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Re: [Apicius] Garum?

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  • Armand Maréchal
    Do you have any idea wether they sell / ship oustide Italy? If so, what quantities? I have been trying to find colatura d´alici here in Germany, but no
    Message 1 of 20 , Jan 18, 2005
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      Do you have any idea wether they sell / ship oustide Italy? If so, what
      quantities?

      I have been trying to find colatura d´alici here in Germany, but no success.

      Armand

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Marco Berni" <mberni@...>
      To: <Apicius@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 2:24 PM
      Subject: Re: [Apicius] Garum?


      >
      > As an alternative to oriental fish sauces (which can vary greatly in
      > smell), there is a producer of modern day 'liquamen' here in Italy.
      >
      > The product is called Colatura d' Alici today and is made from the
      > strainings of salted anchovies.
      >
      > The producer is:
      >
      >
      > 'Delfino Battista S.r.l. Corso Umberto I, No. 58, Cetara, Salerno,
      > Italy.
      >
      > Tel: 089 261069 Fax: 089 261928
      >
      > email: delfinsrl@...
    • Marco Berni
      My pleasure... The only pizzas that should carry anchovies are the Napoletana , (tomato, mozzarella and anchovy) and the fiore di zucca (mozzarella,
      Message 2 of 20 , Jan 18, 2005
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        My pleasure...

        The only pizzas that should carry anchovies are the 'Napoletana',
        (tomato, mozzarella and anchovy) and the' fiore di zucca' (mozzarella,
        zucchini flowers and anchovy).

        When I say 'only' I mean as in 'real' Italian pizzas.

        Fois gras is divine, anyone who doesn't appreciate it doesn't know what
        they are missing. Same goes for truffles.

        Marco


        On Jan 18, 2005, at 16:53, Joe Zielinski wrote:

        >
        > Thanks Marco
        >
        > I may try the Colatura d' Alici. I've had a few different fish sauces-
        > mostly Asian. Anchovy paste is great (in small doses). A lot of my
        > local pizzerias don't even bother advertising anchovies for their pies
        > anymore. I think they've turned off too many people by over-dosing the
        > pies with about a ½ lb. of anchovies (LOL)...
        >
        > Considering some of the foods I enjoy, I wouldn't tend to call any
        > food gross...
        > I'm sure other people would consider Kiszka (blood sausage) or Czanina
        > (duck's blood soup) gross.
        > My sister thinks Foie Gras is disgusting! Different strokes...
        >
        > Thanks everyone
        >
        > Pax
        >
        > Joe Z.
        >
        > ( PanZagloba@... )
        >
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        > - Dum Spiro Spero -
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      • Marco Berni
        Armand I bought mine through a wholesaler here in Italy that supplies such delicacies to the restaurant trade. Mine is a 100ml bottle and I seem to recall it
        Message 3 of 20 , Jan 18, 2005
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          Armand

          I bought mine through a wholesaler here in Italy that supplies such
          delicacies to the restaurant trade. Mine is a 100ml bottle and I seem
          to recall it cost about €5 or more. They also do larger sizes
          according to the label attached to the neck of the bottle.

          I would assume that they would post to Germany, obviously you would
          have to pay the postage and they might be more interested in an order
          for more than one bottle, but they are a small producer and generally
          speaking Italian firms are more than willing to assist anything that
          smells like an 'export' market for their product.

          Tell them you want it as a sample and would consider buying in larger
          quantities if you like it.

