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Re: [Apicius] Re: Recipes

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  • RM
    As I sad before: the recipes of De Re Coquinaria in the 4th cent. edition we know contains a lot of recipes that can easily be prepared by normal people -
    Message 1 of 26 , Oct 1, 2005
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      As I sad before: the recipes of De Re Coquinaria in the 4th cent. edition we
      know contains a lot of recipes that can easily be prepared by "normal"
      people - the recipes for the extremely rich as described by Pliny (see NH,
      8, 209 and 10, 133) were left out. We know that garlic was used especially
      by the poor and rural population (Pliny, NH, 19, 111: "Alium ad multa ruris
      praecipue medicamenta prodesse creditur.") - and Vergils "Moretum" ist a
      very rural food. Anyway, Apicius used garlic only in 2 recipes out of ~500
      (4, 1, 3 & 9, 13, 3). So I wouldn't say that it has been used really often.
      After the second one he wrote: "hoc aegrum stomachum valde reficit et
      digestionem facit".

      Anthimus 6th cent.) wrote about garlic: "Alium bonum est et fleumaticis uel
      qui stomachum frigidum habent, et in uia longa maxime bonus est. Facit etiam
      ad aquas diuersas; qui autem uitiosus renis habent, parcius utantur. Cepae
      humerosae sunt. Ascalonia uero meliora."

      Best regards

      RM

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Aurelia Rufinia" <aureliarufinia@...>
      To: <Apicius@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Friday, September 30, 2005 8:37 PM
      Subject: Re: [Apicius] Re: Recipes


