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Tracta

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  • Medb
    Greetings, I m researching a roman dessert recipe (aliter dulcia- the one with nuts, passum, rue, honey, milk, and eggs) for an A&S competition this weekend
    Message 1 of 9 , Nov 16, 2004
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      Greetings,
      I'm researching a roman dessert recipe (aliter dulcia- the one with
      nuts, passum, rue, honey, milk, and eggs) for an A&S competition this
      weekend and am not sure whether I'm missing something in my research,
      and was hoping this list might help?
      According to the recipie translations I've been looking at, some of
      them (including Flower and Rosenbaum) mention cooking in pastry
      (which seems to be 'tracta' in the original Latin), however none of
      them actually say you need this as an ingredient. Is this a separate
      ingredient, or have these people made a translation mistake?
      If it is a separate ingredient, does anyone know what it's made out
      of and where I could get it?
      Thanks

      Medb ingen Dungaile
    • RM
      tracta is used quite often, mostly like: tractam confringes et ex ea obligas It seems to be just flour mixed with little water and not liquid. Best regards
      Message 2 of 9 , Nov 17, 2004
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        tracta is used quite often, mostly like: "tractam confringes et ex ea
        obligas"
        It seems to be just flour mixed with little water and not liquid.

        Best regards

        RM


        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Medb" <jkwyatt@...>
        To: <Apicius@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2004 4:10 AM
        Subject: [Apicius] Tracta


        >
        >
        >
        > Greetings,
        > I'm researching a roman dessert recipe (aliter dulcia- the one with
        > nuts, passum, rue, honey, milk, and eggs) for an A&S competition this
        > weekend and am not sure whether I'm missing something in my research,
        > and was hoping this list might help?
        > According to the recipie translations I've been looking at, some of
        > them (including Flower and Rosenbaum) mention cooking in pastry
        > (which seems to be 'tracta' in the original Latin), however none of
        > them actually say you need this as an ingredient. Is this a separate
        > ingredient, or have these people made a translation mistake?
        > If it is a separate ingredient, does anyone know what it's made out
        > of and where I could get it?
        > Thanks
        >
        > Medb ingen Dungaile
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Post message: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
        > Unsubscribe: Apicius-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        > List owner: Apicius-owner@yahoogroups.com
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      • pmzaret@aol.com
        Tracta was sheets (something like lasagna) of dried flour and water. It was broken up and dissolved as a thickener. The Romans had a wide variety of
        Message 3 of 9 , Nov 17, 2004
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          Tracta was sheets (something like lasagna) of dried flour and water. It was
          broken up and dissolved as a thickener. The Romans had a wide variety of
          thickeners, since their main method of eating was to dip (with their fingers)
          bite-size pieces of food in a thickened sauce. Runny sauces were just too messy.
          Phil Z


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • RM
          Well, it was not always really dry since Apic. 5,1,3 tells us to dry it before use: tres orbiculos tractae siccas et confringis And it shouldn t be that
          Message 4 of 9 , Nov 17, 2004
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            Well, it was not always really dry since Apic. 5,1,3 tells us to dry it
            before use: "tres orbiculos tractae siccas et confringis" And it shouldn't
            be that solid (not like lasagne!).
            Best regards
            RM

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: <pmzaret@...>
            To: <Apicius@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2004 1:47 PM
            Subject: Re: [Apicius] Tracta


            >
            > Tracta was sheets (something like lasagna) of dried flour and water. It
            was
            > broken up and dissolved as a thickener. The Romans had a wide variety of
            > thickeners, since their main method of eating was to dip (with their
            fingers)
            > bite-size pieces of food in a thickened sauce. Runny sauces were just too
            messy.
            > Phil Z
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Post message: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
            > Unsubscribe: Apicius-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > List owner: Apicius-owner@yahoogroups.com
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
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            >
          • Marco Berni
            The solidity of lasagna comes from the presence of egg. Take out the egg and substitute water. Also considering that we would not be talking of durum wheat
            Message 5 of 9 , Nov 17, 2004
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              The solidity of lasagna comes from the presence of egg.

              Take out the egg and substitute water. Also considering that we would
              not be talking of durum wheat semola but a simple flour and the texture
              would be much softer when 'fresh'.

              When dried however it would be quite stiff though not as brittle as
              today's dried pasta.

              Marco

              On Nov 17, 2004, at 2:22 PM, RM wrote:

