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Re: [Apicius] Apicius

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  • channonm@aol.com
    In a message dated 1/16/03 8:57:15 AM Eastern Standard Time, ... Can you give us the entire text and your current translation? We could collectively put our
    Message 1 of 25 , Jan 16, 2003
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      In a message dated 1/16/03 8:57:15 AM Eastern Standard Time,
      sallygrain@... writes:


      > I have a couple of problems with the text that i am seeking other opinions
      > on.
      > IV 4.1 Tisanam sic facies (repeated V.5.1) in F+ R. As it stands in the
      > latin it makes no sence. The lines "acronem coleofium ut bene tegature"
      > and the line "super coloefium acronem" are the sticking points. I want to
      > cut them??????
      > A couple of facts that will help. coloefium are bacon/ham bits, it is not
      > a
      > large joint. they are cooked for their flavour and are sieved out. Now
      > make
      > sence of it.!!?????
      >

      Can you give us the entire text and your current translation? We could
      collectively put our mind to it and give some opinions. This is fun stuff. :)

      Channon


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • mikulas4 <mikulas4@netscape.net>
      ... other opinions ... in the ... tegature ... I want to ... it is not ... out. Now ... stuff. :) ... On the other hand, the meaning could be large joints
      Message 2 of 25 , Jan 16, 2003
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        --- In Apicius@yahoogroups.com, channonm@a... wrote:
        > In a message dated 1/16/03 8:57:15 AM Eastern Standard Time,
        > sallygrain@a... writes:
        >
        >
        > > I have a couple of problems with the text that i am seeking
        other opinions
        > > on.
        > > IV 4.1 Tisanam sic facies (repeated V.5.1) in F+ R. As it stands
        in the
        > > latin it makes no sence. The lines "acronem coleofium ut bene
        tegature"
        > > and the line "super coloefium acronem" are the sticking points.
        I want to
        > > cut them??????
        > > A couple of facts that will help. coloefium are bacon/ham bits,
        it is not
        > > a
        > > large joint. they are cooked for their flavour and are sieved
        out. Now
        > > make
        > > sence of it.!!?????
        > >
        >
        > Can you give us the entire text and your current translation? We could
        > collectively put our mind to it and give some opinions. This is fun
        stuff. :)
        >
        > Channon
        >
        >
        On the other hand, the meaning could be "large joints" meaning knuckle
        bones. They yield the most gelatin, and should be cracked to two or
        three pieces. The same "large joints" shank bones contain marrow that
        provide rich flavour for stocks and soups. I don't know the whole
        sentence, or better the recipe, to support this idea.
        I am ready to help with any coulinary problems. I am working recently
        on book "Inspired by Apicius." Collection of recipes for modern kitchen.
        Caligula.
      • mikulas4 <mikulas4@netscape.net>
        ... kitchen. ... Sorry. I am here again. I found the two recipes you mentioned. I have the latin text and Vehling translation. Both recipes are for barley
        Message 3 of 25 , Jan 16, 2003
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          > >
          > On the other hand, the meaning could be "large joints" meaning knuckle
          > bones. They yield the most gelatin, and should be cracked to two or
          > three pieces. The same "large joints" shank bones contain marrow that
          > provide rich flavour for stocks and soups. I don't know the whole
          > sentence, or better the recipe, to support this idea.
          > I am ready to help with any coulinary problems. I am working recently
          > on book "Inspired by Apicius." Collection of recipes for modern
          kitchen.
          > Caligula.

          Sorry. I am here again. I found the two recipes you mentioned. I have
          the latin text and Vehling translation. Both recipes are for barley
          broth and gruel. Many European recipes for barley soup ask for
          knuckel. The only problem, that I can't explain is Vehling sentence:
          "...and strain into a pot covering the tips of the colocasia." It
          looks he had the same problem ( recipe 172 [2])

          Caligula
        • sallygrain@aol.com
          Hi all Can this be sent on to any medieval recipe sites that may be able to help me please. I have a question for you all re a deeply puzzling verb in Apicius.
          Message 4 of 25 , Nov 19, 2003
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            Hi all

            Can this be sent on to any medieval recipe sites that may be able to help me
            please.