          Marco

          On Jan 18, 2005, at 20:06, Armand Maréchal wrote:

          >
          > Do you have any idea wether they sell / ship oustide Italy? If so, what
          > quantities?
          >
          > I have been trying to find colatura d´alici here in Germany, but no
          > success.
          >
          > Armand
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: "Marco Berni" <mberni@...>
          > To: <Apicius@yahoogroups.com>
          > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 2:24 PM
          > Subject: Re: [Apicius] Garum?
          >
          >
          >>
          >> As an alternative to oriental fish sauces (which can vary greatly in
          >> smell), there is a producer of modern day 'liquamen' here in Italy.
          >>
          >> The product is called Colatura d' Alici today and is made from the
          >> strainings of salted anchovies.
          >>
          >> The producer is:
          >>
          >>
          >> 'Delfino Battista S.r.l. Corso Umberto I, No. 58, Cetara, Salerno,
          >> Italy.
          >>
          >> Tel: 089 261069 Fax: 089 261928
          >>
          >> email: delfinsrl@...
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Post message: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
          > Unsubscribe: Apicius-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          > List owner: Apicius-owner@yahoogroups.com
          >
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          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • pmzaret@aol.com
          Garum or colatura made in Italy is available (the last time I checked) from Zingerman s Deli, 422 Detroit St., Ann Arbor, Mich 48103 (phone:734-663-3354).
          Message 4 of 20 , Jan 18, 2005
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            Garum or colatura made in Italy is available (the last time I checked) from Zingerman's Deli, 422 Detroit St., Ann Arbor, Mich 48103 (phone:734-663-3354). Zingerman's does a huge mail-order business. The only problem is price. As I recall it's about $15.00 for a twelve-ounce bottle. A like amount of Asian fish sauce can be bought in an Asian grocery for about 75 cents.
            Phil
          • Richard Cook
            Garum or liquamen was not gross . People don t eat things they think are gross. Fish sauce/liquamen on its own is not a particularly pleasent flavour. If
            Message 5 of 20 , Jan 18, 2005
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              " Garum or liquamen was not 'gross'. People don't eat things they think are
              gross."


              Fish sauce/liquamen on its own is not a particularly pleasent flavour. If
              you look at Thai recipies, sugar seems to always be used alongside fish
              sauce this is because they bring a balance. Likewise honey appears
              alongside liquamen, because these too balance.

              Richard C


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • lilinah@earthlink.net
              ... Well, i suppose it depends on your personal taste and your experience. I do not agree that Thai fish sauce is not a particularly pleasent flavour . I
              Message 6 of 20 , Jan 19, 2005
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                "Richard Cook" <richard_cook@...> wrote:
                >>Garum or liquamen was not 'gross'. People don't eat things they
                >>think are gross.
                >
                >Fish sauce/liquamen on its own is not a particularly pleasent flavour. If
                >you look at Thai recipies, sugar seems to always be used alongside fish
                >sauce this is because they bring a balance. Likewise honey appears
                >alongside liquamen, because these too balance.

                Well, i suppose it depends on your personal taste and your experience.

                I do not agree that Thai fish sauce "is not a particularly pleasent
                flavour". I enjoy the taste a great deal. I often ask for more when
                i'm in a Thai restaurant. Some dishes need more, in my opinion - it's
                obvious that Thai food is toned down in US restaurants from what it
                is in Thailand. (i know folks on this list are in many other
                countries, but my only experience with Thai restaurant food is in the
                US)

                And when talking about balance in Thai food, don't forget the sour,
                which is an important flavor in Thai food, coming from either vinegar
                or citrus juice (in the US lemon or lime, but in Thailand they have
                their own local citrus fruits).

                Some dishes lean more one way than another. There are savory dishes
                that use fish sauce and no sweetening or souring agent, usually meat
                dishes, often including ginger and garlic. Some noodle dishes, such
                as Mee Grob, blend sweet and salty. The ones that most often balance
                the three are "salads" which often have a balance among salty
                provided by the fish sauce, sweet provided by sugar (but i love
                creamy palm sugar, mmm-mmm-mmm), and sour (vinegar or citrus). These
                "salads" also include plenty of fresh hot chilis and strongly
                flavored fresh green herbs such as mint and cilantro (coriander herb).

                Roman food doesn't seem to favor sour as much as Thai food does. But
                it features a great deal of bitter by using rue and some of other
                herbs, such as lovage, which, while not as bitter as rue, does have
                bitter tones.

