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Re: [Apicius] Digest Number 828

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  • Allan Hunnicutt
    Just reading Phil s posting. Thirty years certainly is an impressive amount of experience and commitment to a hobby. Having studied classical language must
    Message 1 of 7 , Feb 27, 2005
      Just reading Phil's posting. Thirty years certainly is an impressive amount of experience and commitment to a hobby. Having studied classical language must indeed be an advantage with Roman cookery.

      Thirty years ago I was studying Spanish, twenty years ago Chinese. On a recent trip to Guangzhou I tasted some kabobs grilled by a roadside hawker from Xinjiang (Chinese Turkistan). They seemed reminiscent indeed of some of the dishes I have worked with. I know he used cumin, but suspect he may also have added another dried herb, which he didn't mention, perhaps thyme....perhaps just cumin. Anyway, they were delicious, And the lamb was tender, something which isn't always true with Xinjiang kabobs.

      Wonder why no one in the US has started up a Roman restaurant.



      Apicius@yahoogroups.com wrote:


      There are 6 messages in this issue.

      Topics in this digest:

      1. Re: :forks
      From: medieval_man_inc@...
      2. Re: Garum?
      From: medieval_man_inc@...
      3. Re: What's with lovage?
      From: medieval_man_inc@...
      4. Re: Re: Garum?
      From: pmzaret@...
      5. Re: Garum?
      From: medieval_man_inc@...
      6. Re: Re: Garum?
      From: pmzaret@...


      ________________________________________________________________________
      ________________________________________________________________________

      Message: 1
      Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 19:22:29 -0000
      From: medieval_man_inc@...
      Subject: Re: :forks



      --- In Apicius@yahoogroups.com, "Weingarten" wrote:
      > A very quick search of biblical and talmudic literature turned up the
      > following on forks.
      I did a 2nd hand article on fork history I put it in the files section
      if anyone is interested. (it needs updating, no time these days to dig
      into research)
      Hope you find it interesting.

      Xaviar

      http://www.angelfire.com/rings/medieval_man_inc/








      ________________________________________________________________________
      ________________________________________________________________________

      Message: 2
      Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 19:15:56 -0000
      From: medieval_man_inc@...
      Subject: Re: Garum?



      --- In Apicius@yahoogroups.com, Joanne Shaver wrote:
      > Salvete, All! Merlinia here.
      > I have Thai Fish sauce and Garum made from mackerel; neither of
      > them are either strong or pungent, more like soy sauce. I think
      > Worcestershire sauce is stronger, myself. However, I've seen some
      modern
      > recipes for garum that are pretty gross.

      Greetings all... I have just joined this group... more on me later...

      I have found through many years of trial and error, that a asian sauce
      "Noc Mum" is most likely the closest to Garum you will find, taste
      wise, it is just fish where as worchestershire is many other
      ingredients to taste. just my opinion. but I have used it
      successfully in periond cook ing for many years

      Xaviar

      http://www.angelfire.com/rings/medieval_man_inc/








      ________________________________________________________________________
      ________________________________________________________________________

      Message: 3
      Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 19:18:05 -0000
      From: medieval_man_inc@...
      Subject: Re: What's with lovage?



      --- In Apicius@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Cook" wrote:
      > ' For an herb that's relatively uncommon today, I was wondering
      what made
      > it so prominent in Roman cooking. Any thoughts?'
      >
      >
      > My understanding is that 100 years ago both lovage and rue were much
      more
      > prominent in our cooking (in the UK at least). Maybe our tastes have
      > changed away from these 'bitter' flavours. Look at the move in
      popularity
      > from ale (bitter) towards lager beers. Personally I enjoy bitter
      flavours.
      >


      I have used Lovage and found that Celery Seed can be a much cheaper
      substitiute without much difference in taste. If you taste it you will
      find that it can be used on all things. It is more of a salty taste
      than a bitter one..

