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Re: [Apicius] Digest Number 797

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  • rahul shrivastava
    Thanyou all I belive I have got the light from where i can research on Apicius . I am a Chef in India and I love to learn more about cuisine out side my own
    Message 1 of 1 , Nov 16, 2004
      Thanyou all
      I belive I have got the light from where i can research on Apicius . I am a Chef in India and I love to learn more about cuisine out side my own country I hope you all are the source in this and would never disappoint me in that regard. Some one has mailed me a link in language other than English. This is a request that i can only comprehend English only for the time being and kindly bear with me.

      Culinary Regards
      Rahul

      Apicius@yahoogroups.com wrote:


      There are 6 messages in this issue.

      Topics in this digest:

      1. (no subject)
      From: sallygrain@...
      2. Re: Digest Number 795
      From: rahul shrivastava
      3. Re: Digest Number 795
      From: "RM"
      4. Re: Digest Number 795
      From: "RM"
      5. APICIUS
      From: sallygrain@...
      6. Re: APICIUS
      From: "RM"


      ________________________________________________________________________
      ________________________________________________________________________

      Message: 1
      Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 05:11:15 EST
      From: sallygrain@...
      Subject: (no subject)

      Hi all

      The edition has been culled from the two MS that survive , one in New York
      Academy of medicine and one in the Vatican. All the later MSS and printed
      books are based on these two. For instance the title De re coquinaria is not
      found in the two early MSS and was almost certainly invented in the
      renaissance. Consequently we will not use it. This is our basic method to take the
      book back to the original source and restore as much a possible the original
      readings.

      Where the text is utterly corrupt and this is the case more often than you
      would think we have attempted to restore meaning through a greater
      understanding of the techniques invoved and the internal logic of the recipes. I think
      we have solved many of the problems of interpretation that have dogged the
      text. But you must all judge that when you see it

      It will be out in the US How could we not?

      Sally


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



      ________________________________________________________________________
      ________________________________________________________________________

      Message: 2
      Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 13:01:56 -0800 (PST)
      From: rahul shrivastava
      Subject: Re: Digest Number 795


      hello every body
      does anyone know that are the cokbooks by Apicius are avalable online in Pdf format or not if yeas do forward me the links

      Regards
      Rahul

      Apicius@yahoogroups.com wrote:


      There is 1 message in this issue.

      Topics in this digest:

      1. Re: Apicius
      From: "RM"


      ________________________________________________________________________
      ________________________________________________________________________

      Message: 1
      Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 23:38:05 +0100
      From: "RM"
      Subject: Re: Apicius

      Hi Sally,

      the date of Apicius is hard to determine, indeed. I wouldn't call the
      Apician Latin "proto Italian" of course - it's just some kind of jargon
      culinaire. In most parts it is still good Latin. But I agree mainly with
      Brandt ("Untersuchungen zum r��mischen Kochbuche", Philologus Suppl. XIX, 3
      from 1927) who states that about 60% of the recipes have been taken from the
      original cook book by Apicius (he thought there were at least two cook books
      written by Apicius) and that the final version has been completed at the end
      of the 4th century. The last sure terminus post quem seems to be the
      "Concicla Commodiana" from Commodus who became emperor in 180. Well, I think
      it is not that necessary and not even possible to attribute to it an exact
      date.

      Best regards

      Robert

      ----- Original Message -----
      From:
      To:
      Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 5:29 PM
      Subject: [Apicius] Apicius



      Hi all

      re other editions



      [1] In French, B. Gu��gan Les dix livres d���Apicius (Paris, 1933); in
      Italian, G. Baseggio (Venice, 1852), P. Buzzi (Milan, 1930), of Book 10
      only, A. A.
      Del Re, De Re Coquinaria Libro X: Il Libro del Pesce (Milan, 1998); in
      German, R. Gollmer (Breslau-Leipzig, 1909; 2nd revised edition, Rostock,
      1928);
      E. Danneil (Leipzig, 1911); in Flemish, N. Van Der Auwera, Apicius De Re
      Coquinaria: De Romeinse Kookkunst (Brussels, 2001).
      This is part of a note in our soon to be at the printer edition of Apicius.
      I recently heard that Flower or was it Rosenbaum actually did a German
      translation though I have never seen it mentioned. It might be the one you
      mean
      or it might be the Gollmer one though i doubt it given its date.
      Re our Apicius it is so close it frustrating. We fully expect to hand it
      over to the publisher before Christmas. Late spring publish date. We only
      have
      the very sticky issue of the date to settle. The date of the text i mean.
      Apicius has been cited for years as a prime example of Late Latin ie a
      early form of proto Italian. We dont think it is at all and have to be
      very
      carefull how we justify this , as huge numbers of Latin schollars will just
      condemn us out of hand.
      all best
      Sally


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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      Message: 3
      Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 18:39:18 +0100
      From: "RM"
      Subject: Re: Digest Number 795

      Here is something:
      http://users.ipa.net/~tanker/apicius.htm

      Best regards

      RM

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "rahul shrivastava"
      To:
      Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2004 10:01 PM
      Subject: Re: [Apicius] Digest Number 795




      hello every body
      does anyone know that are the cokbooks by Apicius are avalable online in Pdf
      format or not if yeas do forward me the links

      Regards
      Rahul

      Apicius@yahoogroups.com wrote:


      There is 1 message in this issue.

