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Garum?

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  • Joanne Shaver
    Salvete, All! Merlinia here. I have Thai Fish sauce and Garum made from mackerel; neither of them are either strong or pungent, more like soy sauce. I think
    Message 1 of 20 , Jan 17, 2005
      Salvete, All! Merlinia here.
      I have Thai Fish sauce and Garum made from mackerel; neither of
      them are either strong or pungent, more like soy sauce. I think
      Worcestershire sauce is stronger, myself. However, I've seen some modern
      recipes for garum that are pretty gross.
      Ta!
      -M.


      Thanks...can't believe I made a rookie mistake like that. It was a sauce
      used in the Roman Legions - I remember vividly a British cooking show
      and the chef was outdoors near Hadrian's Wall reproducing the types of
      dishes the soldiers ate.
      More and more I think it must be garum (fish sauce) since it was
      supposed to be strong and pungent.

      I have found some garum recipes, but I'm wondering how different the
      homemade stuff would be from something like Thai fish sauce...

      Thanks again.
    • pmzaret@aol.com
      Garum or liquamen was not gross . People don t eat things they think are gross. If you look at the quantities called for in the few recipes where exact
      Message 2 of 20 , Jan 18, 2005
        Garum or liquamen was not 'gross'. People don't eat things they think are gross. If you look at the quantities called for in the few recipes where exact measurements are indicated, you can see that they used a fairly large amount - about a quarter of a cup - compared to other liquids. Something as pungent as, say, Worcestershire sauce in those quantities would overwhelm and destroy a dish. Thai (or Vietnamese or other) commercial fish sauces are most probably as close as we're going to get to garum or liquamen. They provide saltiness and a hint of pungency (from the fish), but nothing more. Although the Romans added ingredients to liquamen to vary it from time to time, liquamen was simply salty fish essence in its basic - diluted - form. If you want real pungency, use anchovy paste, which resembles the liquamen or garum byproduct, 'allec'. But, of course, use it with discretion. Anyone who's eaten a pizza with anchovies on it, knows how pungent they can be.
      • Marco Berni
        As an alternative to oriental fish sauces (which can vary greatly in smell), there is a producer of modern day liquamen here in Italy. The product is called
        Message 3 of 20 , Jan 18, 2005
          As an alternative to oriental fish sauces (which can vary greatly in
          smell), there is a producer of modern day 'liquamen' here in Italy.

          The product is called Colatura d' Alici today and is made from the
          strainings of salted anchovies.

          The producer is:


          'Delfino Battista S.r.l. Corso Umberto I, No. 58, Cetara, Salerno,
          Italy.

          Tel: 089 261069 Fax: 089 261928

          email: delfinsrl@...


          For those who insist on having their fish sauce from the Mediterranean.
          ;-)

          Marco


          On Jan 18, 2005, at 13:46, pmzaret@... wrote:

          >
          > Garum or liquamen was not 'gross'. People don't eat things they think
          > are gross. If you look at the quantities called for in the few recipes
          > where exact measurements are indicated, you can see that they used a
          > fairly large amount - about a quarter of a cup - compared to other
          > liquids. Something as pungent as, say, Worcestershire sauce in those
          > quantities would overwhelm and destroy a dish. Thai (or Vietnamese or
          > other) commercial fish sauces are most probably as close as we're
          > going to get to garum or liquamen. They provide saltiness and a hint
          > of pungency (from the fish), but nothing more. Although the Romans
          > added ingredients to liquamen to vary it from time to time, liquamen
          > was simply salty fish essence in its basic - diluted - form. If you
          > want real pungency, use anchovy paste, which resembles the liquamen or
          > garum byproduct, 'allec'. But, of course, use it with discretion.
          > Anyone who's eaten a pizza with anchovies on it, knows how pungent
          > they can be.
          >
          >
          >
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        • Joe Zielinski
          Thanks Marco I may try the Colatura d Alici. I ve had a few different fish sauces- mostly Asian. Anchovy paste is great (in small doses). A lot of my local
          Message 4 of 20 , Jan 18, 2005
            Thanks Marco

            I may try the Colatura d' Alici. I've had a few different fish sauces- mostly Asian. Anchovy paste is great (in small doses). A lot of my local pizzerias don't even bother advertising anchovies for their pies anymore. I think they've turned off too many people by over-dosing the pies with about a ½ lb. of anchovies (LOL)...