      Xaviar

      http://www.angelfire.com/rings/medieval_man_inc/








      ________________________________________________________________________
      ________________________________________________________________________

      Message: 4
      Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 18:57:12 -0500
      From: pmzaret@...
      Subject: Re: Re: Garum?

      I agree. I've been cooking Roman recipes on and off for almost 30 years, and the 'fish sauce' you can buy cheaply in Asian groceries seems to be the genuine article. If you want variety, a good grocery will stock 10 or more different brands of fish sauce, each made from slightly different ingredients.
      Phil Z


      ________________________________________________________________________
      ________________________________________________________________________

      Message: 5
      Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 03:38:23 -0000
      From: medieval_man_inc@...
      Subject: Re: Garum?


      --- In Apicius@yahoogroups.com, pmzaret@a... wrote:
      > I agree. I've been cooking Roman recipes on and off for almost 30
      years, and the 'fish sauce' you can buy cheaply in Asian groceries
      seems to be the genuine article. If you want variety, a good grocery
      will stock 10 or more different brands of fish sauce, each made from
      slightly different ingredients.
      > Phil Z

      wow have me beat...30 years... are you a SCAdian? or some other
      recreation group perhaps?

      Xaviar

      http://www.angelfire.com/rings/medieval_man_inc/





      ________________________________________________________________________
      ________________________________________________________________________

      Message: 6
      Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 07:09:04 -0500
      From: pmzaret@...
      Subject: Re: Re: Garum?

      No, I'm just old. I studied Classics in college, and some years later, I got into cooking - then I combined my two interests. However, I found it difficult to get other people excited about Roman cooking (surprise?), but I've never lost interest myself. The one thing I've learned is that, while other people's interpretations of the original Latin recipes are interesting, if you want to cook like the Romans did, learn as much as you can about the period and work from the Apicius recipes directly (in translation, probably).
      Phil Z
      Phil Z


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    • pmzaret@comcast.net
      There was a Roman restaurant in New York City - I believe it lasted about five years, and closed fairly recently. The name, unfortunately, escapes me. I think
      Message 2 of 7 , Feb 28, 2005
        There was a Roman restaurant in New York City - I believe it lasted about five years, and closed fairly recently. The name, unfortunately, escapes me. I think it may have had the word "Forum" in it. I read an article about it in some newspaper, and the food sounded good. I don't know what caused them to go out of business, but the restaurant business in New York is a pretty chancy thing at any rate. Sorry this is so vague. I will put my mind to it and see if I can come up with some more specifics. If anyone else has a clearer recollection (or if I'm just dreaming it) let me know.
        Phil Z

        -------------- Original message --------------
        Just reading Phil's posting. Thirty years certainly is an impressive amount of experience and commitment to a hobby. Having studied classical language must indeed be an advantage with Roman cookery.

        Thirty years ago I was studying Spanish, twenty years ago Chinese. On a recent trip to Guangzhou I tasted some kabobs grilled by a roadside hawker from Xinjiang (Chinese Turkistan). They seemed reminiscent indeed of some of the dishes I have worked with. I know he used cumin, but suspect he may also have added another dried herb, which he didn't mention, perhaps thyme....perhaps just cumin. Anyway, they were delicious, And the lamb was tender, something which isn't always true with Xinjiang kabobs.

        Wonder why no one in the US has started up a Roman restaurant.



        Apicius@yahoogroups.com wrote:


        There are 6 messages in this issue.

        Topics in this digest:

        1. Re: :forks
        From: medieval_man_inc@...
        2. Re: Garum?
        From: medieval_man_inc@...
        3. Re: What's with lovage?
        From: medieval_man_inc@...
        4. Re: Re: Garum?
        From: pmzaret@...
        5. Re: Garum?
        From: medieval_man_inc@...
        6. Re: Re: Garum?
        From: pmzaret@...