            I have a question for you all re a deeply puzzling verb in Apicius. The refs
            are

            Bk2.2.9 'ossucla de pullis exbromas'. ' ......?chicken bones' then add to
            the/a? pot leek, dill salt when its cooked' etc... In a sauce for isicia.
            forcemeat

            Bk 6. 2.3 'rapas coque, ut exbromari possint'. 'Cook turnip in order that
            they are able to.........?' (in a duck and turnip recipe)

            Vinidarius 3 exbromabis diligenter, et in sartagine mittes. carefully
            .......and put in a fry pan. Refering to ofellae which is boned diced rib meat
            or belly pork.

            Anthimus section 3
            de carnibus vero vaccinis vaporatis factis et in sodinga coctis utendum,
            etiam et in iuscello, ut prious exbromatas una unda mittas, et sic in nitida
            aqua quantum ratio poscit coquantur...
            Beef which has been baked can be used (ie finished off) both cooked in a
            frypan and in a sauce, provided that, before hand or as soon as it .....? it is
            put in fresh water.

            This is a shity(?) sentence to translate anyway. I am using Grant as the
            basis but with my spin. Note vaporatis is not steam it is baked in an oven.

            So- The dictionaries suggest and Grant follows the idea that, as the Greek
            bromos is bad smell, exbromo is to get rid of or expell the bad odors. This how
            the word functions in the few late latin refs. In Anthimus the meat is
            therefore bad but why should it be? Non of the other types of meat are? The
            Apicius ref simply cannot have anything to do with bad food per se. Its a high
            status cook book, you start with the best. Turnips dont stink do they? How can
            the Vinidarius quote be about bad smells. what is going on here?

            I have an idea but I need confirmation from medieval recipe texts that talk
            about humores. I think the word means boil 'to remove the humores' Is
            there anyone with knowledge of medieval latin recipe texts who can identify this
            verb A Greek term ekbrazma does mean that which is thrown out by boiling and
            particularly humores.

            I hope there is someone out there who can help.

            Sally Grainger
          • RM
            Hi! In my Apicius edition I translated exbromare with something like to extract by boiling (pulli) and to take away the odour (rapa). Best
            Message 5 of 25 , Nov 26, 2003
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              Hi!

              In my Apicius edition I translated "exbromare" with something like "to
              extract <the gravy> by boiling" (pulli) and "to take away the odour" (rapa).

              Best regards

              RM

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: <sallygrain@...>
              To: <apicius@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2003 5:10 PM
              Subject: [Apicius] Apicius


              > Hi all
              >
              > Can this be sent on to any medieval recipe sites that may be able to help
              me
              > please.
              >
              > I have a question for you all re a deeply puzzling verb in Apicius. The
              refs
              > are
              >
              > Bk2.2.9 'ossucla de pullis exbromas'. ' ......?chicken bones' then add
              to
              > the/a? pot leek, dill salt when its cooked' etc... In a sauce for
              isicia.
              > forcemeat
              >
              > Bk 6. 2.3 'rapas coque, ut exbromari possint'. 'Cook turnip in order that
              > they are able to.........?' (in a duck and turnip recipe)
              >
              > Vinidarius 3 exbromabis diligenter, et in sartagine mittes. carefully
              > .......and put in a fry pan. Refering to ofellae which is boned diced rib
              meat
              > or belly pork.
              >
              > Anthimus section 3
              > de carnibus vero vaccinis vaporatis factis et in sodinga coctis utendum,
              > etiam et in iuscello, ut prious exbromatas una unda mittas, et sic in
              nitida
              > aqua quantum ratio poscit coquantur...
              > Beef which has been baked can be used (ie finished off) both cooked in a
              > frypan and in a sauce, provided that, before hand or as soon as it .....?
              it is
              > put in fresh water.
              >
              > This is a shity(?) sentence to translate anyway. I am using Grant as the
              > basis but with my spin. Note vaporatis is not steam it is baked in an
              oven.
              >
              > So- The dictionaries suggest and Grant follows the idea that, as the Greek
              > bromos is bad smell, exbromo is to get rid of or expell the bad odors.
              This how
              > the word functions in the few late latin refs. In Anthimus the meat is
              > therefore bad but why should it be? Non of the other types of meat are?
              The
              > Apicius ref simply cannot have anything to do with bad food per se. Its a
              high
              > status cook book, you start with the best. Turnips dont stink do they?
              How can
              > the Vinidarius quote be about bad smells. what is going on here?
              >
              > I have an idea but I need confirmation from medieval recipe texts that
              talk
              > about humores. I think the word means boil 'to remove the humores' Is
              > there anyone with knowledge of medieval latin recipe texts who can
              identify this
              > verb A Greek term ekbrazma does mean that which is thrown out by boiling
              and
              > particularly humores.
              >
              > I hope there is someone out there who can help.
              >
              > Sally Grainger
              >
              >
              > Post message: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
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              > List owner: Apicius-owner@yahoogroups.com
              >
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
              >
            • sallygrain@aol.com
              Hi can the member who was kind anough to send me his copy of the New York MS for our edition of Apicius e mail me please. I did have all yoyr details but
              Message 6 of 25 , Aug 26, 2004
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                Hi