            Considering some of the foods I enjoy, I wouldn't tend to call any food gross...
            I'm sure other people would consider Kiszka (blood sausage) or Czanina (duck's blood soup) gross.
            My sister thinks Foie Gras is disgusting! Different strokes...

            Thanks everyone

            Pax

            Joe Z.

            ( PanZagloba@... )

            ---------------

            - Dum Spiro Spero -


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          • Armand Maréchal
            Do you have any idea wether they sell / ship oustide Italy? If so, what quantities? I have been trying to find colatura d´alici here in Germany, but no
            Message 5 of 20 , Jan 18, 2005
              Do you have any idea wether they sell / ship oustide Italy? If so, what
              quantities?

              I have been trying to find colatura d´alici here in Germany, but no success.

              Armand

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Marco Berni" <mberni@...>
              To: <Apicius@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 2:24 PM
              Subject: Re: [Apicius] Garum?


              >
              > As an alternative to oriental fish sauces (which can vary greatly in
              > smell), there is a producer of modern day 'liquamen' here in Italy.
              >
              > The product is called Colatura d' Alici today and is made from the
              > strainings of salted anchovies.
              >
              > The producer is:
              >
              >
              > 'Delfino Battista S.r.l. Corso Umberto I, No. 58, Cetara, Salerno,
              > Italy.
              >
              > Tel: 089 261069 Fax: 089 261928
              >
              > email: delfinsrl@...
            • Marco Berni
              My pleasure... The only pizzas that should carry anchovies are the Napoletana , (tomato, mozzarella and anchovy) and the fiore di zucca (mozzarella,
              Message 6 of 20 , Jan 18, 2005
                My pleasure...

                The only pizzas that should carry anchovies are the 'Napoletana',
                (tomato, mozzarella and anchovy) and the' fiore di zucca' (mozzarella,
                zucchini flowers and anchovy).

                When I say 'only' I mean as in 'real' Italian pizzas.

                Fois gras is divine, anyone who doesn't appreciate it doesn't know what
                they are missing. Same goes for truffles.

                Marco


                On Jan 18, 2005, at 16:53, Joe Zielinski wrote:

                >
                > Thanks Marco
                >
                > I may try the Colatura d' Alici. I've had a few different fish sauces-
                > mostly Asian. Anchovy paste is great (in small doses). A lot of my
                > local pizzerias don't even bother advertising anchovies for their pies
                > anymore. I think they've turned off too many people by over-dosing the
                > pies with about a ½ lb. of anchovies (LOL)...
                >
                > Considering some of the foods I enjoy, I wouldn't tend to call any
                > food gross...
                > I'm sure other people would consider Kiszka (blood sausage) or Czanina
                > (duck's blood soup) gross.
                > My sister thinks Foie Gras is disgusting! Different strokes...
                >
                > Thanks everyone
                >
                > Pax
                >
                > Joe Z.
                >
                > ( PanZagloba@... )
                >
                > ---------------
                >
                > - Dum Spiro Spero -
                >
                >
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                > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
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              • Marco Berni
                Armand I bought mine through a wholesaler here in Italy that supplies such delicacies to the restaurant trade. Mine is a 100ml bottle and I seem to recall it
                Message 7 of 20 , Jan 18, 2005
                  Armand

                  I bought mine through a wholesaler here in Italy that supplies such
                  delicacies to the restaurant trade. Mine is a 100ml bottle and I seem
                  to recall it cost about €5 or more. They also do larger sizes
                  according to the label attached to the neck of the bottle.

                  I would assume that they would post to Germany, obviously you would
                  have to pay the postage and they might be more interested in an order
                  for more than one bottle, but they are a small producer and generally
                  speaking Italian firms are more than willing to assist anything that
                  smells like an 'export' market for their product.

                  Tell them you want it as a sample and would consider buying in larger
                  quantities if you like it.