                I find that Thai fish sauce is more than just salty or "unpleasant".
                It adds a "meaty" quality (the Japanese include this as one of the
                basic flavors, along with salty, sweet, sour, and bitter, but i've
                forgotten their word). And it has a slight sour quality. I would
                imagine that Roman garum was also a complex flavoring.

                Anahita
                I love anchovies, and squeeze anchovy paste onto my (canned) tuna.
                (and i've never seen a pizza in the US with 1/2 lb of anchovies on it
                - usually they're more like decoration). But anchovies do feature on
                French pizza (i lived in Southern France for a year and often bought
                those cold slabs of bread with tomato paste, anchovies, etc.)
              • RM
                Hi! As far as I know from the recipes (one of garum is found in the Geoponika) it is nearly identical to the Vientnamese fish sauce Nuoc Mam (please have a
                Message 7 of 20 , Jan 22, 2005
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                  Hi!

                  As far as I know from the recipes (one of garum is found in the Geoponika)
                  it is nearly identical to the Vientnamese fish sauce "Nuoc Mam" (please have
                  a look here: http://www.vietmedia.com/culture/?L=fishsauce.html or elsewhere
                  ...).

                  It's hard to deduce from the ancient texts if liquamen and garum were really
                  identical since Apicius is the first and nearly the only author who uses
                  "liquamen" instead of "garum". But he prepares "ofellas garatas" with one
                  pound of liquamen. So at least "liquamen" was a certain quality of "garum"
                  (the finest?).

                  Best regards

                  RM

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: <pmzaret@...>
                  To: <Apicius@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 9:08 PM
                  Subject: Re: [Apicius] Garum?


                  >
                  > Garum or colatura made in Italy is available (the last time I checked)
                  from Zingerman's Deli, 422 Detroit St., Ann Arbor, Mich 48103
                  (phone:734-663-3354). Zingerman's does a huge mail-order business. The only
                  problem is price. As I recall it's about $15.00 for a twelve-ounce bottle. A
                  like amount of Asian fish sauce can be bought in an Asian grocery for about
                  75 cents.
                  > Phil
                  >
                  >
                  >
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                  >
                • Richard Cook
                  Am I right in saying that the fork was not used in the 1st century by the Romans? The only two finds I m aware of is a tiny brass/bronze fork in the Cheltenham
                  Message 8 of 20 , Jan 24, 2005
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                    Am I right in saying that the fork was not used in the 1st century by the
                    Romans?

                    The only two finds I'm aware of is a tiny brass/bronze fork in the
                    Cheltenham Museum, England that was probably for cosmetic use (it is
                    suggested it was for combing the eyebrows!) And a 'swiss army knife' type
                    implement that included a fork (don't know where the original as this was a
                    replica.

                    The question arises following difficulties encountered when carving a large
                    joint of meat. if the carcing fork did not excist how did they keep the
                    meat still when carving?

                    Richard C


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • pmzaret@aol.com
                    This is a guess: For raw meat, it was obviously held with the bare hand. For hot cooked meat, a cloth could have been a buffer or a second knife (after all, a
                    Message 9 of 20 , Jan 24, 2005
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                      This is a guess: For raw meat, it was obviously held with the bare hand. For hot cooked meat, a cloth could have been a buffer or a second knife (after all, a fork is just a knife with two or more blades).
                      Phil Z
                    • Warrior Chef
                      Kitchen forks trace their origins back to the time of the Greeks. The forks were fairly large with two tines that aided in the carving and serving of meat. The
                      Message 10 of 20 , Jan 24, 2005
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                        Kitchen forks trace their origins back to the time of the Greeks.

                        The forks were fairly large with two tines that aided in the carving and serving of meat. The tines prevented meat from twisting or moving during carving and allowed food to slide off more easily than it would with a knife.