      Topics in this digest:

      1. Re: Apicius
      From: "RM"


      ________________________________________________________________________
      ________________________________________________________________________

      Message: 1
      Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 23:38:05 +0100
      From: "RM"
      Subject: Re: Apicius

      Hi Sally,

      the date of Apicius is hard to determine, indeed. I wouldn't call the
      Apician Latin "proto Italian" of course - it's just some kind of jargon
      culinaire. In most parts it is still good Latin. But I agree mainly with
      Brandt ("Untersuchungen zum r��mischen Kochbuche", Philologus Suppl. XIX, 3
      from 1927) who states that about 60% of the recipes have been taken from the
      original cook book by Apicius (he thought there were at least two cook books
      written by Apicius) and that the final version has been completed at the end
      of the 4th century. The last sure terminus post quem seems to be the
      "Concicla Commodiana" from Commodus who became emperor in 180. Well, I think
      it is not that necessary and not even possible to attribute to it an exact
      date.

      Best regards

      Robert

      ----- Original Message -----
      From:
      To:
      Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 5:29 PM
      Subject: [Apicius] Apicius



      Hi all

      re other editions



      [1] In French, B. Gu��gan Les dix livres d�?TApicius (Paris, 1933); in
      Italian, G. Baseggio (Venice, 1852), P. Buzzi (Milan, 1930), of Book 10
      only, A. A.
      Del Re, De Re Coquinaria Libro X: Il Libro del Pesce (Milan, 1998); in
      German, R. Gollmer (Breslau-Leipzig, 1909; 2nd revised edition, Rostock,
      1928);
      E. Danneil (Leipzig, 1911); in Flemish, N. Van Der Auwera, Apicius De Re
      Coquinaria: De Romeinse Kookkunst (Brussels, 2001).
      This is part of a note in our soon to be at the printer edition of Apicius.
      I recently heard that Flower or was it Rosenbaum actually did a German
      translation though I have never seen it mentioned. It might be the one you
      mean
      or it might be the Gollmer one though i doubt it given its date.
      Re our Apicius it is so close it frustrating. We fully expect to hand it
      over to the publisher before Christmas. Late spring publish date. We only
      have
      the very sticky issue of the date to settle. The date of the text i mean.
      Apicius has been cited for years as a prime example of Late Latin ie a
      early form of proto Italian. We dont think it is at all and have to be
      very
      carefull how we justify this , as huge numbers of Latin schollars will just
      condemn us out of hand.
      all best
      Sally


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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      ________________________________________________________________________
      ________________________________________________________________________

      Message: 4
      Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 18:40:45 +0100
      From: "RM"
      Subject: Re: Digest Number 795

      ... and here you will find a huge link list:
      http://www.mittelalterlich-kochen.de/LINK/90englisch.html

      Best regards

      RM

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "rahul shrivastava"
      To:
      Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2004 10:01 PM
      Subject: Re: [Apicius] Digest Number 795




      hello every body
      does anyone know that are the cokbooks by Apicius are avalable online in Pdf
      format or not if yeas do forward me the links

      Regards
      Rahul

      Apicius@yahoogroups.com wrote:


      There is 1 message in this issue.

      Topics in this digest:

      1. Re: Apicius
      From: "RM"


      ________________________________________________________________________
      ________________________________________________________________________

      Message: 1
      Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 23:38:05 +0100
      From: "RM"
      Subject: Re: Apicius

      Hi Sally,

      the date of Apicius is hard to determine, indeed. I wouldn't call the
      Apician Latin "proto Italian" of course - it's just some kind of jargon
      culinaire. In most parts it is still good Latin. But I agree mainly with
      Brandt ("Untersuchungen zum r��mischen Kochbuche", Philologus Suppl. XIX, 3
      from 1927) who states that about 60% of the recipes have been taken from the
      original cook book by Apicius (he thought there were at least two cook books
      written by Apicius) and that the final version has been completed at the end
      of the 4th century. The last sure terminus post quem seems to be the
      "Concicla Commodiana" from Commodus who became emperor in 180. Well, I think
      it is not that necessary and not even possible to attribute to it an exact
      date.