                can the member who was kind anough to send me his copy of the New York MS
                for our edition of Apicius e mail me please. I did have all yoyr details but
                have lost them ????

                We are to hand over the text to the publisher very soon

                sally




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • sallygrain@aol.com
                Hi all re other editions [1] In French, B. Guégan Les dix livres d’Apicius (Paris, 1933); in Italian, G. Baseggio (Venice, 1852), P. Buzzi (Milan, 1930),
                Message 7 of 25 , Nov 12, 2004
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                  Hi all

                  re other editions



                  [1] In French, B. Guégan Les dix livres d’Apicius (Paris, 1933); in
                  Italian, G. Baseggio (Venice, 1852), P. Buzzi (Milan, 1930), of Book 10 only, A. A.
                  Del Re, De Re Coquinaria Libro X: Il Libro del Pesce (Milan, 1998); in
                  German, R. Gollmer (Breslau-Leipzig, 1909; 2nd revised edition, Rostock, 1928);
                  E. Danneil (Leipzig, 1911); in Flemish, N. Van Der Auwera, Apicius De Re
                  Coquinaria: De Romeinse Kookkunst (Brussels, 2001).
                  This is part of a note in our soon to be at the printer edition of Apicius.
                  I recently heard that Flower or was it Rosenbaum actually did a German
                  translation though I have never seen it mentioned. It might be the one you mean
                  or it might be the Gollmer one though i doubt it given its date.
                  Re our Apicius it is so close it frustrating. We fully expect to hand it
                  over to the publisher before Christmas. Late spring publish date. We only have
                  the very sticky issue of the date to settle. The date of the text i mean.
                  Apicius has been cited for years as a prime example of Late Latin ie a
                  early form of proto Italian. We dont think it is at all and have to be very
                  carefull how we justify this , as huge numbers of Latin schollars will just
                  condemn us out of hand.
                  all best
                  Sally


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Cathy Kaufman
                  Sally, Can you tell me a bit about how you put together the basic text for the translation? Did you use any of the manuscript from the New York Academy of
                  Message 8 of 25 , Nov 12, 2004
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                    Sally,

                    Can you tell me a bit about how you put together the basic text for the
                    translation? Did you use any of the manuscript from the New York Academy of
                    Medicine?

