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Re: pasta?

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  • Ulrike Grassnick
    Well, the Vikings most likeley were the first Europeans to discover America! But I guess, this is not the topic of this discussion-group! Ulrike ... as a ...
    Message 1 of 7 , Jul 6, 1999
      Well, the Vikings most likeley were the first Europeans to discover
      America! But I guess, this is not the topic of this discussion-group!

      Ulrike

      At 17:42 06.07.99 +0200, you wrote:
      >From: Marco Berni <marco.berni@...>
      >
      >You can use arguments to 'prove' the Vikings or even Phoenicians discovered
      >America.....
      >
      >Marco
      >
      >Ulrike Grassnick wrote:
      >
      >> From: Ulrike Grassnick <grassnic@...>
      >>
      >> Hi everybody,
      >>
      >> I am a litte surprised on your discussion regarding Marco Polo and Pasta.
      >> There are actually people in Medieval Studies who (with good arguments, if
      >> I may say so) strongly doubt that Marco Polo actually went to China. His
      >> report is most likely literary fiction, a collection of stories he has
      >> heard in Eastern europe. Even if we all know that Europe knew pasta before
      >> Marco Polo, I would just like to point this out because if Marco Polo has
      >> ever seen Pasta he probably did not see it in China but in Eastern Europe
      >> or even at home.
      >>
      >> Is anybody out there who specializes on medieval cooking?
      >>
      >> Take care,
      >>
      >> Ulrike
      >>
      >> At 12:13 06.07.99 +0100, you wrote:
      >> >From: Gideon Nisbet <nisbet@...>
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >I'm not suggesting that there was no pasta in Italy pre-Marco Polo; as you
      >> >say, clearly there was.
      >> >
      >> >I wouldn't even want to assume that the Italians nicked the idea from
      >> >China at some earlier date; couldn't they have come up with it
      >> >independently? After all, the idea of grinding up grain and bashing it out
      >> >flat is definitely there in Roman cookery, although 'pasta' as such
      >> >wasn't. ... Or does someone out there have evidence that it was?
      >> >
      >> >Tragically modern, really; the Romans failed to invent pasta but succeeded
      >> >in inventing Frazzles. (I don't know how this translates into American
      >> >English, other than 'savoury corn-based snack in shiny non-biodegradable
      >> >packet'.)
      >> >
      >> >-Gideon
      >> >
      >> >Gideon Nisbet, DPhil (Oxon)
      >> >Researcher in Papyrology
      >> >Faculty of Classics, Oxford
      >> >Yamaha XJ600N Diversion
      >> >http://www.csad.ox.ac.uk/POxy/
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >On Mon, 5 Jul 1999, Armand Marechal wrote:
      >> >
      >> >> From: "Armand Marechal" <armand.marechal@...>
      >> >>
      >> >> Also Paczensky and D�nnebiers book mentions, that 1279 (i.e.
      >> >> before Polo returned), the notaris Ugolino Scarpa from Genua
      >> >> made a list of Ponzio Bastone�s estate, consisting among other
      >> >> things of a "bariscella una plena de macaroni", a bag full of maccaroni.
      >> >> The file is to be found at the archive at Genua. Probably noodles
      >> >> indeed did come from China, where noodle-dishes were mentioned
      >> >> during the Han-period (206 bc - 220 ad). But not by Marco Polo,
      >> >> but much earlier noodles and pasta found their way from China to
      >> >> asia minor and Europe.
      >> >>
      >> >> Armand
      >> >>
      >> >>
      >> >> -----Urspr�ngliche Nachricht-----
      >> >> Von: Gideon Nisbet <nisbet@...>
      >> >> An: <Apicius@onelist.com>
      >> >> Gesendet: Freitag, 2. Juli 1999 14:02
      >> >> Betreff: [Apicius] pasta?
      >> >>
      >> >>
      >> >> > From: Gideon Nisbet <nisbet@...>
      >> >> >
      >> >> >
      >> >> > I'm afraid Millioni's argument is neither excellent nor compelling;
      as a
      >> >> > Brit, I could use the same procedure to 'prove' that Druids played
      >> >> > cricket. (Well, they were British, weren't they?)
      >> >> >
      >> >> > Nobody would dispute that laganum was made with flattened sheets of
      >> >> > flour-based stuff, but there's clear indication that it was
      *flavoured*
      >> >> > (with pepper and liquamen) and *fried*. Also that the sheets were
      >> *small*,
      >> >> > more nibbles than staples. I'd guess the tidbit recipes from
      Vinidarius'
      >> >> > excerpts, using small squares of sliced meat, are a culinary relation.
      >> >> >
      >> >> > (This from a quick perusal of P. Lejay's 1911 commentary; can anyone
      >> >> > recommend me anything more recent?)
      >> >> >
      >> >> > Laganum is the Latin form of Gr. laganon, more or less equivalent to
      >> >> > itrion. It's clear that the Greeks think of these as forms of cake
      (see
      >> >> > LSJ entries).
      >> >> >
      >> >> > But there could well be something in the idea of Roman pasta. I'm
      >> inclined
      >> >> > to disbelieve attempts at reconstruction that portray the army's
      ballista
      >> >> > as some form of bolt-throwing device. The roller-and-torsion-arm
      assembly
      >> >> > is clearly better suited to rolling out lasagna for the troops.
      >> >> >
      >> >> > Gideon Nisbet, DPhil (Oxon)
      >> >> > Researcher in Papyrology
      >> >> > Faculty of Classics, Oxford
      >> >> > Yamaha XJ600N Diversion
      >> >> > http://www.csad.ox.ac.uk/POxy/
      >> >> >
      >> >> >
      >> >> > On Thu, 1 Jul 1999, Marco Berni wrote:
      >> >> >
      >> >> > > From: Marco Berni <marco.berni@...>
      >> >> > >
      >> >> > > > >On another matter, the great question of did the Romans have
      Pasta?
      >> >> This
      >> >> > > > >is
      >> >> > > > >addressed fully in an excellent and compelling arguement by
      Stefano
      >> >> > > > >Millioni.
      >> >> > > > >Visit the link available through my Roman food page at:
      >> >> > > > >http://www.ancientsites.com/~Caius_Livius/
      >> >> >
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