                  Marco

                  On Jan 18, 2005, at 20:06, Armand Maréchal wrote:

                  >
                  > Do you have any idea wether they sell / ship oustide Italy? If so, what
                  > quantities?
                  >
                  > I have been trying to find colatura d´alici here in Germany, but no
                  > success.
                  >
                  > Armand
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: "Marco Berni" <mberni@...>
                  > To: <Apicius@yahoogroups.com>
                  > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 2:24 PM
                  > Subject: Re: [Apicius] Garum?
                  >
                  >
                  >>
                  >> As an alternative to oriental fish sauces (which can vary greatly in
                  >> smell), there is a producer of modern day 'liquamen' here in Italy.
                  >>
                  >> The product is called Colatura d' Alici today and is made from the
                  >> strainings of salted anchovies.
                  >>
                  >> The producer is:
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> 'Delfino Battista S.r.l. Corso Umberto I, No. 58, Cetara, Salerno,
                  >> Italy.
                  >>
                  >> Tel: 089 261069 Fax: 089 261928
                  >>
                  >> email: delfinsrl@...
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Post message: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
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                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • pmzaret@aol.com
                  Garum or colatura made in Italy is available (the last time I checked) from Zingerman s Deli, 422 Detroit St., Ann Arbor, Mich 48103 (phone:734-663-3354).
                  Message 8 of 20 , Jan 18, 2005
                    Garum or colatura made in Italy is available (the last time I checked) from Zingerman's Deli, 422 Detroit St., Ann Arbor, Mich 48103 (phone:734-663-3354). Zingerman's does a huge mail-order business. The only problem is price. As I recall it's about $15.00 for a twelve-ounce bottle. A like amount of Asian fish sauce can be bought in an Asian grocery for about 75 cents.
                    Phil
                  • Richard Cook
                    Garum or liquamen was not gross . People don t eat things they think are gross. Fish sauce/liquamen on its own is not a particularly pleasent flavour. If
                    Message 9 of 20 , Jan 18, 2005
                      " Garum or liquamen was not 'gross'. People don't eat things they think are
                      gross."


                      Fish sauce/liquamen on its own is not a particularly pleasent flavour. If
                      you look at Thai recipies, sugar seems to always be used alongside fish
                      sauce this is because they bring a balance. Likewise honey appears
                      alongside liquamen, because these too balance.

                      Richard C


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • lilinah@earthlink.net
                      ... Well, i suppose it depends on your personal taste and your experience. I do not agree that Thai fish sauce is not a particularly pleasent flavour . I
                      Message 10 of 20 , Jan 19, 2005
                        "Richard Cook" <richard_cook@...> wrote:
                        >>Garum or liquamen was not 'gross'. People don't eat things they
                        >>think are gross.
                        >
                        >Fish sauce/liquamen on its own is not a particularly pleasent flavour. If
                        >you look at Thai recipies, sugar seems to always be used alongside fish
                        >sauce this is because they bring a balance. Likewise honey appears
                        >alongside liquamen, because these too balance.

                        Well, i suppose it depends on your personal taste and your experience.

                        I do not agree that Thai fish sauce "is not a particularly pleasent
                        flavour". I enjoy the taste a great deal. I often ask for more when
                        i'm in a Thai restaurant. Some dishes need more, in my opinion - it's
                        obvious that Thai food is toned down in US restaurants from what it
                        is in Thailand. (i know folks on this list are in many other
                        countries, but my only experience with Thai restaurant food is in the
                        US)

                        And when talking about balance in Thai food, don't forget the sour,
                        which is an important flavor in Thai food, coming from either vinegar
                        or citrus juice (in the US lemon or lime, but in Thailand they have
                        their own local citrus fruits).

                        Some dishes lean more one way than another. There are savory dishes
                        that use fish sauce and no sweetening or souring agent, usually meat
                        dishes, often including ginger and garlic. Some noodle dishes, such
                        as Mee Grob, blend sweet and salty. The ones that most often balance
                        the three are "salads" which often have a balance among salty
                        provided by the fish sauce, sweet provided by sugar (but i love
                        creamy palm sugar, mmm-mmm-mmm), and sour (vinegar or citrus). These
                        "salads" also include plenty of fresh hot chilis and strongly
                        flavored fresh green herbs such as mint and cilantro (coriander herb).

