                  different food. Now, if we are talking about what the
                                  Norse in Greenland or Iceland ate vs. what the Czechs
                                  or Sorbs or Lombards or Rhomaioi ate, then there may
                                  well be differences due to the foods and fashions
                                  current in those different areas. But even in the
                                  later medieval era is there a remarkable difference
                                  between what the nobility ate--on a regular daily
                                  basis--and what the peasants ate on a regular daily
                                  basis within the same region, except, of course, that
                                  the nobles had more of it. I'm not talking feasts
                                  here, just normal daily meals.

                                  L. Licinius Varro Murena

                                  > Ras
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                                  >
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                                  >

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                                • LrdRas@xxx.xxx
                                  In a message dated 9/6/99 1:57:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, varromurena@yahoo.com writes:
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Sep 6, 1999
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                                    In a message dated 9/6/99 1:57:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
                                    varromurena@... writes:

                                    << I'm not talking feasts
                                    here, just normal daily meals.

                                    L. Licinius Varro Murena >>

                                    OK. Understood. Unfortunately we little or no documentation of what peasants
                                    ate during most periods of history before the 1800's CE. :-(

                                    Ras
                                  • hrjones@xxxxxxxx.xxxxxxxx.xxxx
                                    ... If you cover absolutely everyting before AD 500, and have a particular interest in the Near East, you might want to track down a couple of books I ve
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Sep 6, 1999
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                                      On Mon, 6 Sep 1999 CeltSarah@... wrote:

                                      > hrjones@... writes:
                                      >
                                      > << From the discussion to date, I'm a bit confused as to what culture and
                                      > period you're asking for help on. "Ancient" covers so much territory! Are
                                      > you primarily interested in references on recipes or on cooking methods
                                      > and equipment?
                                      > >>
                                      >
                                      > Our club covers everything before 500 AD so yes thats a lot of territory. Id
                                      > LIKE Egyptian but doubt theres much besides maybe a few bread recipes so Id
                                      > settle for something else I could make in camp and all the fighters, drummers
                                      > and dancers would go "OHHHHH" over :-)

                                      If you cover absolutely everyting before AD 500, and have a particular
                                      interest in the Near East, you might want to track down a couple of books
                                      I've played with on occasion:

                                      Hoffner, Harry A. 1974. Alimenta Hethaeorum: Food Production in Hittite
                                      Asia Minor. American Oriental Society.

                                      Bottero, Jean. 1995. Textes culinaires Mesopotamiens - Mesopotamian
                                      Culinary Texts. Eisenbrauns.

                                      The first (which is entirely in English, despite the Latin title) is
                                      primarily concerned with identifying the nature and meaning of Hittite
                                      food and cooking vocabulary, but a certain amount of practical information
                                      can be dug out of it. The second is variously in English and French and
                                      contains actual step-by-step recipes from ca. 1700 BC in southern
                                      Babylonia.

                                      There are a number of recent books that have mined classical Greek texts
                                      for information on food, cooking, and dining, with varying levels of
                                      practical application. The four currently on my bookshelf are:

                                      Lissarrague, Francois. 1990. The Aesthetics of the Greek Banquet: Images
                                      of Wine and Ritual. Princeton University Press. [more on the social
                                      aspects of dining than food itself]

                                      Wilkins, John & shaun Hill trans. 1994. The Life of Luxury:
                                      Archestratus. Prospect Books. [Commentaries on food and cookery from the
                                      now-fragmentary works of the 4th c. BC poet Archestratus, a Sicilian
                                      Greek. Much of the material works as practical recipes.]

                                      Dalby, Andrew. 1996. Siren Feasts: A History of Food and Gastronomy in
                                      Greece. Routledge. [A great deal of information on the available
                                      ingredients and social aspects of dining.]

                                      Davidson, James. 1997. Courtesans and Fishcakes: The consuming Passions
                                      of Classical Athens. [I haven't had a chance to read through this yet --
                                      it seems mostly focussed on social aspects and is more interested in being
                                      entertaining than informative.]


                                      *********************************************************
                                      Heather Rose Jones hrjones@...
                                      **********************************************************
                                    • ChannonM@xxx.xxx
                                      In a message dated 9/6/99 11:54:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time, LrdRas@aol.com writes:
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Sep 6, 1999
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                                        In a message dated 9/6/99 11:54:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time, LrdRas@...
                                        writes:

                                        << Which references? The one on Apicus or the one on the Arabic cookery book?
                                        >>

                                        I am specifically dealing with Roman influences, however the Arabic cookery
                                        book would be of great interest as well. Is it possibly the one that Cariadoc
                                        of the Bow has used extensively in his Arabic recipe redactions? I know I
                                        have seen the work but can't recall it's title.

                                        I can recall in some of my early reading on quirky medieval goings on that
                                        Roman orgy's were re-created by nobility in extensive manners, but of course
                                        that was several years ago and I'll never remember the source until I run
                                        across it again. What I would like to do is promote Roman cooking in
                                        patronage to a dear friend who maintained a Roman persona, and as such I
                                        would like to demonstrate the importance of Roman cooking on later medieval
                                        food culture whether it be French, English, Italian or otherwise.

                                        I appreciate your help with the references.