        ________________________________________________________________________
        ________________________________________________________________________

        Message: 1
        Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 19:22:29 -0000
        From: medieval_man_inc@...
        Subject: Re: :forks



        --- In Apicius@yahoogroups.com, "Weingarten" wrote:
        > A very quick search of biblical and talmudic literature turned up the
        > following on forks.
        I did a 2nd hand article on fork history I put it in the files section
        if anyone is interested. (it needs updating, no time these days to dig
        into research)
        Hope you find it interesting.

        Xaviar

        http://www.angelfire.com/rings/medieval_man_inc/








        ________________________________________________________________________
        ________________________________________________________________________

        Message: 2
        Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 19:15:56 -0000
        From: medieval_man_inc@...
        Subject: Re: Garum?



        --- In Apicius@yahoogroups.com, Joanne Shaver wrote:
        > Salvete, All! Merlinia here.
        > I have Thai Fish sauce and Garum made from mackerel; neither of
        > them are either strong or pungent, more like soy sauce. I think
        > Worcestershire sauce is stronger, myself. However, I've seen some
        modern
        > recipes for garum that are pretty gross.

        Greetings all... I have just joined this group... more on me later...

        I have found through many years of trial and error, that a asian sauce
        "Noc Mum" is most likely the closest to Garum you will find, taste
        wise, it is just fish where as worchestershire is many other
        ingredients to taste. just my opinion. but I have used it
        successfully in periond cook ing for many years

        Xaviar

        http://www.angelfire.com/rings/medieval_man_inc/








        ________________________________________________________________________
        ________________________________________________________________________

        Message: 3
        Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 19:18:05 -0000
        From: medieval_man_inc@...
        Subject: Re: What's with lovage?



        --- In Apicius@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Cook" wrote:
        > ' For an herb that's relatively uncommon today, I was wondering
        what made
        > it so prominent in Roman cooking. Any thoughts?'
        >
        >
        > My understanding is that 100 years ago both lovage and rue were much
        more
        > prominent in our cooking (in the UK at least). Maybe our tastes have
        > changed away from these 'bitter' flavours. Look at the move in
        popularity
        > from ale (bitter) towards lager beers. Personally I enjoy bitter
        flavours.
        >


        I have used Lovage and found that Celery Seed can be a much cheaper
        substitiute without much difference in taste. If you taste it you will
        find that it can be used on all things. It is more of a salty taste
        than a bitter one..

        Xaviar

        http://www.angelfire.com/rings/medieval_man_inc/








        ________________________________________________________________________
        ________________________________________________________________________

        Message: 4
        Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 18:57:12 -0500
        From: pmzaret@...
        Subject: Re: Re: Garum?

        I agree. I've been cooking Roman recipes on and off for almost 30 years, and the 'fish sauce' you can buy cheaply in Asian groceries seems to be the genuine article. If you want variety, a good grocery will stock 10 or more different brands of fish sauce, each made from slightly different ingredients.
        Phil Z


        ________________________________________________________________________
        ________________________________________________________________________

        Message: 5
        Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 03:38:23 -0000
        From: medieval_man_inc@...
        Subject: Re: Garum?


        --- In Apicius@yahoogroups.com, pmzaret@a... wrote:
        > I agree. I've been cooking Roman recipes on and off for almost 30
        years, and the 'fish sauce' you can buy cheaply in Asian groceries
        seems to be the genuine article. If you want variety, a good grocery
        will stock 10 or more different brands of fish sauce, each made from
        slightly different ingredients.
        > Phil Z

        wow have me beat...30 years... are you a SCAdian? or some other
        recreation group perhaps?

        Xaviar

        http://www.angelfire.com/rings/medieval_man_inc/





        ________________________________________________________________________
        ________________________________________________________________________

        Message: 6
        Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 07:09:04 -0500
        From: pmzaret@...
        Subject: Re: Re: Garum?