                        Roman food doesn't seem to favor sour as much as Thai food does. But
                        it features a great deal of bitter by using rue and some of other
                        herbs, such as lovage, which, while not as bitter as rue, does have
                        bitter tones.

                        I find that Thai fish sauce is more than just salty or "unpleasant".
                        It adds a "meaty" quality (the Japanese include this as one of the
                        basic flavors, along with salty, sweet, sour, and bitter, but i've
                        forgotten their word). And it has a slight sour quality. I would
                        imagine that Roman garum was also a complex flavoring.

                        Anahita
                        I love anchovies, and squeeze anchovy paste onto my (canned) tuna.
                        (and i've never seen a pizza in the US with 1/2 lb of anchovies on it
                        - usually they're more like decoration). But anchovies do feature on
                        French pizza (i lived in Southern France for a year and often bought
                        those cold slabs of bread with tomato paste, anchovies, etc.)
                      • RM
                        Hi! As far as I know from the recipes (one of garum is found in the Geoponika) it is nearly identical to the Vientnamese fish sauce Nuoc Mam (please have a
                        Message 11 of 20 , Jan 22, 2005
                          Hi!

                          As far as I know from the recipes (one of garum is found in the Geoponika)
                          it is nearly identical to the Vientnamese fish sauce "Nuoc Mam" (please have
                          a look here: http://www.vietmedia.com/culture/?L=fishsauce.html or elsewhere
                          ...).

                          It's hard to deduce from the ancient texts if liquamen and garum were really
                          identical since Apicius is the first and nearly the only author who uses
                          "liquamen" instead of "garum". But he prepares "ofellas garatas" with one
                          pound of liquamen. So at least "liquamen" was a certain quality of "garum"
                          (the finest?).

                          Best regards

                          RM

                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: <pmzaret@...>
                          To: <Apicius@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 9:08 PM
                          Subject: Re: [Apicius] Garum?


                          >
                          > Garum or colatura made in Italy is available (the last time I checked)
                          from Zingerman's Deli, 422 Detroit St., Ann Arbor, Mich 48103
                          (phone:734-663-3354). Zingerman's does a huge mail-order business. The only
                          problem is price. As I recall it's about $15.00 for a twelve-ounce bottle. A
                          like amount of Asian fish sauce can be bought in an Asian grocery for about
                          75 cents.
                          > Phil
                          >
                          >
                          >
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                        • Richard Cook
                          Am I right in saying that the fork was not used in the 1st century by the Romans? The only two finds I m aware of is a tiny brass/bronze fork in the Cheltenham
                          Message 12 of 20 , Jan 24, 2005
                            Am I right in saying that the fork was not used in the 1st century by the
                            Romans?

                            The only two finds I'm aware of is a tiny brass/bronze fork in the
                            Cheltenham Museum, England that was probably for cosmetic use (it is
                            suggested it was for combing the eyebrows!) And a 'swiss army knife' type
                            implement that included a fork (don't know where the original as this was a
                            replica.

                            The question arises following difficulties encountered when carving a large
                            joint of meat. if the carcing fork did not excist how did they keep the
                            meat still when carving?

                            Richard C


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • pmzaret@aol.com
                            This is a guess: For raw meat, it was obviously held with the bare hand. For hot cooked meat, a cloth could have been a buffer or a second knife (after all, a
                            Message 13 of 20 , Jan 24, 2005
                              This is a guess: For raw meat, it was obviously held with the bare hand. For hot cooked meat, a cloth could have been a buffer or a second knife (after all, a fork is just a knife with two or more blades).
                              Phil Z
                            • Warrior Chef
                              Kitchen forks trace their origins back to the time of the Greeks. The forks were fairly large with two tines that aided in the carving and serving of meat. The
                              Message 14 of 20 , Jan 24, 2005
                                Kitchen forks trace their origins back to the time of the Greeks.