                        By the 7th Century CE, rthe oyal courts of the Middle East began using forks at the table. From about the 10th through the 13th Centuries, forks were fairly common among the wealthy in Byzantium, and in the 11th Century, a Byzantine wife of a Doge of Venice brought forks to Italy. It was slow to spread Westward.



                        ----- Original Message -----

                        From: Richard Cook
                        To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 11:20 AM
                        Subject: [Apicius] The (carving) fork


                        Am I right in saying that the fork was not used in the 1st century by the
                        Romans?

                        The only two finds I'm aware of is a tiny brass/bronze fork in the
                        Cheltenham Museum, England that was probably for cosmetic use (it is
                        suggested it was for combing the eyebrows!) And a 'swiss army knife' type
                        implement that included a fork (don't know where the original as this was a
                        replica.

                        The question arises following difficulties encountered when carving a large
                        joint of meat. if the carcing fork did not excist how did they keep the
                        meat still when carving?

                        Richard C


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                      • dianaserbe
                        Hi Warrior Chef, Could I ask the source of your information? I would like to delve in a little myself. Thanks, Diana
                        Message 11 of 20 , Jan 25, 2005
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                          Hi Warrior Chef,

                          Could I ask the source of your information? I would like to delve in a little myself.
                          Thanks,
                          Diana


                          --- In Apicius@yahoogroups.com, "Warrior Chef" <warrior-chef@e...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Kitchen forks trace their origins back to the time of the Greeks.
                          >
                          > The forks were fairly large with two tines that aided in the carving and serving of meat. The tines prevented meat from twisting or moving during carving and allowed food to slide off more easily than it would with a knife.
                          >
                          > By the 7th Century CE, rthe oyal courts of the Middle East began using forks at the table. From about the 10th through the 13th Centuries, forks were fairly common among the wealthy in Byzantium, and in the 11th Century, a Byzantine wife of a Doge of Venice brought forks to Italy. It was slow to spread Westward.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          >
                          > From: Richard Cook
                          > To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
                          > Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 11:20 AM
                          > Subject: [Apicius] The (carving) fork
                          >
                          >
                          > Am I right in saying that the fork was not used in the 1st century by the
                          > Romans?
                          >
                          > The only two finds I'm aware of is a tiny brass/bronze fork in the
                          > Cheltenham Museum, England that was probably for cosmetic use (it is
                          > suggested it was for combing the eyebrows!) And a 'swiss army knife' type
                          > implement that included a fork (don't know where the original as this was a
                          > replica.
                          >
                          > The question arises following difficulties encountered when carving a large
                          > joint of meat. if the carcing fork did not excist how did they keep the
                          > meat still when carving?
                          >
                          > Richard C
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >
                          >
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                          > Unsubscribe: Apicius-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                        • medieval_man_inc@yahoo.com
                          ... modern ... Greetings all... I have just joined this group... more on me later... I have found through many years of trial and error, that a asian sauce
                          Message 12 of 20 , Jan 29, 2005
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                            --- In Apicius@yahoogroups.com, Joanne Shaver <merlinia@c...> wrote:
                            > Salvete, All! Merlinia here.
                            > I have Thai Fish sauce and Garum made from mackerel; neither of
                            > them are either strong or pungent, more like soy sauce. I think
                            > Worcestershire sauce is stronger, myself. However, I've seen some
                            modern
                            > recipes for garum that are pretty gross.

                            Greetings all... I have just joined this group... more on me later...

