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Re: [Apicius] Cheese in the Roman Empire

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  • Weingarten
    I had a quick look at the Talmudic sources. (The Mishnah was finally redacted in the third century and the Talmudim also contain earlier material) they mention
    Message 1 of 11 , Oct 1, 2006
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      I had a quick look at the Talmudic sources. (The Mishnah was finally redacted in the third century and the Talmudim also contain earlier material) they mention a man who milked animals holev(I get the impression mostly goats rather than sheep but this is only an impression) a man who soured the milk mehabetz and a man who made the cheese megavan. It is not clear if there were really separate people for each activity, or if the rabbis are simply classifying the different stages needed to make cheese. There was a tool used in cheesemaking called a megirah, which one of the dictionaries translates as 'saw.' I am not sure about this. They do talk of cheese which is salty and cheese which is bland-tasting, and the liquid left over after making cheese, which was called qayam. Cheese made by pagans is forbidden because the rennet used may have come from the stomach of an animal which died by itself or an animal which was used in pagan cult. they seem to have actually put the milk in the stomach. They also used used fig sap to curdle milk. Cheese was sometimes kept in cloths. It was not permitted to buy cheese from shepherds in villages (presumably in case they were stealing it from their masters, but it was allowed to buy it in the desert - where they were presumably allowed to use a proportion of the milk. Some cheese (Beit Hinike , which has been interpreted as Bithynian ) was made by experts. (when?)
      But why a cheesemonger? The valley in Jerusalem that is sometimes called Valley of the cheesemongers is Tyropoion in Greek, which actually means cheesemakers...
      Certainly Volker is right to say that post-Bar Kokhba Judaea would have been very poor. Also, there wouldn't be many Jews around there as most of them had been killed off or expelled by the Romans, and the majority of those who were left moved to Galilee.
      fast well

      Susan Weingarten
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Shlomo the Cheesemonger
      To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 7:54 PM
      Subject: [Apicius] Cheese in the Roman Empire


      Avete Omnes,

      I am doing a second impression as a cheese seller. Our setting is mid
      2nd Century, Judea. I want to get an idea what type of cheese this
      sort of character would be peddling.

      Gratis

      Shlomo




      +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
      This Mail Was Scanned By Mail-seCure System
      at the Tel-Aviv University CC.


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Adam MacDonald
      The reenactment group I belong to has been making fresh cheese onsite at our events for about 4 years or so (similar to turkish beyaz panir - or what my
      Message 2 of 11 , Oct 2, 2006
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        The reenactment group I belong to has been making fresh cheese onsite at our
        events for about 4 years or so (similar to turkish beyaz panir - or what my
        grandmother called 'farmer cheese'), and I've been working on some other
        cheeses as well - although those keep getting eaten before they actually
        make it to an event (all in the name of quality assurance testing, I assure
        you...)

        Scithius
        www.legio-ix-hispana.org


        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Volker Bach" <carlton_bach@...>
        > Fresh cheese for consumption within a short period of time was salted and
        > air-dried, and presumably stayed somewhat soft on the inside. Alcock says
        > 'Camembert-like'. Longer-lasting varieties were pickled in brine, vinegar,
        > or
        > must, or smoked. There is no reason to assume these were any softer than
        > modern Pecorino or Padano.
        >
        > Cheeses were seasoned with available herby and spices, and moretum-style
        > concoctions seem to have been fairly universal.
        >
        > Another question I would ask, though, is whether the local economy will
        > bear a
        > cheesemonger. The urban ladscape of post-Bar Kokhba Judaea is not that
        > diverse or affluent, and smaller cities and village communities probably
        > made their own cheese and traded it within localised networks of rural
        > produce rather than have specialised vendors.
        >
        > Vale
        >
        > Volker Bach
        >
        >
        >
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      • Bruno Willinski
        It turns out our scenario will be Brittania so I do not have to worry about the Bar Kochba revolt. I assume white cheddar was the cheese du jour of 2nd
        Message 3 of 11 , Oct 2, 2006
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          It turns out our scenario will be Brittania so I do not have to worry about the Bar Kochba revolt. I assume white cheddar was the cheese du jour of 2nd Century Brittania.



          Adam MacDonald <sasha_khan@...> wrote:
          The reenactment group I belong to has been making fresh cheese onsite at our
          events for about 4 years or so (similar to turkish beyaz panir - or what my
          grandmother called 'farmer cheese'), and I've been working on some other
          cheeses as well - although those keep getting eaten before they actually
          make it to an event (all in the name of quality assurance testing, I assure
          you...)