      > True. The Moretum in Virgil has four heads (yes,
      > heads, not cloves) of garlic. When I make it, I use
      > roughly one head (smallish) to a pound of cheese.
      >
      > Aurelia
      >
      > --- Marco Berni <mberni@...> wrote:
      >
      > > What do you mean by 'not that much garlic in ancient
      > > Rome'?
      > >
      > > The romans ate garlic as did the Greeks, read your
      > > Virgil, Homer and
      > > Pliny.
      > >
      > > It was heavily consumed by both Romans and Greeks,
      > > indeed onion and
      > > garlic are the 'smells of the poor' who used it
      > > extensively in food.
      > >
      > > Apicius may not make much use of it, but his cuisine
      > > has nothing to
      > > do with the food of the 'Romans', his is the food of
      > > the elite and as
      > > we were talking of the food of the common people
      > > garlic has its place
      > > as do onions.
      > >
      > > Marco
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > On Sep 30, 2005, at 18:00, RM wrote:
      > >
      > > > Not that much garlic in ancient Rome ... ;-)
      > > >
      > > > Well, we know a bit from Columella et al. what
      > > they cultivated in
      > > > their
      > > > gardens. But I think the recipes found in Apicius
      > > are not only for
      > > > the high
      > > > society - there are a lot of "normal" recipes.
      > > Also Cato tells us a
      > > > bit
      > > > about simple meals.
      > > >
      > > > Best regards
      > > >
      > > > RM
      > > >
      > > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > > From: "Marco Berni" <mberni@...>
      > > > To: <Apicius@yahoogroups.com>
      > > > Sent: Friday, September 30, 2005 8:19 AM
      > > > Subject: Re: [Apicius] Re: Recipes
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > That is common misconception.
      > > >
      > > > For 'Romans' one must differentiate between the
      > > city dwelling capiti
      > > > censi (who indeed lived largely on state and other
      > > handouts,
      > > > depending on the historical time frame) and those
      > > citizens of the
      > > > 'middle' classes who came from the countryside,
      > > both around Latium
      > > > and later around Italia.
      > > >
      > > > These citizens would have had access to a
      > > reasonably varied diet
      > > > based on their own locally grown, farmed (or
      > > fished or caught)
      > > > produce.
      > > >
      > > > Those that lived by the sea would have had a more
      > > fish based diet,
      > > > those inland more fowl and vegetable.
      > > >
      > > > It therefore is possible to recreate foods the
      > > Romans 'might' have
      > > > eaten (I say might as we have no written recipes
      > > to go on, only
      > > > knowledge of what was grown/fished/farmed and the
      > > guidelines
      > > > presented by how much of this same fayre has been
      > > eaten since before
      > > > living memory in the regions concerned.
      > > >
      > > > It is a fairly safe bet that a grilled fish of a
      > > plate of sautéed
      > > > mussels would undergo (broadly) the same
      > > preparation then as now.
      > > > Oil, herbs, garlic and wine..
      > > >
      > > > Marco
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > On Sep 29, 2005, at 22:32, Richard Cook wrote:
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >> The way I understand Roman society the 'average
      > > Roman' would
      > > >> probably be
      > > >> very poor, possibly iving on a subsistance diet -
      > > porridge, pottage
      > > >> etc, or
      > > >> perhaps with some income enabling them to buy
      > > food from a
      > > >> thermapolium etc.
      > > >>
      > > >> High status food was for the rich, exotic meats,
      > > rare spices,
      > > >> delicaces etc.
      > > >> Low status food was for the masses, a fairly
      > > bland diet as I
      > > >> understand it.
      > > >> I'm not sure who would be described as 'middle
      > > class'. Perhaps the
      > > >> Legionary soldier, who earnt a wage and might
      > > have disposable income.
      > > >>
      > > >> gnaeus
      > > >> -----Original Message-----
      > > >> From: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
      > > [mailto:Apicius@yahoogroups.com]On
      > > >> Behalf Of
      > > >> Lucius Servilius
      > > >> Sent: 29 September 2005 06:45
      > > >> To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
      > > >> Subject: [Apicius] Re: Recipes
      > > >>
      > > >>
      > > >> --- In Apicius@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Cook"
      > > <richard_cook@b...>
      > > >> wrote:
      > > >>
      > > >>
      > > >>> What equipment do you have? Basic pots,pans,
      > > firepit.
      > > >>> How many are you feeding? 3
      > > >>> High status or low? If you mean am I upper class
      > > or low class I am
      > > >>>
      > > >>>
      > > >> middle class. I just want average meals for
      > > breakfast - lunch -
      > > >> dinner & a decent dessert. That an average
      > > roman would have ate.
      > > >>
      > > >>
      > > >>>
      > > >>> gnaeus
      > > >>> -----Original Message-----
      > > >>> From: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
      > > [mailto:Apicius@yahoogroups.com]On
      > > >>>
      > > >>>
      > > >> Behalf Of
      > > >>
      > > >>
      > > >>> Lucius Servilius
      > > >>> Sent: 28 September 2005 07:01
      > > >>> To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
      > > >>> Subject: [Apicius] Recipes
      > > >>>
      > > >>>
      > > >>> Salvete Omnes,
      > > >>>
      > > >>> I am looking for a days worth of recipes just
      > > three meals with
      > > >>> dessert. Any assistance would be greatly
      > > appreciated.
      > > >>>
      > > >>> Valete,
      > > >>> Lucius Servilius
      > > >>>
      > > >>>
      > > >>>
      > > >>>
      > > >>>
      > > >>>
      > > >>> Post message: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
      > > >>> Unsubscribe:
      > > Apicius-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      > > >>> List owner: Apicius-owner@yahoogroups.com
      > > >>>
      > > >>>
      > > >>>
      > > >>>
      > > >>> SPONSORED LINKS Ancient history A brief
      > > history of time Ancient
      > > >>>
      > > >>>
      > > >> roman
      > > >>
      > > >>
      > > >>>
      > > >>>
      > > >>>
      > >
      > --------------------------------------------------------------------
      > > >>>
      > > >>>
      > > >> --------
      > > >>
      > > >>
      > > >>> --
      > > >>> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
      > >
      > === message truncated ===
      >
      >
      > Baroness Aurelia Rufinia
      > Barony of Carolingia,
      > East Kingdom, Northshield Ex-Pat
      >
      > "I think we've all arrived at a very special place. Spiritually,
      ecumenically, grammatically..."
      >
      >
      >
      > __________________________________
      > Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
      > http://mail.yahoo.com
      >
      >
      >
      > Post message: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
      > Unsubscribe: Apicius-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      > List owner: Apicius-owner@yahoogroups.com
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
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      >
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      >
    • Martijn Bink
      ... It is good to keep in mind that the Romans may have used fresh garlic, wich is less pungent than the dried variety. Even though the moretum tastes best
      Message 2 of 26 , Oct 2, 2005
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        At 20:37 30-9-2005, you wrote:
        >*This message was transferred with a trial version of CommuniGate(tm) Pro*
        >True. The Moretum in Virgil has four heads (yes,
        >heads, not cloves) of garlic. When I make it, I use
        >roughly one head (smallish) to a pound of cheese.

        It is good to keep in mind that the Romans may have used fresh garlic, wich
        is less pungent than the dried variety. Even though the moretum tastes best
        when made with a moderate amount of garlic.

        Martijn
      • Marco Berni
        Fresh garlic is available in Italy for about 1 month out of the whole year, the rest of the time it is the normal dry-skin stored variety. I hardly think it
        Message 3 of 26 , Oct 2, 2005
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          Fresh garlic is available in Italy for about 1 month out of the whole
          year, the rest of the time it is the normal 'dry-skin' stored variety.