                                        Channon
                                      • JSA
                                        ... Sure we do. We know what crops and foodstuffs and spices were available to them. Some of this is found in archaeological digs, others in court records, or
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Sep 6, 1999
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                                          --- LrdRas@... wrote:
                                          > From: LrdRas@...
                                          >
                                          > In a message dated 9/6/99 1:57:52 PM Eastern
                                          > Daylight Time,
                                          > varromurena@... writes:
                                          >
                                          > << I'm not talking feasts
                                          > here, just normal daily meals.
                                          >
                                          > L. Licinius Varro Murena >>
                                          >
                                          > OK. Understood. Unfortunately we little or no
                                          > documentation of what peasants
                                          > ate during most periods of history before the
                                          > 1800's CE. :-(

                                          Sure we do. We know what crops and foodstuffs and
                                          spices were available to them. Some of this is found
                                          in archaeological digs, others in court records, or
                                          literary references. We know a great deal about how
                                          peasants lived before 1800 AD.

                                          L. Licinius Varro Murena
                                          __________________________________________________
                                          Do You Yahoo!?
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                                        • CeltSarah@xxx.xxx
                                          In a message dated 9/6/99 12:45:09 PM Mountain Daylight Time, hrjones@socrates.berkeley.edu writes:
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Sep 6, 1999
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                                            In a message dated 9/6/99 12:45:09 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
                                            hrjones@... writes:

                                            << If you cover absolutely everyting before AD 500, and have a particular
                                            interest in the Near East, you might want to track down a couple of books
                                            I've played with on occasion:
                                            >>

                                            this is great, do you mind if I post it on our antiquitus list as well?

                                            Sarah
                                            http://members.aol.com/agamedes
                                          • LrdRas@xxx.xxx
                                            In a message dated 9/6/99 3:00:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, varromurena@yahoo.com writes:
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Sep 6, 1999
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                                              In a message dated 9/6/99 3:00:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
                                              varromurena@... writes:

                                              << We know a great deal about how
                                              peasants lived before 1800 AD. >>

                                              No disagreement here. I agree that we know a great deal about how they lived.
                                              We know what was grown, etc., but we know little or nothing about what they
                                              ate. That is we have little or no knowledge of how they prepared their food,
                                              e.g., no recipes. The extant body of actual recipes that have survived were
                                              written for the wealthy and the nobility. It does not reflect the style of
                                              food that the common Joe ate.

                                              If you have recipes attributable to peasants before 1800 CE then I would be
                                              happy to see them as I have none in my collection. Recipes before 1450 CE
                                              would be especially welcome.

                                              Ras
                                            • hrjones@xxxxxxxx.xxxxxxxx.xxxx
                                              ... Go ahead -- I neglected to mention that the first two (the Hittite and Mesopotamian books) are in the UC Berkeley library, so those with ILL access may be
                                              Message 22 of 24 , Sep 6, 1999
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                                                On Mon, 6 Sep 1999 CeltSarah@... wrote:

                                                > In a message dated 9/6/99 12:45:09 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
                                                > hrjones@... writes:
                                                >
                                                > << If you cover absolutely everyting before AD 500, and have a particular
                                                > interest in the Near East, you might want to track down a couple of books
                                                > I've played with on occasion:
                                                > >>
                                                >
                                                > this is great, do you mind if I post it on our antiquitus list as well?

                                                Go ahead -- I neglected to mention that the first two (the Hittite and
                                                Mesopotamian books) are in the UC Berkeley library, so those with ILL
                                                access may be able to get them that way, if not another.

                                                *********************************************************
                                                Heather Rose Jones hrjones@...
                                                **********************************************************
                                              • terelleterry@xxxxx.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx)
                                                discovery magazine did a fine article on the intimate relationship between bread and beer. their attempts at reproducing ancient recepies was instructive. or
                                                Message 23 of 24 , Sep 6, 1999
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                                                  discovery magazine did a fine article on the intimate relationship
                                                  between bread and beer. their attempts at reproducing ancient recepies
                                                  was instructive. or was it scientific american?

                                                  according to my information iron cooing vessels and beans were not used
                                                  in northern europe until late 12th century at which time the iron
                                                  deficiencies of the women were eliminated, leading to a surplus of
                                                  women for the first time.

                                                  food and culture are intimately associated.
                                                  also, if you can't grow it trade for it or steal it, you can't eat it.

                                                  have you used spelt and kamut? i have combined them alone and with many
                                                  other flours.

                                                  i suspect the romans would try just about
                                                  anything once. surely in their travels they
                                                  ate local food in their far flung empire.

                                                  the word lox appears to antedate sanskrit, coming from the original
                                                  indoeuropean root language.
                                                • JSA
                                                  ... You may wish to check out: Norman J. G. Pounds, _Hearth & Home: A History of Material Culture_ (Indian UP, 1989), especially pp. 205-210 on cookery and
                                                  Message 24 of 24 , Sep 6, 1999
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                                                    --- terelle terry <terelleterry@...> wrote:
                                                    > From: terelleterry@... (terelle terry)
                                                    >
                                                    > according to my information iron cooking vessels and
                                                    > beans were not used
                                                    > in northern europe until late 12th century at which
                                                    > time the iron
                                                    > deficiencies of the women were eliminated, leading
                                                    > to a surplus of
                                                    > women for the first time.
                                                    >

                                                    You may wish to check out: Norman J. G. Pounds,
                                                    _Hearth & Home: A History of Material Culture_ (Indian
                                                    UP, 1989), especially pp. 205-210 on cookery and
                                                    cooking.

                                                    Also, try the Online Reference Book for Medieval
                                                    Studies (ORB) which has a number of interesting
                                                    articles and sources for the entire medieval period:
                                                    http://orb.rhodes.edu/

                                                    L. Licinius Varro Murena
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