          Scithius
          www.legio-ix-hispana.org

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Volker Bach" <carlton_bach@...>
          > Fresh cheese for consumption within a short period of time was salted and
          > air-dried, and presumably stayed somewhat soft on the inside. Alcock says
          > 'Camembert-like'. Longer-lasting varieties were pickled in brine, vinegar,
          > or
          > must, or smoked. There is no reason to assume these were any softer than
          > modern Pecorino or Padano.
          >
          > Cheeses were seasoned with available herby and spices, and moretum-style
          > concoctions seem to have been fairly universal.
          >
          > Another question I would ask, though, is whether the local economy will
          > bear a
          > cheesemonger. The urban ladscape of post-Bar Kokhba Judaea is not that
          > diverse or affluent, and smaller cities and village communities probably
          > made their own cheese and traded it within localised networks of rural
          > produce rather than have specialised vendors.
          >
          > Vale
          >
          > Volker Bach
          >
          >
          >
          > __________________________________________________________
          > Telefonate ohne weitere Kosten vom PC zum PC: http://messenger.yahoo.de
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          >
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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Aurelia Rufinia
          The cheddaring process is a rather late development- I ve seen 1500 as the earliest date that cheddar is mentioned. I sincerly doubt that cheddar is the best
          Message 4 of 11 , Oct 2, 2006
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            The cheddaring process is a rather late development-
            I've seen 1500 as the earliest date that cheddar is
            mentioned. I sincerly doubt that cheddar is the best
            choice.

            Rufinia

            --- Bruno Willinski <lordjim92704@...> wrote:

            > It turns out our scenario will be Brittania so I do
            > not have to worry about the Bar Kochba revolt. I
            > assume white cheddar was the cheese du jour of 2nd
            > Century Brittania.
            >
            >
            >
            > Adam MacDonald <sasha_khan@...> wrote:
            > The reenactment group I belong to has been
            > making fresh cheese onsite at our
            > events for about 4 years or so (similar to turkish
            > beyaz panir - or what my
            > grandmother called 'farmer cheese'), and I've been
            > working on some other
            > cheeses as well - although those keep getting eaten
            > before they actually
            > make it to an event (all in the name of quality
            > assurance testing, I assure
            > you...)
            >
            > Scithius
            > www.legio-ix-hispana.org
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: "Volker Bach" <carlton_bach@...>
            > > Fresh cheese for consumption within a short period
            > of time was salted and
            > > air-dried, and presumably stayed somewhat soft on
            > the inside. Alcock says
            > > 'Camembert-like'. Longer-lasting varieties were
            > pickled in brine, vinegar,
            > > or
            > > must, or smoked. There is no reason to assume
            > these were any softer than
            > > modern Pecorino or Padano.
            > >
            > > Cheeses were seasoned with available herby and
            > spices, and moretum-style
            > > concoctions seem to have been fairly universal.
            > >
            > > Another question I would ask, though, is whether
            > the local economy will
            > > bear a
            > > cheesemonger. The urban ladscape of post-Bar
            > Kokhba Judaea is not that
            > > diverse or affluent, and smaller cities and
            > village communities probably
            > > made their own cheese and traded it within
            > localised networks of rural
            > > produce rather than have specialised vendors.
            > >
            > > Vale
            > >
            > > Volker Bach
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            __________________________________________________________
            > > Telefonate ohne weitere Kosten vom PC zum PC:
            > http://messenger.yahoo.de
            > >
            > >
            > > Post message: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
            > > Unsubscribe: Apicius-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > > List owner: Apicius-owner@yahoogroups.com
            > >
            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been
            > removed]
            >
            >


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          • Bruno Willinski
            thanx but we re both wrong http://www.cheddarsomerset.co.uk/History/Cheddar%20Cheese.htm Aurelia Rufinia wrote: The cheddaring
            Message 5 of 11 , Oct 2, 2006
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              thanx but we're both wrong

              http://www.cheddarsomerset.co.uk/History/Cheddar%20Cheese.htm

              Aurelia Rufinia <aureliarufinia@...> wrote:
              The cheddaring process is a rather late development-
              I've seen 1500 as the earliest date that cheddar is
              mentioned. I sincerly doubt that cheddar is the best
              choice.