        No, I'm just old. I studied Classics in college, and some years later, I got into cooking - then I combined my two interests. However, I found it difficult to get other people excited about Roman cooking (surprise?), but I've never lost interest myself. The one thing I've learned is that, while other people's interpretations of the original Latin recipes are interesting, if you want to cook like the Romans did, learn as much as you can about the period and work from the Apicius recipes directly (in translation, probably).
        Phil Z
        Phil Z


        ________________________________________________________________________
        ________________________________________________________________________


        Post message: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
        Unsubscribe: Apicius-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        List owner: Apicius-owner@yahoogroups.com

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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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      • Judith Lerner
        You re not dreaming. It was called the Forum of the Twelve Caesars and was founded by Jerome Brody who was the originator of Restaurants Associates in the
        Message 3 of 7 , Feb 28, 2005
          You're not dreaming. It was called the Forum of the Twelve Caesars and was
          founded by Jerome Brody who was the originator of Restaurants Associates in
          the 1960's; he was also responsible for such other famous eateries like the
          Four Seasons, the Rainbow Room and Fonda del Sole. The Forum closed many
          years ago; I remember as a child my parents telling me about their feast
          there. Wish I could remember what they told me about the food, but I know
          that they enjoyed it; all that stuck was that the decor was purple and red
          and that the waiters wore togas.

          Judith

          -----Original Message-----
          From: pmzaret@... [mailto:pmzaret@...]
          Sent: Monday, February 28, 2005 3:15 PM
          To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [Apicius] Digest Number 828



          There was a Roman restaurant in New York City - I believe it lasted about
          five years, and closed fairly recently. The name, unfortunately, escapes me.
          I think it may have had the word "Forum" in it. I read an article about it
          in some newspaper, and the food sounded good. I don't know what caused them
          to go out of business, but the restaurant business in New York is a pretty
          chancy thing at any rate. Sorry this is so vague. I will put my mind to it
          and see if I can come up with some more specifics. If anyone else has a
          clearer recollection (or if I'm just dreaming it) let me know.
          Phil Z





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Cathy Kaufman
          Actually, the ancient Roman restaurant was called Cave Canum, located on NYC s lower east side in an old bath house complete with tiled swimming pool that
          Message 4 of 7 , Feb 28, 2005
            Actually, the ancient Roman restaurant was called Cave Canum, located on
            NYC's lower east side in an old bath house complete with tiled swimming pool
            that passed as a tepidarium. It lasted about 2 - 3 years in the mid 1980s
            before folding. It was much more a trendy spot for young professionals than
            a serious recreation, although I met one of its line cooks about 6 years
            ago, and he claimed to have used some recipes from Apicius. Restaurant
            Associates' Forum of the 12 Caesars was high end Italian, in the 1960s but
            hardly anything members of this list would consider "authentic." The
            restaurant menu used cutesy names for dishes, not serious ancient food, as
            its well-heeled audience would never have stood for something that unusual.

            Cathy
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Judith Lerner" <judith.lerner@...>
            To: <Apicius@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Monday, February 28, 2005 5:58 PM
            Subject: RE: [Apicius] Digest Number 828