                            I have found through many years of trial and error, that a asian sauce
                            "Noc Mum" is most likely the closest to Garum you will find, taste
                            wise, it is just fish where as worchestershire is many other
                            ingredients to taste. just my opinion. but I have used it
                            successfully in periond cook ing for many years

                            Xaviar

                            http://www.angelfire.com/rings/medieval_man_inc/
                          • pmzaret@aol.com
                            I agree. I ve been cooking Roman recipes on and off for almost 30 years, and the fish sauce you can buy cheaply in Asian groceries seems to be the genuine
                            Message 13 of 20 , Jan 30, 2005
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                              I agree. I've been cooking Roman recipes on and off for almost 30 years, and the 'fish sauce' you can buy cheaply in Asian groceries seems to be the genuine article. If you want variety, a good grocery will stock 10 or more different brands of fish sauce, each made from slightly different ingredients.
                              Phil Z
                            • medieval_man_inc@yahoo.com
                              ... years, and the fish sauce you can buy cheaply in Asian groceries seems to be the genuine article. If you want variety, a good grocery will stock 10 or
                              Message 14 of 20 , Jan 30, 2005
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                                --- In Apicius@yahoogroups.com, pmzaret@a... wrote:
                                > I agree. I've been cooking Roman recipes on and off for almost 30
                                years, and the 'fish sauce' you can buy cheaply in Asian groceries
                                seems to be the genuine article. If you want variety, a good grocery
                                will stock 10 or more different brands of fish sauce, each made from
                                slightly different ingredients.
                                > Phil Z

                                wow have me beat...30 years... are you a SCAdian? or some other
                                recreation group perhaps?

                                Xaviar

                                http://www.angelfire.com/rings/medieval_man_inc/
                              • pmzaret@aol.com
                                No, I m just old. I studied Classics in college, and some years later, I got into cooking - then I combined my two interests. However, I found it difficult to
                                Message 15 of 20 , Jan 31, 2005
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                                  No, I'm just old. I studied Classics in college, and some years later, I got into cooking - then I combined my two interests. However, I found it difficult to get other people excited about Roman cooking (surprise?), but I've never lost interest myself. The one thing I've learned is that, while other people's interpretations of the original Latin recipes are interesting, if you want to cook like the Romans did, learn as much as you can about the period and work from the Apicius recipes directly (in translation, probably).
                                  Phil Z
                                  Phil Z
                                • medieval_man_inc@yahoo.com
                                  ... later, I got into cooking - then I combined my two interests. However, I found it difficult to get other people excited about Roman cooking (surprise?),
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Jan 31, 2005
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                                    --- In Apicius@yahoogroups.com, pmzaret@a... wrote:
                                    > No, I'm just old. I studied Classics in college, and some years
                                    later, I got into cooking - then I combined my two interests. However,
                                    I found it difficult to get other people excited about Roman cooking
                                    (surprise?), but I've never lost interest myself. The one thing I've
                                    learned is that, while other people's interpretations of the original
                                    Latin recipes are interesting, if you want to cook like the Romans
                                    did, learn as much as you can about the period and work from the
                                    Apicius recipes directly (in translation, probably).
                                    > Phil Z
                                    I have found this with most non-cooks that use the old cook books.
                                    They use the redactions exactly and dont take into account each cooks
                                    taste. Even with modern recipes I only look at the ingredients not
                                    the amounts and always season to taste. Im sure you are quite the cook..
                                    One of my favorite Apicius recipes is a mushroom dish here it is
                                    with my scaled up version for feeding mass quanities.

                                    Mushrooms

                                    Boletos aliter:
                                    Tirsos eorum concisos in patellam novam perfundis, addito pipere,
                                    ligustico, modico melle; liquamine temperabis; oleum modice. (Apicius 315)

                                    #10 can mushrooms sliced

                                    Sauce:
                                    measure Reserved mushroom liquid. start with no more that I pint.
                                    Add/cup
                                    to taste pepper; fresh ground
                                    1/2 tsp celery seed alternate with or use Loveage; ground
                                    1 Tsp Honey
                                    1 Tsp Olive oil
                                    1 Tsp Butter

                                    Drain mushroom liquid and measure add measured ingreadents, bring to
                                    a boil, simmer and taste, alter ingreadients to taste, using
                                    additional reserved mushroom liquid. Thicken if necessary with corn
                                    starch slurry. Pan up mushrooms in pans and cover with sause, cover
                                    and hold in hot oven or over sterno.
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