          I hardly think it likely the Romans could have had a way to stretchy
          the availability of 'fresh' or juvenile garlic beyond its natural
          season and highly unlikely they would not have stored garlic and
          onions for the winter months as we do now.

          Having said this moretum made with fresh garlic is far less strong
          than that made with aged and so may have been the preferred time of
          year for making it.

          In these days of refrigeration, glass houses and speedy global trade
          we take for granted availability beyond the seasons, one only has to
          go back a very short time in Italy (15 to 20 years) and see a country
          that was still eating a strictly seasonal diet.

          Marco

          On Oct 2, 2005, at 13:49, Martijn Bink wrote:

          > At 20:37 30-9-2005, you wrote:
          >
          >> *This message was transferred with a trial version of CommuniGate
          >> (tm) Pro*
          >> True. The Moretum in Virgil has four heads (yes,
          >> heads, not cloves) of garlic. When I make it, I use
          >> roughly one head (smallish) to a pound of cheese.
          >>
          >
          > It is good to keep in mind that the Romans may have used fresh
          > garlic, wich
          > is less pungent than the dried variety. Even though the moretum
          > tastes best
          > when made with a moderate amount of garlic.
          >
          > Martijn
          >
          >
          >
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          > Post message: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
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        • jdm314@aol.com
          ... The poem does specify that he gets the garlic from his garden, so of course it s fresh. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          Message 4 of 26 , Oct 2, 2005
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            In a message dated 10/2/05 6:47:24 AM, martijn@... writes:

            > It is good to keep in mind that the Romans may have used fresh garlic, wich
            > is less pungent than the dried variety. Even though the moretum tastes best
            > when made with a moderate amount of garlic.
            >
            The poem does specify that he gets the garlic from his garden, so of course
            it's fresh.


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Correus
            Speaking of garlic. Am I going crazy, or didn t this list discuss a recipe a while back about chicken with 40 cloves of garlic ? I can t seem to find the
            Message 5 of 26 , Oct 2, 2005
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              Speaking of garlic. Am I going crazy, or didn't
              this list discuss a recipe a while back about
              "chicken with 40 cloves of garlic"? I can't seem
              to find the thread. Does anyone remmber this and
              was it also a Roman recipe?

              I ask because I recently found a clay-pot cooker
              recipe called "chicken with 40 cloves of garlic".

              Larry

              --- Martijn Bink <martijn@...> wrote:

              > At 20:37 30-9-2005, you wrote:
              > >*This message was transferred with a trial
              > version of CommuniGate(tm) Pro*
              > >True. The Moretum in Virgil has four heads
              > (yes,
              > >heads, not cloves) of garlic. When I make it,
              > I use
              > >roughly one head (smallish) to a pound of
              > cheese.
              >
              > It is good to keep in mind that the Romans may
              > have used fresh garlic, wich
              > is less pungent than the dried variety. Even
              > though the moretum tastes best
              > when made with a moderate amount of garlic.
              >
              > Martijn
              >
              >




              __________________________________
              Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
              http://mail.yahoo.com
            • Correus
              Have any of you tried roasting the garlic first when making Moretum? Correus ... __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors Choice
              Message 6 of 26 , Nov 3, 2005
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                Have any of you tried roasting the garlic first
                when making Moretum?

                Correus

                --- Aurelia Rufinia <aureliarufinia@...>
                wrote:

                > True. The Moretum in Virgil has four heads
                > (yes,
                > heads, not cloves) of garlic. When I make it,
                > I use
                > roughly one head (smallish) to a pound of
                > cheese.
                >
                > Aurelia
                >
                > --- Marco Berni <mberni@...> wrote:
                >
                > > What do you mean by 'not that much garlic in
                > ancient
                > > Rome'?
                > >
                > > The romans ate garlic as did the Greeks, read
                > your
                > > Virgil, Homer and
                > > Pliny.
                > >
                > > It was heavily consumed by both Romans and
                > Greeks,
                > > indeed onion and
                > > garlic are the 'smells of the poor' who used
                > it
                > > extensively in food.
                > >
                > > Apicius may not make much use of it, but his
                > cuisine
                > > has nothing to
                > > do with the food of the 'Romans', his is the
                > food of
                > > the elite and as
                > > we were talking of the food of the common
                > people
                > > garlic has its place
                > > as do onions.
                > >
                > > Marco
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > On Sep 30, 2005, at 18:00, RM wrote:
                > >
                > > > Not that much garlic in ancient Rome ...
                > ;-)
                > > >
                > > > Well, we know a bit from Columella et al.
                > what
                > > they cultivated in
                > > > their
                > > > gardens. But I think the recipes found in
                > Apicius
                > > are not only for
                > > > the high
                > > > society - there are a lot of "normal"
                > recipes.
                > > Also Cato tells us a
                > > > bit
                > > > about simple meals.
                > > >
                > > > Best regards
                > > >
                > > > RM
                > > >
                > > > ----- Original Message -----
                > > > From: "Marco Berni" <mberni@...>
                > > > To: <Apicius@yahoogroups.com>
                > > > Sent: Friday, September 30, 2005 8:19 AM
                > > > Subject: Re: [Apicius] Re: Recipes
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > That is common misconception.
                > > >
                > > > For 'Romans' one must differentiate between
                > the
                > > city dwelling capiti
                > > > censi (who indeed lived largely on state
                > and other
                > > handouts,
                > > > depending on the historical time frame) and
                > those
                > > citizens of the
                > > > 'middle' classes who came from the
                > countryside,
                > > both around Latium
                > > > and later around Italia.
                > > >
                > > > These citizens would have had access to a
                > > reasonably varied diet
                > > > based on their own locally grown, farmed
                > (or
                > > fished or caught)
                > > > produce.
                > > >
                > > > Those that lived by the sea would have had
                > a more
                > > fish based diet,
                > > > those inland more fowl and vegetable.
                > > >
                > > > It therefore is possible to recreate foods
                > the
                > > Romans 'might' have
                > > > eaten (I say might as we have no written
                > recipes
                > > to go on, only
                > > > knowledge of what was grown/fished/farmed
                > and the
                > > guidelines
                > > > presented by how much of this same fayre
                > has been
                > > eaten since before
                > > > living memory in the regions concerned.
                > > >
                > > > It is a fairly safe bet that a grilled fish
                > of a
                > > plate of sautéed
                > > > mussels would undergo (broadly) the same
                > > preparation then as now.
                > > > Oil, herbs, garlic and wine..
                > > >
                > > > Marco
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > On Sep 29, 2005, at 22:32, Richard Cook
                > wrote:
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >> The way I understand Roman society the
                > 'average
                > > Roman' would
                > > >> probably be
                > > >> very poor, possibly iving on a subsistance
                > diet -
                > > porridge, pottage
                > > >> etc, or
                > > >> perhaps with some income enabling them to
                > buy
                > > food from a
                > > >> thermapolium etc.
                > > >>
                > > >> High status food was for the rich, exotic
                > meats,
                > > rare spices,
                > > >> delicaces etc.
                > > >> Low status food was for the masses, a
                > fairly
                > > bland diet as I
                > > >> understand it.
                > > >> I'm not sure who would be described as
                > 'middle
                > > class'. Perhaps the
                > > >> Legionary soldier, who earnt a wage and
                > might
                > > have disposable income.
                > > >>
                > > >> gnaeus
                > > >> -----Original Message-----
                > > >> From: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
                > > [mailto:Apicius@yahoogroups.com]On
                > > >> Behalf Of
                > > >> Lucius Servilius
                > > >> Sent: 29 September 2005 06:45
                > > >> To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
                > > >> Subject: [Apicius] Re: Recipes
                > > >>
                > > >>
                > > >> --- In Apicius@yahoogroups.com, "Richard
                > Cook"
                > > <richard_cook@b...>
                > > >> wrote:
                > > >>
                > > >>
                > > >>> What equipment do you have? Basic
                > pots,pans,
                > > firepit.
                > > >>> How many are you feeding? 3
                > > >>> High status or low? If you mean am I
                > upper class
                > > or low class I am
                > > >>>
                > > >>>
                > > >> middle class. I just want average meals
                > for
                > > breakfast - lunch -
                > > >> dinner & a decent dessert. That an
                > average
                > > roman would have ate.
                > > >>
                > > >>
                > > >>>
                > > >>> gnaeus
                > > >>> -----Original Message-----
                > > >>> From: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
                > > [mailto:Apicius@yahoogroups.com]On
                > > >>>
                > > >>>
                > > >> Behalf Of
                > > >>
                > > >>
                > > >>> Lucius Servilius
                > > >>> Sent: 28 September 2005 07:01
                > > >>> To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
                > > >>> Subject: [Apicius] Recipes
                > > >>>
                > > >>>
                > > >>> Salvete Omnes,
                > > >>>
                > > >>> I am looking for a days worth of
                > recipes just
                > > three meals with
                > > >>> dessert. Any assistance would be
                > greatly
                > > appreciated.
                > > >>>
                > > >>> Valete,
                > > >>> Lucius Servilius
                > > >>>
                > > >>>
                > > >>>
                > > >>>
                > > >>>
                > > >>>
                > > >>> Post message: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
                > > >>> Unsubscribe:
                > > Apicius-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > > >>> List owner:
                > Apicius-owner@yahoogroups.com
                > > >>>
                > > >>>
                > > >>>
                > > >>>
                > > >>> SPONSORED LINKS Ancient history A
                > brief
                > > history of time Ancient
                > > >>>
                > > >>>
                > > >> roman
                > > >>
                > > >>
                > > >>>
                > > >>>
                > > >>>
                > >
                >
                --------------------------------------------------------------------
                > > >>>
                > > >>>
                > > >> --------
                > > >>
                > > >>
                > > >>> --
                > > >>> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                > >
                > === message truncated ===
                >
                >
                > Baroness Aurelia Rufinia
                > Barony of Carolingia,
                > East Kingdom, Northshield Ex-Pat
                >
                > "I think we've all arrived at a very special
                > place. Spiritually, ecumenically,
                > grammatically..."
                >
                >
                >
                > __________________________________
                > Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
                > http://mail.yahoo.com
                >