                                The forks were fairly large with two tines that aided in the carving and serving of meat. The tines prevented meat from twisting or moving during carving and allowed food to slide off more easily than it would with a knife.

                                By the 7th Century CE, rthe oyal courts of the Middle East began using forks at the table. From about the 10th through the 13th Centuries, forks were fairly common among the wealthy in Byzantium, and in the 11th Century, a Byzantine wife of a Doge of Venice brought forks to Italy. It was slow to spread Westward.



                                ----- Original Message -----

                                From: Richard Cook
                                To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 11:20 AM
                                Subject: [Apicius] The (carving) fork


                                Am I right in saying that the fork was not used in the 1st century by the
                                Romans?

                                The only two finds I'm aware of is a tiny brass/bronze fork in the
                                Cheltenham Museum, England that was probably for cosmetic use (it is
                                suggested it was for combing the eyebrows!) And a 'swiss army knife' type
                                implement that included a fork (don't know where the original as this was a
                                replica.

                                The question arises following difficulties encountered when carving a large
                                joint of meat. if the carcing fork did not excist how did they keep the
                                meat still when carving?

                                Richard C


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                              • dianaserbe
                                Hi Warrior Chef, Could I ask the source of your information? I would like to delve in a little myself. Thanks, Diana
                                Message 15 of 20 , Jan 25, 2005
                                  Hi Warrior Chef,

                                  Could I ask the source of your information? I would like to delve in a little myself.
                                  Thanks,
                                  Diana


                                  --- In Apicius@yahoogroups.com, "Warrior Chef" <warrior-chef@e...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Kitchen forks trace their origins back to the time of the Greeks.
                                  >
                                  > The forks were fairly large with two tines that aided in the carving and serving of meat. The tines prevented meat from twisting or moving during carving and allowed food to slide off more easily than it would with a knife.
                                  >
                                  > By the 7th Century CE, rthe oyal courts of the Middle East began using forks at the table. From about the 10th through the 13th Centuries, forks were fairly common among the wealthy in Byzantium, and in the 11th Century, a Byzantine wife of a Doge of Venice brought forks to Italy. It was slow to spread Westward.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ----- Original Message -----
                                  >
                                  > From: Richard Cook
                                  > To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 11:20 AM
                                  > Subject: [Apicius] The (carving) fork
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Am I right in saying that the fork was not used in the 1st century by the
                                  > Romans?
                                  >
                                  > The only two finds I'm aware of is a tiny brass/bronze fork in the
                                  > Cheltenham Museum, England that was probably for cosmetic use (it is
                                  > suggested it was for combing the eyebrows!) And a 'swiss army knife' type
                                  > implement that included a fork (don't know where the original as this was a
                                  > replica.
                                  >
                                  > The question arises following difficulties encountered when carving a large
                                  > joint of meat. if the carcing fork did not excist how did they keep the
                                  > meat still when carving?
                                  >
                                  > Richard C
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Post message: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Unsubscribe: Apicius-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                  > List owner: Apicius-owner@yahoogroups.com
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                                • medieval_man_inc@yahoo.com
                                  ... modern ... Greetings all... I have just joined this group... more on me later... I have found through many years of trial and error, that a asian sauce
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Jan 29, 2005
                                    --- In Apicius@yahoogroups.com, Joanne Shaver <merlinia@c...> wrote:
                                    > Salvete, All! Merlinia here.
                                    > I have Thai Fish sauce and Garum made from mackerel; neither of
                                    > them are either strong or pungent, more like soy sauce. I think
                                    > Worcestershire sauce is stronger, myself. However, I've seen some
                                    modern
                                    > recipes for garum that are pretty gross.

                                    Greetings all... I have just joined this group... more on me later...