                    Cathy Kaufman


                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: <sallygrain@...>
                    To: <apicius@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 11:29 AM
                    Subject: [Apicius] Apicius



                    Hi all

                    re other editions



                    [1] In French, B. Guégan Les dix livres d’Apicius (Paris, 1933); in
                    Italian, G. Baseggio (Venice, 1852), P. Buzzi (Milan, 1930), of Book 10
                    only, A. A.
                    Del Re, De Re Coquinaria Libro X: Il Libro del Pesce (Milan, 1998); in
                    German, R. Gollmer (Breslau-Leipzig, 1909; 2nd revised edition, Rostock,
                    1928);
                    E. Danneil (Leipzig, 1911); in Flemish, N. Van Der Auwera, Apicius De Re
                    Coquinaria: De Romeinse Kookkunst (Brussels, 2001).
                    This is part of a note in our soon to be at the printer edition of Apicius.
                    I recently heard that Flower or was it Rosenbaum actually did a German
                    translation though I have never seen it mentioned. It might be the one you
                    mean
                    or it might be the Gollmer one though i doubt it given its date.
                    Re our Apicius it is so close it frustrating. We fully expect to hand it
                    over to the publisher before Christmas. Late spring publish date. We only
                    have
                    the very sticky issue of the date to settle. The date of the text i mean.
                    Apicius has been cited for years as a prime example of Late Latin ie a
                    early form of proto Italian. We dont think it is at all and have to be
                    very
                    carefull how we justify this , as huge numbers of Latin schollars will just
                    condemn us out of hand.
                    all best
                    Sally


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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                  • lilinah@earthlink.net
                    ... Whoo-hoo! I look forward to it! Will there be an American edition too? ... Even *good* scholarship can be controversial. All the best, Anahita
                    Message 9 of 25 , Nov 12, 2004
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                      Sally wrote:
                      >Re our Apicius it is so close it [is] frustrating. We fully expect to hand it
                      >over to the publisher before Christmas. Late spring publish date.

                      Whoo-hoo! I look forward to it! Will there be an American edition too?

                      >We only
                      >have the very sticky issue of the date to settle. The date of the
                      >text i mean.
                      >Apicius has been cited for years as a prime example of Late Latin ie a
                      >early form of proto Italian. We dont think it is at all and have to be very
                      >carefull how we justify this, as huge numbers of Latin scholars will just
                      >condemn us out of hand.

                      Even *good* scholarship can be controversial.

                      All the best,
                      Anahita
                    • RM
                      Hi Sally, the date of Apicius is hard to determine, indeed. I wouldn t call the Apician Latin proto Italian of course - it s just some kind of jargon
                      Message 10 of 25 , Nov 13, 2004
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                        Hi Sally,

                        the date of Apicius is hard to determine, indeed. I wouldn't call the
                        Apician Latin "proto Italian" of course - it's just some kind of jargon
                        culinaire. In most parts it is still good Latin. But I agree mainly with
                        Brandt ("Untersuchungen zum römischen Kochbuche", Philologus Suppl. XIX, 3
                        from 1927) who states that about 60% of the recipes have been taken from the
                        original cook book by Apicius (he thought there were at least two cook books
                        written by Apicius) and that the final version has been completed at the end
                        of the 4th century. The last sure terminus post quem seems to be the
                        "Concicla Commodiana" from Commodus who became emperor in 180. Well, I think
                        it is not that necessary and not even possible to attribute to it an exact
                        date.

                        Best regards

                        Robert

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: <sallygrain@...>
                        To: <apicius@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 5:29 PM
                        Subject: [Apicius] Apicius



                        Hi all

                        re other editions



                        [1] In French, B. Guégan Les dix livres d’Apicius (Paris, 1933); in
                        Italian, G. Baseggio (Venice, 1852), P. Buzzi (Milan, 1930), of Book 10
                        only, A. A.
                        Del Re, De Re Coquinaria Libro X: Il Libro del Pesce (Milan, 1998); in
                        German, R. Gollmer (Breslau-Leipzig, 1909; 2nd revised edition, Rostock,
                        1928);
                        E. Danneil (Leipzig, 1911); in Flemish, N. Van Der Auwera, Apicius De Re
                        Coquinaria: De Romeinse Kookkunst (Brussels, 2001).
                        This is part of a note in our soon to be at the printer edition of Apicius.
                        I recently heard that Flower or was it Rosenbaum actually did a German
                        translation though I have never seen it mentioned. It might be the one you
                        mean
                        or it might be the Gollmer one though i doubt it given its date.
                        Re our Apicius it is so close it frustrating. We fully expect to hand it
                        over to the publisher before Christmas. Late spring publish date. We only
                        have
                        the very sticky issue of the date to settle. The date of the text i mean.
                        Apicius has been cited for years as a prime example of Late Latin ie a
                        early form of proto Italian. We dont think it is at all and have to be
                        very
                        carefull how we justify this , as huge numbers of Latin schollars will just
                        condemn us out of hand.
                        all best
                        Sally