                __________________________________
                Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
                http://mail.yahoo.com
              • Cathy Kaufman
                Roasting the garlic would certainly mellow the flavor, but there doesn t seem to be any textual support for that treatment. The Virgil moretum clearly uses
                Message 7 of 26 , Nov 3, 2005
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                  Roasting the garlic would certainly mellow the flavor, but there doesn't seem to be any textual support for that treatment. The "Virgil" moretum clearly uses either raw or barely-blanched garlic, because the fumes sting Similus's eyes as he is pounding away.

                  Cathy
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Correus
                  To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 9:45 AM
                  Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] Re: [Apicius] Re: Recipes


                  Have any of you tried roasting the garlic first
                  when making Moretum?

                  Correus

                  --- Aurelia Rufinia <aureliarufinia@...>
                  wrote:

                  > True. The Moretum in Virgil has four heads
                  > (yes,
                  > heads, not cloves) of garlic. When I make it,
                  > I use
                  > roughly one head (smallish) to a pound of
                  > cheese.
                  >
                  > Aurelia
                  >
                  > --- Marco Berni <mberni@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > What do you mean by 'not that much garlic in
                  > ancient
                  > > Rome'?
                  > >
                  > > The romans ate garlic as did the Greeks, read
                  > your
                  > > Virgil, Homer and
                  > > Pliny.
                  > >
                  > > It was heavily consumed by both Romans and
                  > Greeks,
                  > > indeed onion and
                  > > garlic are the 'smells of the poor' who used
                  > it
                  > > extensively in food.
                  > >
                  > > Apicius may not make much use of it, but his
                  > cuisine
                  > > has nothing to
                  > > do with the food of the 'Romans', his is the
                  > food of
                  > > the elite and as
                  > > we were talking of the food of the common
                  > people
                  > > garlic has its place
                  > > as do onions.
                  > >
                  > > Marco
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > On Sep 30, 2005, at 18:00, RM wrote:
                  > >
                  > > > Not that much garlic in ancient Rome ...
                  > ;-)
                  > > >
                  > > > Well, we know a bit from Columella et al.
                  > what
                  > > they cultivated in
                  > > > their
                  > > > gardens. But I think the recipes found in
                  > Apicius
                  > > are not only for
                  > > > the high
                  > > > society - there are a lot of "normal"
                  > recipes.
                  > > Also Cato tells us a
                  > > > bit
                  > > > about simple meals.
                  > > >
                  > > > Best regards
                  > > >
                  > > > RM
                  > > >
                  > > > ----- Original Message -----
                  > > > From: "Marco Berni" <mberni@...>
                  > > > To: <Apicius@yahoogroups.com>
                  > > > Sent: Friday, September 30, 2005 8:19 AM
                  > > > Subject: Re: [Apicius] Re: Recipes
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > That is common misconception.
                  > > >
                  > > > For 'Romans' one must differentiate between
                  > the
                  > > city dwelling capiti
                  > > > censi (who indeed lived largely on state
                  > and other
                  > > handouts,
                  > > > depending on the historical time frame) and
                  > those
                  > > citizens of the
                  > > > 'middle' classes who came from the
                  > countryside,
                  > > both around Latium
                  > > > and later around Italia.
                  > > >
                  > > > These citizens would have had access to a
                  > > reasonably varied diet
                  > > > based on their own locally grown, farmed
                  > (or
                  > > fished or caught)
                  > > > produce.
                  > > >
                  > > > Those that lived by the sea would have had
                  > a more
                  > > fish based diet,
                  > > > those inland more fowl and vegetable.
                  > > >
                  > > > It therefore is possible to recreate foods
                  > the
                  > > Romans 'might' have
                  > > > eaten (I say might as we have no written
                  > recipes
                  > > to go on, only
                  > > > knowledge of what was grown/fished/farmed
                  > and the
                  > > guidelines
                  > > > presented by how much of this same fayre
                  > has been
                  > > eaten since before
                  > > > living memory in the regions concerned.
                  > > >
                  > > > It is a fairly safe bet that a grilled fish
                  > of a
                  > > plate of sautéed
                  > > > mussels would undergo (broadly) the same