            >
            > You're not dreaming. It was called the Forum of the Twelve Caesars and was
            > founded by Jerome Brody who was the originator of Restaurants Associates
            > in
            > the 1960's; he was also responsible for such other famous eateries like
            > the
            > Four Seasons, the Rainbow Room and Fonda del Sole. The Forum closed many
            > years ago; I remember as a child my parents telling me about their feast
            > there. Wish I could remember what they told me about the food, but I know
            > that they enjoyed it; all that stuck was that the decor was purple and red
            > and that the waiters wore togas.
            >
            > Judith
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: pmzaret@... [mailto:pmzaret@...]
            > Sent: Monday, February 28, 2005 3:15 PM
            > To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: Re: [Apicius] Digest Number 828
            >
            >
            >
            > There was a Roman restaurant in New York City - I believe it lasted about
            > five years, and closed fairly recently. The name, unfortunately, escapes
            > me.
            > I think it may have had the word "Forum" in it. I read an article about it
            > in some newspaper, and the food sounded good. I don't know what caused
            > them
            > to go out of business, but the restaurant business in New York is a pretty
            > chancy thing at any rate. Sorry this is so vague. I will put my mind to it
            > and see if I can come up with some more specifics. If anyone else has a
            > clearer recollection (or if I'm just dreaming it) let me know.
            > Phil Z
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Post message: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
            > Unsubscribe: Apicius-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > List owner: Apicius-owner@yahoogroups.com
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • Sheila Michaels
            ... Ah, the Cave would have been in the late 80s, at least. In the early & mid- 80s it was still a very notorious bathhouse, frequented by no one who was
            Message 5 of 7 , Feb 28, 2005
              At 07:01 PM 2/28/2005 , you wrote:
              >Actually, the ancient Roman restaurant was called Cave Canum, located on
              >NYC's lower east side in an old bath house complete with tiled swimming pool
              >that passed as a tepidarium. It lasted about 2 - 3 years in the mid 1980s
              >before folding. It was much more a trendy spot for young professionals than
              >a serious recreation, although I met one of its line cooks about 6 years
              >ago, and he claimed to have used some recipes from Apicius. Restaurant
              >Associates' Forum of the 12 Caesars was high end Italian, in the 1960s but
              >hardly anything members of this list would consider "authentic." The
              >restaurant menu used cutesy names for dishes, not serious ancient food, as
              >its well-heeled audience would never have stood for something that unusual.


              Ah, the Cave would have been in the late '80s, at least. In the early &
              mid-'80s it was still a very notorious bathhouse, frequented by no one who
              was anyone, in the esteem of the people who knew. It had to close, as
              Mayor Koch closed all bath houses, for reasons of public health, at the
              height of the AIDS epidemic. It reopened with the play on the idea of
              letting the patron "beware", & an aura of loucheness, with intimations of
              gallows humor. Then it became an ersatz Chinese restaurant, with all
              transvestite waitresses. That may still be there, for all I know.
              As for the Forum, my memory is dim. I went with my parents, when
              I was a young woman, new to NY, & was very unimpressed, It seemed to me to
              be the same old restaurant fare with the same sort of setting, but with
              high prices & odd names, which made a fuss about itself. It was only many
              years later that I read that it was supposed to have some theme to it. I
              do understand now that it was supposed to have been a labor of love, for
              the restaurant's owner.
            • pmzaret@comcast.net
              For those seeking an ancient Roman restaurant, according to the vol. 3, no. 2 issue of the magazine Gastronomica published in 2003, there s an
              Message 6 of 7 , Mar 1, 2005
                For those seeking an ancient Roman restaurant, according to the vol. 3, no. 2 issue of the magazine "Gastronomica" published in 2003, there's an "archeological" restaurant near the Coliseum in Rome (Italy), called the "Magna Roma", serving Apicius-like dishes. The author, David Downie, found the food quite acceptable.
                Phil Z

                -------------- Original message --------------
                At 07:01 PM 2/28/2005 , you wrote:
                >Actually, the ancient Roman restaurant was called Cave Canum, located on
                >NYC's lower east side in an old bath house complete with tiled swimming pool
                >that passed as a tepidarium. It lasted about 2 - 3 years in the mid 1980s
                >before folding. It was much more a trendy spot for young professionals than
                >a serious recreation, although I met one of its line cooks about 6 years
                >ago, and he claimed to have used some recipes from Apicius. Restaurant
                >Associates' Forum of the 12 Caesars was high end Italian, in the 1960s but
                >hardly anything members of this list would consider "authentic." The
                >restaurant menu used cutesy names for dishes, not serious ancient food, as
                >its well-heeled audience would never have stood for something that unusual.