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                        Post message: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
                        Unsubscribe: Apicius-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                      • sallygrain@aol.com
                        Hi This is our list of presented books. Do we or you give the manuscript holding libraries their copy? Biblioteque Nationale Paris hold Vinidarius New york
                        Message 11 of 25 , Jun 14, 2006
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                          Hi

                          This is our list of presented books. Do we or you give the manuscript
                          holding libraries their copy?

                          Biblioteque Nationale Paris hold Vinidarius
                          New york academy of Medicine
                          Vatican Library
                          They all request a copy for allowing access to the MS

                          other wise :
                          Institute of Classical studies library senate house Malet st London WC1E 7HU
                          where much of our research took place - Sue willets is coming and is senior
                          librarian

                          Warburg Institute -Gordon Sq- (no its Woburn sq as I now know. Most of the
                          building is on Gordon) london WC1H OAB

                          Andrew Dalby - I want to inscribe though and as he cannot come - Mourine is
                          coming - Send me one and I will post it

                          Cathy Kaufman - same as above rearly - I need to inscribe so though it would
                          be nice to make use of your postage offer I dont see how it will work. She
                          did say she would come to launch but I havnt heard. She is coming to Oxford
                          so I dont hold up much hope.

                          We are also sending to Prof Jim Adams, Prof Barry Hall and a guy called
                          Larry in the US who lent us his copy of the NY MS years ago.

                          So.. We have 10 copies yes? If the MS libraries come out of our
                          allocation we have used it up already. You post the libraries and send me 5 copies
                          left over. Or 7 or 10 depending on your policy. If we have used are
                          allocation already please send 5 extra in any case @ £20 for us I imagain?

                          All best Are you coming to the Italian afterwards?

                          Sally




                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • sallygrain@aol.com
                          Hi all Our new edition of Apicius is technically out in the sence that I have a copy of it here. I do not think it will be distributed untill well into July
                          Message 12 of 25 , Jun 14, 2006
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                            Hi all

                            Our new edition of Apicius is technically out in the sence that I have a
                            copy of it here. I do not think it will be distributed untill well into July and
                            august on line or even in books shops outside uk but you can get it from the
                            publisher I believe Prospectbooks.com
                            On line the discount is phenominal for the publisher so i am encouraging you
                            to bypass amazon etc as they reduce the profits for the little man to much
                            in his and now our view.

                            I hope you like it - I do not think we could of said more or done more to
                            illuminate the text.

                            Sally Grainger



                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Tim Sharrock
                            On Wednesday, June 14, 2006, 11:26:50 AM, Sally wrote: [edited] ... congratulations! ... the web-site seems to be
                            Message 13 of 25 , Jun 15, 2006
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                              On Wednesday, June 14, 2006, 11:26:50 AM, Sally wrote:
                              [edited]
                              > Our new edition of Apicius is technically out in the sense
                              > that I have a copy of it here.

                              congratulations!

                              > I do not think it will be distributed until well into July
                              > and August ... but you can get it from the publisher I
                              > believe Prospectbooks.com

                              the web-site seems to be
                              http://www.kal69.dial.pipex.com/shop/system/index.html

                              > On line the discount is phenomenal for the publisher so am
                              > encouraging you to bypass amazon etc as they reduce the
                              > profits for the little man too much in his and now our
                              > view. I hope you like it - I do not think we could of said
                              > more or done more to illuminate the text. Sally Grainger

                              Decisions, decisions ... the discount Amazon is offering to
                              the customer is also very significant :( or maybe I should
                              ask my wife to borrow the ICS copy... though if that is the
                              same as the Roman Society Library it may go out to a
                              reviewer.