                  > > preparation then as now.
                  > > > Oil, herbs, garlic and wine..
                  > > >
                  > > > Marco
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > On Sep 29, 2005, at 22:32, Richard Cook
                  > wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >> The way I understand Roman society the
                  > 'average
                  > > Roman' would
                  > > >> probably be
                  > > >> very poor, possibly iving on a subsistance
                  > diet -
                  > > porridge, pottage
                  > > >> etc, or
                  > > >> perhaps with some income enabling them to
                  > buy
                  > > food from a
                  > > >> thermapolium etc.
                  > > >>
                  > > >> High status food was for the rich, exotic
                  > meats,
                  > > rare spices,
                  > > >> delicaces etc.
                  > > >> Low status food was for the masses, a
                  > fairly
                  > > bland diet as I
                  > > >> understand it.
                  > > >> I'm not sure who would be described as
                  > 'middle
                  > > class'. Perhaps the
                  > > >> Legionary soldier, who earnt a wage and
                  > might
                  > > have disposable income.
                  > > >>
                  > > >> gnaeus
                  > > >> -----Original Message-----
                  > > >> From: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
                  > > [mailto:Apicius@yahoogroups.com]On
                  > > >> Behalf Of
                  > > >> Lucius Servilius
                  > > >> Sent: 29 September 2005 06:45
                  > > >> To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
                  > > >> Subject: [Apicius] Re: Recipes
                  > > >>
                  > > >>
                  > > >> --- In Apicius@yahoogroups.com, "Richard
                  > Cook"
                  > > <richard_cook@b...>
                  > > >> wrote:
                  > > >>
                  > > >>
                  > > >>> What equipment do you have? Basic
                  > pots,pans,
                  > > firepit.
                  > > >>> How many are you feeding? 3
                  > > >>> High status or low? If you mean am I
                  > upper class
                  > > or low class I am
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >> middle class. I just want average meals
                  > for
                  > > breakfast - lunch -
                  > > >> dinner & a decent dessert. That an
                  > average
                  > > roman would have ate.
                  > > >>
                  > > >>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>> gnaeus
                  > > >>> -----Original Message-----
                  > > >>> From: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
                  > > [mailto:Apicius@yahoogroups.com]On
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >> Behalf Of
                  > > >>
                  > > >>
                  > > >>> Lucius Servilius
                  > > >>> Sent: 28 September 2005 07:01
                  > > >>> To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
                  > > >>> Subject: [Apicius] Recipes
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>> Salvete Omnes,
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>> I am looking for a days worth of
                  > recipes just
                  > > three meals with
                  > > >>> dessert. Any assistance would be
                  > greatly
                  > > appreciated.
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>> Valete,
                  > > >>> Lucius Servilius
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>> Post message: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
                  > > >>> Unsubscribe:
                  > > Apicius-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > > >>> List owner:
                  > Apicius-owner@yahoogroups.com
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>> SPONSORED LINKS Ancient history A
                  > brief
                  > > history of time Ancient
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >> roman
                  > > >>
                  > > >>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > >
                  >
                  --------------------------------------------------------------------
                  > > >>>
                  > > >>>
                  > > >> --------
                  > > >>
                  > > >>
                  > > >>> --
                  > > >>> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                  > >
                  > === message truncated ===
                  >
                  >
                  > Baroness Aurelia Rufinia
                  > Barony of Carolingia,
                  > East Kingdom, Northshield Ex-Pat
                  >
                  > "I think we've all arrived at a very special
                  > place. Spiritually, ecumenically,
                  > grammatically..."
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > __________________________________
                  > Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
                  > http://mail.yahoo.com
                  >





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                • Correus
                  Just thought it would add a nice flavor. Correus ... __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com
                  Message 8 of 26 , Nov 4, 2005
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Just thought it would add a nice flavor.