              >
              > Well, it was not always really dry since Apic. 5,1,3 tells us to dry it
              > before use: "tres orbiculos tractae siccas et confringis" And it
              > shouldn't
              > be that solid (not like lasagne!).
              > Best regards
              > RM
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: <pmzaret@...>
              > To: <Apicius@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2004 1:47 PM
              > Subject: Re: [Apicius] Tracta
              >
              >
              >>
              >> Tracta was sheets (something like lasagna) of dried flour and water.
              >> It
              > was
              >> broken up and dissolved as a thickener. The Romans had a wide variety
              >> of
              >> thickeners, since their main method of eating was to dip (with their
              > fingers)
              >> bite-size pieces of food in a thickened sauce. Runny sauces were just
              >> too
              > messy.
              >> Phil Z
              >>
              >>
              >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> Post message: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
              >> Unsubscribe: Apicius-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >> List owner: Apicius-owner@yahoogroups.com
              >>
              >> Yahoo! Groups Links
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Post message: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
              > Unsubscribe: Apicius-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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            • RM
              What I actually don t understand is why they didn t use flour directly to thicken sauces. Eventually tracta as used by Apicius is a bit similar to how Cato
              Message 6 of 9 , Nov 17, 2004
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                What I actually don't understand is why they didn't use flour directly to
                thicken sauces. Eventually "tracta" as used by Apicius is a bit similar to
                how Cato said to prepare amulum (de agricultura XCVI / 87): "Amulum sic
                facito: siliginem purgato bene; postea in alueum indat, eo addat aquam bis
                in die. die decimo aquam exsiccato, exurgeto bene, in alueo puro misceto
                bene: facito tamquam faex fiat. ..."
                Best regards
                RM

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Marco Berni" <mberni@...>
                To: <Apicius@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2004 2:32 PM
                Subject: Re: [Apicius] Tracta


                >
                > The solidity of lasagna comes from the presence of egg.
                >
                > Take out the egg and substitute water. Also considering that we would
                > not be talking of durum wheat semola but a simple flour and the texture
                > would be much softer when 'fresh'.
                >
                > When dried however it would be quite stiff though not as brittle as
                > today's dried pasta.
                >
                > Marco
                >
                > On Nov 17, 2004, at 2:22 PM, RM wrote:
                >
                > >
                > > Well, it was not always really dry since Apic. 5,1,3 tells us to dry it
                > > before use: "tres orbiculos tractae siccas et confringis" And it
                > > shouldn't
                > > be that solid (not like lasagne!).
                > > Best regards
                > > RM
                > >
                > > ----- Original Message -----
                > > From: <pmzaret@...>
                > > To: <Apicius@yahoogroups.com>
                > > Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2004 1:47 PM
                > > Subject: Re: [Apicius] Tracta
                > >
                > >
                > >>
                > >> Tracta was sheets (something like lasagna) of dried flour and water.
                > >> It
                > > was
                > >> broken up and dissolved as a thickener. The Romans had a wide variety
                > >> of
                > >> thickeners, since their main method of eating was to dip (with their
                > > fingers)
                > >> bite-size pieces of food in a thickened sauce. Runny sauces were just
                > >> too
                > > messy.
                > >> Phil Z
                > >>
                > >>
                > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >>
                > >>
                > >>
                > >>
                > >> Post message: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
                > >> Unsubscribe: Apicius-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > >> List owner: Apicius-owner@yahoogroups.com
                > >>
                > >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                > >>
                > >>
                > >>
                > >>
                > >>
                > >>
                > >>
                > >>
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Post message: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
                > > Unsubscribe: Apicius-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > > List owner: Apicius-owner@yahoogroups.com
                > >
                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Post message: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
                > Unsubscribe: Apicius-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > List owner: Apicius-owner@yahoogroups.com
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
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              • pmzaret@aol.com
                The Romans had storage problems just as we do. Flour, though it appears dry, has some moisture, which can lead to spoilage, and is often infested by little
                Message 7 of 9 , Nov 17, 2004
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                  The Romans had storage problems just as we do. Flour, though it appears dry,
                  has some moisture, which can lead to spoilage, and is often infested by little
                  mites. Rock hard crackers - like hard tack - that have been dried and
                  redried, and stored in a tight container, can resist the forces of nature for quite a
                  while.
                  Phil Z


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • ranvaig@columbus.rr.com
                  ... (which seems to be tracta in the original Latin), You might find this article useful, Ranvaig
                  Message 8 of 9 , Nov 18, 2004
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                    >
                    >According to the recipie translations I've been looking at, some of
                    >them (including Flower and Rosenbaum) mention cooking in pastry
                    (which seems to be 'tracta' in the original Latin),

                    You might find this article useful,
                    Ranvaig

                    http://www.ieha.asso.fr/revue_food_history/sommaires_et_resumes_d_articles/the_debate_about_ancient_tracta_evidence_from_the_talmud_article208.html
                    THE DEBATE ABOUT ANCIENT TRACTA : EVIDENCE FROM THE TALMUD
                  • ranvaig@columbus.rr.com
                    ... Also in modern Greek cooking they use trahana a dried fermented dough with milk and eggs. I ve been kicking in the back corners of my brain for this
                    Message 9 of 9 , Nov 18, 2004
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                      >
                      >According to the recipie translations I've been looking at, some of
                      >them (including Flower and Rosenbaum) mention cooking in pastry
                      >(which seems to be 'tracta' in the original Latin),

                      Also in modern Greek cooking they use "trahana" a dried fermented
                      dough with milk and eggs. I've been kicking in the back corners of
                      my brain for this name since you posted... I knew it was somewhat
                      similar. I don't know if it is related, but it does make me wonder.

                      Ranvaig
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