                              I look forward to reading it anyway!

                              Tim
                              --
                              Tim Sharrock mailto:tim@...
                            • jdm314
                              ... The actual URL for Prospect Books is, bizarrely, http:// www.kal69.dial.pipex.com/ Their US distributer is http://www.oxbowbooks.com . This site is
                              Message 14 of 25 , Aug 18, 2006
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                                Regarding Sally's new books:

                                --- In Apicius@yahoogroups.com, sallygrain@... wrote:
                                > I do not think it will be distributed untill well into July and
                                > august on line or even in books shops outside uk but you can get it from the
                                > publisher I believe Prospectbooks.com

                                The actual URL for Prospect Books is, bizarrely, http://
                                www.kal69.dial.pipex.com/

                                Their US distributer is http://www.oxbowbooks.com . This site is currently
                                offering a special deal "for today only" (I don't know if that's literally true or not,
                                but if you're interested I'd order it today just to be safe): you can get both of the
                                new books for a total of $75.00+s&h. This is a great deal! That's less than the
                                cover price of the more expensive one.

                                JDM
                              • Glenda Robinson
                                I think the for today is part of the title, not the offer. Certainly a great deal. And they have Bishop & Coulston s Roman Military Equipment from the Punic
                                Message 15 of 25 , Aug 19, 2006
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                                  I think the 'for today' is part of the title, not the offer.

                                  Certainly a great deal. And they have Bishop & Coulston's "Roman Military Equipment from the Punic Wars to the Fall of Rome" 2nd ed for $32 for the military minded!

                                  Glenda.
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: jdm314
                                  To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2006 2:09 AM
                                  Subject: [Apicius] Re: Apicius


                                  Regarding Sally's new books:

                                  --- In Apicius@yahoogroups.com, sallygrain@... wrote:
                                  > I do not think it will be distributed untill well into July and
                                  > august on line or even in books shops outside uk but you can get it from the
                                  > publisher I believe Prospectbooks.com

                                  The actual URL for Prospect Books is, bizarrely, http://
                                  www.kal69.dial.pipex.com/

                                  Their US distributer is http://www.oxbowbooks.com . This site is currently
                                  offering a special deal "for today only" (I don't know if that's literally true or not,
                                  but if you're interested I'd order it today just to be safe): you can get both of the
                                  new books for a total of $75.00+s&h. This is a great deal! That's less than the
                                  cover price of the more expensive one.

                                  JDM





                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Susan
                                  Thanks for the heads up on this, I went ahead and ordered both; that s a great price :) Susan ... From: jdm314 To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Aug 19, 2006
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                                    Thanks for the heads up on this, I went ahead and ordered both; that's a great price :)

                                    Susan

                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: jdm314
                                    To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 11:09 AM
                                    Subject: [Apicius] Re: Apicius


                                    Regarding Sally's new books:

                                    --- In Apicius@yahoogroups.com, sallygrain@... wrote:
                                    > I do not think it will be distributed untill well into July and
                                    > august on line or even in books shops outside uk but you can get it from the
                                    > publisher I believe Prospectbooks.com

                                    The actual URL for Prospect Books is, bizarrely, http://
                                    www.kal69.dial.pipex.com/

                                    Their US distributer is http://www.oxbowbooks.com . This site is currently
                                    offering a special deal "for today only" (I don't know if that's literally true or not,
                                    but if you're interested I'd order it today just to be safe): you can get both of the
                                    new books for a total of $75.00+s&h. This is a great deal! That's less than the
                                    cover price of the more expensive one.

                                    JDM





                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • jdm314@aol.com
                                    ... D oh, that was silly of me! JDM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Aug 19, 2006
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                                      In a message dated 8/19/06 2:41:16 AM, glendaslists@... writes:
                                      >
                                      > I think the 'for today' is part of the title, not the offer.
                                      >
                                      D'oh, that was silly of me!

                                      JDM


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