                    Correus

                    --- Cathy Kaufman <cathykkaufman@...>
                    wrote:

                    > Roasting the garlic would certainly mellow the
                    > flavor, but there doesn't seem to be any
                    > textual support for that treatment. The
                    > "Virgil" moretum clearly uses either raw or
                    > barely-blanched garlic, because the fumes sting
                    > Similus's eyes as he is pounding away.
                    >
                    > Cathy
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: Correus
                    > To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 9:45 AM
                    > Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] Re: [Apicius] Re:
                    > Recipes
                    >
                    >
                    > Have any of you tried roasting the garlic
                    > first
                    > when making Moretum?
                    >
                    > Correus
                    >
                    > --- Aurelia Rufinia
                    > <aureliarufinia@...>
                    > wrote:
                    >
                    > > True. The Moretum in Virgil has four heads
                    > > (yes,
                    > > heads, not cloves) of garlic. When I make
                    > it,
                    > > I use
                    > > roughly one head (smallish) to a pound of
                    > > cheese.
                    > >
                    > > Aurelia
                    > >
                    > > --- Marco Berni <mberni@...>
                    > wrote:
                    > >
                    > > > What do you mean by 'not that much garlic
                    > in
                    > > ancient
                    > > > Rome'?
                    > > >
                    > > > The romans ate garlic as did the Greeks,
                    > read
                    > > your
                    > > > Virgil, Homer and
                    > > > Pliny.
                    > > >
                    > > > It was heavily consumed by both Romans
                    > and
                    > > Greeks,
                    > > > indeed onion and
                    > > > garlic are the 'smells of the poor' who
                    > used
                    > > it
                    > > > extensively in food.
                    > > >
                    > > > Apicius may not make much use of it, but
                    > his
                    > > cuisine
                    > > > has nothing to
                    > > > do with the food of the 'Romans', his is
                    > the
                    > > food of
                    > > > the elite and as
                    > > > we were talking of the food of the common
                    > > people
                    > > > garlic has its place
                    > > > as do onions.
                    > > >
                    > > > Marco
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > On Sep 30, 2005, at 18:00, RM wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > > Not that much garlic in ancient Rome
                    > ...
                    > > ;-)
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Well, we know a bit from Columella et
                    > al.
                    > > what
                    > > > they cultivated in
                    > > > > their
                    > > > > gardens. But I think the recipes found
                    > in
                    > > Apicius
                    > > > are not only for
                    > > > > the high
                    > > > > society - there are a lot of "normal"
                    > > recipes.
                    > > > Also Cato tells us a
                    > > > > bit
                    > > > > about simple meals.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Best regards
                    > > > >
                    > > > > RM
                    > > > >
                    > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                    > > > > From: "Marco Berni"
                    > <mberni@...>
                    > > > > To: <Apicius@yahoogroups.com>
                    > > > > Sent: Friday, September 30, 2005 8:19
                    > AM
                    > > > > Subject: Re: [Apicius] Re: Recipes
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > That is common misconception.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > For 'Romans' one must differentiate
                    > between
                    > > the
                    > > > city dwelling capiti
                    > > > > censi (who indeed lived largely on
                    > state
                    > > and other
                    > > > handouts,
                    > > > > depending on the historical time frame)
                    > and
                    > > those
                    > > > citizens of the
                    > > > > 'middle' classes who came from the
                    > > countryside,
                    > > > both around Latium
                    > > > > and later around Italia.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > These citizens would have had access to
                    > a
                    > > > reasonably varied diet
                    > > > > based on their own locally grown,
                    > farmed
                    > > (or
                    > > > fished or caught)
                    > > > > produce.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Those that lived by the sea would have
                    > had
                    > > a more
                    > > > fish based diet,
                    > > > > those inland more fowl and vegetable.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > It therefore is possible to recreate
                    > foods
                    > > the
                    > > > Romans 'might' have
                    > > > > eaten (I say might as we have no
                    > written
                    > > recipes
                    > > > to go on, only
                    > > > > knowledge of what was
                    > grown/fished/farmed
                    > > and the
                    > > > guidelines
                    > > > > presented by how much of this same
                    > fayre
                    > > has been
                    > > > eaten since before
                    > > > > living memory in the regions concerned.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > It is a fairly safe bet that a grilled
                    > fish
                    > > of a
                    > > > plate of sautéed
                    > > > > mussels would undergo (broadly) the
                    > same
                    > > > preparation then as now.
                    > > > > Oil, herbs, garlic and wine..
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Marco
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > On Sep 29, 2005, at 22:32, Richard Cook
                    > > wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >> The way I understand Roman society the
                    > > 'average
                    > > > Roman' would
                    > > > >> probably be
                    > > > >> very poor, possibly iving on a
                    > subsistance
                    > > diet -
