Re: Silphium extinct -- back to Parthian garum
> I think it's POSSIBLE they were different species, but I don'tYes, you're right. The problem which would have to be explained, if
> see why all researchers seem to insist on this.
one were arguing that they were the same species, is: how could that
be if the habitats are so widely separated? 'Populations' so far apart
that they can't interbreed would have differentiated eventually. Or
was one of the 'populations' introduced by humans after all? And could
that have anything to do with the fact that (according to Herodotus
4.204) there was a settlement of Barcans (Barca was in the range of
silphium) in Bactria (in the range of asafoetida)? These people had
been more-or-less forcibly settled there by the ancient Persian
government. I think Alice Arndt was the first to point out this very
A. Arndt, 'Silphium' in \Spicing up the palate: proceedings of the
Oxford Symposium on Food and Cookery 1992\ (Totnes: Prospect Books,
1993) pp. 28-35.
> (This is a common problem:Yes, and aoidos is used by some modern writers to mean a singer of
> compare, for instance, how "gladius" is used in English to mean "a
> short two-edged thrusting sword typically used by Roman footsoldiers"
> whereas in Latin it just means "sword." Many people assume that you
> can't call a longsord or a sabre a "gladius" in Latin, which is just
> not true.)
oral epic, while in real early Greek it meant a singer of any kind of
>No offence taken -- assuming you in turn forgive me for mixing my
> > Well, now, jdm314 (and indeed Susan Weingarten),
> I should point out that Andrew is here responding to an email I sent
> him privately, inquiring about the NW Semitic word "tsir" or "tser",
> which he glosses as equivalent to "garum" in his Food in the Ancient
> World, A to Z. I wrote about this word back in
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Apicius/message/1331 . After Susan
> Weingarten replied with her cursory findings in
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Apicius/message/1334 , I just assumed
> that I was wrong and that the word did not in fact mean "garum." So I
> was surprised to see AD make the same equation in his book, and was
> afraid he might have gotten the info for me. In retrospect that seems
> awfully presumptious and insulting, but keep in mind I still thought I
> was wrong, and didn't think anyone else would make the same mistake ;)
reply to your email with my posting to the group? ;)
- Scripsit Andreas Dalby:
> how could thatAn interesting point. I don't think I know enough about biology to
> be if the habitats are so widely separated? 'Populations' so far apart
> that they can't interbreed would have differentiated eventually.
judge how uncommon such a situation would be though.
> was one of the 'populations' introduced by humans after all? And could
> that have anything to do with the fact that (according to Herodotus
> 4.204) there was a settlement of Barcans (Barca was in the range of
> silphium) in Bactria (in the range of asafoetida)? These people had
> been more-or-less forcibly settled there by the ancient Persian
> Yes, and aoidos is used by some modern writers to mean a singer ofyeah, and I believe a lot of the technical names we give to the various
> oral epic, while in real early Greek it meant a singer of any kind of
clay vessels of the ancients rest on very little authority, as far as
the matching of name to item goes. I don't object to this kind of
thing, just so long as we keep it clear in our minds what is an
authentic technical term, and what is a modern usage.
The "gladius" example I gave is paralleled by swords from all around
the world. "Katana" means any sabre in Japanese, "shamshir" means any
sword in Farsi, and so on.
> No offence taken -- assuming you in turn forgive me for mixing myOh, that's no offence at all. I didn't mind your reply being public, I
> reply to your email with my posting to the group? ;)
just wanted to make sure other readers knew what we were talking about.
> A. Arndt, 'Silphium' in \Spicing up the palate: proceedings of theThis book looks really good! (There's a table of contents at
> Oxford Symposium on Food and Cookery 1992\ (Totnes: Prospect Books,
> 1993) pp. 28-35.
http://www.acanthus-books.com/spicuppal.html ) Unfortunately, my
university doesn't own a copy, nor indeed a copy of ANY in this series
except for 2002. There's too many good articles in that one volume to
request xeroxes by inter library loan... so I may need to just request
the whole book and do the xeroxing myself! ;)
But this is just one volume, and there appear to be quite a large
Not to mention Petits Propos Culinaires and other periodicals. Building
up my library of food scholarship isn't goign to be easy ;)
- JDM wrote:
> > I suppose you know that Charles Perry has written on medieval ArabicPart of the point of my rambling post was to make clear that Perry
> > fermented sauces?
has since done a great deal more work on the topic of medieval Arabic
fermented sauces, and that he has changed his point of view on some
of the issues in that earlier publication.