      Best regards

      Robert

      ----- Original Message -----
      From:
      To:
      Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 5:29 PM
      Subject: [Apicius] Apicius



      Hi all

      re other editions



      [1] In French, B. Gu��gan Les dix livres d�?TApicius (Paris, 1933); in
      Italian, G. Baseggio (Venice, 1852), P. Buzzi (Milan, 1930), of Book 10
      only, A. A.
      Del Re, De Re Coquinaria Libro X: Il Libro del Pesce (Milan, 1998); in
      German, R. Gollmer (Breslau-Leipzig, 1909; 2nd revised edition, Rostock,
      1928);
      E. Danneil (Leipzig, 1911); in Flemish, N. Van Der Auwera, Apicius De Re
      Coquinaria: De Romeinse Kookkunst (Brussels, 2001).
      This is part of a note in our soon to be at the printer edition of Apicius.
      I recently heard that Flower or was it Rosenbaum actually did a German
      translation though I have never seen it mentioned. It might be the one you
      mean
      or it might be the Gollmer one though i doubt it given its date.
      Re our Apicius it is so close it frustrating. We fully expect to hand it
      over to the publisher before Christmas. Late spring publish date. We only
      have
      the very sticky issue of the date to settle. The date of the text i mean.
      Apicius has been cited for years as a prime example of Late Latin ie a
      early form of proto Italian. We dont think it is at all and have to be
      very
      carefull how we justify this , as huge numbers of Latin schollars will just
      condemn us out of hand.
      all best
      Sally


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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      ________________________________________________________________________
      ________________________________________________________________________

      Message: 5
      Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 13:52:19 EST
      From: sallygrain@...
      Subject: APICIUS

      Interesting comments about dating Apicius (which we would write in italics
      if we could to distinguish the text from the individual - a practice we have
      adopted in our forthcoming edition . .

      we doubt very much whether the original Apicius actually wrote any recipes,
      but are sure that his cook did, and knew what the old boy wanted served for
      dinner. . . the approach of the gourmet in Ancient Rome is as likely to have
      been a different from that of his cook as is that of the modern restaurant
      critic and the cook who gets hot in the kitchen! The attitudes which informed
      Roman snobbery on this point are well attested.

      That said, there seems no reason to doubt that the the recipes with the
      Apicius tag go back to him. Some of the other named recipes may be linked to
      individuals later than 180 - as late as the 350s - but there is no way of being
      certain.

      Re. the Latin, we agree that the language we have in the text is
      jargon-laden and we think it is a fine example of expert talking to expert in a kind of
      'code' which you needed at least basic training to understand. Much of it
      uses Greek terms in a way that a modern chef would use French. That said,
      there are many morphological and syntactical features which link it with Late
      Latin. The question is, are these due to a 'late redaction' or are they
      features which may be traced to an earlier period than Brandt said?

      Sorry if any of this has itself sounded jargon-laden . . . Sally's partner
      Chris is responsible

      best wishes to all


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



      ________________________________________________________________________
      ________________________________________________________________________

      Message: 6
      Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:20:55 +0100
      From: "RM"
      Subject: Re: APICIUS

      Well, if Apicius wrote anything by his own hand or not is hard to find out
      ...
      I am sure there was some publication with the name of Apicius on it in the
      1st century. Otherwise it would be hard to explain where Plinius (Nat.Hist.)
      could have had his knowledge of Apician recipes & methods from. On the other
      hand the original edition has certainly been changed a lot in time - at
      least once the edition was manifolded by dictating as we can deduce from
      some orthographical errors. Anyway, it's interesting to follow the destiny
      of the Apician book.

      Best regards

      Robert

      ----- Original Message -----
      From:
      To:
      Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 7:52 PM
      Subject: [Apicius] APICIUS


      >
      > Interesting comments about dating Apicius (which we would write in italics
      > if we could to distinguish the text from the individual - a practice we
      have
      > adopted in our forthcoming edition . .
      >
      > we doubt very much whether the original Apicius actually wrote any
      recipes,
      > but are sure that his cook did, and knew what the old boy wanted served
      for
      > dinner. . . the approach of the gourmet in Ancient Rome is as likely to
      have
      > been a different from that of his cook as is that of the modern restaurant
      > critic and the cook who gets hot in the kitchen! The attitudes which
      informed
      > Roman snobbery on this point are well attested.
      >
      > That said, there seems no reason to doubt that the the recipes with the
      > Apicius tag go back to him. Some of the other named recipes may be
      linked to
      > individuals later than 180 - as late as the 350s - but there is no way of
      being
      > certain.
      >
      > Re. the Latin, we agree that the language we have in the text is
      > jargon-laden and we think it is a fine example of expert talking to expert
      in a kind of
      > 'code' which you needed at least basic training to understand. Much of
      it
      > uses Greek terms in a way that a modern chef would use French. That
      said,
      > there are many morphological and syntactical features which link it with
      Late
      > Latin. The question is, are these due to a 'late redaction' or are they
      > features which may be traced to an earlier period than Brandt said?
      >
      > Sorry if any of this has itself sounded jargon-laden . . . Sally's partner
      > Chris is responsible
      >
      > best wishes to all
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Post message: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
      > Unsubscribe: Apicius-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      > List owner: Apicius-owner@yahoogroups.com
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >




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