                Ah, the Cave would have been in the late '80s, at least. In the early &
                mid-'80s it was still a very notorious bathhouse, frequented by no one who
                was anyone, in the esteem of the people who knew. It had to close, as
                Mayor Koch closed all bath houses, for reasons of public health, at the
                height of the AIDS epidemic. It reopened with the play on the idea of
                letting the patron "beware", & an aura of loucheness, with intimations of
                gallows humor. Then it became an ersatz Chinese restaurant, with all
                transvestite waitresses. That may still be there, for all I know.
                As for the Forum, my memory is dim. I went with my parents, when
                I was a young woman, new to NY, & was very unimpressed, It seemed to me to
                be the same old restaurant fare with the same sort of setting, but with
                high prices & odd names, which made a fuss about itself. It was only many
                years later that I read that it was supposed to have some theme to it. I
                do understand now that it was supposed to have been a labor of love, for
                the restaurant's owner.



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              • Marco Berni
                Phil This restaurant has since closed. It seems to still operate, outwardly at least, with a Roman theme but I don t think the new restaurant s mission is
                Message 7 of 7 , Mar 1, 2005
                  Phil

                  This restaurant has since closed.

                  It seems to still operate, outwardly at least, with a Roman theme but I
                  don't think the new restaurant's mission is archaeological cuisine as
                  it was before.

                  I'll take a look at there menu when I next pass it on my way into Rome
                  and let you know what they are doing now.

                  Marco

                  I ate there once about three years ago and sent a review to the apicius
                  group. It should be in the archives.

                  On Mar 1, 2005, at 14:05, pmzaret@... wrote:

                  >
                  > For those seeking an ancient Roman restaurant, according to the vol.
                  > 3, no. 2 issue of the magazine "Gastronomica" published in 2003,
                  > there's an "archeological" restaurant near the Coliseum in Rome
                  > (Italy), called the "Magna Roma", serving Apicius-like dishes. The
                  > author, David Downie, found the food quite acceptable.
                  > Phil Z
                  >
                  > -------------- Original message --------------
                  > At 07:01 PM 2/28/2005 , you wrote:
                  >> Actually, the ancient Roman restaurant was called Cave Canum, located
                  >> on
                  >> NYC's lower east side in an old bath house complete with tiled
                  >> swimming pool
                  >> that passed as a tepidarium. It lasted about 2 - 3 years in the mid
                  >> 1980s
                  >> before folding. It was much more a trendy spot for young
                  >> professionals than
                  >> a serious recreation, although I met one of its line cooks about 6
                  >> years
                  >> ago, and he claimed to have used some recipes from Apicius.
                  >> Restaurant
                  >> Associates' Forum of the 12 Caesars was high end Italian, in the
                  >> 1960s but
                  >> hardly anything members of this list would consider "authentic." The
                  >> restaurant menu used cutesy names for dishes, not serious ancient
                  >> food, as
                  >> its well-heeled audience would never have stood for something that
                  >> unusual.
                  >
                  >
                  > Ah, the Cave would have been in the late '80s, at least. In the early
                  > &
                  > mid-'80s it was still a very notorious bathhouse, frequented by no one
                  > who
                  > was anyone, in the esteem of the people who knew. It had to close, as
                  > Mayor Koch closed all bath houses, for reasons of public health, at the
                  > height of the AIDS epidemic. It reopened with the play on the idea of
                  > letting the patron "beware", & an aura of loucheness, with intimations
                  > of
                  > gallows humor. Then it became an ersatz Chinese restaurant, with all
                  > transvestite waitresses. That may still be there, for all I know.
                  > As for the Forum, my memory is dim. I went with my parents,
                  > when
                  > I was a young woman, new to NY, & was very unimpressed, It seemed to
                  > me to
                  > be the same old restaurant fare with the same sort of setting, but with
                  > high prices & odd names, which made a fuss about itself. It was only
                  > many
                  > years later that I read that it was supposed to have some theme to it.
                  > I
                  > do understand now that it was supposed to have been a labor of love,
                  > for
                  > the restaurant's owner.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Post message: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
                  > Unsubscribe: Apicius-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > List owner: Apicius-owner@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                  > ADVERTISEMENT
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                  >
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                  >
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