              Rufinia

              --- Bruno Willinski <lordjim92704@...> wrote:

              > It turns out our scenario will be Brittania so I do
              > not have to worry about the Bar Kochba revolt. I
              > assume white cheddar was the cheese du jour of 2nd
              > Century Brittania.
              >
              >
              >
              > Adam MacDonald <sasha_khan@...> wrote:
              > The reenactment group I belong to has been
              > making fresh cheese onsite at our
              > events for about 4 years or so (similar to turkish
              > beyaz panir - or what my
              > grandmother called 'farmer cheese'), and I've been
              > working on some other
              > cheeses as well - although those keep getting eaten
              > before they actually
              > make it to an event (all in the name of quality
              > assurance testing, I assure
              > you...)
              >
              > Scithius
              > www.legio-ix-hispana.org
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: "Volker Bach" <carlton_bach@...>
              > > Fresh cheese for consumption within a short period
              > of time was salted and
              > > air-dried, and presumably stayed somewhat soft on
              > the inside. Alcock says
              > > 'Camembert-like'. Longer-lasting varieties were
              > pickled in brine, vinegar,
              > > or
              > > must, or smoked. There is no reason to assume
              > these were any softer than
              > > modern Pecorino or Padano.
              > >
              > > Cheeses were seasoned with available herby and
              > spices, and moretum-style
              > > concoctions seem to have been fairly universal.
              > >
              > > Another question I would ask, though, is whether
              > the local economy will
              > > bear a
              > > cheesemonger. The urban ladscape of post-Bar
              > Kokhba Judaea is not that
              > > diverse or affluent, and smaller cities and
              > village communities probably
              > > made their own cheese and traded it within
              > localised networks of rural
              > > produce rather than have specialised vendors.
              > >
              > > Vale
              > >
              > > Volker Bach
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              __________________________________________________________
              > > Telefonate ohne weitere Kosten vom PC zum PC:
              > http://messenger.yahoo.de
              > >
              > >
              > > Post message: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
              > > Unsubscribe: Apicius-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > > List owner: Apicius-owner@yahoogroups.com
              > >
              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been
              > removed]
              >
              >

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              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Adam MacDonald
              Avete, omnes! There is a difference between Cheddar cheese (cheese made _in_ Cheddar) and Cheddared cheese (cheese made using the cheddaring process) - which
              Message 6 of 11 , Oct 2, 2006
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                Avete, omnes!

                There is a difference between Cheddar cheese (cheese made _in_ Cheddar) and
                Cheddared cheese (cheese made using the cheddaring process) - which is what
                is being discussed as a food outside the scope of 2C Britain.

                Scithi

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Bruno Willinski" <lordjim92704@...>
                To: <Apicius@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 7:00 AM
                Subject: Re: [Apicius] Cheese in the Roman Empire


                > thanx but we're both wrong
                >
                > http://www.cheddarsomerset.co.uk/History/Cheddar%20Cheese.htm
                >
                > Aurelia Rufinia <aureliarufinia@...> wrote:
                > The cheddaring process is a rather late development-
                > I've seen 1500 as the earliest date that cheddar is
                > mentioned. I sincerly doubt that cheddar is the best
                > choice.
                >
                > Rufinia
                >
                > --- Bruno Willinski <lordjim92704@...> wrote:
                >
                >> It turns out our scenario will be Brittania so I do
                >> not have to worry about the Bar Kochba revolt. I
                >> assume white cheddar was the cheese du jour of 2nd
                >> Century Brittania.
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >> Adam MacDonald <sasha_khan@...> wrote:
                >> The reenactment group I belong to has been
                >> making fresh cheese onsite at our
                >> events for about 4 years or so (similar to turkish
                >> beyaz panir - or what my
                >> grandmother called 'farmer cheese'), and I've been
                >> working on some other
                >> cheeses as well - although those keep getting eaten
                >> before they actually
                >> make it to an event (all in the name of quality
                >> assurance testing, I assure
                >> you...)
                >>
                >> Scithius
                >> www.legio-ix-hispana.org
                >>
                >> ----- Original Message -----
                >> From: "Volker Bach" <carlton_bach@...>
                >> > Fresh cheese for consumption within a short period
                >> of time was salted and
                >> > air-dried, and presumably stayed somewhat soft on
                >> the inside. Alcock says
                >> > 'Camembert-like'. Longer-lasting varieties were
                >> pickled in brine, vinegar,
                >> > or
                >> > must, or smoked. There is no reason to assume
                >> these were any softer than
                >> > modern Pecorino or Padano.
                >> >
                >> > Cheeses were seasoned with available herby and
                >> spices, and moretum-style
                >> > concoctions seem to have been fairly universal.
                >> >
                >> > Another question I would ask, though, is whether
                >> the local economy will
                >> > bear a
                >> > cheesemonger. The urban ladscape of post-Bar
                >> Kokhba Judaea is not that
                >> > diverse or affluent, and smaller cities and
                >> village communities probably
                >> > made their own cheese and traded it within
                >> localised networks of rural
                >> > produce rather than have specialised vendors.
                >> >
                >> > Vale
                >> >
                >> > Volker Bach
                >> >
                >> >
                >> >
                >> >
                >>
                > __________________________________________________________
                >> > Telefonate ohne weitere Kosten vom PC zum PC:
                >> http://messenger.yahoo.de
                >> >
                >> >
                >> > Post message: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
                >> > Unsubscribe: Apicius-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                >> > List owner: Apicius-owner@yahoogroups.com
                >> >
                >> > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >> >
                >> >
                >> >
                >> >
                >> >
                >> >
                >> >
                >> >
                >> >
                >> >
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >> [Non-text portions of this message have been
                >> removed]
                >>
                >>
                >
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              • Bruno Willinski
                So what type of cheese would have been available to the Roman soldiers stationed in Britain? Adam MacDonald wrote: Avete,
                Message 7 of 11 , Oct 2, 2006
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                  So what type of cheese would have been available to the Roman soldiers stationed in Britain?