                    > > > porridge, pottage
                    > > > >> etc, or
                    > > > >> perhaps with some income enabling them
                    > to
                    > > buy
                    > > > food from a
                    > > > >> thermapolium etc.
                    > > > >>
                    > > > >> High status food was for the rich,
                    > exotic
                    > > meats,
                    > > > rare spices,
                    > > > >> delicaces etc.
                    > > > >> Low status food was for the masses, a
                    > > fairly
                    > > > bland diet as I
                    > > > >> understand it.
                    > > > >> I'm not sure who would be described as
                    > > 'middle
                    > > > class'. Perhaps the
                    > > > >> Legionary soldier, who earnt a wage
                    > and
                    > > might
                    > > > have disposable income.
                    > > > >>
                    > > > >> gnaeus
                    > > > >> -----Original Message-----
                    > > > >> From: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > [mailto:Apicius@yahoogroups.com]On
                    > > > >> Behalf Of
                    > > > >> Lucius Servilius
                    > > > >> Sent: 29 September 2005 06:45
                    > > > >> To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > >> Subject: [Apicius] Re: Recipes
                    > > > >>
                    > > > >>
                    > > > >> --- In Apicius@yahoogroups.com,
                    > "Richard
                    > > Cook"
                    > > > <richard_cook@b...>
                    > > > >> wrote:
                    > > > >>
                    > > > >>
                    > > > >>> What equipment do you have? Basic
                    > > pots,pans,
                    > > > firepit.
                    > > > >>> How many are you feeding? 3
                    > > > >>> High status or low? If you mean am I
                    > > upper class
                    > > > or low class I am
                    > > > >>>
                    > > > >>>
                    > > > >> middle class. I just want average
                    > meals
                    > > for
                    > > > breakfast - lunch -
                    > > > >> dinner & a decent dessert. That an
                    > > average
                    > > > roman would have ate.
                    > > > >>
                    > > > >>
                    > > > >>>
                    > > > >>> gnaeus
                    > > > >>> -----Original Message-----
                    > > > >>> From: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > [mailto:Apicius@yahoogroups.com]On
                    > > > >>>
                    > > > >>>
                    > > > >> Behalf Of
                    > > > >>
                    > > > >>
                    > > > >>> Lucius Servilius
                    > > > >>> Sent: 28 September 2005 07:01
                    > > > >>> To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > >>> Subject: [Apicius] Recipes
                    > > > >>>
                    > > > >>>
                    > > > >>> Salvete Omnes,
                    > > > >>>
                    > > > >>> I am looking for a days worth of
                    > > recipes just
                    > > > three meals with
                    > > > >>> dessert. Any assistance would be
                    > > greatly
                    > > > appreciated.
                    > > > >>>
                    > > > >>> Valete,
                    > > > >>> Lucius Servilius
                    > > > >>>
                    > > > >>>
                    > > > >>>
                    > > > >>>
                    > > > >>>
                    > > > >>>
                    > > > >>> Post message:
                    > Apicius@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > >>> Unsubscribe:
                    > > > Apicius-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > >>> List owner:
                    > > Apicius-owner@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > >>>
                    > > > >>>
                    > > > >>>
                    > > > >>>
                    > > > >>> SPONSORED LINKS Ancient history A
                    > > brief
                    > > > history of time Ancient
                    > > > >>>
                    > > > >>>
                    > > > >> roman
                    > > > >>
                    > > > >>
                    > > > >>>
                    > > > >>>
                    > > > >>>
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    --------------------------------------------------------------------
                    > > > >>>
                    > > > >>>
                    > > > >> --------
                    > > > >>
                    > > > >>
                    > > > >>> --
                    > > > >>> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                    > > >
                    > > === message truncated ===
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Baroness Aurelia Rufinia
                    > > Barony of Carolingia,
                    > > East Kingdom, Northshield Ex-Pat
                    > >
                    > > "I think we've all arrived at a very
                    > special
                    > > place. Spiritually, ecumenically,
                    > > grammatically..."
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > __________________________________
                    > > Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice
                    > 2005
                    > > http://mail.yahoo.com
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > __________________________________
                    > Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice
                    > 2005
                    > http://mail.yahoo.com
                    >
                    >
                    > Post message: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
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                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > SPONSORED LINKS Ancient history A brief
                    > history of time
                    >
                    >
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                  • lilinah@earthlink.net
                    ... When I did a Greco-Roman feast, i assigned the dishes to a number of different cooks. The one who made the Moretum par-boiled the garlic first. I guess
                    Message 9 of 26 , Nov 5, 2005
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Correus scripsit:
                      >Have any of you tried roasting the garlic first
                      >when making Moretum?

                      When I did a Greco-Roman feast, i assigned the dishes to a number of
                      different cooks. The one who made the Moretum par-boiled the garlic
                      first. I guess some people prefer their garlic milder. But i thought
                      it lacked punch.

                      Roasting would also reduce the harshness of raw garlic, but it would
                      add a nice "caramelized" flavor.

                      Anahita
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