                                    I have found through many years of trial and error, that a asian sauce
                                    "Noc Mum" is most likely the closest to Garum you will find, taste
                                    wise, it is just fish where as worchestershire is many other
                                    ingredients to taste. just my opinion. but I have used it
                                    successfully in periond cook ing for many years

                                    Xaviar

                                    http://www.angelfire.com/rings/medieval_man_inc/
                                  • pmzaret@aol.com
                                    I agree. I ve been cooking Roman recipes on and off for almost 30 years, and the fish sauce you can buy cheaply in Asian groceries seems to be the genuine
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Jan 30, 2005
                                      I agree. I've been cooking Roman recipes on and off for almost 30 years, and the 'fish sauce' you can buy cheaply in Asian groceries seems to be the genuine article. If you want variety, a good grocery will stock 10 or more different brands of fish sauce, each made from slightly different ingredients.
                                      Phil Z
                                    • medieval_man_inc@yahoo.com
                                      ... years, and the fish sauce you can buy cheaply in Asian groceries seems to be the genuine article. If you want variety, a good grocery will stock 10 or
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Jan 30, 2005
                                        --- In Apicius@yahoogroups.com, pmzaret@a... wrote:
                                        > I agree. I've been cooking Roman recipes on and off for almost 30
                                        years, and the 'fish sauce' you can buy cheaply in Asian groceries
                                        seems to be the genuine article. If you want variety, a good grocery
                                        will stock 10 or more different brands of fish sauce, each made from
                                        slightly different ingredients.
                                        > Phil Z

                                        wow have me beat...30 years... are you a SCAdian? or some other
                                        recreation group perhaps?

                                        Xaviar

                                        http://www.angelfire.com/rings/medieval_man_inc/
                                      • pmzaret@aol.com
                                        No, I m just old. I studied Classics in college, and some years later, I got into cooking - then I combined my two interests. However, I found it difficult to
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Jan 31, 2005
                                          No, I'm just old. I studied Classics in college, and some years later, I got into cooking - then I combined my two interests. However, I found it difficult to get other people excited about Roman cooking (surprise?), but I've never lost interest myself. The one thing I've learned is that, while other people's interpretations of the original Latin recipes are interesting, if you want to cook like the Romans did, learn as much as you can about the period and work from the Apicius recipes directly (in translation, probably).
                                          Phil Z
                                          Phil Z
                                        • medieval_man_inc@yahoo.com
                                          ... later, I got into cooking - then I combined my two interests. However, I found it difficult to get other people excited about Roman cooking (surprise?),
                                          Message 20 of 20 , Jan 31, 2005
                                            --- In Apicius@yahoogroups.com, pmzaret@a... wrote:
                                            > No, I'm just old. I studied Classics in college, and some years
                                            later, I got into cooking - then I combined my two interests. However,
                                            I found it difficult to get other people excited about Roman cooking
                                            (surprise?), but I've never lost interest myself. The one thing I've
                                            learned is that, while other people's interpretations of the original
                                            Latin recipes are interesting, if you want to cook like the Romans
                                            did, learn as much as you can about the period and work from the
                                            Apicius recipes directly (in translation, probably).
                                            > Phil Z
                                            I have found this with most non-cooks that use the old cook books.
                                            They use the redactions exactly and dont take into account each cooks
                                            taste. Even with modern recipes I only look at the ingredients not
                                            the amounts and always season to taste. Im sure you are quite the cook..
                                            One of my favorite Apicius recipes is a mushroom dish here it is
                                            with my scaled up version for feeding mass quanities.

                                            Mushrooms

                                            Boletos aliter:
                                            Tirsos eorum concisos in patellam novam perfundis, addito pipere,
                                            ligustico, modico melle; liquamine temperabis; oleum modice. (Apicius 315)

                                            #10 can mushrooms sliced

                                            Sauce:
                                            measure Reserved mushroom liquid. start with no more that I pint.
                                            Add/cup
                                            to taste pepper; fresh ground
                                            1/2 tsp celery seed alternate with or use Loveage; ground
                                            1 Tsp Honey
                                            1 Tsp Olive oil
                                            1 Tsp Butter

                                            Drain mushroom liquid and measure add measured ingreadents, bring to
                                            a boil, simmer and taste, alter ingreadients to taste, using
                                            additional reserved mushroom liquid. Thicken if necessary with corn
                                            starch slurry. Pan up mushrooms in pans and cover with sause, cover
                                            and hold in hot oven or over sterno.
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