                  Adam MacDonald <sasha_khan@...> wrote: Avete, omnes!

                  There is a difference between Cheddar cheese (cheese made _in_ Cheddar) and
                  Cheddared cheese (cheese made using the cheddaring process) - which is what
                  is being discussed as a food outside the scope of 2C Britain.

                  Scithi

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Bruno Willinski" <lordjim92704@...>
                  To: <Apicius@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 7:00 AM
                  Subject: Re: [Apicius] Cheese in the Roman Empire

                  > thanx but we're both wrong
                  >
                  > http://www.cheddarsomerset.co.uk/History/Cheddar%20Cheese.htm
                  >
                  > Aurelia Rufinia <aureliarufinia@...> wrote:
                  > The cheddaring process is a rather late development-
                  > I've seen 1500 as the earliest date that cheddar is
                  > mentioned. I sincerly doubt that cheddar is the best
                  > choice.
                  >
                  > Rufinia
                  >
                  > --- Bruno Willinski <lordjim92704@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >> It turns out our scenario will be Brittania so I do
                  >> not have to worry about the Bar Kochba revolt. I
                  >> assume white cheddar was the cheese du jour of 2nd
                  >> Century Brittania.
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> Adam MacDonald <sasha_khan@...> wrote:
                  >> The reenactment group I belong to has been
                  >> making fresh cheese onsite at our
                  >> events for about 4 years or so (similar to turkish
                  >> beyaz panir - or what my
                  >> grandmother called 'farmer cheese'), and I've been
                  >> working on some other
                  >> cheeses as well - although those keep getting eaten
                  >> before they actually
                  >> make it to an event (all in the name of quality
                  >> assurance testing, I assure
                  >> you...)
                  >>
                  >> Scithius
                  >> www.legio-ix-hispana.org
                  >>
                  >> ----- Original Message -----
                  >> From: "Volker Bach" <carlton_bach@...>
                  >> > Fresh cheese for consumption within a short period
                  >> of time was salted and
                  >> > air-dried, and presumably stayed somewhat soft on
                  >> the inside. Alcock says
                  >> > 'Camembert-like'. Longer-lasting varieties were
                  >> pickled in brine, vinegar,
                  >> > or
                  >> > must, or smoked. There is no reason to assume
                  >> these were any softer than
                  >> > modern Pecorino or Padano.
                  >> >
                  >> > Cheeses were seasoned with available herby and
                  >> spices, and moretum-style
                  >> > concoctions seem to have been fairly universal.
                  >> >
                  >> > Another question I would ask, though, is whether
                  >> the local economy will
                  >> > bear a
                  >> > cheesemonger. The urban ladscape of post-Bar
                  >> Kokhba Judaea is not that
                  >> > diverse or affluent, and smaller cities and
                  >> village communities probably
                  >> > made their own cheese and traded it within
                  >> localised networks of rural
                  >> > produce rather than have specialised vendors.
                  >> >
                  >> > Vale
                  >> >
                  >> > Volker Bach
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >>
                  > __________________________________________________________
                  >> > Telefonate ohne weitere Kosten vom PC zum PC:
                  >> http://messenger.yahoo.de
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> > Post message: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
                  >> > Unsubscribe: Apicius-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >> > List owner: Apicius-owner@yahoogroups.com
                  >> >
                  >> > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> [Non-text portions of this message have been
                  >> removed]
                  >>
                  >>
                  >
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